Fundamentalist Christians (ET) are freaks of nature

[Paul]

The ones who defend their beliefs to the death are so depraved.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm not sure if defending what you believe to the death makes one depraved.

[studier]

The ones who defend their beliefs to the death are so depraved.

Defending a wrong belief to the death is just a sad state of the deceived. Though dying for one's belief is noble, it is hardly a reason to condemn or promote the truth of a belief.

[Paul]

I'm not sure if defending what you believe to the death makes one depraved.

It doesn't. Defending ET to the death makes one depraved.

[martincisneros]

I'm less concerned by people who take their ET nonsense seriously than I am about the premillenialists that are starting to get into the Chicken Little routine again about the next U.S. president probably being the president during the tribulation, that Jesus could either come back by [or at least "rapture" Christians] by December 21, 2012.  Here we go again with the millenial madness thing that leaves a sour taste in the mouth of so many people about whether or not the return of the Lord is even a valid Christian doctrine because of the stupidity that people get into over date setting and false prophecies about the future.  I'm not calling the book of Revelation false prophecy, but I'm talking about vague passages that people polarize on a false interpretation of to scare everybody, raise a bigger offering, and supposedly "get people ready" by conforming them to their creeds and what they say are the social norms that people ought to abide by that the Bible doesn't even say anything about.  If Christian rock music, particularly some of the oldies like Petra's music, are of the devil, then I'm the first one that'll RUN TO HELL   So, give me a break and leave me alone about that!  There is a genuine beef that can be raised about some music, but sorry, the Beach Boys, Beatles, and Elvis aren't in that category.

My greater concern over that than about people taking their ET seriously is because then they'll try to use the coming of the Lord as leverage to force a lot of false conversions to Christ, because of their perversion that "if you're not ready when He comes, He's going to leave you behind" with the implication that according to their theology that you're automatically going to take their version of the Mark of the Beast and you're automatically going to be damned because of that for all of eternity.  Those misinterpretations and all of the Chicken Little-ism that easily accompanies it steals much of the credibility of anyone that's a Christian.  It can get so bad at times when these dates come and go that you've almost got to start screen printing T-shirts that you can wear everywhere you go that say, "Yes, I'm a Christian, but I wasn't one of the crazies that believed...." and then have a list of bullets that run down the shirt citing all of the crap that you never bought into....or got delivered of if you used to believe it, since most Christians have "started somewhere" when they embraced Christ and His Lordship over their lives.

[studier]

I'm not sure if defending what you believe to the death makes one depraved.

It doesn't. Defending ET to the death makes one depraved.

Absolutely, if ET is not true, then these men who died for such a belief are indeed depraved.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm not sure if defending what you believe to the death makes one depraved.

It doesn't. Defending ET to the death makes one depraved.

Absolutely, if ET is not true, then these men who died for such a belief are indeed depraved.

Would it be better to say that if they died defending a belief knowing it was not true, then that would make them depraved?

I am not sure if I could say someone was depraved that died defending a belief "I" do not believe as true.

[martincisneros]

  On a technicality, both those that believe in endless damnation and those that believe in the Universal Restoration are freaks of nature 'cause both beliefs are extremes.  A belief in the annihilation of the wicked would be more "reasonable," to the carnal mind, although it's the furthest, furthest thing from what the Scriptures teach.  And I'm not sure if any ETers have died for that belief.  There's been a whole heck of a lot of Universalists that have gotten killed over the centuries!  ETers that would gladly burn a Universalist at the stake, poison a Universalist, or gleefully see a Universalist either stabbed or crucified are what makes ETers peculiarly "freaks of nature." 

Because isn't the Universalist even believing in God's absolute best for the ETer? 

I'm not saying that there haven't been any ETers that have been martyred.  They've just never been martyred for that particular belief, as in the cases of missionaries that have snuck into Muslim lands or into India and have gotten clobbered for preaching salvation as only being through Jesus Christ.  It would wind up being a martyrdom either over monotheism and/or preaching that Jesus Christ was the only way to freedom, reconciliation, atonement for sin, remission of sin, and Oneness with God. 

