Author Topic: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?  (Read 4876 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« on: December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM »
I'll take the dive in the cold water. Hot lava?

Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?
I don't even know how to pray...

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Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?
I learn 0 from the Bible. It just doesn't stick. I wander of after 2 verses.
A topic study works better for me.

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Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?
I only know atheists and muslims.

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Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?
Not sure I have real faith. If yes then the answer is yes.

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Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?
UR

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Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?
I think there are only doctrine teachers...

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Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?

I think there is no sounds orthodox theology. To much disagreements between views.
I also think people often don't know they twist things....

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Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?

How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14
How you know your are a qualified fruit inspector? You show me 100 religions/denominations and I show you 1000 self appointed supreme fruit inspectors....


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Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).
You only can answer that if you are a perfect fruit inspector. Unless your name is Father/Son/HS you are not that inspector.

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The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.
Spoken as a true ET  :laughing7:
I would say false.

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Jesus didn't spend so much time warning us about the dire consequences of sin and disobedience, if there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Or tell us He was the ONLY way to the Father, if there were some other way. Jesus is not Mr. Rogers or Barney the dinosaur.

Not Barney?  :sigh:


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Q: "Should we form universalist congregations?"

A: "NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a 'universalist' congregation makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that!
Simply put an UR church for me would be a church that teaches from YLT/Rotherham/... instead of from KJV
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2008, 08:05:45 AM »

Not sure I have real faith. If yes then the answer is yes.

One of the best definitions of faith I ever heard was something like; a true display of total faith is being able to jump out of an airplane and trusting your parachute to open.
That's applying statitics that are proven over and over again. Faith is being the first parachute jumper. And not even that because it's tested before the jump. Faith is believing is something you don't feel, know, hear, see, smell. Something completly untested.


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Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?

I think there are only doctrine teachers...?

I'd say that's not a problem, if it's essential i.e. Christ centered doctrine.

All doctrines claim to be Christ centered...

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Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?


I think there is no sound orthodox theology. To much disagreements between views.
I also think people often don't know they twist things....


Well, I think if the focus is on something other than Christ, then that's bound to be the case.

They all focus on Christ. Their interpretations of His teaching.

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Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?


How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14
I think we have a chicken-egg problem here. Even decieved people honestly believe they understand the word correctly.
If you know you are decieved you aren't deceived....

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How you know your are a qualified fruit inspector? You show me 100 religions/denominations and I show you 1000 self appointed supreme fruit inspectors....

I believe it's a matter of how well you know God's Word for yourself. People that get taken in by false or just bad teachers, are invariably Biblically illiterate. I don't mean that in a condescending way. but the more familiar with the Bible you are, the better equipped you are.
I have to disagree. Indoctrinated. Misguided. Vain are all words that can replace 'equipped'.
Just as an example take Christianity vs Jews. Noone can deny many Jews are very serious studiers of the OT. They simply claim, with proof, Jesus is fake. Who's right? Jew or Christian who have proof Jesus is real? I'm sure both are honest in their believes. Equally smart. But still their conclusion is the oppossite. At least 1 is wrong...


Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).

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You only can answer that if you are a perfect fruit inspector. Unless your name is Father/Son/HS you are not that inspector.

I don't think you have to be a perfect fruit inspector, just an educated one. Of course the more time you spend in the Word and in prayer, the more you have the Father/Son/HS in you.
Same answer as above.

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The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.

Spoken as a true ET  :laughing7:
I would say false.

Well, I'd say spoken like a true Christian. Because that's the advice that I got from a true Christian. His main focus is on his relationship with Jesus. As far as anything else goes; baptism, tongues, healing, prophecy, Pentecostalism, Calvinism, Arminism, UR etc, etc. They're interesting topics for conversation to him, but that's all.

But how can you have a true relationship without knowing Jesus?
Doesn't the Bible say you know a tree by its fruit. You can't know tree Jesus without studying His fruits. His fruits are His opinion on all the words you wrote above. What kind of marriage would you have if after 50 years you don't even know your wifes favorite music, color, etc. Without such knowledge your marriage is based on sex. 50 years of one-night-stands. Likely enjoyable but still no real relationshup.  :laughing7:

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Simply put an UR church for me would be a church that teaches from YLT/Rotherham/... instead of from KJV


Simply put? You mean like an ET?! :eek:

They're all the same Word of God, only worded differently. I'd say to maybe start out with the translation called "The Message" which I often refer to, to get the gist or concept of certain scripture. As far as teaching goes, I'd say it's more important what the teacher is teaching and what the focus is, rather than what he teaches from whether it be KJV, NKJV, NSAB, NIV, YLT, Rotherham…I think YLT and Rotherham, for me at least, are good for research. But for just plain reading to understand God better, it's NIV, NSAB, or The Message. The only reason I have a KJV, is because I have a Strong's Concordance. My Young's Concordance is on the way. That reminds me, I need to go check my mailbox.
I mainly use KJV because it's linked to Strongs in the software I use. I use it to find things but then I switch to another Bible for a better translation.
About the Bibles I had an example written down but I deleted it because it possible hurts some people.
That's why I just act like I know something written in the Bible. :winkgrin:
The parable of the seed in good soil, average soil and rocks.
The KJV is average soil at best. Because of the translation errors/bias it is easily misunderstood and the crop dies.
A good farmer can still get good crops with fertilizer (=cross checking lexicons etc) but it's not the prefered way of farming because the same investment in time would have yielded extra crops (=knowledge) on the good soil that from the start was already as good as the fertilized average soil.
From peronal experience I can say that the translation of certain words in all Bible versions I know are rocky ground that scares of potential believers. The saddest part of it all is that the Jews already discovered that centuries ago. But still 'we' stick to rocky ground translation.


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And just in hopes of not coming off as too holier-than-thou

You most likely are...  :thumbsup:


« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 08:07:58 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline B_T

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2008, 11:14:24 AM »
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Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?

Yes

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Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?

Hmm.. yes. Sometimes I even find the Bible boring (especially the old testament and Chronicles)

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Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?

Sometimes...

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Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?

Yes!

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Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?

Probably the second

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Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?

I don't think so

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Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?

Oh, I'm definitely angry at such people.

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Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?

No, I don't spend enough time in the Word of God at all...

