Jesus ate with sinners, then what?

[Deena]

I love that Jesus ate/fellowshipped with despised sinners, but what happened to them later? Did they quit being "sinners", quit their notorios lifestyles? Did the woman at the well get her own apartment? Did the prodigal quit all his vices? Did the tax collector quit his job? I wonder... Or is it simply He knows what they are, what they will continue to be and loves them anyway. Is that the message? Is it that Jesus didn't eat with them to fix them, but to love them? I want Jesus to fix me, but perhaps I am missing the message.

[Ross]

He knows what they are...
While we were sinners Christ died for us.
The key seems to be that we are saved by Christ and His faith so that we will all be one in Christ
Our father is the one who makes us grow and we are all individuals of the same mega family.
Paul says that he did not come to convince people with words[1 Cor 1;17'.
" We proclaim a Christ who was crucified." [1 Cor 1;23]
Rom 12;2 " Do not be conformed to this age but be transformed by the renwing of your mind to the end you may be proving what is the thing willed by God, the good and acceptable and perfect."
The simplicity of the statement that we are children of God because of what Christ has done seems to inspire the desire to get to know our Father personally above our experiences with our dads. That is an on-going development through the things we experience.
For you to even have the desire for Jesus to fix you seems to show that He is opening your eyes.
NO MAN will be able to compare to what Christ does for us.
Eph 3;18 " In order that YOU may be mighty enough to grasp firmly, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
to GET TO KNOW the knowledge surpassing love of the Christ."

[lomarah]

Maybe the fixing is through the loving?

[shawn]

He knows what they are...
While we were sinners Christ died for us.
The key seems to be that we are saved by Christ and His faith so that we will all be one in Christ
Our father is the one who makes us grow and we are all individuals of the same mega family.
Paul says that he did not come to convince people with words[1 Cor 1;17'.
" We proclaim a Christ who was crucified." [1 Cor 1;23]
Rom 12;2 " Do not be conformed to this age but be transformed by the renwing of your mind to the end you may be proving what is the thing willed by God, the good and acceptable and perfect."
The simplicity of the statement that we are children of God because of what Christ has done seems to inspire the desire to get to know our Father personally above our experiences with our dads. That is an on-going development through the things we experience.
For you to even have the desire for Jesus to fix you seems to show that He is opening your eyes.
NO MAN will be able to compare to what Christ does for us.
Eph 3;18 " In order that YOU may be mighty enough to grasp firmly, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
to GET TO KNOW the knowledge surpassing love of the Christ."

Ross, just nailed it.  I see being freed from the flesh, vices, sin etc as a journey...a process.  I don't believe most of us have an experience then are just free.  It certainly hasn't been that way in my life.  What I know is this...the harder I try...the more I fail.  I have proven that to myself.  But, when I focus my eyes on Him, the flesh just has less of a pull on me.  I am convinced that relationship is the vehicle of sanctification...and this process happens in spite of us...not because of us.

The challenge is accepting God's agape love for us....while we are still dirty and messy.  We struggle living in His love because we feel like we need to earn it.  We don't need to earn anything...it's ours.  Just live in it, accept it, embrace it, and thank God for his magnificant grace and mercy.  Do this daily, living in it.

So the answer to the orginal question is...I believe these people had an experience with Christ then entered into a process.  I believe some behaviors may have immediately changed in some...and others maybe not.  Isn't this the case with most of us?  I always hear a select few that state they were immediately liberated...but I don't believe that to be the case for the majority of us.

[shawn]

Maybe the fixing is through the loving?

Love is indeed the vehicle for a change of heart.  Behaviors follow a change within us.

[sheila]

we love Him because He loved us first...He had to show us what love was I guess. Love hopes all things,beleives all things...

     .....does not keep records of any offense......

