being delivered from the law

[Seth]

If Paul's not really talking about himself, that's one thing.  I'd want some really good proof that's not the case, never heard that before.

Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life.  Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life.  Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefore, no condemnation.

Hi jabcat,
In that linked thread we were talking about Romans 7, and I just want to share some thoughts on what I see in that chapter, and how Chapter 7 immediately leads to Chapter 8. This has to do with what Paul is talking about when he says "what a wretched man I am." And the question, which has been talked about by many Christians is who is Paul talking about when he says that. In other words, is Paul talking about himself in the present time, or using the present tense to discuss a general process which happens to ANYONE who is under the law? Before we really examine Romans 7 and 8 (and also chapter 6) I want to post a hypothetical story and ask what you see in it:

----

About a month ago, I tripped on the stairs and I tumbled down a good two floors and really hurt my knee and shin. I was really dazed and in shock. When this happened I thought I heard a bone break but at that time, I couldn't be sure.  So I picked myself up and stumbled out through the door. So I am walking down the street and I can't seem to get my bearings. In my mind I want to walk without this limp, but my leg is too injured. I try to walk without the limp, but every time I try, I can't do it. Oh this wretched leg I have! Who will come heal my leg? Thanks be to God, an ambulance! So in my mind I want to walk normally, but with my leg I keep limping.

But today, I am glad to say that NOW I walk normally and to say that my leg is healed. What my leg was not able to do (heal itself), the parametic did by coming with his supplies and bandaging me up. I am so thankful for that parametic.

----

What I hope to do in this conversation is to confirm that Christians do struggle with sin, but that Romans 7 does not describe that. It describes the struggle with sin by those who are under the law and not yet delivered from it. Contrasted to that, I will show that there is another process by which Christians who are not under the law do struggle with sin unto deliverance from it (That process is what we know as, and call, being under "grace").

For now though, regarding that story, I want to ask if you see the literary device, common in all languages and cultures, of shifting the present and past tenses to tell a story.

[Pierac]

You had me at Grace!  


Paul

[Seth]

 

[Seth]

Hi Jabcat, not sure if you have been able to see this thread yet. But I had just wanted to know if you could see the little story there, showing the device by which a writer shifts back and forth between past and present tense. Understanding how, not only do writers do that, but people do that all the time. A much shorter example: I was at the grocery store last week, standing in line, and the cast register broke. So I am standing there with my ice cream melting.

You see how quickly I switched from past to present tense, yet you know when I say "So I am standing there with my ice cream melting" doesn't mean I am doing that right now as I write this. I had just wanted to make sure that you see how that works in the way we speak. Paul does the same thing in Romans 7. If you read the chapter from front to back without pausing, you see that he starts from the past perspective, then suddenly switches to the present tense, yet still talking about the same thing. 

[Seth]

One thing that Christian's struggle with is between Law and Grace. Grace they associate only with forgiveness of sin, and Law they associate with development of good morals. I actually had a preacher who was in the midst of rejecting "UR" tell me that one of his responsibilities is to teach a balance between Law and Grace. That is what Christians do, and this sounds right to them, because while "grace" makes the congregation feel loved and forgiven, and thereby safe, the preacher does not want to take that too far, so he goes back to the Law to keep them moral.

The Bible tells us NOT to mix law with grace. I could post the scripture, but I doubt I need to. And all through Romans 7 we find out why. One MAJOR problem with the Evangelical Christian traditional understanding of grace is its association ONLY with forgiveness of sin. However, if I can establish that grace is much more than that, that it is what grows our morality, then it becomes totally unnecessary to rely on the law to grow in morality. And it also becomes totally NECESSARY to to be completely delivered form the law, to rely only on grace for what we need.

Grace (Gk - charis) is simply God's favor toward us. By faith we access this favor, not by the law. God reveals his favor by his mercy toward us. That mercy is not just in forgiving our sins, but in actively delivering us from them, even through chastisement. If someone is a slave, what is the most merciful thing to do, but to unchain their shackles right? That's true mercy.