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How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14

Kooks are all around me.

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Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).

Actually, I do believe there is punishment and there is wrath...

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The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.

I don't take the Bible literally, but metaphorically.


Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2008, 01:53:34 AM »
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

Don't know what you mean to gain from this topic, but I do think it deserves answers...

Don't know WHAT your age or experience IS... nor WHAT you have been or are going thru at present, ...but...

Here are some answers from a 63 year old man, presently battling cancer (had CANCER surgery 3 months ago, and gotta go thru radiation therapy next month), ...and I have been a Christian for 33 years (20 w/Salvation Army [hell believers] and 5 w/SDA - 7 Day Adventists [annhilation believers]),  ...8 as an advocate and believer in UR...

I have stated these things, just a preface note to you, to let you know WHO is answering you, ...and WHAT I am presently going thru!  :Sparkletooth:

On with it!  :reachout:

Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?

UR ...IS... the GOSPEL... which is my mission, and encompasses much of my Prayer life which is engaged 24/7... not just 5 minutes before bed or 60 seconds before eating...

I think it is important to define PRAYER...  As I see it, ...it is communication (IN RELATIONSHIP) both to and FROM God...

PRAYER does not require: EYES CLOSED, ON bended KNEE, IN CHURCH, or with "AMEN" at the end...  It is the ON-GOING relationship communication one has in the HEART with ones Maker...  GOD is present with ALL, at ALL TIMES...

When one comes to conscious acknowledgement and involvement in that presence, one is IN PRAYER.  Which is why Paul recommended we PRAY ...WITHOUT CEASING... (1 Thess 5:17)

Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?

I spend most of my DAY in the Bible, which is PERMEATED with UR... so I don't see how the TWO can be separated by a question of being involved with one, more than the "other"?

If the message of the WORD is UR and it is to be brought to the World... then how may one separate this knowledge from the WORD...

"Reading" the WORD is a good thing... but absorbing the "reading" is the more important facet, IMHO...

Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?

In REAL LIFE?  My communication with YOU is in REAL LIFE Brian... If I am present in the flesh as that communication is made, I might better (or worse) communicate with you...  Just being present IN FLESH, does not mean that the fellowship is on a higher plane, nor that it is destined to be better...

I have many friends with which I communicate with, that I have NEVER met in the FLESH... YET... I can truly say, that my relationship with them, is BETTER than many (certainly not all), which I am in communication with, face to face.

People are people bro... they can either get along or not... just because we meet "in person", does not gurantee the fellowship as golden... Don't get me wrong... I love face to face fellowship... but do not wish my ears to hear, what my Father has revealed to me as LIES...  You are and will be INFLUENCED by that which you avail yourself...  :dontknow:

As I see it, ...Brothers and sisters IN CHRIST are ALL MEN... for CHRIST died for and to redeem, ALL MEN, and they are therefore IN CHRIST in the ETERNAL perspective...

I do NOT live SPIRITUALLY, any longer in TIME perspective

I do not expect anything from anyone, for concerning the pathway position in TIME each person finds himself... each is on his own journey of revelation...

I spend my days and nights with the ETERNAL ONE... which directs my steps ...and accordingly, I minister to those which HE sends my way...

If you wish an answer about those who "believe" JESUS is Lord, and DONT believe in UR... most ALL the people I am in contact with in my life are in this mindset...  

It is my observation, that believing in UR does not set one apart from another... it brings men together when it is revealed by GOD...  

The only separation that is caused is when UR, like any other observation of the WORD, is FORCE-FED to another in an individual attempt to change that one... instead of laying it before, and then leave it up to GOD, as to whether or not it is time for UR's revelation in their life...

CHANGE of a HEART is GOD's Work, not mine... at best, I am in hopes to be a tool in His hand, nothing more...

I NEVER preach UR to folks... I offer to them this TRUTH (or any other TRUTH which GOD has revealed to me) ...to consider,  ...and then leave it in GOD's capable hands to use or NOT USE that information as HE see fit!

Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?

NO... I believe the COMPLETE "SOVEREIGNTY and ALMIGHTINESS" of GOD is the paramount "aspect" of my FAITH, ...for my FAITH is NOT my own... it is that which I recieve FROM HIM (Heb 12:2 / Rom 12:3)

My LIFE is NOT my own (1 Cor 7:23) for I am bought with a PRICE...  And the WILL exercised in me [IN CHRIST] is not my own, for the HEAD (1 Cor 11:3 / 12:6-27) of the Body in which I (SPIRITUALLY) reside makes ALL CALLS as to the life, its chronology and destiny of HIS BODY...

Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?

As I said before Brian... How can you separate the two?  UR ...IS...

the GOSPEL  ...of CHRIST (Gal 1:7 / 2 Cor 10:14),

...the GOSPEL of PEACE (Eph 6:15 / Rom 10:15),

...the GOSPEL of RECONCILIATION (2 Cor 5:18-19),

...the GOSPEL of DELIVERANCE for ALL (1 Tim 4:9-11)...  

This IS the WORD bro!  In its presentation I am IN and AMIDST the WORD!

If one is IN the WORD unselfishly, without motive or seeking to gain religious validation... Rather is SEEKING with ALL the HEART to KNOW the TRUTH, ...this shall be the MESSAGE which comes forth from that SEEKING and study... And IN that process is IN the WORD...

To "read" 5 or 10 chapters a day, and not absorb any portion of the WORK of God in that reading, to me, is time spent without reward...  To study with the specific PURPOSE of gaining TRUTHFUL INSIGHT (revelation) which DWELLS in the WORD, is the REWARD we are to seek...

Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?

What makes a "TEACHER, ..."QUALIFIED" according to your thinking, Brian?

I was (in my 33 years of believing) taught by several Men and Women... not just one... And in retrospect... NONE of them, as I see it, were "QUALIFIED"...

Any GAIN which was realized by me, was GOD using them to ENLIGHTEN me, not THEM and any supposed "QUALIFICATIONS" men think they have...

I questioned some of them... and they did NOT answer me...  :thumbdown:

They had

"this credential" -- seminary / Bible college or

"that credential" minister of MANY years (20, 30, 40... whatever)

But would NOT believe what the Bible SAYS... only what their "church" said it SAYS, or their "seminary" said it SAYS... but when DIRECTLY questioned... they needed to ADD WORDS to the WORD ...in order to establish their view and thereby, their "credentials"...

Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?

Might I pause here for a moment, and note that my "teacher" is GOD...

Men place things before me... but GOD teaches as to whether these offerings are valid or no... by HIS LEADINGS in my pursuit of Him...

Might I also say that I learn things DAILY.... and DO NOT "know it all"... however... I can discuss with anyone, because they are discussing with what GOD has given me, not ME...

Concerning "sound orthodox theology"... what theology?  And what do you note as the DETERMINING factor that ESTABLISHES it is, ..."SOUND"?  

What, if anything in particular have you determined as, TWISTED? And by WHOM?  :dunno: ..."TWISTED" in what way?  :dontknow:

Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?

Name something bro, and then let's discuss,  ...and then let the discussion reveal WHO is the "kook"!  :laughing7:

How do you spot  kooks?


Please!  Are you the "kook police"?   :laughing7:

A muslim shall believe YOU or I (as believers in CHRIST) are the "kooks" Brian  :dontknow:

Or a Hindu, or a Buddahist, or a Shintoist, or an Athiest... Who is the "kook" in the final analysis, ...is a matter of individual perspective brother...

You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14

This is all well & good Brian... but those who are solidly founded in their beliefs will not easily be "blown about"

What "belief" do you wish to discuss?  Let's see where the "fruit" lies...

Just out of curiousity, are you an ET believer? :dunno:  ...and if so... get to the point!

So far you seem to be infatuated with the idea that those who believe UR, do not have other beliefs in their lives which are working within them...

Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention?


The very same question could be asked of you Brian...  :dontknow:

Whom do you suggest can determine this brother?  Your pastor?  

I think the GOD which ONE believes in, is the God which ONE finds oneself...  :dontknow:

He said to the individual HEART:  Jer 29:13 ...and ye shall seek Me, and FIND, when ye shall SEARCH with ALL your HEART...

This verse is noting men [YE] as INDIVIDUALS, not as "congregations or denominations, or religions"...

How many are THAT dedicated Brian?  Are you?  :dontknow:  (I don't doubt you are, just asking!)... If you ARE... then YOU shall find the GOD of the BIBLE... YHVH!

Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).

Here's the deal from my perspective... AIDS, CANCER, HEART DISEASE, MURDER, RAPE, WAR, HURRICANES, FAMINE, TORNADOES, NUCLEAR WEAPONS, FLOODS, ADULTERY, CHILD ABUSE, EMBEZZLING, etc... etc... are but a FEW of the things which EVIL presents to us in this life... which RESULTS have been wrought by SINFUL behavior of our own, and of our ancestors...

It IS the WRATH of GOD... and it IS revealed NOW (Rom 2:18) (you reap what you sew)...

WRATH and SUFFERING are part of being molded in the IMAGE of CHRIST, Brian, ...get used to it!  As I said from the top of this answer... I am battling CANCER at 63!  Until you should join me in such a life threatening position, you have little to say to me...

GOD's WRATH, and the SUFFERING endured from it, is part of the WORKINGS of JOY which shall be revealed at its conclusion... The suffering we endure in this life is nothing by comparison to the JOY to come... as Paul rightly noted under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: (Rom 8:18)

We follow our SAVIOR who was MADE PERFECT [complete] through SUFFERING: (Heb 2:9) ...in other words, without SUFFERING we cannot be COMPLETE... nor can we be PERFECT! :dontknow:

PART of the IMAGE of CHRIST is SUFFERING bro...

The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.

I agree... but sometimes DETAILED answers are necessary for DETAILED questions!  :laughing7:

There is no such "golden rule of Good Biblical interpretation"... that is your personal observation... however... all questions cannot be answered by "yes or no" which is an example of your "golden rule"

Jesus didn't spend so much time warning us about the dire consequences of sin and disobedience, if there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Or tell us He was the ONLY way to the Father, if there were some other way. Jesus is not Mr. Rogers or Barney the dinosaur.

Stay in prayer. Stay in the Bible. Stay in good Bible teaching Christ centered church.

And what "church do you suggest Brian?  I have tried many... and ALL of them claim to be "CHRIST centered"

I would rather remain in the fellowship of GOD, isolated from RELIGION which claims to be "CHRIST centered", but CONDEMNS the majority of MANKIND to NEVER ENDING FIRE...

Publishing to the World that GOD is a GOD of PUNISHMENTS which do NOT match the crimea... and Unending TORMENTS emerging from the hand of "LOVE" (for GOD claims that distinction as defining Himself)...

Which "CHRIST centered" doctrine... :rolleye: ...BREAKS the SCRIPTURE and its message in so many places it is pathetic...

So enlighten me brother Brian... what "church" should I go to where not only LOVE is present but TRUTH as well...   :declare:
 
The more you do so, the closer you'll get to God. The closer you get to God the less you'll focus on UR exclusively, and learn to trust Him enough to leave all the consequences up to Him.

Boy, my friend... your message is about CONSEQUENCES eh?  I don't agree with that at ALL!  THIS LIFE is ALREADY, full of CONSEQUENCES... which ALL suffer and WILL suffer in various degrees...

Now you give us a vision, ...of MORE of the SAME to look forward to?  GOD with His WRATH at the end of this LIVING ride?   Please!  :wacko2:  There is NO LOVE nor POSITIVENESS in this brand of message!

GOD demands we FORGIVE our ENEMIES, BLESS them, etc... and then HE does the OPPOSITE?  This is the astray message of Orthodoxy, bro...  Swallow it if you must, as for me, ...it makes me GAG!  :eeew:

Sorry bro.. thanks, ...but NO THANKS! :mnah:  this advice of yours, is DEFINITELY not for me... others who read it, can do with it what they will with it...  :dontknow:

Let me ask you:

Why should I NOT focus upon THE ONLY MESSAGE that proposes that
(1) GOD ...IS... forgiving, that
(2) GOD ...IS... victorious, ...that
(3) GOD ...IS... impartial to men, ...that
(4) GOD ...IS... love and is NOT 2 faced!  (He loves you but if you dont LISTEN, He'll BURN you FOREVER!)

