Battling the Flesh

[shawn]

We are told to bring every THOUGHT into captivity to the mind of Christ. Not recognizing the need to take authority over this avenue is, at worst, setting ourselves above the Master, who Himself had to respond with the scriptures when tried as by fire in the wilderness. He went from taking authority over His own vessel, to being given power and authority over the vessels of others. Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".

In a similar illustration, as children we don't have other children to "rule" over, but we must learn how to disipline ourselves. But as adults we have children and we must "rule" over them as part of our responsibility as adults and parents. And so we read, "spare the rod, spoil the child". Unfortunately, in their carnal understanding many mistook this to mean to beat their children into submission, but the rod of authority is/was both a shepherds hook, and a symbol of being the firstfruits/head, ie. GENESIS of something. In the same vein, many heads of ministries beat their sheep into submission to their particular doctrine or doctrines.

An interesting thing is, the patriarchs had rods, in which they carved their generations into, tracing back their lineage all the way to Adam, who traced his all the way back to GOD. Christ, the firstfruits, is OUR ROD OF AUTHORITY, and we are to "wield" that "upright (righteousness) staff" both as a shepherd in tending/caring for the flock, and in the corrective aspect of a LOVING parent.

So when we RAISE our rod of authority, the spirits see our lineage as going back to GOD also. The resurrection while still in the body, is as the raising of the rod of authority, no different than when Moses raised his rod and the waters (of judgment to the flesh) rolled all the way back to the city (multiple habitations) of ADAM. This is what Romans 8 the manifestation of the sons of God, IS. No longer Christ in us the HOPE of glory ONLY, but the actual glory being manifested. Christ IS, the glory of God.

The HELMET of salvation is the first article of our armor for a reason. The "womb-man" will recreate whatever seed is planted into it, giving birth to "giants" (exalted themselves above the mind of Christ). So the first "battleground" is the mind, where the seeds are planted. These seeds come in as thoughts, they are the unclean birds that seek to make a nest so they can procreate.

As I said before, some thoughts originate inside our flesh, some outside. The "method" for carrying out the judgments of the law, is a spirit. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would fall away, and indeed it doesn't, BUT in us it is accomplished spiritually. Read Deut. 28 if you are unfamiliar with the judgments and the blessings decreed by God. Then look to your own family to see if the judgments have not been carried out down thru the generations, and are not still being carried out. These are generational curses at work, and the reason you see particular things running thru the generations. Science and medicine say they are "genetic predispositions", but they are only looking at the fruit, not the root. The root is spiritual, a spirit has the capacity to change our physical make-up and eventually our DNA.

One of the errors in separating us from Israel leads to missing the fact that we are spiritually speaking, spiritual Israel. Everything that they went thru was for our example, because we are to inherit the promises that were made to THEM! They "carried" us as a woman with child. As in the wilderness, the children were the only ones to enter into the promised land, and so we are told that we must enter in as a small child.

I'm going to finish this in another post; the program is jolting my screen again :(

Amen!

This section especially is spot on.

As I said before, some thoughts originate inside our flesh, some outside. The "method" for carrying out the judgments of the law, is a spirit. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would fall away, and indeed it doesn't, BUT in us it is accomplished spiritually. Read Deut. 28 if you are unfamiliar with the judgments and the blessings decreed by God. Then look to your own family to see if the judgments have not been carried out down thru the generations, and are not still being carried out. These are generational curses at work, and the reason you see particular things running thru the generations. Science and medicine say they are "genetic predispositions", but they are only looking at the fruit, not the root. The root is spiritual, a spirit has the capacity to change our physical make-up and eventually our DNA.

And yet, many attempt to cure addiction, anxiety and depression with pills.  The root is a spiritual sickness.  Heal the spirit, heal the person.

