Author Topic: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24  (Read 4251 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Where did Enoch go?

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 06:19:59 AM »
What an interesting question  :URWelcome:.

I saw one guy say he was raptured like we will be.  Since I'm guessing you're not going with that answer exactly, I looked up Hebrews 11:5 in The Christian Bible (1992)...extremely literal to the Koine Greek, but I do believe they add some "explanations" here and there, so I'm making no claims here...just found their translation interesting, and see if adds anything or not.

"By faith Enoch was transferred [to the beginning of the Last Age], so that he wasn't acquainted with death;  and he wasn't found because God had transferred him [Gen. 5:24]."  Hebrews 11:5, Christian Bible

To me, this sounds almost like another dimension rather than "heaven".  Don't know if it's accurate or not, but again, thought it was interesting.  

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 06:38:30 AM »

I was trying to corroborate this scripture with John 3:13; And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.

And Jab that is interesting: To the beginning of the Last Age.
That would be Eden?

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 06:47:42 AM »

I was trying to corroborate this scripture with John 3:13; And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.

And Jab that is interesting: To the beginning of the Last Age.
That would be Eden?

I was thinking the same thing about "no one ascended except Jesus".  Then we get into what is heaven  :sigh:.  Some believe it's THE heavens, not A heaven  :dontknow:.  Not sure I know the difference  :laughing7:.

Here's what I believe about the translators of the Christian Bible.  I believe they only see one more age AFTER this one, so they call it The Last Age.  I almost see it as Enoch's already "out there in time" somewhere, waiting for us to catch up.  If it's the beginning of the "next age", not necessarily the Last One as the translators indicate, then maybe he has a special role of leading the saints/Sons of God in further restoration, heading up to God All in All.

Know what?  I don't know!  I'm just throwing out some thoughts on an intersting question you asked.

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 06:55:08 AM »
But that's a cool thought about Eden.  Some might say that's sort of how it all ends up.  :thumbsup:

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 06:57:51 AM »
Willi, before you post, I want you to know I thought about you as I was posting the "somewhere in time" thing...one reason I put it in quotes...I almost noted your thoughts on "God doesn't have 'time', time is for us."  :bigGrin:

Offline willieH

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 07:56:31 AM »
willieH: Hi brother James... :hithere:

What an interesting question  :URWelcome:.

I saw one guy say he was raptured like we will be.  Since I'm guessing you're not going with that answer exactly, I looked up Hebrews 11:5 in The Christian Bible (1992)...extremely literal to the Koine Greek, but I do believe they add some "explanations" here and there, so I'm making no claims here...just found their translation interesting, and see if adds anything or not.

"By faith Enoch was transferred [to the beginning of the Last Age], so that he wasn't acquainted with death;  and he wasn't found because God had transferred him [Gen. 5:24]."  Hebrews 11:5, Christian Bible

To me, this sounds almost like another dimension rather than "heaven".  Don't know if it's accurate or not, but again, thought it was interesting.

That IS interesting brother James... however, ...as I see it, ...this is at best, a speculation (imagination), for no "other dimension" is noted as existent, nor is referenced in the WORD... is it?  :dunno:

Nor does the WORD say that Enoch was "transferred" to the "beginning of the last age"...

Heb 11:13 speaks of all the prior mentioned ones (which included ENOCH):

Heb 11:13 -- these ALL -- DIED in faith, not having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them and confesssed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...

Enoch is the (7th) decendant of ADAM... and Scripture plainly states that -- IN ADAM --- ALL DIE... 1 Cor 15:22 -- [ADAM--SETH--ENOS--CAINAN--MAHALALEEL--JARED--ENOCH] --

If Enoch actually "went to Heaven" -- and is in Heaven with God (as most of Chrisitianity believes) -- Then concerning Enoch, the Savior was therefore not necessary, and this would also mean that JESUS in part (concerning Enoch) died UNNECESSARILY, as JESUS tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9 -- So a portion of CHRIST's sacrifice was not necessary!

I don't buy it.  Enoch was a man, and IN ADAM, and therefore concieved in SIN, and in need of the Savior...

And though his DEATH was not noted, it HAD to have taken place, otherwise the above Scriptures are compromised [1 Cor 15:22 and Heb 2:9] as well as others that state that JESUS is the "Savior of the WORLD"...