    Love is the perfect[ion] bond of union......Love is the BOOK OF LIFE CONTAINING THE NAMES OF ALL MANKIND MADE NEW IN CHRIST

   books are opened and judgement decreed for things done in the flesh......all sin in flesh is condemned.  Father only opens the books of judgement

   to those who try and boast in their flesh.. or are in a state of unforgiveness of someone who sinned against them

   .He shows them their sin speedily..and they are silenced.But,a new name is written for them in the Book of Life..a new spirit is put in them

   a new heart and mind..Contrite and humbled..they accept gladly the free gift...and leave off the foolishnessd of boasting in their flesh.


     It is not the healthy that need a physician....all the sin-sick children of Adam do.

[lomarah]

Sheila so good to see you on here! I love reading your posts. 

[sheila]

 ...He clothes the naked with a garment of Grace/Love[Lord,when did we see you naked?]

    there is One body,One head many members.   Unseemly[sinners] parts of the body are given more honour[grace]

     To receive the  free'Gift" of eternal life is grace and honour that Father and Jesus bestow on us[clothing the naked]

   look! the prostitutes and sinners are entering the Kingdom ahead of you.

     people with extreme sinful lifestyles often perish at a younger age[turn such a one over to satan for the destruction  of the flesh

   that the spirit may be saved] So next time you see a heroin prostitute on the street and read about drug overdoes and early death in the paper..

  you can know that unseemly part of the body of Christ is honoured more abundantly with Grace.

     How are the 'unseemly parts more necessary?"   He who is forgiven much loves much.


       the shame of our nakedness..that is kept hidden..or covered or 'blotted out' if you will..by clothing...has to do with private intimate parts of the body.

   these very same body parts have to do with bringing forth life between husband and wife...as symbolized of Christ and His bride/church...

 

[jabcat]

His love calls to repentance and healing.


Mark 2:15-17 "And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

[Deena]

Sheila, that was beautiful!

[jabcat]

1.)  When talking about the body of Christ, Paul is first talking about spiritual gifts.  Then in I Cor. 12:13 he is clear who he is talking to.  He says "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body".  The setting is, these are believers, spiritually reborn, infilled with the Spirit.  Paul said not all are of the faith. 

Then in the same passage, speaking of "unseemly" members, he goes on to talk more about the gifts of the Spirit and therein draws this distinction - some members of the body have more "out-front", visible, "desirable" gifts;  while others' gifts are of service and support, "in the background", seemingly less important if looked on the surface and carnally.  However, Paul says every member's role is vital to the functioning of the whole body, none more important than the other in the church/body of believers.

2.)  I believe a separate issue is, as related to the OP, when Jesus spent time with sinners, His Presence was to call them to repentance and therefor heal them (the Great Physician, Mark 2:15-17).   

Blessings.

[reFORMer]

2 John (Concordant Literal)...
9 Everyone who is taking the lead and not remaining in the teaching of Christ has not God. He who is remaining in the teaching, this one has the Father as well as the Son.
10 If anyone is coming to you and is not bringing this teaching, be not taking him into your home, and say not to him, "Rejoice!"
11 For he who is saying to him to be rejoicing is participating in his wicked acts.

Sometimes the truth doesn't seem so simple.  Without a proper balance life can be lost.  Stay in prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

[jabcat]

sorry James, kept messing with this post and it finally ended up after yours. Good points in your post.

paraphrased from onechristianministry.com    Jesus said "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." He proclaims His purpose is to call sinners to repentance. Repentance, meaning, to turn away from sin. At that calling, sinners then made a choice. They either recognized that they were living in sin, and then followed Jesus Christ...or they chose to reject Him and stay in a sinful life, not following in the path of Christ.

[sheila]

  one man prayed thus...I thank you that I am not like this sinner over here.  The other one was not even willing to lift his eyes to heaven..but prayed..

   O'Lord be merciful to me a sinner.   Which did Jesus say was more righteous?  He who receives a righteous man..receives a righteous man's reward.