[Cardinal]

  Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

[shawn]

Ok, so how do we overcome? Again, it depends on whether outside the body or inside the body. Also understand that there is nothing outside the body that can tempt you if it is not FIRST inside the body. THIS is why it says let no man say when he is tempted, that God tempted him (as if the temptation was from WITHOUT); NOT because He does not allow the tempting/testing (think of Job), but because if we fail it's because it was already IN US to begin with. That's why Jesus said the prince of this world cometh, BUT HE HATH NOTHING IN ME.

Until we can say the same, when the princes/principalities of the air/spirit, come, and they many times find something in us they can stand on. And then the battle begins. If we entertain the thought the spirit brings to the door (sin crouching at the door, as a lion crouches) of our heart, and open our door/heart to it, it comes in and makes our condition worse/more weak in that area than it was before.

Let me just say up front, that there is NO SHAME in admitting these things happen. Now this may come as a shock to some, but ALL SIN IS COMMON TO MAN, means we were all made from the same serpent's meat (dust) and all have the same spirits to begin with. This is what we were lowered into to overcome, to grow strong and mature from, just as a muscle grows bigger and stronger from resistance. The ONLY DIFFERENCE between us and a literal murderer is that, that person gave life to what was in their heart and we didn't. HOWEVER; that the SPIRIT is still there, is why He said if you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, then you have murdered him.

This is why He rebuked the Pharisees, telling them to clean the INSIDE OF THE CUP, not just the outside. Deliverance, then, is cleaning the INSIDE of the "cup". We, our hearts, are the cup or vessel HE drinks from. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Christ is in the "hell" of all, ie. their unclean cups/hearts, waiting for a drink of cool living water from one who has overcome in whatever area they are struggling with. Do we have a drink for Him? Or do we expect Him to drink of a bitter (unclean) fountain?

An old friend of mine went to an conference once of 5000 pastor's from all over the country, of her denomination. He gave her a vision of HIM in all 5000 of them, BOUND, saying, "SET ME FREE!" She had been resisting leaving her denomination; that took care of that.

But He is not just bound by denominational walls men have erected to separate His body within man, He is bound by all the things we do not overcome. He wants to manifest Himself FULLY thru the body He died for. We are not just overcoming for ourselves, we are overcoming for HIM, and for ALL, including our generations.

Now the nuts and bolts. Do you hear His voice yet? If He can speak to you in your seeking, He can tell you what spirit it is you are battling. It's not necessary for removal that you name it, but it DOES aid in understanding what it is and HOW it operates. They are "sneaky"; they will find any avenue to express their nature thru you. Most people think of lust as being a sexual sin only, but His definition of lust is DESIRING ANYTHING apart from His perfect will for the individual in whatever situation is being presented. Start praying and asking Him for His perfect will to be done in you.

Train yourself to become aware of every thought and measure it against what the Word says, or against what a particular revelation to you has been previously (of the Word). Resist the devil and he will flee, comes in here. If you continue to be diligent in this, eventually you will lose your appeal to that spirit, because it already has tried you so many times before without success, and following that, the Lord will deliver you of whatever remnant in that area of your heart/soul may remain.

I will add here before anyone raises that flag, that the abuses of deliverance in many ministries were a result of "getting ahead" of the Lord and just indiscriminately casting out anything they thought they saw. Sometimes they hit on one, and the spirits ARE subject to us in His name, but the ministers failed to listen to the LORD on WHEN to remove it, and so the person had not overcome it yet, and subsequently fell "7 times worse". The ministers will bear their own judgment over that, no need to condemn them.

I'll use myself as an example. I had a serious back injury when young; had 4 vertebraes out of place, ruptured discs, partial paralysis on one leg. After I came to the Lord NO ONE PRAYED FOR ME, I didn't ask for prayer, BUT, I got healed one night. I asked Him how this could happen since no one prayed, I didn't ask (thought I was unworthy), and He told me I had overcome the darkness (read spirits here) that had brought the injury to me.

He then showed me in the Word, how He had told the Israelites to seperate themselves from idolators like the Egyptians and Chaldeans, but when it was time to BUILD THE TEMPLE, He instructed them to BRING IN these groups as workers. When their particular job to do in the temple was finished, THEY LEFT WITHOUT BEING TOLD, and the priests (read Christ here) cleansed the temple and the glory of the Lord came in. So by the same principle, when the "workmen's" work was finished IN MY TEMPLE, they left.

