Author Topic: matthew 16:27-28  (Read 1652 times)

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NinjaWizards777

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matthew 16:27-28
« on: November 28, 2009, 04:08:35 AM »
`For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.
  Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.
matthew 16:27-28 (YLT)

I know a pastor gone atheist that brought this verse up in one of his blogs, saying how the end times and the rapture was all a bunch of hogwash(I question the rapture myself but, I digress). Anyway, he was trying to make the case that Jesus must not be coming back, or lied about when since...the time of those disciples have long passed and well, no Jesus yet.

To my mind, there are only two lines of thought you can follow without concluding Jesus was a loon

1) the "death" he is refering to is more of a judgment/punsihment, such as in "for the wages of sin is death..." yada yada.

2) Some of the apostles are miraculously still alive somewhere on Earth today.

The first seems more likely but Im not willing to defend it since, in a sense, we are all born into spiritual "death" anyway. What do you guys think?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 04:23:04 AM »


I vote for #2.
                    : )

Lupac

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 04:49:43 AM »
I wish I could find them.  :sigh: I bet if someone has lived for 2000 years, they'd know enough tricks to stay hidden, although even if they came right now and said who they were, very few people would believe them. A possible #3 is, in the parallel verse, (Maybe Mark?) Jesus says "generation", so some have taken that to mean there will always be followers of Jesus, Christians, until he comes back. A #4 could be about 70AD, but IDK.

aspiring son

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2009, 04:55:49 AM »
What about pentecost? A cloud filled the room and they were filled with God's glory. So they not only saw, but partook in showing a miracle to the witnesses of them speaking in tongues.

Just a thought.

NinjaWizards777

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 05:10:06 AM »
What about pentecost? A cloud filled the room and they were filled with God's glory. So they not only saw, but partook in showing a miracle to the witnesses of them speaking in tongues.

Just a thought.

Yeah but verse 27 seems to be talking very much about the coming judgement, particularly the "and then he will reward each, according to his work". So it seems to be more than just a general, holy spirit appearance of him, but you might be on to something

Offline jfraysse

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 06:45:33 AM »
I think there might be a third possibility.  What if Jesus actually did return to his disciples in their life time and that it was a spiritual second coming?  Even though we have no Biblical record of it, certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Before you dismiss this idea consider that the disciples misread the second coming of Elijah as physical when it was actually a "Spiritual Elijah" in the person of John the Baptist.

In Malachi 4:5  we read "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. But in Matt 17:10-13 we read, "And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist."

It seems to me that the disciples knew of the Elijah prophecy but originally thought that it would be fulfilled physically. But then we read that John came in the Spirit of Elijah. In fact, the angel, in Luke 1:17, said to Zacharias and Elizabeth that, "he (John) will also go before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Also in Matt 11:13-14, Jesus says, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. "And if you are willing to receive it, he (John) is Elijah who is to come."

So isn't Jesus telling His Disciples that "second comings" are (or at least could be)  "Spiritual"?  If so, then Matt 16:27-28 could make sense for a third reason.

Just my two-cents… :2c:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

Lupac

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 07:51:30 AM »
That's very interesting jfraysse, I've never thought of it like that.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 08:16:21 AM »
I think there might be a third possibility.  What if Jesus actually did return to his disciples in their life time and that it was a spiritual second coming?  Even though we have no Biblical record of it, certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Before you dismiss this idea consider that the disciples misread the second coming of Elijah as physical when it was actually a "Spiritual Elijah" in the person of John the Baptist.

In Malachi 4:5  we read "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. But in Matt 17:10-13 we read, "And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist."

It seems to me that the disciples knew of the Elijah prophecy but originally thought that it would be fulfilled physically. But then we read that John came in the Spirit of Elijah. In fact, the angel, in Luke 1:17, said to Zacharias and Elizabeth that, "he (John) will also go before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Also in Matt 11:13-14, Jesus says, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. "And if you are willing to receive it, he (John) is Elijah who is to come."

So isn't Jesus telling His Disciples that "second comings" are (or at least could be)  "Spiritual"?  If so, then Matt 16:27-28 could make sense for a third reason.