   Jesus Christ is the mercy that God extended to the 'sinner" man...and it is his righteousness
   
   the FREE GIFT IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS
 
   It is the righteousness of GOD..it has nothing to do with any righteousness of ourselves...God may count it as such..in our favour with His dealings with us...

   But don't ever fool yourselves that you are ri8ghteous in God's eye's in any other way then through the free gift of Grace. The first covenant of the knowledge

   of Good and evil and law...condemned all Adam's progency

   Now, all scripture is beneficial for building up the body of Christ. All mankind is saved and due to be raised up in Christ....prostitutes and tax-collectors and goy...

  the most despized under the law covenant.

   I have yet to wittness any unseemly gift of the Holy spirit.   But i have heard and seen and read in the scriptures of spots and blemishes that enter into the love feast....

  prophesied about by Jude...men of lawlessness. We are told that the love of the greater number would wax cold due to the increasing of lawlessness...

  and 'to keep putting up" with one another in love


   The 'fullness of the gentiles" must come in...He makes them jealous of a nation that is not a nation.......they enter last..those that think they have righteousness of the law

  or that think  they attain it any other was then through Grace as a free gift.


  Come,Buy without cost...Come! whoever is thirsty let him come!..and whoever wishes let him take the free gift of the water of life


   Then I heard a voice from heaven say 'BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON"  YES..THEY WILL REST FROM THEIR LABOUR  for their deeds will

 follow them.    Is it lawful tokill or heal on the Sabbath?

   Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead..   some men's work's precede them to judgement..and some men's follow

   those that were unregenerated while in the flesh on earth...after death and receiving the free gift serve faithfully in heaven...their deeds follow the free gift...and previous

  unfruitful works while in flesh are burnt up.......saved through fire

   Those called to know Him and serve Him while in this earth..who receive the token of Holy spirit inheritance...receive much counsel and instruction as to the great

  lengths the adversary will go to, causing loss and confusion


    we have heard that all men are saved...........the devil is in the details...the accusor of the brethern is thrown down from the heavens....but woe to the earth

     

[sheila]

jesus ate with the sinners  then what?

       hE TASTED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN [hEBREWS 2;9] SO THAT BY HIS DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM WHO HOLDS THE POWER OF DEATH-THAT

  IS THE DEVIL- AND FREE THOSE WHO ALL THEIR LIVES WERE HELD IN SLAVERY BY THEIR FEAR OF DEATH

    fOR THE CREATURE WAS SUBJECTED TO VANITY..NOT OF IT'S OWN WILL  BUT BY THE WILL OF HE WHO SUBJECTED IT

   IN ORDER TO SET THE WHOLE CREATION FREE  INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD

[shawn]

sorry James, kept messing with this post and it finally ended up after yours. Good points in your post.

paraphrased from onechristianministry.com    Jesus said "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." He proclaims His purpose is to call sinners to repentance. Repentance, meaning, to turn away from sin. At that calling, sinners then made a choice. They either recognized that they were living in sin, and then followed Jesus Christ...or they chose to reject Him and stay in a sinful life, not following in the path of Christ.

See the problem I have with how that is typically preached is that it seems like an event.  We say the sinners prayer...we become one of the suit wearing church people with Bible in hand...and we are free from sin.  While that may be the experience of some...I have a hard time believing that is the case with most.

We are called to turn away from...but who does this perfectly?  Many of us still grapple with vice...alcohol/drugs/pornography/adultery/gossip/ego/people pleasing/over spending/over eating/over gambling etc and so on.  I think the message that is sent is if you still struggle to completely turn away that you are defective...a bad person in danger of hellfire.

I also have a hard time with people focusing on controlling or abstaining from a vice.  It doesn't work.  How many here have white knuckled temptation?  What happened when you failed?  And see that is the problem...we are focused on us.  What I have found is when I focus on me...I do it in vain and I grow ill.

