Author Topic: Jesus did not want some to understand!  (Read 677 times)

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Offline ed

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Jesus did not want some to understand!
« on: July 04, 2014, 11:48:23 PM »
Howdy folks,

I have been in discussion on another board and keep having to deal with this type of argument.

Using the just and only the Gospels  it is made to look like Jesus was purposefully trying to confuse people.

I explained that he was indeed keeping them from knowing things, in that particular time and for a particular purpose. Jesus had not yet been glorified and he was getting His apostles ready to preach the kingdom to the world.  The Spirit had not yet been given and Jesus was just one man, whereas in the near future, throught the Spirit, Jesus would be in those that believe.  No parables anymore.  The living Word Jesus Christ, was to be alive and ministering through the Body of Christ.

The basic message is seldom heard do to years of sectarian evangelism looking toward a future heaven.  The current ministry of the Spirit in the believer is almost wholly overlooked, and people don't seem to grasp the concept of Jesus alive in the believer.

Here is one of the verses that is used to say that Jesus puposfully confuses people.  Is he quoting from the OT and are the people in particular, Israel?

Mark 4
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

That is where my argument begins.  Any help on this would be appreciated.  I'm writing an essay and trying to be as clear as I can be.

Thanks,
ed







Offline ed

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 11:52:53 PM »
Here are my supporting verses that I have so far that Jesus was for a time keeping things hid, but the kingdom is to be fully known.

Acts 1
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
John 7
37.If any man thirst , let him come unto me, and drink . 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said , out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive : for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;because that Jesus was not yet glorified .)



John 14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do ; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do , that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live ,ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth , give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled ,neither let it be afraid . 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away , and come again unto you. If ye loved me , ye would rejoice , because I said , I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass , that, when it is come to pass , ye might believe . 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh ,and hath nothing in me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment , even so I do . Arise , let us go hence.
John 15
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did , they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law , They hated me without a cause. 26 But when the Comforter is come , whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness , because ye have been with me from the beginning.
John 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come , he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear , that shall he speak : and he will shew you things to come . 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine:therefore said I , that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted , and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear .

Offline saintwalee

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2014, 12:33:55 AM »
Amen Ed  :punish:

Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Flesh and blood cannot understand the things of the Kingdom of heaven.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2014, 01:15:29 AM »
Of course, from a UR point-of-view, I am impelled to see the people outside the house as being as much saved as the disciples inside the house.  Therefore, I think Jesus was making another parable, and the folks outside the house represented the people outside the city in the next age (or is it the age after that?). 
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2014, 07:02:33 AM »
My UR pov is that only Jews will be saved and that all will become Jews. Someone has to be a member of Israel or Judah to be part of God's family.


Isa 56:3 And do not let the son of the foreigner speak, he who joins himself to YAHWEH, saying, surely, YAHWEH separates me from His people; and do not let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dried tree.

Foreigners were separated from God's people but no longer are when they join God. ie become part of Judah or Israel. They are grafted in.


Isa 56:4-6  For so says YAHWEH to the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths and choose things I am pleased with, and take hold of My covenant:  I, even I will give to them in My house and in My walls a hand and a name better than sons and than daughters; I will give them an ever-lasting name which shall not be cut off. And the sons of the foreigner, who join themselves to YAHWEH to serve Him, and to love the name of YAHWEH, to be His servants, everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and takes hold of My covenant:


I think that's what's commonly been called 'grafted in'. Jews aren't grafted into Christianity, but the other way around.
So I see two statements: Everybody outside the house is doomed.
But.... everyone who wishes can get inside the house (and according to UR will)
An example is the mixed multitude of Exodus 12:38. Obviously they were pagans. But from then on they followed the Jewish ways.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ed

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2014, 10:59:55 PM »
Of course, from a UR point-of-view, I am impelled to see the people outside the house as being as much saved as the disciples inside the house.  Therefore, I think Jesus was making another parable, and the folks outside the house represented the people outside the city in the next age (or is it the age after that?). 

So it would seem.   :winkgrin:

Still working on my essay so if anyone has any thoughts by and by let me know.

Of late I am influenced by kingdombiblestudies.org

For me the kingdom is now.  I have no idea what the future kingdom will be, not real important to me.  People seem so use to arguing saved/not saved with a future heaven/destruction/life that the argument that I am attempting to make is like I'm speaking a foreign language.  The cause is the Christian religion that is broke into sects.

.






Offline ed

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2014, 11:09:08 PM »
My UR pov is that only Jews will be saved and that all will become Jews. Someone has to be a member of Israel or Judah to be part of God's family.


Isa 56:3 And do not let the son of the foreigner speak, he who joins himself to YAHWEH, saying, surely, YAHWEH separates me from His people; and do not let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dried tree.

Foreigners were separated from God's people but no longer are when they join God. ie become part of Judah or Israel. They are grafted in.


