Allowed to "Fall"?

[jabcat]

Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?

There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent.  Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?

Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters?  Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?

Thoughts?  Scripture?

[Ross]

Hi Again;
Yeah I personally think this is part of the learning from experience as the best way for the truth to sink in.
When we learn a trade we hear all the theories and then do the practical to see what applies and how it applies.
When we learn sports we practice to improve. Seems that these are all little analogies that make sense at the time we actually try to find out why we are doing things. As a kid we do ask little questions. As we grow up we seem to ask the same questions but at a deeper level.

Heb 12;8-11 " If, however, you are without discipline, whereof ALL have received a share, then you are bastards and NOT sons.
 Indeed furthermore we used to have the father's of our flesh as administrators of discipline, and we used to pay deference:
Shall we not much rather submit ourselves to the Father of our spirits and live?
For they indeed were administering discipline for a few days according to that which SEEMED GOOD to them:
but He to that which is profitable with a view to OUR PARTAKING of His holiness:
but no discipline indeed seems to be of joy for the present, but of sorrow:
HOWEVER, AFTERWARDS, to them who have thereby been well trained it yields peaceful fruit of righteousness."

[lomarah]

Yes Ross, I agree. I don't think it's possible to learn to walk without falling. I've never met a baby who could do it yet! (Hence why my daughter had a nice shiner for her first birthday lol!)

[anna274]

Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?

There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent.  Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?

Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters?  Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?

Thoughts?  Scripture?

Scripture

Rev 3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent.


Thoughts/feelings

There have been times/seasons in my life when my feelings identified with Tevye (Fiddler on the Roof) complaining to God:  "I know.  I know.  We are Your chosen people, but once in a while, can't You choose someone else."

[jugghead]

Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?

There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent.  Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?

Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters?  Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?

Thoughts?  Scripture?

I do not see things as "a Christian falters" and that is because God prepares us in advance, if at a later point in a Christians life, God brings someone across their path with a difficulty, if that Christian, who we may see as having fallen away, back into some things of the flesh, I believe it is for the purpose of better understanding that thing of the flesh so that he is prepared to help another who is dealing with the same issue.

At the least, this is what makes sense to me.

[Deena]

I have been pondering over this need to fall,fail, sin. When you read the story of the prodigal and compare the two sons, who is the one to experience the Father's love on a deep personal level? The one who fell and failed badly. The other brother remained ignorant of His Father's true nature. I think there is a reason that grace is extended to the humble. They are the only ones capable of receiving it. Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God.

[lomarah]

Wow, good points Deena!!

[WhiteWings]

When sin abounds....

[lomarah]

... death abounds.

[WhiteWings]

grace super abounds.

[WhiteWings]

(Rom 5:20) But the law came in alongside, so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace superabounded,

[lomarah]

I know that's what you were getting at. :)
Just provoking. :)

[jugghead]

I have been pondering over this need to fall,fail, sin. When you read the story of the prodigal and compare the two sons, who is the one to experience the Father's love on a deep personal level? The one who fell and failed badly. The other brother remained ignorant of His Father's true nature. I think there is a reason that grace is extended to the humble. They are the only ones capable of receiving it. Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God.

The prodigal son came to mind last week for me, who is the prodigal son, I was always taught that the prodigal son was the one who squandered his inheritance.

I believe they are both examples of being a prodigal son, what I see in the older brother is, he chose to separate himself from his father and brother simply because the father chose to forgive and love the one who squandered his inheritance. Is this not an example of those of organized religion, they chose to separate themselves from their brother (mankind) simply because they do not want to believe that our loving Father will forgive those who have squandered what they were given.

[jabcat]

Some really good responses in here guys, thanks, and amen.

This touches on a discussion I was having earlier today with someone;  Deena said "Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God."   

[jabcat]

I have been pondering over this need to fall,fail, sin. When you read the story of the prodigal and compare the two sons, who is the one to experience the Father's love on a deep personal level? The one who fell and failed badly. The other brother remained ignorant of His Father's true nature. I think there is a reason that grace is extended to the humble. They are the only ones capable of receiving it. Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God.

Deena, this post reminded me of a conversation I'd just had with a friend.  I sent it to him, and he responded with this;


"AWESOME!!!  LOVE THAT!!!!!!!  YES YES YES YES YES!!!!  U don't know what the Father is really like until you accept His never ending, abounding Grace.  SO TRUE!  We have people on both sides of the equation that won't accept it... the religious minded who seek to know what God is really like through pleasing Him with their own works in an attempt to generate Holiness/Righteousness.  Then you have the unbelievers who either just don't believe and/or are so turned off by the religious minded that they want to have nothing to do with the god they hear about.

There really is no other "message" more relevant to the whole of humanity than this INCREDIBLE Gospel of GRACE!!!l

It is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT in the HISTORY OF HUMANITY!

Is it any wonder the apostle Paul was generally BESIDE HIMSELF in his writings... coming from submersion in LAW... GRACE was revealed to him in its ENTIRE MAGNIFICENT GLORY!!!  IT BLEW HIS MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  There he was pursuing Law and KABOOM!!!!!!!!.... He was completely blown away by GRACE!

Grace is impossible!!  It can't be real... it isn't "logical"... yet... ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR GOD!!  What we could not obtain for ourselves.... HE DID IT FOR US AND GAVE IT TO US FREEEEEEELY!!!