But specifically for the ET belief, I'm not aware of someone that's died for it. 

Died from it, perhaps, as a poisoning of the blood, or the soul.  For a compassionate soul, an honest belief in ET because of the KJV is the burning flames of Hell for them unless they so compartmentalize their thinking that they're able to shield their minds from it when they're not evangelizing.  But that's more of a desensitization regarding the endless cruelty of their doctrine rather than necessarily a mental dissociation.

Does anybody know of anyone that specifically got killed because of ET?  Any stories of any of the Hellangelists having gotten their brains blown out for refusing to renounce their belief in ET??  Perhaps for refusing to renounce Christ, but I've yet to hear of a story over a martyr for eternal torment.

[martincisneros]

Paul,

If your comment about the Hellangelists was more about their belief that life begins where ET is known -- though they'll claim that it's where Christ is known, but excuse me, I didn't notice your Superman because of what you've portrayed as being bigger than Him in the end, where some lives are concerned! -- I personally have to believe it's more about being blind than necessarily hardened in heart.  I'm not trying to justify such a grave error that makes a mockery of so much in the character of God.  But Christians claim to believe in the Book, and unfortunately a lot of them haven't seen past the mistranslations that they've inherited.  What's the old saying about never attributing to malice what's easily explained by stupidity?

[studier]

I'm not sure if defending what you believe to the death makes one depraved.

It doesn't. Defending ET to the death makes one depraved.

Absolutely, if ET is not true, then these men who died for such a belief are indeed depraved.

Would it be better to say that if they died defending a belief knowing it was not true, then that would make them depraved?

I am not sure if I could say someone was depraved that died defending a belief "I" do not believe as true.

Want to read what I said prior to this?

Defending a wrong belief to the death is just a sad state of the deceived. Though dying for one's belief is noble, it is hardly a reason to condemn or promote the truth of a belief.

Now what does Scripture have to say about it?

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

So if, ET is not true, and they died for this belief then yes, they are depraved since they did not find it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, which denies ET.

[autoimmune]

Imo, God judges the heart and conscience of a man, not the correctness of the doctrine.  Millions were martyred in the first three hundred years of Christianity.  I doubt any of us knows how many of them even thought about UR.  As I understand it, Origen was the first to even write about the concept in the early 3rd century, so I'm not convinced it was a topic of general Christian conversation any more than ET was. 

They died because they refused to place Caesar/the world before the gospel--however they understood the gospel.

I've read that more Christians have died for their faith in the last century than in all time previous.  I'd wager that the majority of them believed in ET.

If I were to discount their deaths as the result of depraved minds, I'd be in no different position before God than they might be--gnashing my teeth and weeping at my ignorance of His Love for us all.

With God's grace I would hope I could make the same decision the martyrs of the last two millenia have made if placed in the same circumstances.  But, I also have to admit that I have no assurance that my small-t, personal scriptural truth is the same as God's capital-T, ontological Truth. 

If I died, it would be because I believed that my small-t truth was as close to ontological Truth as I could get.  I allow that same possibility for mistake (or accuracy) to those who believe in ET, and honor them for their willingness to place whatever they believe about God before their own lives.

ME

[jabcat]

.

Imo, God judges the heart and conscience of a man, not the correctness of the doctrine.

 

IMO, we walk in whatever amount of Light we've each been given.  There was a time when I, probably like most of us on here, truely believed ET was true...not because I liked it, but because that was all the understanding I had at the time.

