Author Topic: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity  (Read 1636 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« on: March 14, 2011, 04:53:42 AM »
I sometimes feel like Im close minded or pessimistic against any Christian literature that is not openly UR, or at least annihilationist.  Any suggestions on fellowship with other Christians who arent openly UR?  Anytime I see any Christian, Catholic or Protestant literature, I automatically think that this is more soul winning exclusivist legalism.  Not to mention, I have a bias against Christians, automatically believing them to be strong Hellfire believers.  Not to mention the bias that Hellfire believers are self righteous, sadistic, biggoted, narrow minded, pro-cruelty, legalistic and selfish.  I dont know for sure, but does anyone have any suggestions on tackling this bias?  Like I feel that I can be a bit pessimistic about this campaign known as "Catholics come home".  I feel skeptical about reading any such books such as "The Purpose Driven Life"  not to mention listening to megachurch pastors, like Joel Osteen, John Ankerberg, Erwin Lutzer, and a strong need to run away from anything Fundamentalist.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 05:02:14 AM »
Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the Paradise of God.


Rev 2:17  He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies:
To him who is overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone,
and upon the stone a new name written, that no one knew except him who is receiving it .
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 05:27:41 AM »
Lately, I've heard messages in two of my favourite "tv preachers" (the only ones I really respected anyway) - saying in tantamount that universalism is a load of bullocks.

Sufficed to say...I've just not been able to watch anything from Charles Stanley, or even Joyce Meyer since those specific times.  Though in the case of Joyce Meyer, while she has been significantly a help in her ministry to my own needs, I've found myself feeling very leery about the whole "Word-Faith, name it, claim it, if you don't get it you didn't have enough faith" stuff...But when she (and I figured it would happen at some point sooner or later) denounced UR I just felt in my spirit and soul a *click* lights off, turned off.  I couldn't really even finish the program that day...haven't watched it since.  I just haven't felt the desire to anymore.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:30:42 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 05:59:03 AM »
Without being insulting or sounding to harsh,  I say the Lord is well and on His throne, and He is speaking to those who have ears to ear. The brethern who "hear" are moving upwards and breaking loose of the shackles of the profitable religiions.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 06:33:32 AM »
I sometimes feel like Im close minded or pessimistic against any Christian literature that is not openly UR, or at least annihilationist.  Any suggestions on fellowship with other Christians who arent openly UR?  Anytime I see any Christian, Catholic or Protestant literature, I automatically think that this is more soul winning exclusivist legalism.  Not to mention, I have a bias against Christians, automatically believing them to be strong Hellfire believers.  Not to mention the bias that Hellfire believers are self righteous, sadistic, biggoted, narrow minded, pro-cruelty, legalistic and selfish.  I dont know for sure, but does anyone have any suggestions on tackling this bias?  Like I feel that I can be a bit pessimistic about this campaign known as "Catholics come home".  I feel skeptical about reading any such books such as "The Purpose Driven Life"  not to mention listening to megachurch pastors, like Joel Osteen, John Ankerberg, Erwin Lutzer, and a strong need to run away from anything Fundamentalist.


We have no reason to inherantly trust anything written UR or not.   I have read things that are non UR that give me something to consider, I have read things UR that I don't think is true.   we are told to trust the bible, and perhaps we should, but the problem is that we are so many times told what the bible says by someone else expecting us to believe them.

Same gors for what any of us write including me.   Read it, consider it, but seek God for what he wants you to know your YOUR walk which may not look like mine or anyone elses.


Offline thinktank

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 11:10:55 PM »
I think Joel Osteen has potential to be a UR ist. There is an interview with him with Larry, and he feels uncomfortable talking about Hell etc.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 01:22:53 AM »
Consider this . . .
We passionately appreciate the fact that God's unconditional love never fails regardless of our blindness, stubbornness, rebellion, ignorance . . .on and on . . .we embrace God's mercy on us.  I don't want to sound pious or disconnected but these opportunities that arise are times when we should exercise that same unconditional love toward others, regardless of what they're saying or doing.  Love is not a reward for good, it's the very core of our Father.  It's the dna of God.  It's our minds that are accusational in nature . . .the satan within . . . and it is our minds we're to take captive of, if we don't, we begin manifesting those discolored attitudes towards the very ones God holds precious.  Easier said than done . . .but necessary nonetheless.

