Author Topic: Something to ponder  (Read 1025 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Something to ponder
« on: July 13, 2014, 04:29:37 AM »
For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.
(Deu 30:11-14)

But the righteousness which is of faith says this, "Don't say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down); or, 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)" But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(Rom 10:6-9)

Meditate on what Moses and Paul wrote, for the implications are huge, in my opinion, as to what is being said here. Look carefully at what is being said, and specifically, to whom it is being said, as well as what connections there are between these two sets of writings, as the latter speaks of the revealing of the former. Very much is this related to the RESTORATION of all things.

I see so much here, but I am only interested in learning what you all see. Please share if you feel inclined.

Ronen

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 09:09:00 AM »
To me, it looks as though Paul is revealing the Deuteronomy passage to be a prophecy about Christ, and fulfilled through him in those who believe.

Online WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12954
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2014, 02:04:02 PM »
Ronen it makes me think of an earlier post of mine:



Deuteronomy is Devarim in Hebrew.

Devarim  in Hebraic understanding means the "mouth" of  Torah; a summarizing all that has happened before in "the main body."

Another word for this book in Hebrew is Suf Debar last words.  It contains Moshe's last words, his farewell discourse and a song to Israel.
 
Agriculturally, Devarim/Deuteronomy means to point back to a food source, or head of the house.

Devarim is:  Dalet-bet-resh = Devar (word).  Dalet being the door, bet/resh is bar, the son. Debar, The Word is the door through which the Son comes.

Deuteronomy = Devarim = The Word is the door through which the Son comes.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2014, 02:36:24 PM »
So one of the connections I take from the sum of what you both wrote is that the passage in Deuteronomy points to Messiah, and that the Messiah is connected to both the דברים (commandment) and דבר (word). The commandment and the word are one and the same, a form of parallelism, and Yeshua the Messiah is the connected fulfillment that Paul draws from the passage.

For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.
(Deu 30:11-14)

But the righteousness which is of faith says this, "Don't say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down); or, 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)" But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(Rom 10:6-9)

This usually ends up stepping on religious peoples toes, but when you look at Deuteronomy, what type of people is Moses speaking to? And where was the commandment, the word, who is Messiah, at?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 02:55:57 PM by gregoryfl »

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2014, 08:25:08 PM »
To me the prophecy says, in a disguised way, that Paul would later reveal to say that by faith the living Word will be within you and conform you to righteousness. The OT passage is written to Israel according to the flesh, and the book of Romans is written to and about the new Israel created by the Spirit. I see the Deuteronomy passage as the shadow, and Paul is revealing the reality in Christ.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2014, 08:57:04 PM »
To me the prophecy says, in a disguised way, that Paul would later reveal to say that by faith the living Word will be within you and conform you to righteousness. The OT passage is written to Israel according to the flesh, and the book of Romans is written to and about the new Israel created by the Spirit. I see the Deuteronomy passage as the shadow, and Paul is revealing the reality in Christ.
So you would understand Moshe's statement as prophetic for the future, not currently true for the people he was writing too. Am I understanding you correctly?

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2014, 09:01:34 PM »
Yes, like I said, Paul is revealing the true meaning of the prophecy to be about faith. He was very clear that righteousness and life did not come by the Law, but that the Law did not impart life, but concluded all under sin, so that the promise by faith (of the Spirit) might be given to those who believe . I think that is what Paul is revealing in his use of the Deuteronomy passage

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2014, 09:08:35 PM »
Just making sure I understood. Thanks.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3766
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2014, 09:34:03 PM »
..I see Moses..as a representative of Jesus Christ...the 'word/or mouthpeice of God" Moses ascended up

 unto the moutain to speak to God face to face..come down with 'words/commandments writ in stone tablets

  also,Moses as a deliverer type/likened to Christ..to deliver from bondage,sin/Egypt.............the Lord will raise

  up for you a prophet from among your people like Moshe......

      this all parelled with Jesus Christ...saying the whole law summed up in Love God with all heart,mind body

  and brother as yourself.

....the 'contention' over Moses body between satan and Michael also cmes to mind......


.......interesting that the law commandments/word of God written in stone tend to have the effect of hardening

 the heart[the way of a serpent on a rock]...but written on aheart of flesh'word of God come in flesh'

 tends to soften  man's heart...'love making the difference'  just some thoughts

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2014, 09:47:07 PM »
I agree. The commandments had a hardening affect to those who were carnal

Phil 3:6
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


That is pretty ironic. He was blameless in the Law.....yet persecuting the church. What was missing in his life?