He didn't name them, and to this day I have no idea what their name/nature was, but I know they must have had something to do with righteousness (uprightness), and probably rebellion (neck). They have never come back, and I was so healed the mylogram couldn't even find the scar tissue where the injuries WERE. When God does it, He does it right, LOL. I hope this helps someone.......Blessings.....

I am being fed today.  Thank you for that Cardinal.

[Cardinal]

  You're most welcome, but thank Him, for it was by Him and thru Him that I overcame anything, to have anything TO share.

I also want to add as a means of showing you how "sneaky" they are.......One year after I KNEW I was healed, the tests they ran on me confirmed it, I suddenly had the same near crippling pain in my back one day. I TOOK THE THOUGHT, that "maybe I did something to it, lifted something wrong, ect." and by that was opening myself up to it again, unwittingly.

Just then, the Lord spoke to me, "This is a LYING SYMPTOM, cast it out." I got MAD, and stomped my foot (impossible nearly with back pain like that), and commanded that thing off me and loosed it into the fire of the living God. It has never tried to return and that was over 20 years ago now, praise be to Him. Blessings.....

PS. Anyone that tries to tell you God doesn't do deliverance has not read Genesis 1 where God separated the light FROM the DARKNESS.

[shawn]

You're most welcome, but thank Him, for it was by Him and thru Him that I overcame anything, to have anything TO share.

I also want to add as a means of showing you how "sneaky" they are.......One year after I KNEW I was healed, the tests they ran on me confirmed it, I suddenly had the same near crippling pain in my back one day. I TOOK THE THOUGHT, that "maybe I did something to it, lifted something wrong, ect." and by that was opening myself up to it again, unwittingly.

Just then, the Lord spoke to me, "This is a LYING SYMPTOM, cast it out." I got MAD, and stomped my foot (impossible nearly with back pain like that), and commanded that thing off me and loosed it into the fire of the living God. It has never tried to return and that was over 20 years ago now, praise be to Him. Blessings.....

PS. Anyone that tries to tell you God doesn't do deliverance has not read Genesis 1 where God separated the light FROM the DARKNESS.

That is an awesome story of deliverance.  Thank you and thank God!

[CHB]

Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.

CHB

[jabcat]

Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.

CHB

I don't have all answers - maybe just a few pieces here and there.  But I think they are beautiful (and helpful) questions as I seek either a balance, or a total "giving over" to Him.  In process.   Thanks.  :)

[Cardinal]

Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.

CHB

  If you're dead, who is it then that does any works thru you?

Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. Let me reword that a little for clarity. Faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) without works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) is dead (or produces death) and works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) without faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) is dead (produces death).

It all begins and ends with Him. The struggle is from trying to do things in our flesh, ie. out of season, out of order, not according to pattern, INDEPENDENT of the working of the Spirit in us and thru us. What does the pattern of the Tabernacle show us, is where I begin.

The priests had to trim the wicks daily or else the place would smoke up and visibility was nil. This speaks of circumcising our hearts so that we can perceive more of Him, and therefore receive, more of Him, since we have to "see" Him to be changed to be as He is, from glory (terrestrial/fleshly) to glory (celestial/spiritual).

Putting the animal (carnal beastly natures) to death for sins was another repeat pattern given to us to show the necessity of making of ourselves a living sacrifice. The people who brought the animal laid their hands on it with the idea of transferrence of sins to the animal; Himself bore our sins.

The High Priest's offering took away the sins of the people once a year, but during that year they were STILL expected to bring forth the animals for their sins. Our High Priest took away the power of sin offering a permanent cleansing from it, BUT we are still expected to appropriate it by COOPERATING with the HG who DOES the works. If it were all done, then death the last enemy would be defeated, yet look around us, death still reigns from Adam to Moses because we are still under the law and it's effects SPIRITUALLY until it is all accomplished in us and thru us BY THE SPIRIT.