Nah... you can have it Brian... I been there, done that...  :thumbdown:

______________________________________________________________

I'll comment on GREGORY MacDONALD in the next post... (it will be shorter!)


peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2008, 01:55:44 AM »
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

RE:   GREGORY MacDONALD (whoever that is?)  which wrote this crap:

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Q: "Should we form universalist congregations?"

A: "NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a 'universalist' congregation makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that!

I want to be part of a church that is Trinitarian, Christ-centered, Spirit-filled, missional and loves people. If they also happen to teach universalism (in appropriate contexts - see my post on Origen) then great. Indeed, I would like it that they did. But if they taught eternal conscious torment then I'd rather be with them than a church that was all about universalism.

 :omg:  This is LOVE? =  :punish: :spank: :thewife: 

Is THIS your "church" GREGORY

Trinitarian, GREGORY?  (Where is this term in the Bible)

Eternal conscious torment ...what if your KIDS were among them GREGORY? Or your Mom or your Dad, or your Grandma?   Will you light the match of their torment, and then go back to GLEEFULLY singing your choruses?  Or stay and APPLAUD their misery?  :mshock:  Is that it GREGORY?  Is that your picture of LOVE?

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Don't get me wrong. I really do think that universalism is true (and I rejoice in it!)


 :Yeahright: GREGORY!

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and I'd be very happy to be part of a church that was evangelical universalist so long as the universalism was simmering away in its background. It is simply that I think we need to put universalism in its place. It is good news. It is important but it is not fundamental to healthy and obedient Christian living. Indeed some of the best churches I know believe in eternal conscious torment. Bless them Lord!" - Gregory MacDonald

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php?sid=25cb4af0b0e4100a88ffbd567bd942cf

This is like saying that HITLER's atrocious behavior was one of the BEST events ever employed, and we should be about telling everyone how GOOD it was! (as it so aptly parallel's ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT) 

"Hitler" and his DEMENTED operation, only gave a PREVIEW of what these "Eternal conscious torment" churches are teaching AS "GOOD"!

Gregory MacDonald... is obviously about CHURCH, ...NOT about LOVE... :mnah:

This, sadly verified by his own words, ...is sorrowfully evident!  :crywipe:

GREGORY would rather be about promoting ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT as the outreach of a "GOOD CHURCH", ...then to be in a church which should promote that GOD LOVES ALL MEN, and shall SAVE them ALL... please!  An ILLOGICAL statement made  of a disturbed mind and heart!  :eek:  :upset:


peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 02:24:57 AM »
I'm an evangelical Christian. I might eventually call myself an evangelical Christian universalist. The only difference between what I believe, and the evangelical church I go to is; the definition of hell. Part of being an evangelical to me means being a Trinitarian. As opposed to say believing Jesus is a lesser created being (or actually the archangel Michael), and the Holy Spirit is an it, a thing, a force.

The view I follow is:
The Godhead (Trinity)
We believe in one God, eternally existing in three Persons (or a Tri-unity or Trinity). The Godhead consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each member of the one being of God is co-eternal in being, co-identical in nature, co-equal in power and glory; all having the same attributes and perfection. (Deut 6:4-5; 2 Cor 13:14; Matt 28:18-19)
Section 3.       
The Person and Work of Jesus
(1) We recognize Jesus as the eternal Son of God, who became man, without ever ceasing to be God, having been conceived by the Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary that He might reveal God and redeem sinful men. (John 1:1-2; John 1:14; John 1:18; Luke 1:35)
(2)We believe that Jesus accomplished our complete redemption through His death on the cross, as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins. This redemption is made sure to us by His literal and physical resurrection from the dead. (Rom 3:24-25; Rom 5:8-10; 1 Peter 2:24; Eph 1:7)
(3) We fully accept as truth that Jesus ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God the Father. There He fulfills His role as High Priest, Intercessor, and Advocate on behalf of the believer. (Acts 1:9-11; Rom 8:34; 1 Tim 2:5; Heb 1:3; Heb 6:19-20; Heb 7:24; Heb 9:24; 1 John 2:1-2)
Section 4. The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit
(1) We believe that the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person, possessing all the attributes of deity, and that He is equally God, the third person of the Holy Trinity. (Matt 28:18-19; Acts 5:3-5; 2 Cor 13:14)
(2) We believe that the Holy Spirit is the agent of God in regeneration, sanctification, baptizing all believers into the body of Jesus, indwelling equally and permanently every believer and sealing them unto the day of redemption. (Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 6:11; 12:12-14; Eph 1:13-14)
(3) We believe that every un-regenerated person, the moment he exercises believing faith in Jesus, as his Savior, immediately is given the Holy Spirit. (Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 3:16, 6:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Thess 4:8)
(4)  We believe that the Holy Spirit is the Divine Teacher who guides believers into all truth (John 16:1-15); that He bestows spiritual gifts upon each believer (1 Cor 12-14); and that it is the responsibility of all the saved to be filled (controlled) with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) and faithful to what God has entrusted to them.


The evangelical church I go to does not teach ET. What I mean by that is, it is an entire spectrum of the Bible that all points to Christ teaching church. Every service is a Bible study, rather than a sermon. We don't do regular Bible studies on ET. Everyone there is very loving and supportive of one another. They all LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Lord.

They are not a bunch of heartless sadistic full of crap monsters.

I went 15 years without attending church. And no, it had nothing to do with church being evil, or the congregation being hypocrites etc. Or anything having to do with ET. Being a loner by nature, I lapsed into becoming a virtual recluse.

Now that I'm back in church, I LOVE IT. I LOVE THEM. WE LOVE THE LORD! That's what matters. Believe it or not, we manage to spend A LOT of time together, without talking about ET. There is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more going on than ET there. That I believe was MacDonald's point. You can be UR while going to an "ET church". But the thing is, my church isn't an ET church. It's a Body of Christ. Not a body of ET. It's hardly even what I'd call a "church". I'd call it a Fellowship.

Yes, I get to have my cake and eat it too. I can believe in UR and belong to a hand shaking, back slapping, hugging fellowship of the Body of Christ.