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2014, 09:55:29 PM »
I believe Saul was missing the revelation of the word of faith, of Yeshua himself, in him, while he was persecuting the early believers. Father, in his mercy, revealed His Son in Saul when it pleased Him to do so. Until that happened, the light of the good news that resided in Saul remained in darkness, hidden by the veil which he wrote about in his second letter to the Corinthians.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2014, 10:01:17 PM »
I believe that the letter is not light itself but only points to the light who is the living Christ. "And in the scriptures you think you have life, but those scriptures speak of me." I believe a person only has light within him through faith. At the end of the day though, I agree with you that he was missing Christ within. That is something the Law could not impart.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2014, 10:07:19 PM »
I believe that the letter is not light itself but only points to the light who is the living Christ. "And in the scriptures you think you have life, but those scriptures speak of me." I believe a person only has light within him through faith. At the end of the day though, I agree with you that he was missing Christ within. That is something the Law could not impart.
I also agree, and perhaps need to figure out how to communicate it more clearly, that the letter is not light. Yeshua is the reality and the light of that letter which testifies of him. As a slight distinction, I do not believe he was missing Christ within, but the revelation of Christ within. And yes, the outward written Torah could never impart that revelation, but only testify of it. I believe that Deuteronomy 30 is one such testimony of it.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2014, 10:11:35 PM »
The reason I disagree is that faith and baptism in the Spirit is how I see the scripture laying out how we receive the Promise. The promise is Christ within us.

It's as peter put it: repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Nobody has Christ within them but by the Holy Spirit. Belief in Christ is a crucial prerequisite for receiving the Spirit.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2014, 10:18:39 PM »
The reason I disagree is that faith and baptism in the Spirit is how I see the scripture laying out how we receive the Promise. The promise is Christ within us.

It's as peter put it: repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Nobody has Christ within them but by the Holy Spirit. Belief in Christ is a crucial prerequisite for receiving the Spirit.
And I know, that would involve a whole separate discussion of whether Christ is in someone by a choice they make or has he always been there, etc.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3087
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2014, 10:20:02 PM »
...or by election, that Christ predestines, then nspires the choice and then enters the believer.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 512
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2014, 10:21:58 PM »
Ok.

Offline bushy

  • Full
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Gender: Male
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 03:39:32 AM »

I also agree, and perhaps need to figure out how to communicate it more clearly, that the letter is not light. Yeshua is the reality and the light of that letter which testifies of him. As a slight distinction, I do not believe he was missing Christ within, but the revelation of Christ within. And yes, the outward written Torah could never impart that revelation, but only testify of it. I believe that Deuteronomy 30 is one such testimony of it.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4255
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 07:48:08 PM »
I think Moses was speaking from the spirit "behind" the law, which is, "the just shall live by faith". To approach the law in humility and a sense of neediness for the help of god has always been righteous.

The stumbling block became that they pursued it in their own righteousness rather than thru the sensibility of justice, mercy, and faith.

Thus, the letter kills and the spirit gives life.

IMO, None of that has changed. The veil that covers the minds of those who read the law without the spirit of faith, also covers the minds of those who read the NT in the letter.

Say not who will ascend into heaven(to bring Christ down by acting as if anyone else could do it in their own righteousness)

Say not who will descend into the pit(as if anyone could come back from death on their own)

Speak from the spirit of faith, the faith of Abraham, who trusted God and it was "accounted to him as righteousness".

If faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness and he was, "the friend of God", Why did God put his children under the law? Why not continue in the faith of Abraham?

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.(promise that from Abraham's seed would come children as the sand on the shore, the stars in the sky... THE SALVATION OF ALL :o)

Paul says the law given 400 years later cannot annul or transcend the previous covenant of faith established through Abraham.

 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a ]tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Heirs do not work for an inheritance. It is theirs by birthright. They are free.

For the promise is to you and your children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself(Acts 2 first sermon on Pentecost- initial invitation:o).

"in order that in Jesus Christ the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith"

Also, something to ponder, until Moses gave the law, there was no law except the spirit of Abraham's faith and the law of righteousness displayed in creation so, the Israelites were not religious yet- at the point in which Moses gave them Deuteronomy 30:11-14

The spirit of faith in which we speak is the faith of Abraham our father and Jesus Christ the image of God, "the life I live I live by the faith of the son of God", a humble faith, meek and lowly of heart, full of mercy and good fruit.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 07:52:36 PM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3766
Re: Something to ponder
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2014, 09:23:53 PM »
EXCELLENT!