being delivered from the law

[Seth]

Hi Seth, sorry bro, SO busy the past few days (and nights)...Lord willing, by tomorrow night (Friday) I'll be able to sit and actually read some things.  Until then, carry on without me  .

No problem

[Livelystone]

Molly

By one man sin entered into the world and the one man was Adam. Adam was a blood brother to Christ but after his sin he became unclean and was forever cast out of the garden where we are to return to

God spoke of Adam when He spoke of Lucifer and of the King of Tyre. It is the man Adam in us that will be consumed by the fire so that the "son of man" in us be saved and for all time glorify God

Ezek. 18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Adam did not fall on his sword for Eve and he could have kept her from partaking of the forbidden fruit. Had Adam not been weak and chosen to become one with Eve when she was already at enmity with God and in compliance with Satan they could have avoided the sin that got them the boot from the garden.

Adam's failure to do the right thing is a "type and shadow" of when we fail to remain in obedience and commit a sin through yielding to the "Eve" in us who was taken from the flesh.

Blessings

Doug

[Seth]

Adam, a son of God, is not only a type of the one to come but a brother and father by blood to Christ.

Hi Molly, I was wondering where you see that Adam is a "son of God."

He didn't come to slay Adam, but to set him free.

Why are the two mutually exclusive? If Adam needed to be set free, and we need to be set free, doesn't Romans 6 show that in order to be set free, we also die (ie crucified with Christ?)

Isn't Adam the shadow of the Redeemer, Christ?

Yes the but shadow is not the body that casts the shadow. This is why the lambs did not have power to redeem. While they were shadows, they were not the "very thing" in that they lacked the power that Christ has by the Spirit. You seem to be saying that Adam was a shadow and a type, and ALSO the very thing in that the shadow and the body had the same characteristics and power. I don't see that so far.

[Molly]

Hi Molly, I was wondering where you see that Adam is a "son of God."

It's in the book of Luke where he is giving the genealogy of Jesus and takes it all the way back to Adam.


38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

--Luke 3



My head spun around on my shoulders when I first saw that.  There's more to Adam than meets the eye.

Hey, there's your name!

[Seth]

As far as I know, the Greek text from in Luke 3 concerning the genealogy is just a list of names. For example in verse 28, the Greek reads:

Luke 3:28
Enos, Seth, Adam, God.

That's why in the King James, the words "the son of" is in italics, because the translators added it to flesh it out.

Whereas in John 10:36 where it calls him the "Son of God" it says "huios theos" and the word for "son (huios)" is absent from Luke 3:28. And so is absent "monogenēs huios" in John 3:16 where it calls Jesus "the only begotten son."

[jabcat]

Hi Seth.  I'm thinking and reading a bit on the topic.  I basically very much agree with your premises about the law and grace, etc., and I certainly understand the difference between switching tenses.  I'm just not sure that's exactly what Paul was doing and/or when and where.  And it seems to me that to emphatically state so would be either a) complicated and best done with extreme care and clear proofs, or b) (though done with good intent) conjecture.  You may have personally done 'a' very well, I just may need some time to examine and mull it.

Again, the basic premises you have about the Law of Moses showing our sin, and the Law of the Grace of Yesu being sufficient and the ultimate antidote for that sin, I strongly "Amen!".  Carry on, I'm looking at it.

[jabcat]

Walking by the Spirit does not necessarily mean "do good." It means walk in the GUIDANCE of the Spirit who will TEACH you to do good. That is what grace does, it TEACHES even if through chastisement. It doesn't meant that by walking in the Spirit you will be utterly perfect, not even Paul claimed that. It just means by doing so, it will result in being able to do better, because you will be guided. But those who walk in the flesh are in utter slavery. That is a big difference.

It means

walk in the Spirit = will be guided to do good
walk in the flesh = can never do good

It's not a back and forth kind of thing. Law and grace do not mix. It is about being delivered from slavery, and then perfected more through the rest of your life, but always under grace and never back under the law. Do you remember how Paul reacted when he found out the Galatians were placing themselves back under the law? He asked them "who has bewitched you?"

