Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Christian Life

Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?

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WhiteWings:
I'll take the dive in the cold water. Hot lava?


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?

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I don't even know how to pray...


--- Quote ---Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?
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I learn 0 from the Bible. It just doesn't stick. I wander of after 2 verses.
A topic study works better for me.


--- Quote ---Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?
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I only know atheists and muslims.


--- Quote ---Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?
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Not sure I have real faith. If yes then the answer is yes.


--- Quote ---Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?
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UR


--- Quote ---Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?
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I think there are only doctrine teachers...


--- Quote ---Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?
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I think there is no sounds orthodox theology. To much disagreements between views.
I also think people often don't know they twist things....


--- Quote ---Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?

How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14
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How you know your are a qualified fruit inspector? You show me 100 religions/denominations and I show you 1000 self appointed supreme fruit inspectors....



--- Quote ---Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).
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You only can answer that if you are a perfect fruit inspector. Unless your name is Father/Son/HS you are not that inspector.


--- Quote ---The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.
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Spoken as a true ET  :laughing7:
I would say false.


--- Quote ---Jesus didn't spend so much time warning us about the dire consequences of sin and disobedience, if there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Or tell us He was the ONLY way to the Father, if there were some other way. Jesus is not Mr. Rogers or Barney the dinosaur.
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Not Barney?  :sigh:



--- Quote ---Q: "Should we form universalist congregations?"

A: "NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a 'universalist' congregation makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that!
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Simply put an UR church for me would be a church that teaches from YLT/Rotherham/... instead of from KJV

WhiteWings:

--- Quote from: Brian on December 13, 2008, 06:18:05 AM ---

--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---Not sure I have real faith. If yes then the answer is yes.
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One of the best definitions of faith I ever heard was something like; a true display of total faith is being able to jump out of an airplane and trusting your parachute to open.

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That's applying statitics that are proven over and over again. Faith is being the first parachute jumper. And not even that because it's tested before the jump. Faith is believing is something you don't feel, know, hear, see, smell. Something completly untested.



--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?
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--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---I think there are only doctrine teachers...?
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I'd say that's not a problem, if it's essential i.e. Christ centered doctrine.
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All doctrines claim to be Christ centered...


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?
--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---I think there is no sound orthodox theology. To much disagreements between views.
I also think people often don't know they twist things....
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Well, I think if the focus is on something other than Christ, then that's bound to be the case.
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They all focus on Christ. Their interpretations of His teaching.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?
--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14
--- End quote ---

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I think we have a chicken-egg problem here. Even decieved people honestly believe they understand the word correctly.
If you know you are decieved you aren't deceived....


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--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---How you know your are a qualified fruit inspector? You show me 100 religions/denominations and I show you 1000 self appointed supreme fruit inspectors....
--- End quote ---

I believe it's a matter of how well you know God's Word for yourself. People that get taken in by false or just bad teachers, are invariably Biblically illiterate. I don't mean that in a condescending way. but the more familiar with the Bible you are, the better equipped you are.
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I have to disagree. Indoctrinated. Misguided. Vain are all words that can replace 'equipped'.
Just as an example take Christianity vs Jews. Noone can deny many Jews are very serious studiers of the OT. They simply claim, with proof, Jesus is fake. Who's right? Jew or Christian who have proof Jesus is real? I'm sure both are honest in their believes. Equally smart. But still their conclusion is the oppossite. At least 1 is wrong...



--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).
--- End quote ---


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--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---You only can answer that if you are a perfect fruit inspector. Unless your name is Father/Son/HS you are not that inspector.
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I don't think you have to be a perfect fruit inspector, just an educated one. Of course the more time you spend in the Word and in prayer, the more you have the Father/Son/HS in you.
--- End quote ---
Same answer as above.