Titus 2:11-14
For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches (paideuo) us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to DO what is good.

paideuo (pa-hee-dyoo-o)
to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach."

Hebrews 12:5-7
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (paiduo), and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

There it is. That is why you don't need the law to teach morality like most Christians believe. Grace is sufficient for ALL your needs and not only is it associated with forgiveness of sin, but also with CHASTISEMENT from God toward us growing in Godliness. Isn't it telling then, that Paul does not mention "grace" ONCE in Romans 7? Not once. It's all about the law. And while people think that being under the law of Moses is good for our morals, Romans 7 shows us the EXACT opposite.

In this post, I just wanted to show how that 1) grace is sufficient for all things we need, including our moral development, and 2) that Romans 7 doesn't talk about Grace at all.

In my next post, I'll break Romans 7 down piece by piece and show how it relates to Romans 6 and Romans 8.

[Seth]

So I will now go through Romans 7 and the beginning of 8 point by point to show why, if we say "oh what a wretched man I am" we show that we are under the law, and not under grace and that rather than being delivered from sin daily, we are hopeless captives to it, without mercy or victory. That is the message of this following chapter. The entire chapter of Romans 7 is dealing with the experience of one who is under the law, whether it be an Israelite, or a Christian who has been bewitched by what we would call Judaizers who wish to place anyone they can back under captivity. Paul dealt with that in Galatians. Let's do it:

Romans 7:1-4
Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Paul gives us a valuable metaphor: When a man dies he is released from the authority of the law. When a woman's husband dies, she is free to marry another because she is free from the law that bind her to him. What the chapter shows is that this is a metaphor for those who have the Spirit. Christ is our husband now, right? We are his bride? What were we married to before? A body of sin. And the law kept us married to that body, until our husband is put to death, thereby releasing us from the law so we can be joined to Christ. We see here that "the law" is something to die to, or be delivered from, not something to be under.

------

verses 5-6
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature (KJV "when we were in the flesh") the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

It is interesting, that phrase "when we were in the flesh" because Romans 8 says that "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us." So, everything Paul is about to say regarding the law, applies to them who are "in the flesh" when all the sinful passions were at work in their bodies. Now, even though Spirit carriers do struggle with sin to some degree, they do even as they are not "in the flesh" rather "in the Spirit." That means our struggle is under grace unto deliverance not under the law unto captivity.

------

verses 7-9
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Here Paul is still speaking in the past tense, and he is still talking about what it was like when we "were in the flesh" married to sin, still needing to die to sin to be married to Christ. Paul establishes that the law is not sin itself, but is holy and righteous. Sin in us is there but it lies dormant with no law to reveal it. When the holy law comes, sin uses the law to trick us, and produces lust within us, which is lawless. So the law is weak in delivering us from sin, which is why Paul says that none can be made righteous by works of the law.

------

verses 11-13
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Again, Paul is still speaking in the past tense, as when we were in the flesh and not in the Spirit, when the motions of sin worked in us unto death in sin.In another place, Paul says that the law engraved in stone and written in ink are "ministrations of death." Here, Paul clarifies that while the law is holy, it nevertheless kept us in bondage to death, because of sin. What is critically important here is that the purpose of the law is revealed: "that sin be recognized as sin." In order for sin to be recognized as sin, it grew "utterly (KJV "exeeding") sinful"

------

verse 14-19
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Now, Paul suddenly switches to the present tense. Hopefully you can see through my earlier example, that just because the present tense is used, does not mean Paul is speaking about the present tense, but is using it to illustrate the past. The law is spiritual. I am carnal, sold under sin. This is still "while we were in the flesh, the motions of sin worked in us." Was Paul intending to say that he couldn't do good under the Gospel of Grace? Of course not, as you saw, Grace teaches us to do good when before we could not, as illustrated here.