 .  And told them they had "fallen from grace", right?  Not that they weren't "saved", but that they were placing themselves back under a yoke of bondage rather than living in the liberty of the way of the cross.

[Seth]

Hi Seth.  I'm thinking and reading a bit on the topic.  I basically very much agree with your premises about the law and grace, etc., and I certainly understand the difference between switching tenses.  I'm just not sure that's exactly what Paul was doing and/or when and where.  And it seems to me that to emphatically state so would be either a) complicated and best done with extreme care and clear proofs, or b) (though done with good intent) conjecture.  You may have personally done 'a' very well, I just may need some time to examine and mull it.

Again, the basic premises you have about the Law of Moses showing our sin, and the Law of the Grace of Yesu being sufficient and the ultimate antidote for that sin, I strongly "Amen!".  Carry on, I'm looking at it.

Good points. While I believe that Paul is switching tenses like we often do, and does it so suddenly and without transition, that it doesn't change the meaning of the first half of the chapter, even if we take Paul to be saying these things about himself at present day, it only shows an experience under the law.

If Paul is talking about himself at the time of writing, he had placed himself under the law, and was trapped by sin again. The Law of Moses doesn't just reveal or show us our sin by itself. It does it by SIN using the law to grow exeedingly sinful within us. That is the mechanics of sin being revealed by Moses.

It isn't simply that the Law shows us what is good so that we compare it to ourselves (I think that is what people generalize Romans 7 to mean). It's that the law is actually USED by sin for that sin can grow within us and we become BOUND as slaves to sin. It is through that SLAVERY to sin caused by the law without grace, that sin that reveals sin to be sin. Then we are delivered to Christ for salvation, and delivered from the law as a result. That is why, if Paul is talking about himself, not only would he have to have abandoned Grace to teach him Godliness, he would be back under bondage to sin by the Law.

That simply would not make sense, and would make Paul a hypocrite because he would have told the Galatians to not seek righteousness through the law, then he turns around to attempt to follow a Mosaic commandment unto failure himself. Yikes. Most Christians see Romans 7 as a general struggle with sin, which we all identify with, but they don't consider the very important particulars of the chapter, and that is why they misinterpret it, and not even notice the lack of grace being emphasized in the chapter concerning the law.

[Molly]

As far as I know, the Greek text from in Luke 3 concerning the genealogy is just a list of names. For example in verse 28, the Greek reads:

Luke 3:28
Enos, Seth, Adam, God.

That's why in the King James, the words "the son of" is in italics, because the translators added it to flesh it out.

Whereas in John 10:36 where it calls him the "Son of God" it says "huios theos" and the word for "son (huios)" is absent from Luke 3:28. And so is absent "monogenēs huios" in John 3:16 where it calls Jesus "the only begotten son."

Again, I'll say that Luke is giving a genealogy for Jesus.  To that effect, it is understood that each is the son of the one before, and if he meant to indicate otherwise regarding God and Adam, he could have made it clear.  Or, he could have just stopped at Adam.

Instead, he continues the genealogy to God. 

The implication is huge because of the importance it assigns Adam as the [eldest] son.   And, we see this tension between the oldest and youngest sons throughout the Old Testament--a type Old and New Covenant, a type of old and new Israel, a type of flesh and spirit, a type of Law and Grace--the children of the blood versus the children of the promise.

Anyway, it opened up a lot for me.

[Seth]

Very well, but an implication is not a statement. Implications rely much on interpretation rather than stated facts. To me, the implication of leaving out "begotten son of" when in relation to God is that while Adam was physically made by God, he was not born of the Spirit like Christ. If Adam was without sin, then the fact that he transgressed according to Romans 5 shows that a good tree can bring forth bad fruit. Adam can be contrasted with Abraham. Abraham did not "fall on his sword" concerning Isaac, he really went to kill his own son because God said so. Did Adam do the same? No, he transgressed a commandment and followed Eve. Jesus says that his brothers are them "who do the will of the Father in Heaven."