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--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.
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--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---Spoken as a true ET  :laughing7:
I would say false.
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Well, I'd say spoken like a true Christian. Because that's the advice that I got from a true Christian. His main focus is on his relationship with Jesus. As far as anything else goes; baptism, tongues, healing, prophecy, Pentecostalism, Calvinism, Arminism, UR etc, etc. They're interesting topics for conversation to him, but that's all.
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But how can you have a true relationship without knowing Jesus?
Doesn't the Bible say you know a tree by its fruit. You can't know tree Jesus without studying His fruits. His fruits are His opinion on all the words you wrote above. What kind of marriage would you have if after 50 years you don't even know your wifes favorite music, color, etc. Without such knowledge your marriage is based on sex. 50 years of one-night-stands. Likely enjoyable but still no real relationshup.  :laughing7:


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--- Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM ---Simply put an UR church for me would be a church that teaches from YLT/Rotherham/... instead of from KJV
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Simply put? You mean like an ET?! :eek:

They're all the same Word of God, only worded differently. I'd say to maybe start out with the translation called "The Message" which I often refer to, to get the gist or concept of certain scripture. As far as teaching goes, I'd say it's more important what the teacher is teaching and what the focus is, rather than what he teaches from whether it be KJV, NKJV, NSAB, NIV, YLT, Rotherham…I think YLT and Rotherham, for me at least, are good for research. But for just plain reading to understand God better, it's NIV, NSAB, or The Message. The only reason I have a KJV, is because I have a Strong's Concordance. My Young's Concordance is on the way. That reminds me, I need to go check my mailbox.
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I mainly use KJV because it's linked to Strongs in the software I use. I use it to find things but then I switch to another Bible for a better translation.
About the Bibles I had an example written down but I deleted it because it possible hurts some people.
That's why I just act like I know something written in the Bible. :winkgrin:
The parable of the seed in good soil, average soil and rocks.
The KJV is average soil at best. Because of the translation errors/bias it is easily misunderstood and the crop dies.
A good farmer can still get good crops with fertilizer (=cross checking lexicons etc) but it's not the prefered way of farming because the same investment in time would have yielded extra crops (=knowledge) on the good soil that from the start was already as good as the fertilized average soil.
From peronal experience I can say that the translation of certain words in all Bible versions I know are rocky ground that scares of potential believers. The saddest part of it all is that the Jews already discovered that centuries ago. But still 'we' stick to rocky ground translation.



--- Quote ---And just in hopes of not coming off as too holier-than-thou
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You most likely are...  :thumbsup:


B_T:

--- Quote ---Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?
--- End quote ---

Yes


--- Quote ---Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?
--- End quote ---

Hmm.. yes. Sometimes I even find the Bible boring (especially the old testament and Chronicles)


--- Quote ---Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?
--- End quote ---

Sometimes...


--- Quote ---Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?
--- End quote ---

Yes!


--- Quote ---Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?
--- End quote ---

Probably the second


--- Quote ---Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?
--- End quote ---

I don't think so


--- Quote ---Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?
--- End quote ---

Oh, I'm definitely angry at such people.


--- Quote ---Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?
--- End quote ---

No, I don't spend enough time in the Word of God at all...


--- Quote ---How do you spot  kooks? You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14
--- End quote ---

Kooks are all around me.


--- Quote ---Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention? Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).

--- End quote ---

Actually, I do believe there is punishment and there is wrath...


--- Quote ---The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.
--- End quote ---

I don't take the Bible literally, but metaphorically.

willieH:
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

Don't know what you mean to gain from this topic, but I do think it deserves answers...

Don't know WHAT your age or experience IS... nor WHAT you have been or are going thru at present, ...but...

Here are some answers from a 63 year old man, presently battling cancer (had CANCER surgery 3 months ago, and gotta go thru radiation therapy next month), ...and I have been a Christian for 33 years (20 w/Salvation Army [hell believers] and 5 w/SDA - 7 Day Adventists [annhilation believers]),  ...8 as an advocate and believer in UR...

