Author Topic: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?  (Read 4829 times)

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2008, 05:39:23 PM »
Hi Brian,  peoples perception of either title is a bigger problem.   I can say I am a universalist and Christians will say things that show they have no interest in talking to "ME" about what I believe.  What perception do people have of Christians?  Is it the perception people have based on organized religion?  I would say yes. Maybe a better title would be "Do you search for truth in scripture, or just follow the dogma?"   

That is a good question. But I feel one can do that without divorcing oneself from the rest of the Body of Christ based on dogma. UR is a dogma after all. A dogma being a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative. 

What do you mean by divorcing oneself from the rest of the Body of Christ?

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I often spend more time in UR websites than in the Word.
I'm trying to break that trend. Not to abandon UR, but to set a balance. The Bible tells us who or Lord is and what He expects of us as His disciples. There's more to the Bible in my opinion than trying to decipher ET, Annihilationism, UR. And in my opinion, an objective Bible student/scholar will admit that all three dogmas can be backed up with scriptural references. Or admit that all three dogmas can be debunked with scriptural references. Personally I want to become a stronger better equipped saint overall, rather than solely an advocate of UR.

Thanks for your honesty,  I go where I am led.  If I am led back into an organized church I will go,  but it will be to do the Lords work, not to play patsy to a group.


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Do you spend anytime fellowshipping with your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in real life, even if they don't believe in UR?

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The only problem in my experience with internet fellowship, is if it's exclusive.

And how is the fellowship in the church your at not exclusive to what you like?  Please explain.


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As far as hiding what I believe goes, I believe almost everything that those I fellowship with believe. Most of us believe in non-Calvinistic Eternal Security. But I'm told there are a few among us who don't believe in it. But apparently they are able to put aside their doctrinal differences, in favor of what we all do agree upon overall.

Well, then, why do you not keep quiet here for the sake of the intentions of this website?  The intentions are to promote UR, so why not keep quiet and promote it?

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Thus, we are in one accord.

Sure, Atheists are often in one accord as well.


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For me personally, I believe faith and trust and obedience in Jesus Christ alone should be the paramount aspect of  my faith.

Good, then you might see that some of us leave organizations of religion due to that exactly.

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Are you fed/taught by a qualified Bible teacher who doesn't just focus on UR?


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I wasn't referring to them. I see a lot more names dropped here other than Father Son and Holy Spirit, as guides.

I agree, and many many churches promote books, cd's, dvd's and even sell them inside.  The church I last attended did not leave any room for that at all, the latest hot popular "CHRISTIAN" author, songwriter, dvd series is what was taught by.  Keep quiet for the greater good?  LOL.  whatever.


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One that doesn't go off on wild tangents. Let me give an example of someone I used to follow. Adam and Eve had sexual relations with the serpent. Cain and Able were fraternal twins. Can the son of the serpent, Able the son of Adam. Adam was an 8th day creation. God already created the blacks, browns, yellows and reds. And then he created Caucasian Adam. And so forth and so on. There's a couple on names dropped here often of guys who sound about as kooky as this guy. He means well I'm sure. But he's just gone off on too many wild tangents in my opinion.

Fair enough, I do not see the majority of UR proponents violating that at all.


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I see it as more of a critical and concerned personal view of seeing what appears to be contempt of the rest of the Body of Christ. This is I believe supposed to be Christian Universalism (notice how the Christian part comes first). Or is it "christian" Universalism or christain Universalism?

What do you believe the Body of Christ actually is?

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To me there's just so much more about Christianity than the dogmas of ET (and all it's various aspects), Annihilationism and UR.

Yes, but what I do not believe you are seeing is that saying there is more to "Christianity" is the problem.   I do not follow Christianity,  I follow Christ,  if you believe they are one in the same you are deceived.

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Good point. I'll rephrase that as a personal rule of thumb. And that it would be what to start out with.

Thank you,  1 Timothy 2:4 is a great place to start too.



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Jesus didn't spend so much time warning us about the dire consequences of sin and disobedience, if there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Or tell us He was the ONLY way to the Father, if there were some other way. Jesus is not Mr. Rogers or Barney the dinosaur.

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No, I most certainly do not want Universalists to accept the teaching of eternal hellfire. I'll be glad to PM you many emails I sent to my cousin the "ET" pastor, refuting eternal hellfire, before even hearing the term Universal Salvation. And surprise, he didn't explode or tell me I was going to hell or call me a heretic.