They would have to say --

JESUS is "the Savior of the World" -- except Enoch... or,

JESUS is "the Savior of ALL" -- except Enoch...  :dontknow:  The WORD does NOT say these things...

Though Enoch's "physical death" is not recorded, the "physical deaths" of many other "Biblical" personages are not recorded either.  :dontknow:

I believe the "translation" of ENOCH was one of FAITH (in the Savior to come)... meaning that His "walk with God" was a transforming one, and one which Scripture intends as is noted in the FAITH chapter (in Hebrews 11) that he did not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit...

Col 1:13 notes that believers are "translated" into the Kingdom of God... This does not mean that we no longer are here on earth, it means our hearts have been "transferred" from UNBELIEF... Even then, MEN are still APPOINTED -- Once to die -- Heb 9:27 -- this is/was applicable  to Enoch, who was a MAN.

PS... I just read your note, brother...   :laughing7:   :friendstu:

Quote
Willi, before you post, I want you to know I thought about you as I was posting the "somewhere in time" thing...one reason I put it in quotes...I almost noted your thoughts on "God doesn't have 'time', time is for us."


It remains my belief that Enoch PHYSICALLY DIED because:

(1) men are appointed once to die
(2) Heb 11 notes him amongst the men of FAITH who DIED
(3) Enoch was a direct descendent of Adam and In Adam all DIE
(4) Enoch was a SINNER, and in need of a Savior, as well as RESURRECTION
(5) God is IMPARTIAL to all men, so no one "gets there" before the others...

:Peace: me bratha  :afFro:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 08:06:46 AM »
Thanks Willie.
It was faith that translated him from one state of being to another state of being.
For he walked by faith not by sight as did those that could not find him anymore.

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 08:12:16 AM »
Yeah, good points Willi.  As far as my "imagining" things, I said "sounds almost like...don't know if it's accurate".  There was also this part of my post -

"Know what?  I don't know!  I'm just throwing out some thoughts on an intersting question you asked."

Also, 2 more things -

I'm going to do a little word study on this "Nor does the WORD say that Enoch was "transferred"...actually, as I said, The Christian Bible is a very literal translation to the Koine Greek.  I don't know exactly what Greek word that is, and how others translate it, but I want to look.

The other thing is, he seemed to be missing, as in, "they couldn't find him".  Not sure how that fits.

Thanks, James.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 08:17:48 AM by jabcat »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 08:28:18 AM »
Jab, perhaps that they could not find him anymore has a very practical meaning.
Like when a young person hangs out at a bar every Saturday night for years, then he finds his faith and stops going the the nightclubs and behold they saw him no more!

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 08:34:32 AM »
Maybe.  I got'ta do some thinkin' on this one.   Thanks a lot  :laughing7:.

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2009, 08:44:20 AM »
OK, looking at that word some more, I didn't get a whole lot new out of this...anyone else?  

(Hebrews 11:5 in the Greek Interlinear)

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb11.pdf


Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2009, 08:48:12 AM »
biblecc.org notes these cross-references about Enoch;

 
Genesis 5:21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah.
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Luke 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
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John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
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Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Certainly to me, that last verse especially seems to be referencing spiritual death, but not positive.
 
 

Offline jabcat

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2009, 08:50:43 AM »
μετετεθη  verb - aorist passive indicative - third person singular
metatithemi  met-at-ith'-ay-mee:  to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert -- carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.   :dontknow:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2009, 08:59:08 AM »
There are other realms or dimensions.  Paul's aim was regarding "the on-high calling."  He wanted to obtain a prize he called being summoned into a higher realm in Christ. (Php)  He also spoke of being so possessed by God that he entered into the third heaven and into "Paradise" (2 Co 12;)  I'm not sure if they are the same thing.  He also said twice that whether it was in the body or out of the body he was unaware.  This says much about several things.  One area is existing apart from the body as a spirit being, as a disembodied spirit and what can happen receptively or assertively with a spirit.  But this is a digression.  Paul speaking of entering the third heaven is what I'm pointing to.

I also know by experience we can be in another time by the Holy Spirit.

That Jesus alone possesseth immortality I searched out and posted about somewhere else here.  As far as I could determine it is right to think of that as being Jesus' possession but not something He doesn't bring others into experienceing.  He gives something of it to others but it remains His own special possession.  Others have entered into things pertaining to immortal, incorruptible states; but, Jesus holds the key as "the firstborn from the dead."