I have stated these things, just a preface note to you, to let you know WHO is answering you, ...and WHAT I am presently going thru!  :Sparkletooth:

On with it!  :reachout:


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you spend more time with UR than you do in prayer?
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UR ...IS... the GOSPEL... which is my mission, and encompasses much of my Prayer life which is engaged 24/7... not just 5 minutes before bed or 60 seconds before eating...

I think it is important to define PRAYER...  As I see it, ...it is communication (IN RELATIONSHIP) both to and FROM God...

PRAYER does not require: EYES CLOSED, ON bended KNEE, IN CHURCH, or with "AMEN" at the end...  It is the ON-GOING relationship communication one has in the HEART with ones Maker...  GOD is present with ALL, at ALL TIMES...

When one comes to conscious acknowledgement and involvement in that presence, one is IN PRAYER.  Which is why Paul recommended we PRAY ...WITHOUT CEASING... (1 Thess 5:17)


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you spend more time with UR than you do reading your Bible?
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I spend most of my DAY in the Bible, which is PERMEATED with UR... so I don't see how the TWO can be separated by a question of being involved with one, more than the "other"?

If the message of the WORD is UR and it is to be brought to the World... then how may one separate this knowledge from the WORD...

"Reading" the WORD is a good thing... but absorbing the "reading" is the more important facet, IMHO...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?
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In REAL LIFE?  My communication with YOU is in REAL LIFE Brian... If I am present in the flesh as that communication is made, I might better (or worse) communicate with you...  Just being present IN FLESH, does not mean that the fellowship is on a higher plane, nor that it is destined to be better...

I have many friends with which I communicate with, that I have NEVER met in the FLESH... YET... I can truly say, that my relationship with them, is BETTER than many (certainly not all), which I am in communication with, face to face.

People are people bro... they can either get along or not... just because we meet "in person", does not gurantee the fellowship as golden... Don't get me wrong... I love face to face fellowship... but do not wish my ears to hear, what my Father has revealed to me as LIES...  You are and will be INFLUENCED by that which you avail yourself...  :dontknow:

As I see it, ...Brothers and sisters IN CHRIST are ALL MEN... for CHRIST died for and to redeem, ALL MEN, and they are therefore IN CHRIST in the ETERNAL perspective...

I do NOT live SPIRITUALLY, any longer in TIME perspective

I do not expect anything from anyone, for concerning the pathway position in TIME each person finds himself... each is on his own journey of revelation...

I spend my days and nights with the ETERNAL ONE... which directs my steps ...and accordingly, I minister to those which HE sends my way...

If you wish an answer about those who "believe" JESUS is Lord, and DONT believe in UR... most ALL the people I am in contact with in my life are in this mindset...  

It is my observation, that believing in UR does not set one apart from another... it brings men together when it is revealed by GOD...  

The only separation that is caused is when UR, like any other observation of the WORD, is FORCE-FED to another in an individual attempt to change that one... instead of laying it before, and then leave it up to GOD, as to whether or not it is time for UR's revelation in their life...

CHANGE of a HEART is GOD's Work, not mine... at best, I am in hopes to be a tool in His hand, nothing more...

I NEVER preach UR to folks... I offer to them this TRUTH (or any other TRUTH which GOD has revealed to me) ...to consider,  ...and then leave it in GOD's capable hands to use or NOT USE that information as HE see fit!


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you feel that UR is the paramount aspect of your faith?
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NO... I believe the COMPLETE "SOVEREIGNTY and ALMIGHTINESS" of GOD is the paramount "aspect" of my FAITH, ...for my FAITH is NOT my own... it is that which I recieve FROM HIM (Heb 12:2 / Rom 12:3)

My LIFE is NOT my own (1 Cor 7:23) for I am bought with a PRICE...  And the WILL exercised in me [IN CHRIST] is not my own, for the HEAD (1 Cor 11:3 / 12:6-27) of the Body in which I (SPIRITUALLY) reside makes ALL CALLS as to the life, its chronology and destiny of HIS BODY...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Is Christ and obedience to His commands and staying in His Word (for He is the Word - John 1:1) the main focus of your life, or is UR?
--- End quote ---

As I said before Brian... How can you separate the two?  UR ...IS...

the GOSPEL  ...of CHRIST (Gal 1:7 / 2 Cor 10:14),

...the GOSPEL of PEACE (Eph 6:15 / Rom 10:15),

...the GOSPEL of RECONCILIATION (2 Cor 5:18-19),

...the GOSPEL of DELIVERANCE for ALL (1 Tim 4:9-11)...  