Just my two-cents… :2c:
 :hithere:

And please, don't let WillieH know I am 1,964 years old  :LH: :laughing7:   LOVE you  :afFro:

« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 08:35:28 AM by peacemaker »

NinjaWizards777

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 08:32:19 AM »
hmm that is a pretty good observation

so does that mean the actual return of christ will also be spiritual do you think?

Offline Cardinal

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2009, 08:55:39 AM »
And please, don't let WillieH know I am 1,964 years old  :LH: :laughing7:   LOVE you  :afFro:

 :cloud9:  :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 04:47:33 PM »

 
  wonderful JOHN! 
 Believe this with all my heart and soul.
  at least 6 more time this is  said Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   
 those clouds are the witnesses [saints those who sleep in Jesus  and have also risen in Christ /with Him ...
  were  2 or 3 are gathered in His name  ,
 there are so many now   that the power and  glory is incresed with that increse of God  ! 
 in Acts Paul say it   more clear than any The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 


 Act 1:2   Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 


 Act 1:3   To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 


 Act 1:4  And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. 


 Act 1:5   For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 


 Act 1:6   When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 


 Act 1:7   And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 


 Act 1:8   But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 


 Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 


 Act 1:10   And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 


 Act 1:11   Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you  have seen him go into heaven
 
  the Spirit of Christ has always come IN  a cloud/ WITNESS  by DAYand a pillar of Fire by Night .......
 
  It is very Spritual in deed ,, :HeartThrob:

Offline jfraysse

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2009, 06:22:56 PM »
Hey Rosie:  Thanks, Sis for adding those! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Hey Ninja:

Obviously, I see the "Spiritual" Second Coming of Jesus as a real possibility - after all isn't the reality of Jesus in one's life, in effect, a second coming?  And isn't this spiritually revealed?  And NO, I don't believe in no "rapture" either. :winkgrin:

I have studied "end time" verses and OT symbology (figurative language) and think that there is a good chance that most "prophecies" could have been fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.  However, I'm not willing to engage in a heated argument over it nor demand that anyone see it my way.  Frankly, I don't think it matters much.  I'm also NOT a Biblical Inerrantist, but I will not textually challenge the validity of any passages lest I violate the ground rules of this forum.  Fortunately, there are many Bible Topics that don't require "textual criticism" and I don't think the issue at hand is one of them.  While potentially interesting, my attitude toward "Prophecy" is that it can be a major distraction to our spiritual growth and a major source of divisiveness amongst believers.  I choose not to be a part of it. :winkgrin:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

Offline rosered

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2009, 06:49:55 PM »
Hey Rosie:  Thanks, Sis for adding those! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Hey Ninja:

Obviously, I see the "Spiritual" Second Coming of Jesus as a real possibility - after all isn't the reality of Jesus in one's life, in effect, a second coming?  And isn't this spiritually revealed?  And NO, I don't believe in no "rapture" either. :winkgrin:

I have studied "end time" verses and OT symbology (figurative language) and think that there is a good chance that most "prophecies" could have been fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.  However, I'm not willing to engage in a heated argument over it nor demand that anyone see it my way.  Frankly, I don't think it matters much.  I'm also NOT a Biblical Inerrantist, but I will not textually challenge the validity of any passages lest I violate the ground rules of this forum.  Fortunately, there are many Bible Topics that don't require "textual criticism" and I don't think the issue at hand is one of them.  While potentially interesting, my attitude toward "Prophecy" is that it can be a major distraction to our spiritual growth and a major source of divisiveness amongst believers.  I choose not to be a part of it. :winkgrin:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

   I do agree  with your    thoughts  on "prophecy "Bro John ,
 and   this is a powerful    verse if you consider the source of that power !!  :icon_king:
 
 
 Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am your  fellowservant, and of your  brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:
 
  for the testimony of Jesus is the "spirit of prophecy".    same witness/ testimony  in all   fellowservants who believe in Jesus Christ is within our midst/ within us working and finishing the works  , greater works of gathering  all into Himself  ,,,,,,,,,,,,, :HeartThrob:

Offline Molly

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »


I vote for #2.
                    : )
You think some of the apostles are still alive on earth today?  :mshock:

 Can you say more about that?