Check this out.... Grace is other-wordly!  Embracing it is being HOME!!!  You can't believe it or understand or accept it when you try to use your dumb mortal brain that you were born into on this planet!!! ... That brain has been filled with so many man made ideas that seeing Grace through a religious mindset is just impossible... why??... Because It is SPIRITUAL... FROM ANOTHER REALM... THE REALM THAT IS OUR HOME!!!!!!!  THE REALM WE ARE FROM!!!!!  IT IS THE LOGIC OF HEAVEN!.... GRACE!!!!

Thank you for sending me that!!

God is GOOD!!  AWESOME!"

He gets a little excited     Blessings.

[Ross]

Awesome.
Grace is indeed unmerited/unearned favour.

Eph 2;8,9 " For you have been saved by grace through means of faith, and this has come to pass of the freegift of God,
NOT FROM YOU, not from works lest anyone should boast."

2 Cor 10;17,18 " He that boasts, however, let him boast in the Lord; for not he that commends himself is approved, but he whom the Lord does commend."

[lomarah]

Awesome.
Grace is indeed unmerited/unearned favour.

Eph 2;8,9 " For you have been saved by grace through means of faith, and this has come to pass of the freegift of God,
NOT FROM YOU, not from works lest anyone should boast." E

2 Cor 10;17,18 " He that boasts, however, let him boast in the Lord; for not he that commends himself is approved, but he whom the Lord does commend."

You know what, it just FINALLY dawned on me last night what being saved through faith means. Of course, in traditional church ET circles it means if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God,
you will go to heaven. Well I've known for a long time that isn't right. But until last night I never really understood... all we have to do is have faith in Him and HE will free us from our sin! We just repent, have faith, and He sets us free! How simple... yet it took me 11 years to get it. LOL!

[Deena]

Jabcat, the prodical story came to mind when I was asking God why we had to be subject to this tragic life that seems to rain sufferring and death. I was sort of mad at Him. Now that I see the necessity of it (it changes us, opens our eyes) i am more at peace, but what really wowed me was the Father's response when the prodigal returned. The Father knew he would come back and was ready for him (fatted calf, ring and robe all waiting). The Father didn't even respond to the son's apology--it wasn't necessary. The Father knew the son had to go, but all the while he knew he would return, like all His children who now are on that prodigal road of futility, He knows that we also are coming home, and we will be changed during the journey. The party when we get there is gonna be a big one. Until then, abide in faith, hope and love, the greatest of these is love.

[anna274]

Deena's comments on the Prodigal Son Story
Lomarah's sharing of a slow (11 years!!) but sure opening of the eyes
Ross's Scriptures Eph 2:8,9; 2 Cor 10:17,18
Jabcat's sharing of friend's "...this INCREDIBLE Gospel of GRACE."

Thanks so much for very comforting reminders (1 Thess 4:18 ...comfort one another--1 Thess 5:11 ...comfort and edify) the word "comfort" includes encourage, instruct, exhort...  God bless, anna

[nightflight]

Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?

There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent.  Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?

Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters?  Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?

Thoughts?  Scripture?

Martin Zender wrote a book about this called Flawed by Design, in which he makes the argument that God created us as flawed finite beings so he could express his love and grace.

[jabcat]

Yes nf, I often entertain that as very real possibility - when I'm "trying to figure it out".


There's more that rises in the morning
Than the sun
More that shines in the night
Than just the moon
There's more than just this fire here
That keeps me warm
In a shelter that is larger
Than this room
There's a loyalty that's deeper
Than mere sentiment
A music higher than the songs
That I can sing
The stuff of earth competes
For the allegiance
I owe only to the giver
Of all good things

So if I stand let me stand on the promise
That You will pull me through
And if I can't let me fall on the grace
That first brought me to You
If I sing let me sing for the joy
That has bornin me these songs
But if I weep let it be as a man
Who is longing for his home

There's more that dances on the prairies
Than the wind
More that pulses in the ocean
Than the tide
There's a love that is fiercer
Than the love between friends
More gently than a mother's
When her baby's at her side

So if I stand let me stand on the promise
That You will pull me through
And if I can't let me fall on the grace
That first brought me to You
If I sing let me sing for the joy
That has bornin me these songs
But if I weep let it be as a man
Who is longing for his home - rich mullins

[WhiteWings]

Yes nf, I often entertain that as very real possibility

I think it's the only interpretation that doesn't cause contradictions elsewhere or questions God's abilities.

If God created a perfect Adam in the way many think what does that say about God's skills/insight.
First He claims Adam is perfect; which means holy and without (the seed of) corruption like Jesus of Himself.
Then just a few verses later we see God kicks out Adam because he obviously didn't act very holy.

What happened?
a] God intended to create a Jesus like Adam but failed because of a design flaw and/or being outsmarted by satan?
b] Things went exactly as designed. Meaning "saw it was perfect" simply means everything fitted perfectly in the big Masterplan?
c] It was good because it worked as designed including the free will component that soon spread like a virus?

I think no Christian goes for option a.

Options b and c although not the same thing can't be discussed in depth without at a certain point in that discussion entering the forbidden zone of free will.
If the total lack of free will is a fact then obviously the answer is  a very clear b]
If not a lengthy discussion is at hand :P

[redhotmagma]

I've been leaning toward the idea that Gen 1 is the new man.  Gen 2 is the old man.  After Gen 2:3, the change in outlook on the earth and man is different.  There is no man to plant, no helper for man.  It is not very good. 

Either way I don't believe God messed up with Adam.

[Deena]

If we believe God is indeed omnicient and omnipotent, the Adam turned out the way God planned, including his creation and fall. There is a very interesting article about the free will issue on remnantbiblestudies.com (or is it .org?).

[WhiteWings]

These articles Deena?

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/intropage_freewill.html