This is why He said today and tomorrow (2000 years) I will DO CURES AND CAST OUT DEVILS, but the third day, I will be perfected (completed). Who does the works? HE does. Do we have to do our part in cooperation by pressing in gaining wisdom and knowledge, growing to maturity, and that including appropriating deliverance? YES. Under the law if a man did not work, he did not eat.

The churches are full of people that are starving to death, because they've been taught by the Jezebel spirit that rules over them, not to work, living lives of "leisure" letting another man get their bread for them, which is against the commandment given for every man to get gather his own manna for his house, and TWICE that amount on the 6th day (which is NOW).

Herein lies the main problem, and that is that the churches taught that the law is not in effect because we are under grace, BUT Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away till all be fulfilled. It has to be fulfilled in us spiritually, else God is a liar. Passover, was part of the law. Pentecost, was part of the law.

Do we "observe" these feasts spiritually, or no? Yes, we do, so then all the law means something to us spiritually, because you can't take one part of the law, or you're a debtor to the whole law. Well, He "set us up" because from the beginning of the NT covenant, He made us a debtor to the law, BUT the difference is that now we have a SPIRITUAL High Priest and a spiritually mediated and ENFORCED, covenant. The Spirit IS grace, grace is not something separate that excludes the law, it FULFILLS it. My  Blessings....

[CHB]

Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.CHB

{quote author=Cardinal]
  If you're dead, who is it then that does any works thru you?

God. When Christ died, I died, when he was resurrected, I was resurrected, he is sitting on the right hand of God and I am sitting IN him there also.  Christ did the works for me. I no longer have any works, it is the works of Christ that are manifested in me.

Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. Let me reword that a little for clarity. Faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) without works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) is dead (or produces death) and works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) without faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) is dead (produces death).

(Gal. 2:20) I live by the faith of the Son of God. My faith isn't worth diddly squat. (Gal. 9:12) law {or works} is not of faith.

It all begins and ends with Him. The struggle is from trying to do things in our flesh, ie. out of season, out of order, not according to pattern, INDEPENDENT of the working of the Spirit in us and thru us. What does the pattern of the Tabernacle show us, is where I begin.

I agree that it begins and ends with him. Struggling to do things in the flesh is just pleasing ourselves and not God.

The priests had to trim the wicks daily or else the place would smoke up and visibility was nil. This speaks of circumcising our hearts so that we can perceive more of Him, and therefore receive, more of Him, since we have to "see" Him to be changed to be as He is, from glory (terrestrial/fleshly) to glory (celestial/spiritual).

Putting the animal (carnal beastly natures) to death for sins was another repeat pattern given to us to show the necessity of making of ourselves a living sacrifice. The people who brought the animal laid their hands on it with the idea of transferrence of sins to the animal; Himself bore our sins.

The High Priest's offering took away the sins of the people once a year, but during that year they were STILL expected to bring forth the animals for their sins. Our High Priest took away the power of sin offering a permanent cleansing from it, BUT we are still expected to appropriate it by COOPERATING with the HG who DOES the works. If it were all done, then death the last enemy would be defeated, yet look around us, death still reigns from Adam to Moses because we are still under the law and it's effects SPIRITUALLY until it is all accomplished in us and thru us BY THE SPIRIT.

We have to cooperate before the Holy Spirit can do it's work? Sounds like works to me which I thought we no longer needed.

This is why He said today and tomorrow (2000 years) I will DO CURES AND CAST OUT DEVILS, but the third day, I will be perfected (completed). Who does the works? HE does. Do we have to do our part in cooperation by pressing in gaining wisdom and knowledge, growing to maturity, and that including appropriating deliverance? YES. Under the law if a man did not work, he did not eat.

But we are not under the law. This sounds like a mixture of law and grace. I may be misunderstanding you Cardinal. If I am please set me straight.