You asked what I consider to be a qualified teacher.
Here are three links to examples of those whom I consider qualified teachers.
http://www.intouch.org/site/c.dhKHIXPKIuE/b.2264355/k.BE55/Home.htm
http://www.thenarrowpath.com/
http://www.messiahschristianfellowship.org/

What concerns me is the idea of people spending virtually all of their time in UR forums and reading one UR book and article after another, and nothing else. I consider UR to be a PART of my Christianity, not the main focus.

The main focus is trust and faith in Jesus. Whether His ultimate judgment is ET, Annihilationism or UR, to have complete and total faith in Him.

Gregory MacDonald is a member of a UR forum.
http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php?sid=25cb4af0b0e4100a88ffbd567bd942cf

Give it a looksee. You might not be as appalled as you might  think.

Give Stanley, Gregg or Bertoli a listen to. You might not be as appalled as you might think.

Like I said Brian... been there, done that (all of the above  :heat:)...

I do not demean you for "where you ARE", ...You ARE where GOD decides you ARE, whenever and wherever, ...you ARE...  :cloud9:

Btw...

(1) "GODHEAD", does NOT mean "trinity"... look up the 3 words which are translated "GODHEAD"...  NONE of these words mean: "committee of 3" that equals ONE GOD... YHVH God alone, is GOD... 

JESUS CHRIST is the 1st Son (offspring), of many Sons...  :yes:

(2)  The 3 links you provided above DO NOT answer my question to you... I didn't ask for examples of "teachers" that you think are "QUALIFIED"... :mnah:

I asked you:

Quote from: willieH
What makes a "TEACHER, ..."QUALIFIED" according to your thinking, Brian?

In other words... How do YOU determine this or that guy is a "QUALIFIED" teacher Brian? 

If you are unable to answer this question, then the word "QUALIFIED" concerning these teachers, is thereby called into question...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH   :giveheart:
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 02:38:18 AM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 03:28:47 AM »
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

Hey brother, you asked  SEVERAL questions in your OP...   :JCThink:

How about answering a few of the ones I asked you?  (in reply #7)  :dunno:

such as:

Quote from: willieH
Concerning "sound orthodox theology"... what theology?  And what do you note as the DETERMINING factor that ESTABLISHES it is, ..."SOUND"?

And concerning "twisting":

Quote from: willieH
What, if anything in particular have you determined as, TWISTED? And by WHOM?   ..."TWISTED" in what way?
 

And let's not forget this one:

Quote from: willieH
Why should I NOT focus upon THE ONLY MESSAGE that proposes that

(1) GOD ...IS... forgiving, ...that
(2) GOD ...IS... victorious, ...that
(3) GOD ...IS... impartial to men, ...that
(4) GOD ...IS... love and is NOT 2 faced!  (He loves you but if you dont LISTEN, He'll BURN you FOREVER!)


One by one, I answered yours!!!   :friendstu:  How about doing the same?  ... :dunno:




PeacE...

...willieH   :ty:

Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 05:36:03 AM »
Quote from: ww
That's applying statitics that are proven over and over again. Faith is being the first parachute jumper. And not even that because it's tested before the jump. Faith is believing is something you don't feel, know, hear, see, smell. Something completly untested.



Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it our ancestors were approved.

 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



"the substance"

G5287
ὑπόστασις
hupostasis
hoop-os'-tas-is
From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident, person, substance.


Isaiah 28:16
[ A Cornerstone in Zion ] Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: " Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.


13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

--Eph 6





« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 05:42:36 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 12:45:15 PM »
Molly,

If there is evidence is it called faith?

What Jesus a believer of was He a 'knower' ?



1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2008, 04:41:59 PM »

Hi Brian,  peoples perception of either title is a bigger problem.   I can say I am a universalist and Christians will say things that show they have no interest in talking to "ME" about what I believe.  What perception do people have of Christians?  Is it the perception people have based on organized religion?  I would say yes.    Maybe a better title would be "Do you search for truth in scripture, or just follow the dogma?"   


Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?

No,  If a person does not pray in hopes that the will of God be done then it does not matter if you are a universalist or a Christian


Quote
Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?

No, but is it more "christian" to spend more time with the latest popular book or dvd series? I do find it interesting that your series of questions points towards authors or people that you like.  Do you spend more time in your bible than reading what they write?  Hope so.

Quote
Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?

The lie is that I have to be in person with people to fellowship in the spirit.  Many Christian sermons are built around critisizing internet fellowship when neither should go away. Also it is a deception that a person is fellowshipping if they have to hide what they really believe.  Sure, a person does not have to rail on and on about UR in every group and more than someone has to go an about the dangers of hell.   But if a person is in a group and keeps quiet about all men being saved in order to get along with the eternal hell believers then that is NOT, I repeat NOT fellowship, it is co-dependance.


Quote
Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?

For me it is something I always knew but never really has a title for it till later in life.  I would say now, yes.

Quote
Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?

UR for me is a byproduct of that.

Quote
Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?

Yes,  several, God, Jesus, holy spirit, scripture.   Will you question their qualifications?

Quote
Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?

Define sound orthodox theology.


Quote
Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?

Yep, John Hagee is a kook to name one.

Quote
How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14

Can a kook be a person who is disguising their contempt for UR with a bunch of questions designed to favor traditional Christianity?


Quote
Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).

A God of wrath does not contradict UR.   I wonder, is being a Christian believing the convoluted explanation that the God of Love that never fails will allow suffering FOREVER in the pit of Hell with no hope whatsoever?

Quote
The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.

Since we are being asked how much time we spend in the bible, please provide the scripture for this  golden rule.


Quote
Jesus didn't spend so much time warning us about the dire consequences of sin and disobedience, if there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Or tell us He was the ONLY way to the Father, if there were some other way. Jesus is not Mr. Rogers or Barney the dinosaur.

Unitarian Universalism embraces what you are talking about here primarily, it does not represent Christian Universalism in general.     Just like in Christianity, you have a lot of variation in what people believe.   Christian universalism does not remove Gods judgment.  In christianity you have variations on eternal HELL,  from grotesque torture to just a deep sorrow.  Which is it?

Quote
Stay in prayer. Stay in the Bible. Stay in good Bible teaching Christ centered church.
The more you do so, the closer you'll get to God. The closer you get to God the less you'll focus on UR exclusively, and learn to trust Him enough to leave all the consequences up to Him.