Some people in church leadership are far more skillful than just coming right out and calling someone by that name, but it does happen, there are far more people in churches that are afraid to speak their minds than you may be willing to admit.   The problem is not seeing them as good faithful Godly servants who keep to themselves for the greater good, It is seeing the much greater victory in Christ if they could feel free to be who they really are.
This keeping quiet nonsense is not a better way to be, it is bondage, and people who become comfortable in their bondage or accept it are easier to deceive.




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We must not cause dissention within the Body. If one Can't attend a Fellowship without stirring up dissention, then I agree, he shouldn't attend. But I feel that many of us can learn to get along with our brothers and sisters, even if they believe a person can lose their salvation and I don't, or they believe in eternal hell fire, because their Bible says so, and I don't, so far. I'm willing to concede I might be wrong.

But see, you completely overlook that I was just sharing

Most often it is the one who dares to speak up that is accused by the ones who are really to blame for dissention.   You seem to have the mind that the body of a church is the rule and one must not speak their mind and remain faithful to what they believe or they are causing trouble.  You further project this nonsense by taking the stance that this is a UR website and is separate from the body of Christ.

So really, the problem causers are the ones who keep people in bondage through the group mentality of doctrine.

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Maybe I'm compromising or selling myself short, but we have a jolly good time praising the Lord and loving one another.

Sure, as long as you agree with them, your fine.  What deception.


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The way I see it, if Jesus could go 30 years without speaking against the Pharisees and teachers of the law and proclaiming the New Covenant. I can spend a few years in the traditional Body of Christ. I feel obligated to do so, just as Jesus was obligated.

That not correct, there is nothing, not one thing in scripture that depicts Jesus as keeping "silent" for the cause of those around him.  This is rationalization on your part.
You feel obligated to a group of people primarily.   That is bondage.

 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 05:42:38 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 05:41:07 PM »
.

Agreed  :thumbsup:

 :laughing7:


LOL. I hit post instead of preview and it was far too long to just edit it while it sat there being read in total disarray and I did not get a button to remove the post.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2008, 05:43:45 PM »
I did not get a button to remove the post.

I do get a delete button. "red cross"
Board glitch?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2008, 05:45:34 PM »
I did not get a button to remove the post.

I do get a delete button. "red cross"
Board glitch?

Yes, some sections I get that, some I do not.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2008, 08:38:25 PM »
Your problems will be solved when you reach a 1000 posts.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2008, 10:18:09 PM »
willieH: Hi Molly :hithere:

Quote from: willieH
Not even the FLESH of CHRIST could do other than return to the DUST.  For FLESH and BLOOD shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of GOD...

Our FLESH is completely worthless... and must return to the dust because it is worthless... but the FLESH of CHRIST was part of Humanity as well, and even though WORTHY, returned to the DUST to bring back to LIFE, ...the rest of the DUST which, one by one, had succumbed to DEATH because of SIN!!!

Where does it say the flesh of Christ returned to dust?  The tomb was empty.

Do you think He rose in the SAME FLESH, in which He DIED?  :dontknow:

The Scripture says that one does not put NEW WINE in OLD BOTTLES... (Matt 9:17)

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

CHRIST's soul was in the GRAVE (not "hell")... 3 days and nights...

CHRIST's body did not see CORRUPTION, it was just  returned to dust... for it was INHERITED of ADAM... and GOD shall not go against His WORD which says that NEW WINE is NOT to be put in OLD BOTTLES...  :dontknow:

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

 3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.

--John 20

We all know these verses Molly... because the tomb was empty, does not mean the the BODY which was lived in flesh & blood with the potential to be tempted with SIN, and suffered DEATH ...was the same body which was RAISED to LIFE...

JESUS CHRIST was a descendent of ADAM... and the DEATH passed from ADAM unto ALL MEN ...Including CHRIST, who was IN DEATH, ...the SAVIOR of the DUST...

NOT raised with the body of CORRUPTION which held the ability of DISOBEDIENCE, and TEMPTATION... rather He was RAISED NEW in the ETERNAL body of INCORRUPTION...

In order to REDEEM the DUST, He went to the DUST... and ROSE from it to LIFE... for ADAM (and all amongst Adam) is DUST...

Dust thou art and unto DUST shalt thou return... CHRIST was a MAN... this mandate was given to ALL MEN...

