Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Book of Revelation

wild beast

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Nathan:
Why would the beast make war with the saints AND OVERCOME THEM if it is our carnal nature? 
Doesn't Paul talk about the war that was going on within him?  I know what I should do but don't, I know what I shouldn't do but do anyway . . .oh what a wretched man I am . ..who can save me from this body of death???  Only the power of the blood of the Lamb can save us from the carnality of ourselves.  Without Christ, the beast rules us.  "They overcame, by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony. . ."  Overcame what?  That's what all these stories beneath the stories have been all about . .. the beast within us rising up against the authority God placed in us.  Satan=adversary.  My carnality is ALWAYS at emnity (war) with God.  It's always in adversity agianst the nature of God.

If the beast is our carnal nature why are there more than one of them?
For me, it's like when Jesus would say . ."the kingdom of God is like . . .a mustard seed . . ."  and then he'd go someplace else and he'd say "the kingdom of God is like a man who dug up a preceious stone in his field . ."  Same kingdom, different manifestation.  It's the same with the beast, we see it in different forms, but it's all the same carnal force within us that's being dealt with.

In verse 18 It refers to THE beast and says 666 is the NUMBER OF A MAN
There are many different parts to the body, but they all make up "one" body.  We are all a part of the body of Christ, we all have a carnal nature at war against our authoritive position.  I've said this bunches of times and I love the message of it.  God is not out to destroy MEN.  he's out to destroy the MAN in men.  666 is not the number of "men".  It's the number of MAN in men.  It's the number of carnal flesh.

all that dwell upon the earth shall worship HIM"...one individual.
Ever notice when something of GREAT magnitude happened, it was ALWAYS at an elevated place?  Moses received the commandments on a mountain . . .a LOT of things happened with Moses on a mountain.  It was on a mountain when the disciples saw the transfiguration of Jesus.  It was on a mountain range that the ark came to rest.  The Garden of Eden was in an elevated place . . .one river flowed "out" of it and divided into four other rivers.  It was in the "upper" room where the spirit was poured out upon all flesh . . .all of these things are pictures of God's nature being connected to "ascended" places.  You can't be an earth-dweller if you expect to walk in the spirit realm of Truth.

In this passage you're talking about . . .the "men upon the earth" were not godly people walking in the spirit, they were merely people who were bound in the flesh, the carnal man and they "worshiped" it by giving themselves over to their lusts and desires . . .that can also apply to religious people as well.  They were the ones that were deaf, blind and dead in the first place.

I agree with you in that literally speaking . .. it's already been fulfilled.


micah7:9:
"Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the NUMBER OF THE BEAST: for it is the NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six [666]" (Rev. 13:18).

Is this indeed what the Greek manuscripts of Rev. 13:18 state? No, it is not.

The Greek word used when only man is meant (always excluding woman), is aner. But the Greek word translated "man" in Rev. 13:18 is not aner, but rather the word anthropos, which means "a human being, male or female." Strong's Concordant.

Furthermore, it is not the number of "a" anything. It is just the number of human or of mankind! Even the Revised Standard Version translators saw this and therefore, states, "It's number is six hundred sixty-six." The number of the wild beast is not the number of "a" man, but rather the number of "man" or "mankind."

micah7:9:

--- Quote from: CHB on August 23, 2011, 10:38:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 02:50:59 AM ---Who is or could be the wild beast in the Book of Revelation 13?

--- End quote ---

I don't understand it all but I believe the beast is/was A man who existed during 70AD, or will exist at the end. I think the beasts of Revelation is certain individual men who had power over certain countries, like Greece, Rome and so forth. Why would the beast make war with the saints AND OVERCOME THEM if it is our carnal nature?  If the beast is our carnal nature why are there more than one of them? These things don't make any sense to me. In verse 18 It refers to THE beast and says 666 is the NUMBER OF A MAN, not men. Verse 8 says "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship HIM"...one individual.

I actually think this has been fulfilled already.

CHB

--- End quote ---

2Jn 1:7  Because, many deceivers, have gone out into the world, they who do not[/b] confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh: This, is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Many deceivers...who do not confess.....THIS= the many, who do not confess....is the antichrist. The antichrist is not just a man, but is man.

jabcat:

--- Quote from: Nathan on August 24, 2011, 01:49:57 AM ---I agree with you in that literally speaking . .. it's already been fulfilled.