I'll stay in a church when I can be open and honest about my beliefs and they accept me in the manner that you want universalists to accept the teaching of eternal hellfire.   Getting closer to God does not involve hiding my beliefs for the sake of the church congregation. 

Every church I have been in if I do not go along with what accepted to be taught in that church, I am accused of starting trouble.  But thats not what my intent ever is it is to express what I believe.  The perspective of study that brought UR to my door also questions many other things concerning traditional theology so it is pointing those things out.

Thats one thing that most people are not seeing that critisize those who do not attend church, you think that the greater good is being done by church congregations but the problem is that you must conform to the teachings of whatever "church" your going to.   Thats why there are so many different names and demoninations.

I think it is great that people find a traditional church that might teach eternal hell but allows the thought of its members that God will save everyone.   But they are few and far between and it hinders my walk with God to focus only on a Church and not my walk with him.




Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 06:30:49 PM »
Molly,

If there is evidence is it called faith?

What Jesus a believer of was He a 'knower' ?




Faith is the evidence.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 06:37:37 PM »
Molly,

If there is evidence is it called faith?
What Jesus a believer of was He a 'knower' ?
Faith is the evidence.
:dontknow:
Don't understand that. Must be something spiritual I guess  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2008, 06:48:03 PM »
Molly,

If there is evidence is it called faith?
What Jesus a believer of was He a 'knower' ?
Faith is the evidence.
:dontknow:
Don't understand that. Must be something spiritual I guess  :laughing7:
That's what the apostle is saying--Faith is the evidence [of things unseen.] 

Faith is a thing which has substance.  But all you need is faith the size of a mustard seed to get started...

Maybe it would be clearer if you thought of some great scientist or inventor who has evidence of something which is not yet made manifest in the world simply through his faith that it is true.  How about the Wright Brothers, as an example?  Or the first wireless electric light--Tesla?


« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 06:50:25 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2008, 06:50:33 PM »
So instead op a scientific theory a spiritual theory?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2008, 06:54:37 PM »
So instead op a scientific theory a spiritual theory?
Real science is spiritual.  Just like the best music is spiritual.

Tesla saw visions of his inventions before he created them.  Mozart wrote whole symphonies in one sitting without correction.


Offline Taffy

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 07:10:23 PM »
Molly,

If there is evidence is it called faith?

What Jesus a believer of was He a 'knower' ?




Faith is the evidence.
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Or Faith is The Substance ( of the Hidden Hope which lays within=Christ Our HOPE of Glory) making HIM the Evidence of things Not seen.
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 07:15:50 PM »
Molly,

If there is evidence is it called faith?

What Jesus a believer of was He a 'knower' ?




Faith is the evidence.
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Or Faith is The Substance ( of the Hidden Hope which lays within=Christ Our HOPE of Glory) making HIM the Evidence of things Not seen.

Yes.  We are standing on a sure foundation, which has substance...


24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


--Mat 7

Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2008, 11:05:10 PM »
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

first, thanks for the response!  :cloud9:

Like I said Brian... been there, done that (all of the above  :heat:)...

I get the feeling it was a bad experience for you.

Well let me see... I was a back slapped, congratulated Music leader in the Salvation Army for close to 20 years... And later a back slapped, congratulated Music minister in the 7th Day Adventist church for about 5 years...

Neither of these churches provided a bad experience, until.......  I left the continental US to go to Alaska for 3 months (during membership with S.A)... on that trip, NO ONE from the "church" communicated with us, with the exception of a "care package" sent by the pastors wife.  Then we got back, and waited... MONTHS went by, and NO ONE called, or visited us (even though we were LONG established members who's home info was known by many)...

We joined the SDA for a time (because our Christian experience actually began there), and left it because we tired of the ANNHILATION messages, and other various  dialogue which was other than truth... 

Both of these churches have WONDERFUL people in them... and I KNOW that I shall see their Salvation alongside mine...  :bgdance:  ....however... I do not subject myself to hypocrisy, nor my ears to FALSE teachings...

I could not and would not stand amongst them and OBJECT to their teachings, as I would be removed for such a disruption, and all that would be accomplished would be them, deciding me, ...a NUT!  Instead... I did as the WORD calls to do: (Rev 18:4)

And speak the message I am called to speak, OUTSIDE the walls of the "church"...

I have always taught my children (and grandchildren) as my own mother & father taught me,  ...that any prolonged association, will INFLUENCE... If you hang at a drug house, you will eventually try drugs... if you hang out in a bar, you WILL have a drink...  So if you wish GOOD to influence you, then hang around influence that is GOOD...

This does not mean that a "bar" is evil... JESUS went into such environments, ...what it DOES MEAN is that if you invest yourself in and amongst this environment, you shall be influenced by it...

I am a musician which makes a living playing in this environment, but I am only THERE on the evenings I play... when I play, I minister within the bar, both in music and in the WORD... but when I am not playing, ...I am NOT THERE!

If one hangs with a group of CRIMINALS and the cops come to bust that ring, that ONE will be arrested as well along with the criminals... 

If LIES are being taught amidst a group that "comes in the name" of JESUS, and YOU are among and IN SUPPORT of those teaching those lies, their JUDGMENT, shall also become YOURS... as follows:

JESUS said: 

Matt 7:21-23 

21  NOT every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven [which is here and now]; but he that DOETH the will of My Father which is in heaven...
22  MANY will say to Me, Lord, Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name dones MANY wonderful works?
23  And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from Me, ye that work iniquity...


Have you ever considered that these of whom JESUS spoke, are BELIEVERS Brian? 

They called Him LORD (which can only be DONE BY the Holy Spirit -- 1 Cor 12:3)  and appears that they were, ..."coming in the name of CHRIST",  ...supposedly doing, the WILL of God? 

Whatupwidat?   :dunno:

:director: ...I'll tell you "whatupwidat"!!! 

These were claiming CHRIST's WORK as their own... They claim THEY decided their Salvation by Accepting Him... When He plainly said "Ye have NOT chosen Me, but I've Chosen YOU"...

These were preaching the name of CHRIST (vs 22 - prophesied)... WHO do you suppose, does that Brian?  Do not the "churches" do this?