The churches are full of people that are starving to death, because they've been taught by the Jezebel spirit that rules over them, not to work, living lives of "leisure" letting another man get their bread for them, which is against the commandment given for every man to get gather his own manna for his house, and TWICE that amount on the 6th day (which is NOW).

But isn't this even in God's hands? It also says, "The Lord maketh poor, and  maketh rich (1 Sam. 2:7)

Herein lies the main problem, and that is that the churches taught that the law is not in effect because we are under grace, BUT Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away till all be fulfilled. It has to be fulfilled in us spiritually, else God is a liar. Passover, was part of the law. Pentecost, was part of the law.

I thought it had to be fulfilled in Christ? We had nothing to do with grace or law. At least that is what I thought?

Do we "observe" these feasts spiritually, or no? Yes, we do, so then all the law means something to us spiritually, because you can't take one part of the law, or you're a debtor to the whole law.

This is why I said I don't have any works of my own, any works that I do is Christ working in and through me.

Well, He "set us up" because from the beginning of the NT covenant, He made us a debtor to the law, BUT the difference is that now we have a SPIRITUAL High Priest and a spiritually mediated and ENFORCED, covenant. The Spirit IS grace, grace is not something separate that excludes the law, it FULFILLS it. My  Blessings....

I may be wrong but I don't see grace as being any part of the law. The law kills, Grace makes alive. Completely apart.  I am sorry Cardinal, I amy be misunderstanding what you are saying, I am good at that sometimes.

CHB

[Taffy]

 

So Much LIFE inthe WORD you shared Card -awesome- PTL

[thinktank]

I like the cooperating with the Holy Spirit that cardinal posted. Some christians think that living a godly life means to kill everything in them and let christ take over. But to me this does not make sense, God created us to be indivuduals, there is only one Son of God. If God wanted us to be Jesus christ he would have simply begotten a million Jesus Christs, but I believe that we are all individual parts of the body with christ as our head and our example. I think the devil wants to confuse us so that we as christians are depressed and stripps us of our individuality, by becoming Jesus clones, but I think this is twisted and takes our joy from our adoration of Christ.
 

[CHB]

TT,

I never said nor do I claim to be Christ but if Christ is in me thenm it is no longer I but Christ that works in me. He does the works. Our works are going to be burned up.

I believe we are individuals also and that Christ is the head of the body.

(2Tim. 2:11) It is a faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him. I believe onlytruth said "we all have to die to self", or something to that effect and that is true. If Christ lives in us then we are dead to sin, we have died to self and Christ reigns in us. Otherwords Christ has complete control of my body. I am in him and he is in me, we are one. Wasn't that what Jesus prayed for?  At least this is the way I see it, maybe I am nuts, I don't know?

CHB

[thinktank]

I did not say you were claiming to be Christ, I did not read your post, but now I read it you could possibly one of the people I am talking about, only you know. It is just my own personal opinion on this matter and I find it frustrating when Christians or the devil want to destroy individuality within people by making them die to self etc.

To me Jesus is our creator and created us to be individuals and that dying to self means, to live again as He intended and not to live as a carnal person. I don't know your exact opinion but a lot of christians think dying to self means to deny their personality wants and needs etc, they are killing a part of their being that Jesus created them to be, killing their true self, I see a lot of christians who are subdued and do not have the joy of the lord I think this is one of the reasons. Jesus wants us to kill the carnal self, not the spirit man within who is precious as a priceless pearl that God has named each one of us and knows the number of hairs on our head. I do not know if I am 100% correct on this issue, but when I think like this, as a co creator with Christ I feel alive, powerful and liberated( Jesus came to give life and to have it more abundantly), but when I go back to the typical christian thought of killing everything in me, life is dull, lifeless, weak and boring. (The devil came to kill, thief and destroy)

[shawn]

I like the cooperating with the Holy Spirit that cardinal posted. Some christians think that living a godly life means to kill everything in them and let christ take over. But to me this does not make sense, God created us to be indivuduals, there is only one Son of God. If God wanted us to be Jesus christ he would have simply begotten a million Jesus Christs, but I believe that we are all individual parts of the body with christ as our head and our example. I think the devil wants to confuse us so that we as christians are depressed and stripps us of our individuality, by becoming Jesus clones, but I think this is twisted and takes our joy from our adoration of Christ.
 