Offline rosered

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2009, 07:06:40 PM »


I vote for #2.
                    : )
You think some of the apostles are still alive on earth today?  :mshock:

 Can you say more about that?

 
 Hope you dont mind 
  Do you think JESUS  is still here sis ?
 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.    :happy3:
 
 
 
  I remember being  so excited when  reading this verse along with this  verse Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 
 
   the Resurrection   / Christ is continual , heaven opened
  this is the Works of God Jesus come to do for us .. :HeartThrob:

Offline CHB

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2009, 07:46:43 PM »
I think there might be a third possibility.  What if Jesus actually did return to his disciples in their life time and that it was a spiritual second coming?  Even though we have no Biblical record of it, certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Before you dismiss this idea consider that the disciples misread the second coming of Elijah as physical when it was actually a "Spiritual Elijah" in the person of John the Baptist.

In Malachi 4:5  we read "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. But in Matt 17:10-13 we read, "And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist."

It seems to me that the disciples knew of the Elijah prophecy but originally thought that it would be fulfilled physically. But then we read that John came in the Spirit of Elijah. In fact, the angel, in Luke 1:17, said to Zacharias and Elizabeth that, "he (John) will also go before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Also in Matt 11:13-14, Jesus says, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. "And if you are willing to receive it, he (John) is Elijah who is to come."

So isn't Jesus telling His Disciples that "second comings" are (or at least could be)  "Spiritual"?  If so, then Matt 16:27-28 could make sense for a third reason.

Just my two-cents… :2c:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Hi  j,

I have thought this very same thing but can never fully wrap my mind around it. I think what you said is very possible but I know there are things that I don't understand at this point that would bring about a much clearer picture of this if I could. I just can't
seem to get the whole picture focused in my mind. There seems to be something missing, don't know what.

I have also thought that there could have been a literal return of Christ and a literal resurrection that was of the firstfruits, Israel. Doesn't mean that there won't be a literal return of Christ in the future and another literal resurrection.

Just some thoughts I had.

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2009, 09:07:20 PM »
I think there might be a third possibility.  What if Jesus actually did return to his disciples in their life time and that it was a spiritual second coming?  Even though we have no Biblical record of it, certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Dare I to ask....? Yep I do :winkgrin: What if penecost was that return? I know that was the work of the HS but it was also the birth of the Christian church. Gotta add that sounds as a insult seeing todays church. Just a thought.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Barry DuPont

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 09:32:57 PM »
 
I think there might be a third possibility.  What if Jesus actually did return to his disciples in their life time and that it was a spiritual second coming?  Even though we have no Biblical record of it, certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Dare I to ask....? Yep I do :winkgrin: What if penecost was that return? I know that was the work of the HS but it was also the birth of the Christian church. Gotta add that sounds as a insult seeing todays church. Just a thought.

Mat 3:11   I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Jhn 7:39   (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 1:5   For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 2:16   But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 
Act 2:17   And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 
Act 2:18   And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 
Act 2:19   And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 
Act 2:20   The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 
Act 2:21   And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 
 


Act 2:32   This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 
Act 2:33   Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 

So Jesus is the baptizer of the HS from the right hand of God having been then glorified. He Poured forth the spirit upon all flesh.


I would say that this is not the "coming of the Lord". This was viewed in connection with being a guarantee or down payment that that then future coming.

Blessings Barry

 

 

Barry DuPont

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2009, 09:45:26 PM »
Just a question.  :Sparkletooth:

Is it possible that a spiritual coming is a literal coming?

Not to enter into an AD 70 debate for sure.

Just asking though if spiritual can be literal and still not material?

Just a thought,
Barry

Offline jfraysse

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2009, 11:49:42 PM »
Just a question.  :Sparkletooth:

Is it possible that a spiritual coming is a literal coming?

Not to enter into an AD 70 debate for sure.

Just asking though if spiritual can be literal and still not material?

Just a thought,
Barry
Yes, Brother Barry, this is certainly a possibility as well. 