[Seth]

BTW, I just wanted to be clear that when I said that Christ slays Adam, I was talking about the Adamic nature of disobedience in the mind, not literal Adam. It was a metaphor. I am chief sinner along with Paul worthy of all rebuke by the Lord and I am not putting my sin off on Adam. I have great affection for him. 

[Cardinal]

  Molly 

[trettep]

Someone said here that Grace is "FAVOR".  While that is true, it is stopping short of what Grace is and could give people the wrong understanding.  Grace is "APPROVAL".  Approval is favor but Favor is not APPROVAL.  Just wanted to make that distinction. I know there are many commentarys and concordances that will interpret it as "favor" but just wanted to give my opinion on the meaning.

Paul

[Livelystone]

Very well, but an implication is not a statement. Implications rely much on interpretation rather than stated facts. To me, the implication of leaving out "begotten son of" when in relation to God is that while Adam was physically made by God, he was not born of the Spirit like Christ. If Adam was without sin, then the fact that he transgressed according to Romans 5 shows that a good tree can bring forth bad fruit. Adam can be contrasted with Abraham. Abraham did not "fall on his sword" concerning Isaac, he really went to kill his own son because God said so. Did Adam do the same? No, he transgressed a commandment and followed Eve. Jesus says that his brothers are them "who do the will of the Father in Heaven."

Adam was born by the Spirit of God when God who is Spirit breathed into the form created from the dust. God spoke of Adam as being perfect until iniquity was found in him and did not become the son in whom God was 'well pleased" with.

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I think the question that we must face is was their any life in the form that came to be called Adam before God breathed into it?

 After God breathed into the form of Adam it was said to have become a living soul but later Paul spoke of himself before his conversion as alive to the world but dead unto God........ when God made man better than any of the other trees in the garden what does that statement mean?

Ezekiel 31:8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. 10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;


Is the garden story about the creation of the first man or is it a prophecy of man getting the Holy Spirit and then committing a sin 

Who were the morning stars that jumped for joy before the foundations of the earth were formed ?

Lots of unknowns 

Blessings

Doug

[Seth]

Someone said here that Grace is "FAVOR".  While that is true, it is stopping short of what Grace is and could give people the wrong understanding.  Grace is "APPROVAL".  Approval is favor but Favor is not APPROVAL.  Just wanted to make that distinction. I know there are many commentarys and concordances that will interpret it as "favor" but just wanted to give my opinion on the meaning.

Paul

Right, I agree. Grace is favor in that God shows that favor by releasing us from sin, even through teaching/chastisement. The point was is that grace is shown in God's mercy to take away the sin of those who have access by faith, not leave it there and pretend that it doesn't exist, like traditionally believed (like I used to believe).

[Seth]

Adam was born by the Spirit of God when God who is Spirit breathed into the form created from the dust. God spoke of Adam as being perfect until iniquity was found in him and did not become the son in whom God was 'well pleased" with.

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I think the question that we must face is was their any life in the form that came to be called Adam before God breathed into it?

Really interesting thoughts Doug. Very thought provoking. Whenever I see that someone is "perfect in THY ways" a big bell goes off. It does not say he was perfect inside and out, or perfect in God's ways, but perfect in THY ways. It reminds me of when Paul said that he had "HIS OWN" righteousness which was by the law. But we know that the law is meant to reveal "the iniquity in thee."

I see that the Holy Spirit can be given to people, but not necessarily unto conversion of the soul. For example, the 70 disciples were empowered by the Spirit by Christ, in order to go from town to town and cast out devils. However, Jesus, also said to Peter before he died "when you are converted, feed your brothers." The prophets had the Spirit in them....but in order to forecast the Promise of the Spirit to come through the Messiah. So the question is not whether he had the Holy Spirit (which I personally do not believe he did), the question is whether Adam was converted by it if he did.

There will be many people who cast out devils in Christ's name, and he will say "depart from me." But Christ cannot deny his own Body. Having the Spirit is one thing, but being converted by it is something else entirely.