I don't think our carnal nature dying is stripping one of their personality.  It's merely allowing us to be everything we were meant to be in Christ.

[thinktank]

Yes Christ wants us to crucify the carnal nature, lust and the pride of life, but he doesn't want us to crucify or kill our inner man, but rather liberate our spirits, some christians crucify their spirit, I know that I have by mistake on many occasions and it has been painfull, but must see past the enemies tricks and not shoot oneself in the foot.

[Cardinal]

  @ CHB......it's a process and I am describing the process. Again, what He did, we appropriate by cooperation with the HG who does the works. Corinthians tells us what the works are, ie. the gifts of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is what comes out of the processing.

@ TT.......I understand what you mean. The Lord once told me to tell a young woman that, "He was not making cookie cutter Christians." 

[Taffy]

 
The Battle of the flesh being the theme --

Understanding the WAY- [I AM the WAY- The TRUTH and the LIFE]- through the Tabernacle\Temple pattern  incooperates much of this Discussion.

Theres Much to  Glean from the thread started some two yrs - maybe  a perusal will be beneficial

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/experiencing_tabernacle_4983.0.html

 

[Molly]

I did not say you were claiming to be Christ, I did not read your post, but now I read it you could possibly one of the people I am talking about, only you know. It is just my own personal opinion on this matter and I find it frustrating when Christians or the devil want to destroy individuality within people by making them die to self etc.

To me Jesus is our creator and created us to be individuals and that dying to self means, to live again as He intended and not to live as a carnal person. I don't know your exact opinion but a lot of christians think dying to self means to deny their personality wants and needs etc, they are killing a part of their being that Jesus created them to be, killing their true self, I see a lot of christians who are subdued and do not have the joy of the lord I think this is one of the reasons. Jesus wants us to kill the carnal self, not the spirit man within who is precious as a priceless pearl that God has named each one of us and knows the number of hairs on our head. I do not know if I am 100% correct on this issue, but when I think like this, as a co creator with Christ I feel alive, powerful and liberated( Jesus came to give life and to have it more abundantly), but when I go back to the typical christian thought of killing everything in me, life is dull, lifeless, weak and boring. (The devil came to kill, thief and destroy)

I liked that, TT.   

[micah7:9]

I did not say you were claiming to be Christ, I did not read your post, but now I read it you could possibly one of the people I am talking about, only you know. It is just my own personal opinion on this matter and I find it frustrating when Christians or the devil want to destroy individuality within people by making them die to self etc.

To me Jesus is our creator and created us to be individuals and that dying to self means, to live again as He intended and not to live as a carnal person. I don't know your exact opinion but a lot of christians think dying to self means to deny their personality wants and needs etc, they are killing a part of their being that Jesus created them to be, killing their true self, I see a lot of christians who are subdued and do not have the joy of the lord I think this is one of the reasons. Jesus wants us to kill the carnal self, not the spirit man within who is precious as a priceless pearl that God has named each one of us and knows the number of hairs on our head. I do not know if I am 100% correct on this issue, but when I think like this, as a co creator with Christ I feel alive, powerful and liberated( Jesus came to give life and to have it more abundantly), but when I go back to the typical christian thought of killing everything in me, life is dull, lifeless, weak and boring. (The devil came to kill, thief and destroy)

I liked that, TT.   

I like that too TT. 

[LS]

I have really loved this thread - thank you all! 

[thinktank]

Thank you all, I'm glad my post has been a blessing to you, I was a bit affraid of posting it at first.

But as Ls said above this has been a good thread with some great posts made.

[Nathan]

Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".[/color]

Can't quite digest this one Card, sorry . . .but I can't very well rule over my own garden unless I've been empowered by Him in the first place.  Casting my concerns into him is what is asked of me.  The overcoming doesn't come from within my own nature, it can only come through his "in" me.  And once I recognize and act on that, that act alone is evidence that I'm already with and in Him . . .it's all him from A to Z.  I know you see that as well.  But this one sentence kinda messed the rest of it up for me is all. 