He says he is carnal but the law is spiritual. The law of Moses is spiritual, but veiled in the flesh, just like Christ was. He was veiled in the flesh, still being spiritual, yet brought no spiritual conversion to the inward man, until he died and was resurrected unto Pentacost. Christ only healed people outwardly, but did not convert anyone until the flesh was removed. So the Law of Moses, in like fashion was spiritual, but veiled in the flesh, and brought healing to nobody, because while being spiritUAL, it was not THE SPIRIT.

------

verses 21-24
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Paul, being a former Pharisee, delighted in his inner man after the law, but could not do good when he was "in the flesh" and married to sin under captivity to the law. Who would deliver him from the body of death? Wait a minute, did Paul in present time not know the answer to that? Of course he did, but when he was "in the flesh" and not "in the Spirit" he had no idea who could deliver him from slavery. The answer of course is Christ who comes to destroy the old man (to kill him), as we see in Romans 6 and 8, so that a new man can be born.

-------

verse 25
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Here Paul recaps the former struggle in the mind that he had in slavery to sin. Turn the page

-------


Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Here is the turning point of the struggle. Paul speaks about the righteousness of the law, yet he says that the law was weak through the flesh (because sin used it to trick us). However, Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh pronounced a death sentence against sin so that the righteousness OF the law (which is LOVE with the flesh-veil removed) can be fulfilled in us. This is why it says that those who are "in the flesh" cannot please God. However, once recieving the Spirit and being placed under GRACE, our minds are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit. This is why BY GRACE we do not need to be condemned to say "I am so wretched" if it means continually not doing what we want. Grace gives us the ability to do what we wanted, by setting us free from that. This does not mean we don't struggle, but we do not have to join the struggle of them who are under the law.

[Livelystone]

Hello Seth

There are a couple of different laws being discussed in Romans

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of sin is one law but the law of his mind that is the mind of Christ is a different law and is mentioned earlier in Romans

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[/b]

The words "faith" and "sin" serve as both nouns and verbs. As nouns they are both "seeds" and follow the law of the seed that simply says apple seeds in turn will make more apples. So it is with the seed of sin that is a noun and brings forth fruit in its own image that in this case is a verb that describes the act of a sin

Same thing with faith....... faith is a seed from God that is a noun and brings forth in its own image..... good works of faith.......James proves that he agrees with when he speaks of faith without works being dead

So we have two laws. at war here within Paul......... the law of faith from the presence of the seed that is Christ in us and the law of sin that is the "seed of the serpent

Paul trying to serve the law of faith and failing is what makes him a "wretched man" and is confirmed when he says the following

Ro. 7: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I

As far as the wife and the husband part goes........ that is Adam and Eve in us....... if Adam in us dies (Spirit of the old man in us) Eve (our mind, will and emotions) is free to follow after the Holy Spirit that is Christ in us 

Blessings

Doug

[Doc]

One thing that Christian's struggle with is between Law and Grace. Grace they associate only with forgiveness of sin, and Law they associate with development of good morals. I actually had a preacher who was in the midst of rejecting "UR" tell me that one of his responsibilities is to teach a balance between Law and Grace. That is what Christians do, and this sounds right to them, because while "grace" makes the congregation feel loved and forgiven, and thereby safe, the preacher does not want to take that too far, so he goes back to the Law to keep them moral.

The Bible tells us NOT to mix law with grace. I could post the scripture, but I doubt I need to. And all through Romans 7 we find out why. One MAJOR problem with the Evangelical Christian traditional understanding of grace is its association ONLY with forgiveness of sin. However, if I can establish that grace is much more than that, that it is what grows our morality, then it becomes totally unnecessary to rely on the law to grow in morality. And it also becomes totally NECESSARY to to be completely delivered form the law, to rely only on grace for what we need.

Grace (Gk - charis) is simply God's favor toward us. By faith we access this favor, not by the law. God reveals his favor by his mercy toward us. That mercy is not just in forgiving our sins, but in actively delivering us from them, even through chastisement. If someone is a slave, what is the most merciful thing to do, but to unchain their shackles right? That's true mercy.

