Allowed to "Fall"?

[Deena]

Yes, that is the one. For me it answered some questions that helped to solidify my belief that God works all things according to His will. He does not allow us to hijack it. This analogy came to me about it--a child being pushed in a stroller may have the naive delusion that he is making it move, when in fact the parent is the originator of it all. God is the originator of it all and He will have His perfect will, and thank God, not my will. Have I trod on fragile ground?

[jabcat]

Fragile yes, but at this point I think we'll survive.   

You and Tony are almost talking about it without directly referencing it.   

That last post was a 

[WhiteWings]

The parable of the 100 sheep has a free will component.
Think about it....

[WhiteWings]

Yes, that is the one. For me it answered some questions that helped to solidify my belief that God works all things according to His will. He does not allow us to hijack it. This analogy came to me about it--a child being pushed in a stroller may have the naive delusion that he is making it move, when in fact the parent is the originator of it all. God is the originator of it all and He will have His perfect will, and thank God, not my will. Have I trod on fragile ground?

I think not because nobody disagrees God is a Parent :-)

[lomarah]

The parable of the 100 sheep has a free will component.
Think about it....

So does the prodigal son... think about it... 

[dajomaco]

I think we have the ultimate choice in whether
 we are at peace with ourselves or not
I can choose to be at peace with myself
even in the middle of a heated battle.
I can choose to be at peace with myself
while hearing bad news or sad news.
I can be at peace with myself even though
God has put all the responsibility for being at peace with myself
in my court.

The inner court.

[jugghead]

Yes nf, I often entertain that as very real possibility

I think it's the only interpretation that doesn't cause contradictions elsewhere or questions God's abilities.

If God created a perfect Adam in the way many think what does that say about God's skills/insight.
First He claims Adam is perfect; which means holy and without (the seed of) corruption like Jesus of Himself.
Then just a few verses later we see God kicks out Adam because he obviously didn't act very holy.

What happened?
a] God intended to create a Jesus like Adam but failed because of a design flaw and/or being outsmarted by satan?
b] Things went exactly as designed. Meaning "saw it was perfect" simply means everything fitted perfectly in the big Masterplan?
c] It was good because it worked as designed including the free will component that soon spread like a virus?

I think no Christian goes for option a.

Options b and c although not the same thing can't be discussed in depth without at a certain point in that discussion entering the forbidden zone of free will.
If the total lack of free will is a fact then obviously the answer is  a very clear b]
If not a lengthy discussion is at hand :P

 I know I may be treading on a very delicate subject here, but cannot this same viewpoint (as applied to Adam) also be applied to Lucifer?

[dajomaco]

In order to be at peace with my self I have to be at peace with God.
The Holy Spirit reveals to me that no matter what I might imagine.
God is at peace with me.
I have the free will to be at peace with myself.
This being at peace has nothing to do with the physical world.
It has no effect on the past present or future.
What is a fall if God and I are at peace?

[jabcat]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/free-willall-sovereign-and-the-trinity-discussions/

[dajomaco]

Sorry I did not read the rules as if they were pertaining to me.
Now that I read them they make sense.
Thank -you.
(peace)

[jabcat]

Sorry I did not read the rules as if they were pertaining to me.
Now that I read them they make sense.
Thank -you.
(peace)

Not just you brother, a good reminder for us all and another chance to work through it a little bit.  Thanks  .

I keep thinking about that whole topic, as it is a troublesome one, for sure, i.e., how in the world to talk about such important concepts without just ticking each other off with vague, slippery, argumentative terms.  The thought that's come to me is this;  "I was in weather today".  Or, "when I was outside today it was hot for awhile, then the clouds came up, and it rained a little bit and cooled things down".   

So "I have free will/I don't have free will".  Or, "God requires me to make choices, He holds me responsible for my actions, He directs my steps, my will needs to yield to His, His will be done".  I.e., what does the weather look like, what did it do?   

I sure hope that helps, because it truly is an ongoing dilemma, as it's such important topics, while at the same time, certain words that can be used have shown to just aggravate and cause arguments.  Maybe if we keep hashing on this, we'll one day figure out how to handle it.  I admit to not knowing how to handle it perfectly.   

  

[LordsDaughter]

In my philosophy an omniscient God is love and as Yeshua, God incarnate, accomplished his mission on earth when he came to take the sins of the world upon himself. Thus, there is no sin and no sinner born.
I therefore do not believe an omniscient omnibenevolent God would allow us to fall just so he could watch. I think rather when we are challenged in life it is to recall the promise of God as denoted in the heart of the scriptures; we are gods and goddesses. And as such what we face in life helps us to use what we've learned as creators of our destiny and challenges us to learn more as we overcome our adversity.

[jugghead]

Does God allow us to fall, I say yes, for the purpose of understanding. The knowledge of evil (sin) came through the law, but the knowledge of good (righteousness) came through Christ. We have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the tree contains both the understanding of evil (the understanding of sin and the understanding of law) and the understanding of good (the understanding of righteousness, which comes through Christ, not the law). We had to eat in order for us to understand the Father and who He is; that He is love; that He is righteous.