JESUS also said:

Matt 24:5  For MANY [not FEW] ...shall come in My name saying I am CHRIST, and shall DECIEVE, ...MANY!

What "MANY" do you think come in JESUS' name Brian? 

Is it not the ("many") "Christian churches"?  What other entity which can be called "MANY", ...which come (to the world) "in His name", saying He is the CHRIST [annointed, messiah]???  :dontknow:

Do the Buddhists or Muslims do this bro?  :dontknow:  Do the athiests do this? :mnah:

I'll answer the rest of this post in another... thanks for listening brother... please consider what I have said here... but you are welcome to stand where you will,  regardless...  :cloud9:




PeacE...

...willieH   :ty:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2008, 11:19:47 PM »
Quote
I could not and would not stand amongst them and OBJECT to their teachings, as I would be removed for such a disruption, and all that would be accomplished would be them, deciding me, ...a NUT!  Instead... I did as the WORD calls to do: (Rev 18:4)

Willie,  Your post, dude,  I don't know if you will like this, we have had our differences before, but this one..... I have to say.



:goodpost:        :laughing7:



Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 01:09:43 AM »
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH
I do not demean you for "where you ARE", ...You ARE where GOD decides you ARE, whenever and wherever, ...you ARE...  :cloud9:

Btw...

(1) "GODHEAD", does NOT mean "trinity"... look up the 3 words which are translated "GODHEAD"...  NONE of these words mean: "committee of 3" that equals ONE GOD... YHVH God alone, is GOD... 

JESUS CHRIST is the 1st Son (offspring), of many Sons...  :yes:

Quote from: Brian
Then why is Jesus called YHVH so many times? Why is he worshiped by his apostles, and in Heaven during John's vision, when we are to only worship YHVH?

The ONE they were WORSHIPING was the FULLNESS of YHVH that was IN CHRIST...

Before CHRIST died on the cross, that FULLNESS was removed... to which CHRIST said this:

Mk 14:15:34  and at the ninth hour JESUS cried iwth a loud voice, saying ELOI, ELOI, lama sabachthani?  Which is being interpreted: My GOD, My GOD, why hast THOU forsaken [#G1459 EGKATALEIPO - leave behind] Me?

(1) CHRIST is testifying that He has a GOD... and,

(2)  That His GOD had just WITHDRAWN from Him (left Him behind)...  This HAD to be, because GOD the FATHER, [YHVH] cannot DIE...

Quote from: Brian
Who is YHVH? The Father alone?

YES... CHRIST is the 1st, ...SON... (FIRST-fruit) with many SONS (fruit) to follow...

Plain & simple, ...CHRIST died Brian...

That in itself, is proof that the MAN, JESUS CHRIST was NOT the FATHER... the FATHER [YHVH] which permeated CHRIST in His life, was, and removed Himself was HIS (and our) GOD, that the SON might DIE (which YHVH cannot DO, for DEATH is an alternative to LIFE, which represents CHANGE), and redeem man from DEATH, by RISING to LIFE after 3 days...

If you will brother, even if you do not read this whole answer, ...PLEASE, ...at least, ...READ THIS CAREFULLY:

CHRIST (Son of Man) was able to DIE because He was a MAN of FLESH... (1 Tim 2:5)...

The WORD (Son of GOD) which IS the FATHER, and which does NOT CHANGE (cannot DIE, for it is LIFE - John 14:6), removed itself before the DEATH was manifest in CHRIST, ...the MAN.

Not even the FLESH of CHRIST could do other than return to the DUST.  For FLESH and BLOOD shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of GOD...

Our FLESH is completely worthless... and must return to the dust because it is worthless... but the FLESH of CHRIST was part of Humanity as well, and even though WORTHY, returned to the DUST to bring back to LIFE, ...the rest of the DUST which, one by one, had succumbed to DEATH because of SIN!!!

Quote from: Brian
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, YHVH and the Word was YHVH.

The WORD of a being IS that being... Your "word" is not a separate entity from YOU.   It is also NOT another person...  :dontknow:  Your "word" IS YOU, expressed in audible terms...

Quote from: Brian
Jesus said, before Abraham was I AM[YHVH]

JESUS, while on earth, spoke in TWO different capacities, Brian...

He spoke as the FATHER which dwelt in FULLNESS within Him ("I AM" - YHVH -- GOD), and also, ...spoke as a MAN... ("My GOD, My GOD, why hast THOU, forsaken, ME? / "Why callest thou Me good?"  -- Man)

JESUS prayed while in the flesh Brian, ...who was He praying to?  Himself?  No, He was praying to HIS GOD... just as do we.

Here is how it is:

(1)  JESUS spoke as TWO separate entities... ONE was the SON of GOD (WORD not a separate entity from GOD=YHVH) which IS YHVH (not separate from YHVH) and which CANNOT DIE, ...1. able to FORGIVE SIN, and ...2. worthy of WORSHIP

The DIVINITY [Godhead/YHVH] which was WITHIN the Man, JESUS... later, at the cross, ...LEFT the MAN JESUS ...behind.

(2) The OTHER portion of CHRIST, was the SON of MAN... which was IN FACT, a MAN (our brother), and like all of us (Sons to follow), 1. was born of a HUMAN MOTHER, ...2. able to be TEMPTED (GOD cannot be TEMPTED), ...3.  able to DIE (GOD cannot DIE), ...

Quote from: Brian
Paul calls Jesus our Great YHVH and Savior

The FATHER YHVH is the "YHVH" which Paul praises...

When PAUL opens his letters to the churches, he begins most all of them with such as this... which continuously names TWO SEPARATE entities (to name a few):

1 Cor 1:3  Grace be unto you, and peace from GOD our FATHER, ...and... the Lord JESUS CHRIST...

2 Cor 1:2  Grace unto you, and peace from GOD our FATHER, ...and... the Lord JESUS CHRIST...

Gal 1:3  Grace to you, and peace from GOD the FATHER, ...and... our Lord JESUS CHRIST...

Eph 1:2  Grace to you and peace, from GOD our FATHER, ...and... the Lord JESUS CHRIST...

Phil 1:2  Grace unto you, and peace, from GOD our FATHER, ...and... the Lord JESUS CHRIST...