Willie says:
(1) men are appointed once to die

          but I say "we shall not all sleep"
(2) Heb 11 notes him amongst the men of FAITH who DIED
          but how was that death accomplished:  physically or vicariously?
(3) Enoch was a direct descendent of Adam and In Adam all DIE
          those "who are baptized into (not water, but) Christ are baptized into His death." and again, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed!"
(4) Enoch was a SINNER, and in need of a Savior, as well as RESURRECTION
(5) God is IMPARTIAL to all men, so no one "gets there" before the others...
          Jesus is a man...there are Overcomers and they are ahead of others, whether in time or rank.  Scripture speaks of "each man in his own order."  This "order" is a word used of military "ranks."  Besides, I know by experience I'm way ahead of those "sons of stubborness" who are walking according to the spirit that works in them.  I was previously among them in the same or worse condition.  The principal reason anyone gets there (?) ahead of anybody else is to bring others in.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2009, 10:47:44 AM »
The 5th book of Genesis is basicly just a list of birth and death.
Every person seems to "end" with: And the days of xxx were yyy years. And he died.

Only for Enoch the last part states and the Lord took him instead of he died.
For me that can simply mean: Took his life. (God gives and takes)
And if Enoch was sorta raptured where too? Not to heaven it seems...
John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But this possibly contradicts that...?
2 Kings 2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Right now I believe "took him"simply means died.
Lots can be argued about the vague wording of Enoch and Elijah.
But the verse about Jesus is very direct and clear. And in my opinion a opinion/doctrine should be build on the clear cut verses. Not the maybe, possibly, likely, type of verses....
 :2c:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 10:54:12 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2009, 11:17:48 AM »
I was thinking the same thing about "no one ascended except Jesus".  Then we get into what is heaven  :sigh:.  Some believe it's THE heavens, not A heaven  :dontknow:.  Not sure I know the difference  :laughing7:
There are (at least) 3.
The sky. Space/universe. Where God lives.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2009, 11:21:40 AM »
But that's a cool thought about Eden.  Some might say that's sort of how it all ends up.  :thumbsup:
Mmm, and where is Eden located? It's not on earth (at least not visible). It's not in heaven because only Jesus went there.
Then it must be in Abrams bossom in the rich man and lazarus parable... :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 11:34:49 AM »
:idea2: Mmmz. :idea2:

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that decended from heaven.
(I changed (red) the verse a little to make my point)

A king also ascends and decends to a throne. -> change in power
That has a different meaning as for example walking to a throne. -> change of place.

Jesus always was higher lifeform to use Trekkie speak :icon_king:
He decended=lower rank/mortality/flesh/etc
He ascended=king/immortal/spiritual/etc
:Yeahright:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 02:24:19 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 11:41:29 AM »
Jesus seems the only one that did something with His own power
Elajah needed a chariot. Enoch was translated, whatever the exact meaning of that is.
I guess the other people are lost in translation :laughing7:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 02:25:31 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2009, 01:21:40 PM »
Jesus seems the only one that did something with His own power
Elajah needed a chariot. Enoch was translated, whatever the exact menaing of that is.
I guess teh rest is lost in translation :laughing7:
so here's a thought...
If both Enoch and Elijah didn't die way back then but "was found no more"...and man is appointed once to die...maybe they would be the two witnesses in the last days?...we know that the two witnesses do die and after three days they are called up to heaven...mmm...the plot thickens

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2009, 02:20:24 PM »
noname,
By now they are already several millenia 'not found' and witnesses or not my question (and of BS I think) where are they right now?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2009, 02:37:08 PM »
μετετεθη  verb - aorist passive indicative - third person singular
metatithemi  met-at-ith'-ay-mee:  to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert -- carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.   :dontknow:
Doesn't that mean the transferring is still taking place?
(does not sound like blink of an eye)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2009, 02:56:40 PM »
Colossians 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Do believers die.....?

Deuteronomy 34:5-6  So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Moses was also not found. Because Father buried him.
He was translated into dust.... :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2009, 03:01:18 PM »
One more....  :mblush:

Hebrews 11:1-13 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.  3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.  5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.  6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.  7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.  8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.  9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:  10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.  12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.  13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...