When we make the mistake of thinking that righteousness comes through the obedience of the law in order to avoid punishment, our own mind conceives the thought that if we are avoiding discipline, we are being righteous. This is what I believe to be the mistake of the Pharisees. They avoided punishment through the sacrificial law. But that law has now been done away with. So now, does our righteousness come through the obedience of the rest of the law? no, it comes through the understanding of Christ and who He was and what He did while He was here.

Righteousness (doing what is right) came through the example of Christ and the life He lived, acts of kindness, acts of gentleness, acts of forgiveness, acts of compassion, all contained and done through love for mankind. Righteousness comes through acts of love towards others, not through acts of obedience of the law.

Of course, this is my understanding.

[shawn]

Does God allow us to fall, I say yes, for the purpose of understanding. The knowledge of evil (sin) came through the law, but the knowledge of good (righteousness) came through Christ. We have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the tree contains both the understanding of evil (the understanding of sin and the understanding of law) and the understanding of good (the understanding of righteousness, which comes through Christ, not the law). We had to eat in order for us to understand the Father and who He is; that He is love; that He is righteous.

When we make the mistake of thinking that righteousness comes through the obedience of the law in order to avoid punishment, our own mind conceives the thought that if we are avoiding discipline, we are being righteous. This is what I believe to be the mistake of the Pharisees. They avoided punishment through the sacrificial law. But that law has now been done away with. So now, does our righteousness come through the obedience of the rest of the law? no, it comes through the understanding of Christ and who He was and what He did while He was here.

Righteousness (doing what is right) came through the example of Christ and the life He lived, acts of kindness, acts of gentleness, acts of forgiveness, acts of compassion, all contained and done through love for mankind. Righteousness comes through acts of love towards others, not through acts of obedience of the law.

Of course, this is my understanding.

Your understanding is my understanding as well.

[CHB]

Does God allow us to fall, I say yes, for the purpose of understanding. The knowledge of evil (sin) came through the law, but the knowledge of good (righteousness) came through Christ. We have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the tree contains both the understanding of evil (the understanding of sin and the understanding of law) and the understanding of good (the understanding of righteousness, which comes through Christ, not the law). We had to eat in order for us to understand the Father and who He is; that He is love; that He is righteous.

When we make the mistake of thinking that righteousness comes through the obedience of the law in order to avoid punishment, our own mind conceives the thought that if we are avoiding discipline, we are being righteous. This is what I believe to be the mistake of the Pharisees. They avoided punishment through the sacrificial law. But that law has now been done away with. So now, does our righteousness come through the obedience of the rest of the law? no, it comes through the understanding of Christ and who He was and what He did while He was here.

Righteousness (doing what is right) came through the example of Christ and the life He lived, acts of kindness, acts of gentleness, acts of forgiveness, acts of compassion, all contained and done through love for mankind. Righteousness comes through acts of love towards others, not through acts of obedience of the law.

Of course, this is my understanding.

I liked what you said here. My understanding as well.

Wanted to add some thoughts I had while reading your post.

God gave us laws to show us that we couldn't keep them good enough to save us and to make us see that we needed a Saviour. We cannot save ourselves by our works but by the works of Christ. To make us see that we are flesh and without him we can do nothing. That we have no reason to boast of anything.

CHB

[Molly]

The strange connection between sin, forgiveness, and love--


"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love."

--Luke 7:47

[jugghead]

 To make us see that we are flesh and without him we can do nothing. That we have no reason to boast of anything.

CHB

I would go as far as saying that we cannot even obey His laws, let alone try to be righteous without Him (without His spirit in us). It is just that with some people, His Spirit shines brighter than in others, His Spirit of righteousness in us, we are only the vessel that His Spirit shines. He is the flame that gives light, we are only the lamp that the light is contained in.

[Ross]

Rom 9;11 " They in fact, not having been born yet,
nor having practised anything good or bad,
in order that the purpose of God might stand by way of election,
not by works, but by Him that was calling."

vs 22,23 " And if God,
wishing to show His anger and to MAKE KNOWN HIS POWER, bare in much patience with vessels of anger already fitted for destruction,
in order that HE MIGHT MAKE KNOWN the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory."
vs 26 " And it shall be in the place where it was said to them
' you are Not-My-People!'
there they shall be called Sons of a Living God."

Without the hope of a resurrection this would all be meaningless.
With the confident assurance of a resurrection In Christ, this seems to clarify why we are here to learn about our Father with practical demonstrations of what to do and what not to do.

[sheila]

yeah..the vessel marred in the potters hands..sin entering it..fitted for destruction..while of the same lump making a vessel of mercy..to show His Glory

  way back..in my early 20"s...I heard this...you can learn the easier way..by listening to me..or the harder way...but learn you will

[Deena]

So are the vessels of destruction and the vessels of mercy are the same? By not destroying us we become vessels of his mercy?