Isa 56:4-6  For so says YAHWEH to the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths and choose things I am pleased with, and take hold of My covenant:  I, even I will give to them in My house and in My walls a hand and a name better than sons and than daughters; I will give them an ever-lasting name which shall not be cut off. And the sons of the foreigner, who join themselves to YAHWEH to serve Him, and to love the name of YAHWEH, to be His servants, everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and takes hold of My covenant:


I think that's what's commonly been called 'grafted in'. Jews aren't grafted into Christianity, but the other way around.
So I see two statements: Everybody outside the house is doomed.
But.... everyone who wishes can get inside the house (and according to UR will)
An example is the mixed multitude of Exodus 12:38. Obviously they were pagans. But from then on they followed the Jewish ways.

WhiteWings,

I very much appreciate your hard work.

It appears to me as, everyone should embrace Judaism.  I'm sure it just appears that way.  Part of the error in understanding seems to be the audience that Jesus was speaking to in the Gospels.  The audience that I am speaking to is sectarian Christianity, and atheist.

A lot of what I have to do is unjewish the message so that people can embrace the man, Jesus Christ.  Maybe I'm going about it wrong, and time will tell.  At any rate thanks for you input.

.


Offline ed

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 11:17:16 PM »
Amen Ed  :punish:

Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Flesh and blood cannot understand the things of the Kingdom of heaven.

Thanks saintwalee,

I am trying to make the case for a logical faith.  Christians take "flesh and blood can not understand", to mean that I have the Spirit and they don't.  Atheist take "flesh and blood can not understand", as a logical fallacy.

 :Chinscratch:


Offline sheila

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2014, 01:14:09 AM »
 a time and season for every purpose under heaven.   it does not depend on the one willing/desiring

  but the will of God.  Jesus said...to the same one's He had formerly spoken..it is given unto you,but unto

  them I speak in parables...this 'I have many things yet to speak to you,but at present ye can not bear them."

    and they said...at present we know not what shall we be...we see through a glass darkly..but then

  we shall know as we are known


    God,who is love..does not place upon men what they can not bear....God prepares before hand...that

  where I am ye may be....progressive revealing..growing in wisdom and grace......

     since it is God that bears us..if He has not chose someone for His purpose at His time..they can not bear it

     to whom is given 'much'..much is expected..........

    not all were called to be disciples/not all to be priests,kings,elders,teacher's...........no-one can be

  more than what God has created him for/to be..........

....the11th hour worker...why do you stand here all day doing nothing...because no one has hired me.........

  come work in my vineyard.


 God has those He calls...and so does satan and men have their competing call's...'false apostle's,false

Christ's.,false religion, mockers[where is this promised  presence of his/why from the beginning all has

 continued/ blaspemers,false-accusor's".

  because God has not called them[give faith to] satan has hired them as mockers of God/deny....if you

 have the son ye have the Father.

   it is very easy for God,Jesus to make a believer out of an atheist...a visit is  all it takes..if they would choose  to.    so, it is not their will or choice.

  now each in his own order..........man bears the image of the corrupt one[faithless] and the image of the incorrupt one....

  ye can do nothing of yourselves...ye must remain in Him[vine/branches] surely if those with faith[in Him]

can do nothing of themselves...faithless men can not either!!

 say an atheist joins the church,get's baptized,gives gifts of mercy,obeys Jesus commands....anything not of faith is a sin...his worship is vain..for it is not of faith.   I actually heard of a man in a congregation that did
this very thing,married a believing sister,baptized,joined,attended etc.

 Then when he told her he wanted to try something else and was tired of that 'lifestyle'..that he never ever even believed it,any of it,or God or faith etc .

  we can not give someone faith..we can only testify to ours,we can not make somene believe truth,we can only testify to it...GOD PLANTS,GOD WATERS GOD MAKES IT GROW.


...ps...when my teenage grand-daughter started voicing again and again..that she  did not believe in God

  my thought was 'you protest overmuch"  But what I said to her was this.  Well, I'm not overly concerned

about it,He will make a believer out of you..when you see Him and you hear him....then you'll change

your mind.   then I chuckled at the thought of her reaction.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jesus did not want some to understand!
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2014, 05:48:24 AM »
I love the parable of the workers in the field for that reason. The ones who worked through the heat of the day were outraged that the 11th hour servants received the same pay. "Who has known the mind of the Lord, Who has given to Him that he should repay. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things".

As in the parable of the prodigal son, the "righteous son" incensed at his Father's graciousness to the returning prodigal. "So intent upon what you should receive, are you"(says Yoda LOL)

Rejoicing at whatever another receives regardless of their past or present condition is more like the Father, who reaps where He sows not and sows where He wills, "So much more gracious, you should be"(Yoda knows LOLOL)  :laugh:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com