This IS the WORD bro!  In its presentation I am IN and AMIDST the WORD!

If one is IN the WORD unselfishly, without motive or seeking to gain religious validation... Rather is SEEKING with ALL the HEART to KNOW the TRUTH, ...this shall be the MESSAGE which comes forth from that SEEKING and study... And IN that process is IN the WORD...

To "read" 5 or 10 chapters a day, and not absorb any portion of the WORK of God in that reading, to me, is time spent without reward...  To study with the specific PURPOSE of gaining TRUTHFUL INSIGHT (revelation) which DWELLS in the WORD, is the REWARD we are to seek...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?
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What makes a "TEACHER, ..."QUALIFIED" according to your thinking, Brian?

I was (in my 33 years of believing) taught by several Men and Women... not just one... And in retrospect... NONE of them, as I see it, were "QUALIFIED"...

Any GAIN which was realized by me, was GOD using them to ENLIGHTEN me, not THEM and any supposed "QUALIFICATIONS" men think they have...

I questioned some of them... and they did NOT answer me...  :thumbdown:

They had

"this credential" -- seminary / Bible college or

"that credential" minister of MANY years (20, 30, 40... whatever)

But would NOT believe what the Bible SAYS... only what their "church" said it SAYS, or their "seminary" said it SAYS... but when DIRECTLY questioned... they needed to ADD WORDS to the WORD ...in order to establish their view and thereby, their "credentials"...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Are you fed/taught by a teacher who doesn't just eliminate ET, but also condemns or twists sound orthodox theology while he/she is at it?
--- End quote ---

Might I pause here for a moment, and note that my "teacher" is GOD...

Men place things before me... but GOD teaches as to whether these offerings are valid or no... by HIS LEADINGS in my pursuit of Him...

Might I also say that I learn things DAILY.... and DO NOT "know it all"... however... I can discuss with anyone, because they are discussing with what GOD has given me, not ME...

Concerning "sound orthodox theology"... what theology?  And what do you note as the DETERMINING factor that ESTABLISHES it is, ..."SOUND"?  

What, if anything in particular have you determined as, TWISTED? And by WHOM?  :dunno: ..."TWISTED" in what way?  :dontknow:


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Do you spend enough time in the Word of God to know what it has to say regarding ALL things to be equipped to recognize solid Biblical teaching from manmade inventions of a kook?
--- End quote ---

Name something bro, and then let's discuss,  ...and then let the discussion reveal WHO is the "kook"!  :laughing7:


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---How do you spot  kooks?
--- End quote ---


Please!  Are you the "kook police"?   :laughing7:

A muslim shall believe YOU or I (as believers in CHRIST) are the "kooks" Brian  :dontknow:

Or a Hindu, or a Buddahist, or a Shintoist, or an Athiest... Who is the "kook" in the final analysis, ...is a matter of individual perspective brother...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---You'll recognize them by their fruit. You'll be able to recognize them by their fruit by way of thorough daily Bible studying (not just the UR parts, but the Biblical message in its entirety). We need to be qualified fruit inspectors, lest we be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine - Ephesians 4:14
--- End quote ---

This is all well & good Brian... but those who are solidly founded in their beliefs will not easily be "blown about"

What "belief" do you wish to discuss?  Let's see where the "fruit" lies...

Just out of curiousity, are you an ET believer? :dunno:  ...and if so... get to the point!