I know...it's my nature to inwardly (and sometimes outwardly) ridicule those that are entrenched in ET and the institutional denominational system(s).  But guess what?  "But for the grace of God go I".  I'm no better or no worse than the brother or sister who really believes God will torment the unsaved forever.  God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, chose to show little old insignificant me.  Why me out of all the others?  I don't completely know for sure.  But He will also show them some day, and in the meantime, I'm supposed to love them, not judge them, and share the life of Jesus with them.  They are still my relatives, and I feel I'm supposed to fellowship with them on whatever common ground we share.  They are not the enemy.  The enemy is the adversary and my own sinful nature.  I can't change them, but I can present myself a living sacrifice to the Lord and He will help me relate to them as pleases Him.

God's blessing, James.

[autoimmune]

What a lovely application of Rom 12: 1-2, James!

Sacrifices were burnt, consumed in the flames.  Yet,as Christians we "living sacrifices" as this is being completed in us.  The more we are consumed, the more we live.  Without recognizing and "burning away" the old ways of thought and our reactions to people our minds cannot be renewed.  It's a hard process because we don't intend to put our brothers down when we disagree with them, but we do it so often, nonetheless.

As a child I believed in ET because I didn't know any better and it was what was taught me. By my early 30's, though, I couldn't accept it any more.  I ended up walking away from Christianity--at least as far as using it for a label for my beliefs--because I had such a hard time with ET and other doctrines that stemmed from it.  I think my feminist leanings had a lot to do with my developing theological beliefs, and the mother/woman in me could not conceive of punishing my child eternally and completely out of proportion for some thing they had done to displease me.

ME 

[Reverend G]

I'm less concerned by people who take their ET nonsense seriously than I am about the premillenialists that are starting to get into the Chicken Little routine again about the next U.S. president probably being the president during the tribulation, that Jesus could either come back by [or at least "rapture" Christians] by December 21, 2012.  Here we go again with the millenial madness thing that leaves a sour taste in the mouth of so many people about whether or not the return of the Lord is even a valid Christian doctrine because of the stupidity that people get into over date setting and false prophecies about the future.  I'm not calling the book of Revelation false prophecy, but I'm talking about vague passages that people polarize on a false interpretation of to scare everybody, raise a bigger offering, and supposedly "get people ready" by conforming them to their creeds and what they say are the social norms that people ought to abide by that the Bible doesn't even say anything about.  If Christian rock music, particularly some of the oldies like Petra's music, are of the devil, then I'm the first one that'll RUN TO HELL   So, give me a break and leave me alone about that!  There is a genuine beef that can be raised about some music, but sorry, the Beach Boys, Beatles, and Elvis aren't in that category.

My greater concern over that than about people taking their ET seriously is because then they'll try to use the coming of the Lord as leverage to force a lot of false conversions to Christ, because of their perversion that "if you're not ready when He comes, He's going to leave you behind" with the implication that according to their theology that you're automatically going to take their version of the Mark of the Beast and you're automatically going to be damned because of that for all of eternity.  Those misinterpretations and all of the Chicken Little-ism that easily accompanies it steals much of the credibility of anyone that's a Christian.  It can get so bad at times when these dates come and go that you've almost got to start screen printing T-shirts that you can wear everywhere you go that say, "Yes, I'm a Christian, but I wasn't one of the crazies that believed...." and then have a list of bullets that run down the shirt citing all of the crap that you never bought into....or got delivered of if you used to believe it, since most Christians have "started somewhere" when they embraced Christ and His Lordship over their lives.

It is kinda odd isn't it, that these folks want to set dates for the end of the world, or at least the ends beginning, when scripture itself tells them it cannot be foretold.  Even stranger, they will use mayan calendar predictions and such to bolster their claims, are these the same mayans who were forced to convert or be slaughtered?  And of course, false dates have come and gone so many times now that its absurdity is obvious.  I guess scripture WAS right.

I think that if anything is apparent, it would be that they may become part of the fulfillment of what has been predicted.  Many ARE deceived.  THEY are!!  As I see it, if and when all that is foretold happens, these folks will be carrying the banner of the anti-christ!!  Watching this scenario unfold is the one thing that keeps my interest in Revelations.