When I spent some time looking at the Olivet Discourse and the actual tense of the Greek, it seemed to me that they WERE accurately translated in the Synoptic Gospels.  If so, then the simplest way to harmonize the words of Jesus in Mt 24 and Luke 17 and those of Paul in 1 Thes 4-5 and 2 Thes 2 and then Daniel 12 and most of Revelation was to accept the idea of fulfillment in the first century via the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

The Bible is a veiled book almost exclusively because its Prophecies are veiled.  Some say Jesus (in Matt 16) is talking about the Transformation in Matt 17;2, but that's only six days later and all disciples are alive.  Some say it's Pentecost.  Well, maybe but that's only 2 months later and, again, everyone is alive expect Judas.  Also why would Paul, Peter, James and John later write about an imminent return if it was decades in the PAST?  This would be a third coming and I don't think there is any biblical evidence for this at all. :mshock:

Just look at all the "imminent time" verses describing "the return": Matt.16:27-28; Lk.21:20-36; Jn.21:22-23; Rom.13:11-12; Heb.8:13; 10:25,37; 1 Pet.4:5,7,17; 1 Jn.2:18; Jude 17-19; Rev.1:1-3,7; 22:6,7,10,20.  It is clear to me that the early Church writers thought that Jesus was coming back quickly and in their approximate generation.  So if this is not true, one would have to rewrite or radically reinterpret all those verses.  Which would you choose?   Maybe it was just a popular cliché at the time or a word of encouragement to say something like "Behold the Lord comes quickly".   You know, kinda like saying, "wuz happening". :dontknow: 

But bottomline, it's just a theory.  However, IMHO it's as good as any other.  Further, it is my opinion that if all this "end times" stuff was SO IMPORTANT it would have been a lot clearer. 

Maybe it's a wicked and adulterous generation (like me?) that seeks to know the future!?  Seriously, how would we react if we actually did know the future?  What would be the function of our faith if we did?

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

Barry DuPont

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2009, 03:47:18 AM »
Hey John
I started leaning toward the fulfillment of all things written about 20 years ago.
Been there fully for the last almost 15 now I think.

Eschatology can be very important and it can be very unimportant.
If we are wasting the earth because we think God is about to destroy it or depriving our family in some way because we think we are about to be ruptured then that is IMO an important error.

If we love God and love people and build relationships in love then eschatology is not what is going to make much difference.

From my own perspectives it's time to get out of the past and look forward. In that way it's important to me in my outlook on life and how I see God's continuing work in his offspring (creation). I'm very excited but yet very concerned.

Just some thoughts and just my opinion.

Very nice to chat with you John.

Barry

Offline jfraysse

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2009, 04:14:43 AM »
Eschatology can be very important and it can be very unimportant.
If we are wasting the earth because we think God is about to destroy it or depriving our family in some way because we think we are about to be ruptured then that is IMO an important error.

Good points, brother Barry!  I must agree - I did not mean to imply that understanding the "end times" was not important at all. :mblush:  Unfortunately, I know many a rapturist with the POV that you posted above.  Of course, I do not agree with them but I gotta love 'em just the same.  Nice to share with you too! :thumbsup:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:13:53 AM by jfraysse »
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

Barry DuPont

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Re: matthew 16:27-28
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2009, 06:44:46 AM »
Eschatology can be very important and it can be very unimportant.
If we are wasting the earth because we think God is about to destroy it or depriving our family in some way because we think we are about to be ruptured then that is IMO an important error.

Good points, brother Barry!  I must agree - I did not mean to imply that understanding the "end times" was not important at all. :mblush:  Unfortunately, I know many rapturist with the POV that you posted above.  Of course, I do not agree with them but I gotta love 'em just the same.  Nice to share with you too! :thumbsup:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

"but I gotta love 'em just the same"  :HeartThrob:
That's the thing right there John!
We gotta for sure. We all have so very much to learn.

We tend to appreciate what we have in common with others and gravitate also in that direction. But what we have in common more than anything else is how much we still don't know.
But when we know that love is the key then we know that's something worth living and so makes the journey oh so much more interesting.
Just a thought.
Barry