Titus 2:11-14
For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches (paideuo) us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to DO what is good.

paideuo (pa-hee-dyoo-o)
to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach."

Hebrews 12:5-7
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (paiduo), and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

There it is. That is why you don't need the law to teach morality like most Christians believe. Grace is sufficient for ALL your needs and not only is it associated with forgiveness of sin, but also with CHASTISEMENT from God toward us growing in Godliness. Isn't it telling then, that Paul does not mention "grace" ONCE in Romans 7? Not once. It's all about the law. And while people think that being under the law of Moses is good for our morals, Romans 7 shows us the EXACT opposite.

In this post, I just wanted to show how that 1) grace is sufficient for all things we need, including our moral development, and 2) that Romans 7 doesn't talk about Grace at all.

In my next post, I'll break Romans 7 down piece by piece and show how it relates to Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Great stuff, Seth. Not to mention that Paul clearly describes that the function of the law is to show us that we need help, not to actually give the help needed that you have described above.   

[Seth]

Great stuff, Seth. Not to mention that Paul clearly describes that the function of the law is to show us that we need help, not to actually give the help needed that you have described above.   

Right.  That is the third law described in Romans 7.

We have:

1) the law of sin and death in our members
2) the law of our mind which is in slavery to that law
3) the Law of Moses (the spiritual law) which exposes the law of sin by placing into battle with the law of our mind. That spiritual law is what we are delivered from into THE Spirit.

[Livelystone]

Great stuff, Seth. Not to mention that Paul clearly describes that the function of the law is to show us that we need help, not to actually give the help needed that you have described above.   

Right.  That is the third law described in Romans 7.

We have:

1) the law of sin and death in our members
2) the law of our mind which is in slavery to that law
3) the Law of Moses (the spiritual law) which exposes the law of sin by placing into battle with the law of our mind. That spiritual law is what we are delivered from into THE Spirit.

At some point in time Paul obtains the mind of Christ that is the law of God

He spoke of himself and the others as having the mind of Christ but then exonerates Christians to allow the mind of Christ to be in them too

Considerable difference between the two

Blessings

Doug

[Seth]

Yes Paul spoke that we are given the Spirit as a downpayment until the redemption of the purchased possession. Romans 7 does not describe victory in the Spirit. It describes continual defeat as the law of sin in our members sets itself successfully against the law of our minds by using the holy commandments in the Law of Moses. Since we have recieved not the full inheritance we still must grow in the Spirit. This is not done under the spiritual law by which sin continually USES that command to GROW within us. This is done under grace by which sin is continually put down within us daily, and not under the law.

Romans 7 describes defeat under the law of Moses. Romans 6 and 8 describe victory in the Spirit.

[Molly]

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.




Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[rosered]

 
  Hi all , Seth  
 Do you think it is the same Law of Liberty  spoken of as well ?
 
 
 Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.  
  
1Cr 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.  
1Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?  
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:  
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  
 
 
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.  
  
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.  
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.  

  1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.  
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
 
 
  strongs  greek 1657 from G1658

eleutheria
1) liberty to do or to omit things having no relationship to salvation

2) fancied liberty

a) licence, the liberty to do as one pleases

3) true liberty is living as we should not as we please

eleutheros
 Pronunciation

e-lyü'-the-ros (Key)
 

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) freeborn

a) in a civil sense, one who is not a slave

b) of one who ceases to be a slave, freed, manumitted

2) free, exempt, unrestrained, not bound by an obligation

3) in an ethical sense: free from the yoke of the Mosaic Law
   children  born of the free woman [church]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.  


 Gal 4:23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.  
 Gal 4:31   So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.  

[rosered]

Romans 7 describes defeat under the law of Moses. Romans 6 and 8 describe victory in the Spirit.

    VERY WELL PUT ! 
 
  Simple sweet and to the point
 
 spot on !