Like you said, they definitely do a disservice to Christianity in general.  Perhaps that is part of the grand plan?  The number of believers wanes, even many believers promote false doctrines, the snowball rolls downhill picking up speed. I dunno. 

I'd be the first to be condemned for choices in music.  I still like "devil music"  (heavy metal).  Funny thing is, I don't see it as all that different from some of the "hell fire" sermons" I've heard.  What we are exposed to, what we hear, is interpreted by out own minds, we can either recognize the evils inherent and use it as lessons learned, or allow it to warp our minds.  Then again...the beatles?  Didn't John Lennon have some really controversial things to say regarding himself and Jesus?  Guess we both are awfully lucking God is so forgiving, LOL.

[studier]

.

Imo, God judges the heart and conscience of a man, not the correctness of the doctrine.

IMO, we walk in whatever amount of Light we've each been given.  There was a time when I, probably like most of us on here, truely believed ET was true...not because I liked it, but because that was all the understanding I had at the time.

Titus 3:3-8
At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

2 Timothy 3:8-13
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Why is it so hard to admit you were once depraved and deceived? It still amazes me how much people who claim to know God, continue to excuse their flesh.

[jabcat]

I made no statement that I was never depraved, deceived, or that my flesh was excusable. 

I stand by what I said.  IMO, you, I, and everyone else understands only in part, though saved still have much to learn, and are in a process of being led into His likeness...some more quickly than others. I don't think I know it all or have yet arrived. 

James.

 

[B_T]

To put it simply:

ET is wrong.

Annihilationism is wrong because it has the same problem as ET.

Universalism may be wrong but only id there's no God :D

[studier]

I made no statement that I was never depraved, deceived, or that my flesh was excusable. 

I stand by what I said.  IMO, you, I, and everyone else understands only in part, though saved still have much to learn, and are in a process of being led into His likeness...some more quickly than others. I don't think I know it all or have yet arrived. 

James.

Actually, whether you knew it or not, you were excusing people for being in error. It is not an excuse to believe that just because a person has good conscious concerning something, that they are off the hook for their deception. The Light is in the world, there is no portion, as Scripture says, "none are without excuse." So let me make this clear, and I do this for dramatic effect to make the point so bold that it cannot be missed. A good conscious that kills babies, whether that person knows it not is still a murderer. A person in good conscious who supports a person who kills babies, whether that person knows it or not, is depraved. Think about it for a moment and understand how obvious it is even to those who believe in the Eternal Torment doctrine, that it isn't the truth. Most believe it because they are still in fear, or suffer genetic fallacy in which they don't know to follow their heart and believe anything that they are told.

It doesn't matter how quickly a person comes to that realization, or if they have yet arrived. Objectively, as B_T states, those who continue to justify eternal torment doctrines, are deceived and those who died for that cause, are depraved.

[B_T]

These people who have died for that cause have done that because of FEAR. Imagine that somebody is going to shoot you with the ultimatum: Give up faith or die! What will you do? If you die - no worry, you're going to heaven. If you give up faith you are going to hell.

[studier]

Imo, God judges the heart and conscience of a man, not the correctness of the doctrine.  Millions were martyred in the first three hundred years of Christianity.  I doubt any of us knows how many of them even thought about UR.  As I understand it, Origen was the first to even write about the concept in the early 3rd century, so I'm not convinced it was a topic of general Christian conversation any more than ET was.

You see this is where knowledge makes the difference between what is true and what is not true. Origen was not the first to write about the concept in the 3rd Century, he was the first to be falsely declared a heretic about it, in the 6th Century by a ruthless fear-mongering Emperor of Rome. Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation WAS and IS the truth, and was main doctrine of salvation held by the Church Father's, except a few...

They died because they refused to place Caesar/the world before the gospel--however they understood the gospel.

...If you would follow that up with understanding, you would recognize those who believed in Eternal Torment came from Caesar's camp and they forced the rest of Christianity at the end of a sword to submit to Ceasar's doctrine of Eternal Torment for those who deny the God Ceasar's bishops and popes preached. That God has persisted conveniently for political powers to manipulate the people, and those who follow such a doctrine are deceived.