--- End quote ---

I'm a partial preterist, but my problem is, I'm not sure what all's been fulfilled and what's yet to be.  :NewB1:

I've been following the Prophecy thread, and had some thoughts.  I didn't want to derail that thread, as it's plugging along at a rapid clip from a futurist perspective.  So I thought I'd post "out here to the side" in this thread, and if anyone wanted to pursue a little different angle of it they could do so here without interfering with Molly's thread - and if not, they can ignore this one. :beach:

 So some thoughts;  with so many differing views about future fulfillment, at some point I wonder "has some of this already happened"?  Do some of these apply to Israel and God's dealings with them in the past?  If so, how much?  Recently the "figurative/spiritual" aspect has been brought up in the Prophecy thread, and I wondered about member Nathan for instance, who I think sees it from both a spiritual and an already fulfilled perspective.  He's sent me a study on Revelation a long time ago that I tried to find and couldn't.  In lieu of that, I found the following interesting.  Although I think it may have some merit, I'm NOT saying what the author is claiming is "all there is to it", I PERSONALLY believe there's more to be fulfilled.  Also, I expect he'll get bashed as a derelict Full Preterist  :laugh:.  but even if he were, I just think (at least parts of) the following may be something to consider.   :2c:

Excerpts from The Beast of Revelation;

"..before we can turn to those passages where the Beast is mentioned, we must deal with some basic issues of interpreting the Revelation. It seems that most people today have not read the first verse of this book, which
would go along way in helping them interpret it. Take note of verse 1:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place...."

Notice verse 3:

".... and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near"

We cannot ignore John's use of these words, because they supply us with important information to the interpretation of this book. Whereas, most believers are awaiting the events described in the book of the Revelation to find their fulfillment in the future, John clearly tells us that the prophecies of Revelation would begin to come to pass within a very short period of time of his writing. He dogmatically states that the events of Revelation were "shortly" to take place, and that the time is "near." Both of these words are significant.

 In addition, John states, "the other has not yet come" (the seventh), "and when he comes, he must remain a little while." Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months.

Further Evidence

"And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...."
                                                                         
                           (Revelation 13:7)

Nero was not only the sixth emperor of Rome, he was the first to persecute Christians. That persecution began in the middle of November 64 A.D. and continued until June 8, 68 A.D. when Nero committed suicide, a period of 42 months. Take note how this fits with Revelation 13:5, which says:

"And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given him."
Is this just another coincidence, or is it more evidence from Scripture as to the identity of the Beast?

Furthermore, John prophesied the death that the Beast would die. The Beast not only slays by the sword, but ultimately is to die of a sword wound.
Revelation 13:10 tells us:

"If anyone leads into captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed."

The fact that Nero killed by the sword is well documented. Paul, for example, is said to have died under Nero by decapitation with a sword. Tertullian credits "Nero's cruel sword" as providing the martyr's blood as seed for the Church. He urges his readers to "Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect."

Likewise, history records that Nero took his own life with the sword. Roman historian Suetonius describes Nero's death: "Then with the help of his secretary, Epaphroditus, he stabbed himself in the throat."

It is interesting, from a historical perspective, that Nero was actually referred to as a "beast" by his contemporaries.  For instance, the pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, who lived at the time of Nero, states: "In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs.... And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero gorged himself on this diet."

Nero ruthlessly murdered his parents, his brother, his pregnant wife (whom he kicked to death) and other family members. He was a homosexual, who found sexual gratification in watching torture. He enjoyed dressing up as a
wild beast and raping male and female prisoners. He illuminated his garden parties with the bodies of Christians, covered with pitch and set aflame.

The whole article on Revelation here - http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/walker-don_pp_01.html

WhiteWings:

--- Quote ---That persecution began in the middle of November 64 A.D. and continued until June 8, 68 A.D. when Nero committed suicide, a period of 42 months. Take note how this fits with Revelation 13:5
--- End quote ---
That's an interesting quote.

Revelation is often linked to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD

Like always there is disagreement but many scholars date the book of Revelation near 90AD. Revelation looks forward in time; meaning the events will take place after 90AD.
So if Revelation is about 63-70AD (7 years) it must have been written before that time.

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