[Seth]

Amen Molly and redrose. Sometimes, and entire chapter of one NT book can be summed up in a few verses of another book and vice versa. While this smaller verse captures the point of Romans 7, Romans 7 explains in great detail the meaning of Galatians:17-18


Gal 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Does that sound familiar? It sounds just like Romans 7. It's the difference again between being under the law and being in the Spirit. The law binds us to the flesh, until the flesh is crucified with Christ.

Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are NOT under the law.

-----

Here is another one: Remember how Romans 7 says that the law is made to reveal sin as sin?

Romans 3:21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

------

This again reveals the point of Romans 7, that the law BINDS us to being wretched UNTIL Christ comes at which point we are placed under GRACE and set free as we walk in our lives. If anyone is in Christ the wretched man should be captured by grace and set free from the spiritual Law of Moses, not further bound in sin under it.

[Tim B]

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Verses like these always bothered me. It often feels like it's saying: if you sin, you're walking in the flesh, and so not of the Spirit, and so under the law. It feels like grace is only their if you walk in the Spirit, but if you're walking the Spirit, then you wouldn't need grace to begin with. (Because, it seems, to walk in the Spirit is to do what's right, and so you wouldn't need grace.) Maybe it's because I've also looked at grace as only being from the standpoint of "forgiveness".

But it often feels like walking in the Spirit is some sort of silly conditional thing. It's like: do good = you walk in the Spirit = within grace, verse this: do bad = walk in the flesh = under the law = in need of grace = needs to walk in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit feels very conditional upon actions rather than grace.

[Seth]

Walking by the Spirit does not necessarily mean "do good." It means walk in the GUIDANCE of the Spirit who will TEACH you to do good. That is what grace does, it TEACHES even if through chastisement. It doesn't meant that by walking in the Spirit you will be utterly perfect, not even Paul claimed that. It just means by doing so, it will result in being able to do better, because you will be guided. But those who walk in the flesh are in utter slavery. That is a big difference.

It means

walk in the Spirit = will be guided to do good
walk in the flesh = can never do good

It's not a back and forth kind of thing. Law and grace do not mix. It is about being delivered from slavery, and then perfected more through the rest of your life, but always under grace and never back under the law. Do you remember how Paul reacted when he found out the Galatians were placing themselves back under the law? He asked them "who has bewitched you?"

[Seth]

Tim, the Apostle John said this:

I John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

You see? He decidedly does NOT say: "If you sin, that law is gonna getcha! You are walking according to the flesh, and now you are wretched wretched people, let the cycle keep running" John knew better than to put people back under condemnation. If any man sin, he points to GRACE. If you sin, and you are walking by the Spirit, you will be guided by grace according to your advocate. Your advocate is a living being, the man Jesus Christ, not dead letters of the law.

[Livelystone]

Adam and Eve are our spirit and soul who have become one flesh that bring forth both good and evil as given evidence through Abel and Cain

In addition to that flesh is given life by spirit albeit an unclean spirit (adam)

When Jesus spoke of an unclean spirit going out of a man and going to the "dry places that is the dust the flesh is made up of he finds his wicked friends (the soul of the unclean spirit) whom he then through Eve tempts the the individual to sin just as back in the garden.......... if the person yields then the unclean spirit is once again sitting as the "man of sin in the temple of God where he ought not to be"

Spirit can bring forth good or bad and so can flesh bring forth good or bad.................flesh cannot inherit heaven but then neither can every spirit........ when the Apostles wanted to pass judgement on those who rejected them Jesus rebuked them saying "you know not what matter of spirit you are"

Blessings

Doug









[/quote]

[Seth]

Adam and Eve are our spirit and soul who have become one flesh that bring forth both good and evil as given evidence through Abel and Cain

Here is how I see it being laid out in Romans 7 and in the whole scripture. The first Adam was a type and shadow of the Adam to come which is Christ. The shadow is not the very thing, but is weaker than the body that casts the shadow. Adam was weaker than Christ.