SIN approached and TEMPTED the FLESH of CHRIST... and in the SPIRIT of YHVH, CHRIST overcame that FLESH (& blood)

CHRIST's FLESH was inherited from ADAM... and it is stated in Scripture that FLESH and BLOOD (CHRIST had both)... shall NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of GOD...

In RESURRECTION... CHRIST is noted to have, FLESH & BONE (no blood)... for the BLOOD was given to REDEEM... 

The RESURRECTED body, is a NEW body of INCORRUPTION -- flesh and bone (having OVERCOME the CORRUPTION which is found in flesh and blood)

It is SOWN in CORRUPTION, it is RAISED in INCORRUPTION... it is SOWN a NATURAL BODY (which CHRIST also had)... it is RAISED a SPIRITUAL BODY...  (2 different entities)

The Son of Man (old bottle), was given to the DEATH of DUST... (flesh & blood)

The Son of GOD (new bottle) returning in the BODY of LIFE... (flesh & bone)

CHRIST in His resurrected body... INSTRUCTED the UNCLEAN (Mary in the body of Sinful Flesh & Blood) not to touch His resurrected body (flesh & bone), ...until it was ASCENDED...




PeacE...

...willieH   :ty:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2008, 10:37:16 PM »
Jeeze Willie . . . this is really a great point.  I was leaning towards Molly's point in the question, but man, you nailed the answer for me.  The renewed body of Christ after resurrection . . .not the same flesh . . . the renewed body never died again . .but ascended into the spirit before the eyes of men.   I do like the way you think!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2008, 01:34:44 AM »
Quote from: WillieH
We all know these verses Molly... because the tomb was empty, does not mean the the BODY which was lived in flesh & blood with the potential to be tempted with SIN, and suffered DEATH ...was the same body which was RAISED to LIFE...

I never said it was.  But, neither was his old body turned to dust.  Because he would not allow his Holy One to see corruption.  So what happened?


39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

 40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.




51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


--1Cor 15


A different kind of flesh?


26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

 27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.


--John 20



martincisneros

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2008, 12:23:32 PM »
Holy Spirit was very, very deeply grieved when Brian deleted his posts.  I'm not going to say what happened over here when Brian did that lest I unwittingly frighten anyone, but there was an amazing manifestation of Holy Spirit's grief that I can't get into, and wasn't going to even but for His desire that I say something about allowing things time to grow 30/60/100/1000+ fold.  You don't withdraw the seed of the Word when it's been sown under any circumstances as though having sown it were pointless.  That's a mockery of God and now Lord Jesus has little to nothing to give the increase to of what Brian had sown.  People make the exact same mistake with the words of their mouths regarding offerings they've given.  They dig it up.

I was going to keep silent when I too was very deeply grieved at seeing that the opening post of this thread had been deleted as well 'cause it was one of my favorite posts from Brian, but Holy Spirit wanted me to speak up in His behalf about the value of sowing quality seed and how quality seed must be given time to grow.  Regardless of the intentions, folks like myself that would have watered posts like the opening post of this thread now have to start over from ground zero with nothing already growing in the field already. 

Withdrawing the seed of the Word is a very serious thing and all of us that moderate these boards know that and tread as softly as we know how in areas of the Holy Word and what'll come up as each person's harvest that's sown into Tentmaker Ministries, and into the lives of everyone that comes here, via their typed input on this forum.  I'm at a loss for the wanton destruction of this crop that would have continued to increase in Brian's behalf had he not been moved by something that he saw or whatever.  Just keep him in your prayers 'cause if it wasn't malice, then it reflected someone being deeply disturbed.  Everyone read Mark 4, please, and treat the seed you sow prayerfully and with greater honor, taking the extra second or minute to elaborate, and to make sure that it's coming from a loving rather than an offended heart, etc.

martincisneros

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Re: Are you a Christian or just a Universalist?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2009, 04:06:35 AM »
I went ahead and dumped Brian's account from the system.  I got too annoyed by 210 empty posts with just a period in them or however many that it was.  Plus, he'd changed his account's email address to a bogus email address and without the reactivation email he would have been sent with changing his email address in the system, he couldn't have reactivated his account.  With the account dumped from the system, he can either reregister as Brian or an entirely different Brian can register with Brian being his username.  And we hopefully don't have a bunch of subjects that have periods for titles.  If we do, then we can change that as we see 'em if they're important threads with a lot of activity on them.  For clarity, for future reference on this thread, for anybody new to it, this was originally started by someone named "Brian" and not by WhiteWings.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 04:08:34 AM by martincisneros »