I've read that more Christians have died for their faith in the last century than in all time previous.  I'd wager that the majority of them believed in ET.

If they died preaching hellfire and brimstone and threatening eternal torment to those who did not follow their God, they were and still depraved.

Here is a question I always ask Christians.

A) Do you think it is right to force people by the end of a sword or fear of suffering, to believe in the Gospel?
B) Do you believe it was right for Ceasar and his men, to force Christians to believe what he believed or they would be tortured or killed as a result?
1) Then why do you believe that God will force people by the end of a sword or fear of suffering, to believe in the Gospel?
2) Then why do you believe God will have those who did not believe in the Gospel to be tortured or annihilated as a result?

Almost all the time they will say "NO" to both A) and B) and therefore contradict themselves in 1) and 2). If they should continue in their contradiction, it doesn't matter what they preach and teach, it is not the Gospel that they preach but another gospel that isn't a gospel at all. This is a sign of a depraved mind.

If I were to discount their deaths as the result of depraved minds, I'd be in no different position before God than they might be--gnashing my teeth and weeping at my ignorance of His Love for us all.

This is not a rational argument or conclusion. You can discount anyone who died preaching a gospel of eternal torment, and it will not affect your position before God. In fact, Paul said if anyone brings another Gospel other than the one he preached (it was grace and mercy, aka universalism) let them be accursed! If you repented of your ignorance, then you should not be gnashing your teeth or weeping at your ignorance, you should be rejoicing in the Lord and sharing the Gospel so that they will not live depraved lives believing God would have killed them or eternally tormented them because at one time they didn't believe Him.

[Paul]

Glad you guys turned this thread into useful discussion 

[jabcat]

Craig, if you want to take this to the nth degree as apparently you do, then you may have a point.  However, I still say even you still only know in part and are still in a process of becoming, whether you realize it or not.  Understanding, being veiled and/or revealed is not all one way or the other, completely black and white.  If that's the way you wish to perceive things then that's your prerogative...what I find however (do it sometimes myself..hope that doesn't make me depraved  )is that usually creates conflict both internally and with others.

In some respects I think you and I are talking about slightly different things.  I'm not saying error is OK.  It needs to be repented of and changes made.  If you've read any of my posts you should know that.  The scriptures you quoted and the conclusions drawn may apply to the aspect of which you're thinking.  However, wrt the part of this discussion I'm addressing, IMO, they are s/w misapplied.  I believe many people that believe in ET are saved, in the process of being regenerated/all things being made new.  So to say they're still depraved, IMO, is not accurate or really the point.  These are not necessarily folks that are totally living in sin and the lusts of the flesh.  When I believed in ET (as well as many many people I still know), Jesus had manifested Himself to me, drawn me to His side, begun regenerating me...He just still had some things to show me, and still does for that matter.  Veiled on some things?  Sure.  Depraved and "as the faith is concerned, are rejected"?  I don't think so.  For instance, if God were to show you something and help you with it at some point in the future, and you paid attention and were changed,  I wouldn't say, well as of July 2008 Craig was depraved and rejected from the faith.  I would say "God worked with Craig, showed him some things, and as His child, brought him closer to what He wanted him to be".

Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.  It's all fruit, but let's make sure they match.  In essence, if I need to clarify my response to the OP...IMO, just because someone doesn't possess all correct doctrine at any point in time, doesn't necessarily make them depraved, a "freak", or the enemy.  Some of them may love Jesus with everything that is within them, and possess a better attitude and sweeter spirit than you and I put together.

[studier]

Craig, if you want to take this to the nth degree as apparently you do, then you may have a point.  However, I still say even you still only know in part and are still in a process of becoming, whether you realize it or not.  Understanding, being veiled and/or revealed is not all one way or the other, completely black and white.  If that's the way you wish to perceive things then that's your prerogative...what I find however (do it sometimes myself..hope that doesn't make me depraved  laughing7)is that usually creates conflict both internally and with others.