The church is Eve. Eve is married to Adam, until Adam dies. So, with all the jealousy of his Father and in his wrath, Christ puts Adam to death, and Eve is able to marry Christ.  We are bound by the law to remain married to our old Adam, until Christ baptizes us, and kills that old nature, and replaces Adam with Himself. Thus being, we are delivered from the law, when we are delivered from the old Adam.

It is true that some spirits are evil and some good. But the Holy Spirit is good. And having been delivered of the law, by the Spirit, we are able to be submitted to Grace and walk free of sin and perfected more as we grow. All good things come in and through God's grace to us. This is why we must continue to walk in grace without wavering or sidestepping.

[Livelystone]

Amen to the Holy Spirit being good

As far as Adam being a type and shadow of Christ that is in reference to before the fall or as Ezeikeil says "until iniquity was found in him"

Eve can never marry Christ because she has sinned and is no longer a virgin that one has to be to marry the High Priest but I understand the "spirit" of what you are saying and do agree........ consequently we are to do as Paul says and be able to be presented as chaste virgins that means appearing as one even though it is not (God calling things as if they are even though they are not) just as you said the shadow being weaker than the real thing.

Enjoyed reading your post 

Blessings

Doug

[Seth]

Thanks Doug. What I have learned so far is this. We have received the deposit of the inheritance until the redemption comes. This means we do not have the Spirit without measure, but a measured part, so that we may fit into a many membered body, not all are eyes, not all are feet.

What I see is that we are already married to Christ, yet not fully. So Eve is able to marry Christ in as much as it is a downpayment of the future full inheritance. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and the great thing about that is that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.

In downpayment form, we have righteousness and peace in the Spirit (which is the kingdom), yet not the FULL inheritance. So, while I say that Adam is put to death, I say also that he is being put to death and that also he WILL be put to death. However, all this three part process is happening under the administration of GRACE, not under the law. If we were under the law, Adam would always be alive and could not even BEGIN to die because the sin, by the law, strengthens Adam so that he becomes exceeding within us. Under grace is where Adam is slain.

Peace to you too brother. 

[Cardinal]

  Amen, Livelystone......

[Molly]

Adam wasn't slain, he fell on his sword for Eve. The high priest enters the Most Holy Place not without blood, and the only blood he had to offer was his own--undeceived, undefiled, the firstborn of the flock, [Abel's offering in Gen 4], without spot or blemish until he entered into the transgression for Eve.

Adam, a son of God, is not only a type of the one to come but a brother and father by blood to Christ.

Christ is called the second Adam, the last Adam, the Son of Adam.

Jesus is our kinsman Redeemer.

Christ didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

He didn't come to slay Adam, but to set him free.

People are always maligning Adam, but isn't he the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God, if not directly, then by proxy, the first step in fulfilling God's plan for redemption?  Isn't Adam the shadow of the Redeemer, Christ?


Something happened before Adam was lowered, something that required the freeing of all creation by God's Man.

2 Now the earth [became] formless and empty,  darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

--Gen 1


23 I looked at the earth,
    and it was formless and empty.
    [I looked] to the heavens,
    and their light was gone.

--Jer 4


A creation that is ruined, as surely as his bride..


25 I looked, and no [Adam] was left;
    all the birds of the sky had fled.

---Jer 4

...and there was not a man to till the ground.

---Gen 2


No man to till a garden that had been turned into wilderness.  What happened?


26 I looked, and the fertile field  was a wilderness.

--Jer 4


18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.

--Gen 3


But God's man Adam would be with Eve in the wilderness,-- her name,  'Woman,' meaning  'mortal.'



"Woman"

From
H582
אנושׁ
'ĕnôsh
en-oshe'
From H605; properly a mortal (and thus differeing from the more dignified H120); hence a man in general (singly or collectively).


And, the mortal woman would carry an incorruptible seed.

Romans 13:10
.... therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

[jabcat]

Hi Seth, sorry bro, SO busy the past few days (and nights)...Lord willing, by tomorrow night (Friday) I'll be able to sit and actually read some things.  Until then, carry on without me  .