For me...repentence is not the being able to perfectly abstain from sin and vice.  It's the desire to perfectly abstain from sin and vice.  Its a decision to enter into the fire...enter into relationship with Christ and begin the process of gaining freedom.  The first freedom for me was the freedom from the ego centered behavior of needing to be perfect.

So, to those who are struggling with secret sin....don't give up.  Focus your eyes on the solution...enter the gates of his presence through relationship.  Experience Him.  In that you will find the freedom you so desperately seek.

[sheila]

....YEAH.....WHO WILL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH.......

       UNDERSTANDING WHAT SIN'S LAW IS  HELPS

     CURSED IS THE GROUND BECAUSE OF YOU[WEEDS/TARES/DROUGHTS ETC]

     FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT PLEASE GOD  NOR INHERIT

[jabcat]

I think I basically agree with that too Shawn.  I see their illustration as drawing a clear distinction between being accepting or rejecting of Christ.  But IMO, being spiritually reborn doesn't mean completely mature.  I believe those are two events.  One puts us in "right standing" (being given His righteousness through the blood shed on the cross for our salvation), the other is an ongoing process of becoming more like Him, our will yielding to His, Him continually rising within us.  We're still flesh and blood, clay.  If Apostle Paul was still struggling with his flesh, I have no aspirations that I will be any different.

[shawn]

I think I basically agree with that too Shawn.  I see their illustration as drawing a clear distinction between being accepting or rejecting of Christ.  But IMO, being spiritually reborn doesn't mean completely mature.  I believe those are two events.  One puts us in "right standing" (being given His righteousness through the blood shed on the cross for our salvation), the other is an ongoing process of becoming more like Him, our will yielding to His, Him continually rising within us.  We're still flesh and blood, clay.  If Apostle Paul was still struggling with his flesh, I have no aspirations that I will be any different.

I totally agree.

[goodreport]

I think I basically agree with that too Shawn.  I see their illustration as drawing a clear distinction between being accepting or rejecting of Christ.  But IMO, being spiritually reborn doesn't mean completely mature.  I believe those are two events.  One puts us in "right standing" (being given His righteousness through the blood shed on the cross for our salvation), the other is an ongoing process of becoming more like Him, our will yielding to His, Him continually rising within us.  We're still flesh and blood, clay.  If Apostle Paul was still struggling with his flesh, I have no aspirations that I will be any different.

Phil 3:10-11 (Amp)

[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]

That if possible I may attain to the [spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].

[Deena]

Thanks for the honesty, Shawn. What you describe has been my experience as well. The more I try, the worse it gets. It's kind of like a toy I used to play tricks on people with when I was a kid. I think we called them Chinese handcuffs. It is a narrow, hollow tube that that can expand and contract. The trick is to tell a friend to put a finger in each end, then try to pull them out. The problem is that when you pull the tube becomes tighter and you can't get your fingers out. In fact the harder you pull, the tighter it becomes--very frustrating. The only way to get free is to relax and let the tube return to normal size.

[shawn]

That's exactly right.  White knuckling temptation doesn't work.  If it did...we would have something to brag about.  Instead I truly believe its about acceptance of God's mercy...living in it...and just being so greatful that he loves us just how we are.  He accepts us...even though we struggle to accept ourselves.  If we can live in that...it being in the forefront of our minds daily...that amazing grace begins to heal us. 

I work on a beautiful campus and often take walks around the lake.  I pass patients and we say hello.  I pray.  I breathe deep and easy taking in God revealing himself to me through nature.  I give thanks...real thanks...gratitude that can only come from someone who has been forgiven much.  And I look around and see what the enemy meant for my destruction is now my blessing.  I'm in awe of our Savior, because I am a man of vice and weakness...yet somehow God uses me.  In these thoughts I try to live daily...and in them I find the strength to abstain...one day at a time.

[lomarah]

That was beautiful shawn.

[shawn]

That was beautiful shawn.

Thank you Lomarah.