Whenever I come across a speaker, I don't pay attention to appearance or even the sermon, I listen for sounds of life.  I don't, or try not to, discredit them should their message be anything but, at the same time, I don't continue to receive from them either AT THAT TIME . . .they still have messages that still can be illuminative, but if it's a first time thing, I don't, or try not to, write them off all together . . .however there are others who've made it their mission to be religious alarmists . . .i don't give them the time of day. 

Sad to hear about Joyce Meyer, I beleive she's still an asset to God's purposes in her ministries, people still need that in order to grow into something more solid to where they no longer rely on a message for the day just to get through the day . . .but until then, the Joyce Meyers and others like her are still very much an iimportant part of the body of Christ.  We're not above anyone, nor should we wag our fingers as if we are . . . appreciate the passion, but keep those thoughts of rejection of the person in check . . .God loves us all.  We should do the same.

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 10:08:00 PM »
what happened to Joyce Meyers?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 07:09:15 PM »
If you are responding to my remarks about Joyce Meyer, nothing happened "to" her, I meant I was sorry to hear she rejected the idea of universal salvation as another had stated about her.

Offline shawn

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 07:48:01 PM »
Lately, I've heard messages in two of my favourite "tv preachers" (the only ones I really respected anyway) - saying in tantamount that universalism is a load of bullocks.

Sufficed to say...I've just not been able to watch anything from Charles Stanley, or even Joyce Meyer since those specific times.  Though in the case of Joyce Meyer, while she has been significantly a help in her ministry to my own needs, I've found myself feeling very leery about the whole "Word-Faith, name it, claim it, if you don't get it you didn't have enough faith" stuff...But when she (and I figured it would happen at some point sooner or later) denounced UR I just felt in my spirit and soul a *click* lights off, turned off.  I couldn't really even finish the program that day...haven't watched it since.  I just haven't felt the desire to anymore.

It's funny that you mention those two pastors.  Stanley and Meyer were the the two pastors who I listened to almost exclusively after my "coming back" during my early 20's.  I had experienced a spiritual crisis and I believe God placed both these pastors in my life to minister to my needs at the time.

And while Joyce may have denounced UR beliefs, I don't base my listening to a pastor on agreeing with everything they believe.  I also, don't take an extreme stance of shunning everything, and everyone from traditional churches.  When God presents something to me, I listen.  I won't get caught up in the I won't listen to any pastor who is not UR.  If God wants to speak to me, my ears are open.

What you may have felt, is what I have felt with Joyce.  She ministered to you and myself for a season.  That season has passed and God has pushed us further.  But, I think it's important not to discredit her ministry in that process.  Do I believe her ministry is helpful to the body of Christ...yes.  Do I listen to Joyce anymore?  Rarely and only when I feel led to do so.


Offline shawn

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 07:53:40 PM »
Consider this . . .
We passionately appreciate the fact that God's unconditional love never fails regardless of our blindness, stubbornness, rebellion, ignorance . . .on and on . . .we embrace God's mercy on us.  I don't want to sound pious or disconnected but these opportunities that arise are times when we should exercise that same unconditional love toward others, regardless of what they're saying or doing.  Love is not a reward for good, it's the very core of our Father.  It's the dna of God.  It's our minds that are accusational in nature . . .the satan within . . . and it is our minds we're to take captive of, if we don't, we begin manifesting those discolored attitudes towards the very ones God holds precious.  Easier said than done . . .but necessary nonetheless.

Whenever I come across a speaker, I don't pay attention to appearance or even the sermon, I listen for sounds of life.  I don't, or try not to, discredit them should their message be anything but, at the same time, I don't continue to receive from them either AT THAT TIME . . .they still have messages that still can be illuminative, but if it's a first time thing, I don't, or try not to, write them off all together . . .however there are others who've made it their mission to be religious alarmists . . .i don't give them the time of day. 