[Molly]

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How can you be perfect and still have a flaw?

The Law has its limitations, depending, as it does, on our own human frailty to abide by it.

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

--Heb 7


We cannot be 'perfect' in God's eyes without Christ, because perfect means complete.  Yes, Adam was there, joined to God as he was in the garden.   Outside the garden, we need Christ.


1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.



"perfect"
G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.

[Livelystone]

Good afternoon Seth

I do not think that there is to be a conversion of the soul as far as our old one being changed but be given a new one just as we were given a new spirit that was our free gift of salvation....... Every spirit has its own soul and it is the tabernacle (or covering) of the spirit.......... our old soul (eve) along with the spirit we were born with (Adam) is whom Jesus referred to when he said let the dead bury their dead and follow Him

 Adam chose Eve instead of the female he was first created with when God blew His breath into Adam that was the very essence of Him thus making Adam to be both male and female before Eve ever came to be. This other woman is the woman with the seed that will always be at enmity with the serpent....... I believe it is the woman from above that Paul referred to as the Jerusalem who is the mother of us all and is our inheritance that is undefiled, UNCORRUPTIBLE and reserved for us in heaven. It is the mind of Christ, and is the bride for the Holy Spirit in us seen being given to us in Rev 21 1-3 . It is the very soul of Jesus that is the balance due for the "earnest of our inheritance" that we already received.

Our old soul being made able to ascend unto heaven is another one of those teachings of the church that is keeping the body separate from the head and as Jesus said nothing will ascend unto heaven that has not first descended (Eve was never in heaven).

No one seems to have a problem with the knowledge that we were given Adam and Eve for our original spirit and soul at our natural birth but for some reason cannot accept that we are given the Holy spirit of Jesus for the earnest of our inheritance and will receive the female half that is the soul of Jesus at a time determined by the Lord....... meanwhile we are to follow after Him who is the Holy Spirit in us

So Brother Seth........ This is just doorknob that opens to a whole new room and I pray that the Lord will allow us to become as one voice and on one accord concerning how our mortal soul will be putting on immortality............ we already have an immortal male spirit given to us from Him and all we need is the equivalent immortal soul also to be given to us so that we may receive the salvation of the soul

Blessings

Doug

[rosered]

 
  Hi Seth and Doug  
 when reading Gen 1  and than chapter 2  
 Adam was made  first  in the image of God and  in Chapter two  from the dust  
 seems we do have an inward and outward  distinction  here
 
 
 Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  
Gen 1:27 So God created man [in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and[Strong's H120 - 'adam ] female created he them.

 
28   And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
 
  one thing is  Name  man  Strong's H120 - 'adam and it seems the inward Image of Man Adam is male and female  in the begining
 
  now in Gen 2.  Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  
 
 there is lots to  consider  when you look at chapters one and two in Genesis    rose

[Livelystone]

  Hi Seth and Doug  
 when reading Gen 1  and than chapter 2  
 Adam was made  first  in the image of God and  in Chapter two  from the dust  
 seems we do have an inward and outward  distinction  here
    rose

Amen RR

Just like the water (the Word) was in existence before the the waterpots were that were filled with water (the Word) and when they were filled all the way to the top with that water (the Word) it was changed to wine (Christ).

Blessings to you

Doug

[sparrow]

Adam chose Eve instead of the female he was first created with when God blew His breath into Adam that was the very essence of Him thus making Adam to be both male and female before Eve ever came to be. This other woman is the woman with the seed that will always be at enmity with the serpent.......

What do you mean?

[Livelystone]

Adam chose Eve instead of the female he was first created with when God blew His breath into Adam that was the very essence of Him thus making Adam to be both male and female before Eve ever came to be. This other woman is the woman with the seed that will always be at enmity with the serpent.......

What do you mean?