The topic of this post is, if you died (or willing to die) for the doctrine of false knowledge as evil as eternal torment, then you are or once depraved. I clarified also my position earlier, there are also those who are not depraved but deceived.

Depraved: made corrupt, wicked, or perverted.
Decieved: To caused to believe what is not true; mislead.

Whether veiled or revealed, it matters not; as I mentioned before. Your excuse has been that they are walking only to the Light they were given. I did not make this an issue of black and white, you again inadvertently did because....

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Those who continue to teach a God of murder and injustice (there is no justice in perpetual torment of anyone for any reason), and continue to do so are depraved or deceived.

Depraved and "as the faith is concerned, are rejected"?  I don't think so.

You must not have known was depraved was? Did any of us even mention "as the faith is concerned, are rejected"? I see your fear and the presuppositions of what you thought B_T and myself were saying from this non-sequitur response.

There are plenty of Christians, who have listened to the Spirit, and have searched out the Scriptures because they saw, felt, or knew it was just wrong. These Christians, found in all denominations, if you ask them where do you think people go when they die, do not say hell and don't even believe in hell (as eternal torment). They at one time were depraved and deceived, but came out of the darkness and into the Light.

just because someone doesn't possess all correct doctrine at any point in time, doesn't necessarily make them depraved, a "freak", or the enemy.

Really? So you say that a person who defends to the death a God who perpetual torments a person for rejecting Him, in their right mind, when it is so obvious if God is Love (which is attested through His creation and His Word), that He isn't. This is not just 'some' doctrine, this is an elementary doctrine of Christianity. Everything you believe has it's foundation on this doctrine perhaps you just don't understand the gravity of the situation.

There was a time Craig was deceived, but even from a child, he knew and felt that the doctrine of Eternal Hell and Torment, was wrong. It pained him to teach it, when people asked. In fact, in all his life, he only wrote one article on it and it was so depraved, that he could not teach it again. So yes, if I had continued to teach and believe in Eternal Hell and Torment, as mainstream Christianity teaches, I was and am depraved.

What is the fear of admitting this?

[Reverend G]

Just an odd thing I noticed last night, there was a guy selling "Bible Lessons" on TV late night, reading from a bunch of different scriptures.  I was half asleep, but I know I did hear him say while reading, something from scripture about "Christ, the Savior of some!!"  I could be wrong, it may have been "of many", or even "of the few", but at any rate, despite my sleepy state it caught my attention!!

[studier]

Jabcat,

One of those depraved doctrines which deceive many and make those who teach it depraved is the doctrine of Eternal Torment. I know for sure, without doubt, Universal Reconciliation is the truth. I have no doubt, with complete surity, Eternal Torment is not the truth. Those who believe it are deceived, and those who teach it are depraved, and are rejected as far as the faith is concerned they guilt and torment people into accept God only for the basis of self-preservation. That doctrine, and as a result, that religion is pretty depraved.

Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I disagree with your POV about those that have not yet been shown UR. I still believe depravity is speaking of those not knowing Christ, denying Him, not yet reconciled to Him

Yes, think about that for a moment. They do not know the true Jesus Christ, and they are denying Him. Even Jesus said to the Pharisee, who thought they know God, "You do not know God." In fact, he called them sons of the devil.

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

The Jesus Christ those who believe in Eternal Torment as the truth, is not the true Jesus Christ we know. Unless of course you don't believe in UR, and you believe in Eternal Torment then you can disagree with my POV since we don't believe in the same Christ anyways. If anyone believes that people are going to an eternal tormenting perpetual hell, they ARE denying Him and they are NOT yet reconciled to God. Do you even read yourself what you are saying? The very essence of ET, is denying Christ. The very essence of ET, is not knowing Him. Yet, you still cannot admit this.

In Grace and Truth,
Craig