So far you seem to be infatuated with the idea that those who believe UR, do not have other beliefs in their lives which are working within them...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Is the God you are believing in the God of the Bible, or one of your or someone else's invention?
--- End quote ---


The very same question could be asked of you Brian...  :dontknow:

Whom do you suggest can determine this brother?  Your pastor?  

I think the GOD which ONE believes in, is the God which ONE finds oneself...  :dontknow:

He said to the individual HEART:  Jer 29:13 ...and ye shall seek Me, and FIND, when ye shall SEARCH with ALL your HEART...

This verse is noting men [YE] as INDIVIDUALS, not as "congregations or denominations, or religions"...

How many are THAT dedicated Brian?  Are you?  :dontknow:  (I don't doubt you are, just asking!)... If you ARE... then YOU shall find the GOD of the BIBLE... YHVH!


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Our God is a God of love. But He Himself tells us He's also a God of wrath. (And yes, I know there are those out there who write out lengthy convoluted brain bending dissertations explaining how wrath isn't really wrath, and so forth and so on).
--- End quote ---

Here's the deal from my perspective... AIDS, CANCER, HEART DISEASE, MURDER, RAPE, WAR, HURRICANES, FAMINE, TORNADOES, NUCLEAR WEAPONS, FLOODS, ADULTERY, CHILD ABUSE, EMBEZZLING, etc... etc... are but a FEW of the things which EVIL presents to us in this life... which RESULTS have been wrought by SINFUL behavior of our own, and of our ancestors...

It IS the WRATH of GOD... and it IS revealed NOW (Rom 2:18) (you reap what you sew)...

WRATH and SUFFERING are part of being molded in the IMAGE of CHRIST, Brian, ...get used to it!  As I said from the top of this answer... I am battling CANCER at 63!  Until you should join me in such a life threatening position, you have little to say to me...

GOD's WRATH, and the SUFFERING endured from it, is part of the WORKINGS of JOY which shall be revealed at its conclusion... The suffering we endure in this life is nothing by comparison to the JOY to come... as Paul rightly noted under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: (Rom 8:18)

We follow our SAVIOR who was MADE PERFECT [complete] through SUFFERING: (Heb 2:9) ...in other words, without SUFFERING we cannot be COMPLETE... nor can we be PERFECT! :dontknow:

PART of the IMAGE of CHRIST is SUFFERING bro...


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---The golden rule of good Biblical interpretation is to keep it as simple and literal as possible.
--- End quote ---

I agree... but sometimes DETAILED answers are necessary for DETAILED questions!  :laughing7:

There is no such "golden rule of Good Biblical interpretation"... that is your personal observation... however... all questions cannot be answered by "yes or no" which is an example of your "golden rule"


--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---Jesus didn't spend so much time warning us about the dire consequences of sin and disobedience, if there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Or tell us He was the ONLY way to the Father, if there were some other way. Jesus is not Mr. Rogers or Barney the dinosaur.

Stay in prayer. Stay in the Bible. Stay in good Bible teaching Christ centered church.
--- End quote ---

And what "church do you suggest Brian?  I have tried many... and ALL of them claim to be "CHRIST centered"

I would rather remain in the fellowship of GOD, isolated from RELIGION which claims to be "CHRIST centered", but CONDEMNS the majority of MANKIND to NEVER ENDING FIRE...

Publishing to the World that GOD is a GOD of PUNISHMENTS which do NOT match the crimea... and Unending TORMENTS emerging from the hand of "LOVE" (for GOD claims that distinction as defining Himself)...

Which "CHRIST centered" doctrine... :rolleye: ...BREAKS the SCRIPTURE and its message in so many places it is pathetic...