Sad to hear about Joyce Meyer, I beleive she's still an asset to God's purposes in her ministries, people still need that in order to grow into something more solid to where they no longer rely on a message for the day just to get through the day . . .but until then, the Joyce Meyers and others like her are still very much an iimportant part of the body of Christ.  We're not above anyone, nor should we wag our fingers as if we are . . . appreciate the passion, but keep those thoughts of rejection of the person in check . . .God loves us all.  We should do the same.

Great post, and I must agree.  It seems every time I try to take a stance against some sort of ministry, God deals with me.  My most recent hair raiser was with Rob Bell.  I have such a wall that comes up when I hear of a new mega church pastor.  My opinion on Rob was dealt with, and he certainly speaks to me.  I don't have to agree with all the doctrine of a pastor in order for me to glean truth from a Christ affirming message.

Quaesitor

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 08:17:53 PM »
I understand you UC,
I too have some hard time "enjoying" a book written by a non-UR christian.
Well, it depends, I still enjoy NT Wright to a certain extent but it's a real downer when I get somewhere in a book where they'll start talking about hell.
Most of the time I'll put down the book and never reopen it, especially if they use obvious bad arguments.

That's pretty good Nathan, I hope I can say that one day too but right now it's a mental turn-off.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 08:21:34 PM »
Quote
What you may have felt, is what I have felt with Joyce.  She ministered to you and myself for a season.  That season has passed and God has pushed us further.  But, I think it's important not to discredit her ministry in that process.  Do I believe her ministry is helpful to the body of Christ...yes.  Do I listen to Joyce anymore?  Rarely and only when I feel led to do so.

I do not discredit her ministry, I didn't mean to present that idea.  Only that I'd been fading out of that for a while, and hearing her denounce UR I suppose was just my cue to move on.  Just as you rarely listen and only when you feel led, so too it is with me - I just haven't felt led.

As for the word-faith movement, I've just been leery about it (not Joyce Meyer specifically, and so I do not mean to discredit her ministry which is based on such principles) but it is a matter mostly of something I'm thinking about in the back of my head.

But yes, Joyce has been exceedingly helpful in my growth, and for that she is certainly a woman of good faith.  I just don't feel hurried or driven to watch and read her stuff - though I do post often on her facebook discussion board, where people (most people) seem to enjoy what I have to say. :)
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline shawn

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 08:37:00 PM »
Quote
What you may have felt, is what I have felt with Joyce.  She ministered to you and myself for a season.  That season has passed and God has pushed us further.  But, I think it's important not to discredit her ministry in that process.  Do I believe her ministry is helpful to the body of Christ...yes.  Do I listen to Joyce anymore?  Rarely and only when I feel led to do so.

I do not discredit her ministry, I didn't mean to present that idea.  Only that I'd been fading out of that for a while, and hearing her denounce UR I suppose was just my cue to move on.  Just as you rarely listen and only when you feel led, so too it is with me - I just haven't felt led.

As for the word-faith movement, I've just been leery about it (not Joyce Meyer specifically, and so I do not mean to discredit her ministry which is based on such principles) but it is a matter mostly of something I'm thinking about in the back of my head.

But yes, Joyce has been exceedingly helpful in my growth, and for that she is certainly a woman of good faith.  I just don't feel hurried or driven to watch and read her stuff - though I do post often on her facebook discussion board, where people (most people) seem to enjoy what I have to say. :)

And Lefein, don't take it wrong.  Sometimes I make a bigger point to a bigger audience when quoting others.  It can lead to confusion.  I don't think you discredited her minisitry, just stated a couple things that gave you pause.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Difficulty trusting any non-Universalist Christianity
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 08:57:56 PM »
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And Lefein, don't take it wrong.  Sometimes I make a bigger point to a bigger audience when quoting others.  It can lead to confusion.  I don't think you discredited her minisitry, just stated a couple things that gave you pause.

Very understandable.  No offense taken on my part.  :boyheart:  I was just clarifying my position just in case.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.