Col 1:3  We give thanks to GOD and the FATHER, ...OF... our Lord JESUS CHRIST...

Quote from: Brian
Thomas declared Jesus to be his Lord and his YHVH.

Again Brian... Thomas is acknowledging the DIVINITY within the MAN... It is YHVH which is named SAVIOR, throughout the OT... in so many places, over and over and over... The commandments use "I" not "we"... Him, not "us"... He, not "them"... Mine not "ours"... His not "theirs"

There is no MULTIPLICITY in the notation of YHVH as a being... He makes many statements via Isaiah to this end:  (Is 43:11 / 44:8 / 45:5 & 18 & 22 /46:9)  Note the notations of "I', Me", etc...

Quote from: Brian
Jesus became an offspring when He was born of a woman, into this world as a human being.


I see this as an incomplete observation, and this is why: 

Heb 13:8  ...JESUS CHRIST [the WORD of YHVH], the ...SAME... yesterday [past], today [now], and forever [self explanatory]

James 1:17  every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the FATHER of lights, with Whom is NO VARIABLENESS, neither shadow of TURNING [continually the same]

CHRIST [YHVH -- the WORD ...not the MAN] does not "BECOME" anything... He IS what He IS... continually.

Quote
After the Ascension, He went right back being YHVH again, considering the high degree of worship He was receiving in the Book of Revelation. And the fact that Paul called Him YHVH after the Ascension. YHVH before His coming into the world as a human.


The verses I just noted OPPOSE this thinking... YHVH did not COME into this world "as a Human"...  Such thinking presents CHANGE... which Heb 13:8 / Mal 3:6 / James 1:17 deny can occur in the experience of GOD...

Quote from: Brian
The offspring of YHVH while a human. Back to being YHVH after His Ascension. Either that, or there seems to be a whole lot a blaspheming going on, on earth and in Heaven regarding Jesus.

No blaspheming... the presence in FULLNESS of YHVH in His Son... made the WORSHIP given, and the SIN FORGIVEN, valid...

JESUS the MAN/Son did not receive the WORSHIP, He deferred it:

Mark 10:18  And JESUS said unto him: why callest thou Me GoodNONE GOOD but ONE, ...GOD... [YHVH]


(2)  The 3 links you provided above DO NOT answer my question to you... I didn't ask for examples of "teachers" that you think are "QUALIFIED"... :mnah:

I asked you:

Quote from: willieH
What makes a "TEACHER, ..."QUALIFIED" according to your thinking, Brian

In other words... How do YOU determine this or that guy is a "QUALIFIED" teacher Brian? 

Quote from: Brian
Their fruit.

What "fruit"?  That they have followers?  You are evasive in this answer bro...

As I said, you are more than welcome to recieve or reject what I say... but the facts remain:



(1)  JESUS said that (true) FAITH would be so SCARCE upon His return, that it would be almost INVISIBLE (Luke 18:8)
(2)  JESUS said MANY would come in His name and DECIEVE (Matt 24:7)
(3)  JESUS said FEW would find the pathway of LIFE (Matt 7:14) -- 2.5 BILLION believers cannot NOW, nor EVER be considered FEW... Heck even 10,000 is not FEW! Let alone BILLIONS!

And in the SAME Chapter, ...JUST a FEW Words later He said this:

(4)  JESUS said MANY would call Him Lord (believers) yet be doing iniquity [casting out devils, prophesying, etc.] via their works, and preaching (Matt 7:21-23)

Believe what you will... I have just given you alternate views to consider.




PeacE...

...willieH    :thumbsup:

Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 01:49:31 AM »
Quote from: Willieh
Not even the FLESH of CHRIST could do other than return to the DUST.  For FLESH and BLOOD shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of GOD...

Our FLESH is completely worthless... and must return to the dust because it is worthless... but the FLESH of CHRIST was part of Humanity as well, and even though WORTHY, returned to the DUST to bring back to LIFE, ...the rest of the DUST which, one by one, had succumbed to DEATH because of SIN!!!

Where does it say the flesh of Christ returned to dust?  The tomb was empty.


Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.




1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

 3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.

--John 20



Offline jabcat

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2008, 11:54:28 AM »
Maybe this isn't a total either/or situation.  Many seem to have been called out of organized/institutional religion, including me.  God very clearly used the "come out of her my people" to convict and move me.  However, maybe some either haven't yet been called out, God is using them for a purpose where they are, or maybe they're in a fellowship that's not "institutionalized" but just a part of the body.  Personally, on one level I can fellowship with ET believers, as I believe they are my brothers and sisters if they're believers on Jesus.  However, there is a sort of "discomfort" in the fellowship, as I no longer see many things as I used to and as most of them still do...there are things within mainstream that I just can no longer swallow, or at the very least, just accept as orthodoxy teaches, without examining it further and more closely...what the preacher says is no longer automatically "the truth", just because he says it and/or the denomination sanctions it.  I would rather be in a situation of "2 or 3 gathered in His name" than be up to my eyeballs in a mainstream denomination again.  In fact, since God has been graciously revealing more of Himself to me, I don't see how it would be possible to just be sucked back into that situation and go with the flow, being that "church guy" again.    I do believe though, that at least to some extent, God places different callings, opportunities, and responsibilities on different people's lives, and to some extent, your walk may look a bit different than mine, and vice versa.  My  :2c:.  God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2008, 12:02:52 PM »
The way I see it, if Jesus could go 30 years without speaking against the Pharisees and teachers of the law and proclaiming the New Covenant. I can spend a few years in the traditional Body of Christ. I feel obligated to do so, just as Jesus was obligated.

I think that isn't true.
At the age of 12 Jesus was in serious discussing with Jewish priests/scribes according to a Bible passage.
Luke 2:46-47  And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.


I doubts if He  would be silent if He heard a lie. I also doubt this was the only occasion before his ministry that he discussed faith.
All my guesswork but if Jesus is an UR and hears ET teaching He would 'attack' them with a 1000 verses and parables.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2008, 12:44:52 PM »
Quote from: Brian
The way I see it, if Jesus could go 30 years without speaking against the Pharisees and teachers of the law and proclaiming the New Covenant. I can spend a few years in the traditional Body of Christ.
:thumbsup:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...