So enlighten me brother Brian... what "church" should I go to where not only LOVE is present but TRUTH as well...   :declare:
 

--- Quote from: Brian on December 09, 2008, 03:33:47 AM ---The more you do so, the closer you'll get to God. The closer you get to God the less you'll focus on UR exclusively, and learn to trust Him enough to leave all the consequences up to Him.
--- End quote ---

Boy, my friend... your message is about CONSEQUENCES eh?  I don't agree with that at ALL!  THIS LIFE is ALREADY, full of CONSEQUENCES... which ALL suffer and WILL suffer in various degrees...

Now you give us a vision, ...of MORE of the SAME to look forward to?  GOD with His WRATH at the end of this LIVING ride?   Please!  :wacko2:  There is NO LOVE nor POSITIVENESS in this brand of message!

GOD demands we FORGIVE our ENEMIES, BLESS them, etc... and then HE does the OPPOSITE?  This is the astray message of Orthodoxy, bro...  Swallow it if you must, as for me, ...it makes me GAG!  :eeew:

Sorry bro.. thanks, ...but NO THANKS! :mnah:  this advice of yours, is DEFINITELY not for me... others who read it, can do with it what they will with it...  :dontknow:

Let me ask you:

Why should I NOT focus upon THE ONLY MESSAGE that proposes that
(1) GOD ...IS... forgiving, that
(2) GOD ...IS... victorious, ...that
(3) GOD ...IS... impartial to men, ...that
(4) GOD ...IS... love and is NOT 2 faced!  (He loves you but if you dont LISTEN, He'll BURN you FOREVER!)

Nah... you can have it Brian... I been there, done that...  :thumbdown:

______________________________________________________________

I'll comment on GREGORY MacDONALD in the next post... (it will be shorter!)


peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

willieH:
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

RE:   GREGORY MacDONALD (whoever that is?)  which wrote this crap:


--- Quote ---Q: "Should we form universalist congregations?"

A: "NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a 'universalist' congregation makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that!

I want to be part of a church that is Trinitarian, Christ-centered, Spirit-filled, missional and loves people. If they also happen to teach universalism (in appropriate contexts - see my post on Origen) then great. Indeed, I would like it that they did. But if they taught eternal conscious torment then I'd rather be with them than a church that was all about universalism.
--- End quote ---

 :omg:  This is LOVE? =  :punish: :spank: :thewife: 

Is THIS your "church" GREGORY? 

Trinitarian, GREGORY?  (Where is this term in the Bible)

Eternal conscious torment ...what if your KIDS were among them GREGORY? Or your Mom or your Dad, or your Grandma?   Will you light the match of their torment, and then go back to GLEEFULLY singing your choruses?  Or stay and APPLAUD their misery?  :mshock:  Is that it GREGORY?  Is that your picture of LOVE?


--- Quote ---Don't get me wrong. I really do think that universalism is true (and I rejoice in it!)
--- End quote ---


 :Yeahright: GREGORY!


--- Quote ---and I'd be very happy to be part of a church that was evangelical universalist so long as the universalism was simmering away in its background. It is simply that I think we need to put universalism in its place. It is good news. It is important but it is not fundamental to healthy and obedient Christian living. Indeed some of the best churches I know believe in eternal conscious torment. Bless them Lord!" - Gregory MacDonald

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php?sid=25cb4af0b0e4100a88ffbd567bd942cf
--- End quote ---

This is like saying that HITLER's atrocious behavior was one of the BEST events ever employed, and we should be about telling everyone how GOOD it was! (as it so aptly parallel's ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT) 

"Hitler" and his DEMENTED operation, only gave a PREVIEW of what these "Eternal conscious torment" churches are teaching AS "GOOD"!

Gregory MacDonald... is obviously about CHURCH, ...NOT about LOVE... :mnah:

This, sadly verified by his own words, ...is sorrowfully evident!  :crywipe:

GREGORY would rather be about promoting ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT as the outreach of a "GOOD CHURCH", ...then to be in a church which should promote that GOD LOVES ALL MEN, and shall SAVE them ALL... please!  An ILLOGICAL statement made  of a disturbed mind and heart!  :eek:  :upset:


peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

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