It's BECAUSE I rule with him that I can then rule over my own kingdom.  Not by might, not by power . . .

It's not through my own laboring mind, my own strength, discipline, study, actions . . .it's all through him that any of those would manifest through me at all.

[CHB]

Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".[/color]

Can't quite digest this one Card, sorry . . .but I can't very well rule over my own garden unless I've been empowered by Him in the first place.  Casting my concerns into him is what is asked of me.  The overcoming doesn't come from within my own nature, it can only come through his "in" me.  And once I recognize and act on that, that act alone is evidence that I'm already with and in Him . . .it's all him from A to Z.  I know you see that as well.  But this one sentence kinda messed the rest of it up for me is all. 

It's BECAUSE I rule with him that I can then rule over my own kingdom.  Not by might, not by power . . .

It's not through my own laboring mind, my own strength, discipline, study, actions . . .it's all through him that any of those would manifest through me at all.

Nathan, I see it the same way.

CHB

[PaoloNuevo]

From THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS by Andrew Jukes:

Such was the fall of man, and it explains why death is needful for our return to God. Death is the only way out of any world in which we are. It was by death to God we fell out of God's world. And it is by death with Christ to sin and to this world that we are delivered in spirit from sin, that is the dark world, and in body from the toil and changes of this outward world. For we are, as Scripture and our own hearts tell us, not only in body in this outward world, but in our spirits are living in a spiritual world, which surely is not heaven, for no soul of man till regenerate is at rest or satisfied; and being thus fallen, the only way out of these worlds is death: so long as we live their life, we must be in them. To get out of them, therefore, we must die: die to this elemental nature, to get out of the seen world, and die to sin, to get out of the dark world, called in Scripture "the power of darkness" (Col. 1:13). And since the life of the one is toil and change, and the life of the other is dissatisfaction and inward restlessness, we must die to both if we would be free from the changes of this world, and from the restlessness and dissatisfaction in which by nature our spirits are. Christ died this double death for us, not only "to sin" (Rom. 6:10), but also "to the elements of this world" (Col. 2:20). And to be free, we also must die with Him to both. Only by such a death are we delivered.

[Nathan]

I like the cooperating with the Holy Spirit that cardinal posted. Some christians think that living a godly life means to kill everything in them and let christ take over. But to me this does not make sense, God created us to be indivuduals, there is only one Son of God. If God wanted us to be Jesus christ he would have simply begotten a million Jesus Christs, but I believe that we are all individual parts of the body with christ as our head and our example. I think the devil wants to confuse us so that we as christians are depressed and stripps us of our individuality, by becoming Jesus clones, but I think this is twisted and takes our joy from our adoration of Christ.
 

I don't think our carnal nature dying is stripping one of their personality.  It's merely allowing us to be everything we were meant to be in Christ.

I just had a conversation with a friend on email today about this very thing.

There's an old, old chorus that I used to sing growing up in church that went "in him we live, and move, and have our being . . ."  It's actually a quote from Scripture.  Singing it was a normal staple for our song services for years.  Like many MANY other hymns and choruses, the meanings of things have changed for me as my perspectives on other things have changed.  This song that gets sung is kind of an oxy moron for those who sang it . . .and for me then as well.

We claim we can move and live and have our being . . .yet that only floats as long as we live under the denominational boundary lines the church establishes and often times, enforces.  In other words, you can only move within the church's perception of who they see he is.  But now, I no longer see God as this monster judge who wathes my every move with disdain and aggrivation sketched across his face as he takes his swats at me as though I'm an annoying gnat.  But instead, my realization of this verse is not just that in him I live and move . . .but most precious to me is, I retain MY being.  I'm not conformed to a disciplinary set of rules, I'm free to retain my personality in him.  Lucky for me . .otherwise I'm totally screwed!!