Hi Molly

Good question and especially so since it is about something that has only been talked about amongst very few since the time of the Apostles. (Although there have been some going back as far as Jane Leade who was a 17th century prophet whom did acknowledge this "other woman" who was "from the beginning" but did not quite grasp the full significance of her because IMO it was not yet time for it to be revealed)

Simply speaking (because I am both simple and base) God who is a Spirit with a Soul (male and female) breathed into the nostrils of Adam Himself so consequently Adam became a "living soul". (because Adam was then made alive unto God having not yet been separated by the sin that caused Paul to speak of his own past as dead to God because of sin yet he was alive unto the world)

Fast forward back to Genesis when God turned to the woman and said that there "would be enmity between her seed and the seed of the serpent".......... well we know that woman could not be Eve because at that time Eve was in cahoots with the serpent and was in fact at enmity with God rather than the serpent........... Amen?......... I think so !!!

So who is the woman that had the seed that is Christ who would bruise the head of the serpent? ..........that woman in Adam is the female half of God whom has the Spirit (seed) of God within her just like Mary did when she was impregnated with the Holy Spirit of God, when God breathed Himself into Adam just as he did to Mary.

She unlike Eve did not get the boot from the Garden of Eden that translated means "the fence of God on earth" and within that fence was righteousness with God that is reserved for us as the reconciliation of that what was lost at the fall.

I will pray that you see what I am saying here Molly........ as you already know I have always considered you special and chosen of God be amongst the first order.

Blessings to you

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

My spirit has never comfortable with the idea that the Father fertilized one of Mary's eggs.
For as He newly created the first Adam from the dust of the earth.
The second Adam also was newly created.

[Seth]

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How can you be perfect and still have a flaw?

You can be perfect in THY ways and your righteousness can be dirty rags. That was my point. 

[Seth]

Good afternoon Seth

I do not think that there is to be a conversion of the soul as far as our old one being changed but be given a new one just as we were given a new spirit that was our free gift of salvation....... Every spirit has its own soul and it is the tabernacle (or covering) of the spirit.......... our old soul (eve) along with the spirit we were born with (Adam) is whom Jesus referred to when he said let the dead bury their dead and follow Him

Conversion is a change of mind, a renewing. What I was referring to is having the Spirit unto conversion like Peter did at Pentacost, and having the Holy Spirit not unto conversion like Peter did when he was casting out devils. The Spirit is with people to certain tasks and purposes. It was not in God's plan to convert people until Christ was risen, so the Spirit was given according to His plan, which why someone can have the Spirit and not be converted.

Our old soul being made able to ascend unto heaven is another one of those teachings of the church that is keeping the body separate from the head and as Jesus said nothing will ascend unto heaven that has not first descended (Eve was never in heaven).

This might be a difference in how we see the "soul." I am referring to the mind, which is our life (psuche) in that it makes us what we are, everything that we identify with. It is by our mind that we can ascend to heaven, while our flesh is on earth. Do you remember how Christ said that "no man has ascended to Heaven, except the Son of God, who is in Heaven." That is because his mind was with God. Yes, our old soul must die, and a new soul reborn, and that is what it means to be in the Kingdom of God ("righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit").

No one seems to have a problem with the knowledge that we were given Adam and Eve for our original spirit and soul at our natural birth but for some reason cannot accept that we are given the Holy spirit of Jesus for the earnest of our inheritance and will receive the female half that is the soul of Jesus at a time determined by the Lord....... meanwhile we are to follow after Him who is the Holy Spirit in us

As I see it, our mother, New Jerusalem is what we have entered into, being as that it is the Bride. And we have entered the Bride in as much as we have the earnest of the redemption. I do not see the marriage with Christ as being a single event. Marriage is simply a symbol of becoming ONE with another. We are becoming one with Christ daily. That is why Jesus compared the kingdom to a bit of leaven that eventually leavens the whole lump. That is why I think it is unnecessary to separate a joining with Christ's soul at a later time, with joining his Spirit now. Both are happening simultaneously in a growing fashion until our flesh is gone and our bodies are new.

To be joined with Christ's soul is to have a mind renewal daily this day, BY the Spirit which is a process that grows as leaven until it leavens the whole lump.