Author Topic: The better land  (Read 13858 times)

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Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2012, 08:38:28 PM »
 WE ARE DOUBLE GARMENTED..BY THE WIFE OF NOBLE CHARACTER......JERUSALEM ABOVE..

   SHE SELECTS WOOL AND FLAX AND WORKS WITH EAGER HANDS[..MEN AS SHEEP/LAMB SLAIN

  BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD..]  AND CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN

  GOD HIMSELF IS THE MIRACLE[A SUPERNATURAL WONDER]  A STRANGE THING...

  MIRUS=WONDERFUL















Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2012, 07:52:26 PM »
The expression "a time, times and a half" is prominent in Daniel chapters 7 and 12. It is the subject of the oath sworn by the person who is described as standing on the waters of the river in Daniel 12:7, who says that in this period of time, everything in Daniel's prophecies will be completed. Daniel wrote:

Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The assumption that this expression represents three and a half literal years is simplistic; there is more to it than that. The two numbers mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 are both related to the "time, times and a half." And the mysterious expression written on the wall during the feast of Belshazzar, the night Babylon fell, is also connected with it. The king of Babylon saw a detached hand writing the words "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin" on the wall, as he was drinking from the golden vessels from the Jerusalem temple.

These words signify three units of Babylonian currency; the Mene is the mina; Tekel is the Assyrian shekel; Upharsin is the pares, or half mina. In Dan. 5:26-28 Daniel interprets these words as meaning "numbered, numbered, weighed, divided." He said:

Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

Tekel; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Wikipedia states:

Although usually left untranslated in English translations of Daniel, these words are known Aramaic names of measures of currency: MENE, a mina (from the root meaning "to count"), TEKEL, a spelling of shekel (from the root meaning "to weigh"), PERES, half a mina (from the root meaning "to divide", but additionally resembling the word for "Persia").

In Ezekiel 45:12, there are 20 + 25 + 15 = 60 shekels in a mina.

In the two expressions of Dan. 5:25 and 7:25, there is an obvious parallel. In each expression, there are three sections. There are two of one quantity, plus half of the same quantity, in each case. A third section consists of another kind of unit.

    Time      2 x Times      Time   
Tekel    Mene, Mene    Peres
Shekel    2 minas      mina

The three monetary quantities in the writing on the wall are illustrated in the 3D graph below.



The expression written on the wall, and the "time, times and a half" are similar because they share the same pattern or structure. And both are about units, in one case, units of currency, and in the other, units of time. Furthermore, there is a parallel in the interpretation of both expressions. None of the wise men of Babylon could figure out the meaning of the writing on the wall, and there has been a similar failure in attempts by the wise men of the world, and the preterists, and the dispensationalists, etc., to figure out the meaning of the "time, times and a half."

Doug
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 08:06:33 PM by Doug »

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2012, 08:28:26 PM »
numbered,numbered..weighed divided..makes me think of the scales..........with measures of leavening

  of sin..that leavens whole..and leaven of Christ that leavens whole.....time of law til Christ come

  in midst of week[Wednesday] or betrothal..another 3 1/2 days to complet week..Grace=..leavening of all lump

     divided also can mean seperated..from leavening of sin.......make an end to all sin.

   Daniel speaks of the saints being overcome ...over powered..and then Ancient of Days comes

  and the kingdom is handed over unto the saints.........

   very interesting tying that with 3 1/2 times to mene mene..........


Offline eaglesway

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Re: The better land
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2012, 07:39:45 AM »
When you add leaven to the lump it becomes something new, the whole thing is leavened. The lump can be leavened with the leaven of the Pharisees or with the leaven of Christ and the divine nature, but not with both. A little leaven leavens the whole lumps, according to the Master.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2012, 12:37:45 AM »
The following chart identifies ten time periods from the prophecies of Daniel, and Revelation, and the words of Jesus. They are shown in diverse colours, and the intent is to illustrate how these prophetic periods relate to one another. One key period, illustrated in bright yellow, is "this generation." This extends from the birth of Jesus, to the end of time, because Jesus was raised from his grave, and lives and reigns forever, and he represents the generation in which he lived.



There are four periods of seven times outlined in Lev. 26, which represent the duration of the curse of the law of Moses, that would come upon Israel if they failed to keep the covenant. This is mentioned in Daniel 9:11. These four periods are shown in white, light yellow, green, and grey boxes. Daniel said that the curse had been poured out, which must refer to the first of the four seven times. The first seven times is identified with the 70 years of exile foretold by Jeremiah, referred to in Daniel 9:4.

The remaining three periods of seven times of Lev. 26 are each connected with one of the three sections of the 70 weeks in this chart. Each of these is "seven times" where "time" takes different units in each section. The last of these, the grey area in the chart, includes the ministry of Jesus, and the whole age of the church, which together make a "week," the first half being the earthly ministry of Jesus, and the last half being a prophetic symbol, representing the whole time of the church. Daniel 9:27 says "And he will confirm the covenant for one week." This is taken to mean the new covenant of the gospel which Jesus established.
   
The last half-week of the 70th week is represented by the 1,335 days of Dan. 12:12, and by the other related numbers that depict a diminishing period. The abomination of desolation is understood to mean the antichrist spirit, that the apostle John said was already present in the church, in the first century. It is believed to have been introduced about the time of the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem and the temple, in 70 A.D., which appears to have been the sign that the desolation of the heavenly city was near.

The purple area at the right illustrates the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14, here interpreted as 23 centuries, which is the duration of another kind of desolation. This period represents the time when the flawed cosmology of the Greeks was dominant. It continued until about the mid-eighteenth century, which was when men realized that no rigid heavenly firmament revolves around the earth, but the earth rotates on its axis. The discoveries of Sir Isaac Newton, and other astronomers were widely accepted about that time. It was 23 centuries after Daniel received his vision, in the 3rd year of Belshazzar.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:19:38 AM by Doug »

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2012, 01:13:56 AM »
Hi Eaglesway....

   I was thinking on the line of sin in flesh being the leavening[or subjected to vanity]  of all men=

   one measure of leavened flour

...and all men raised in Christ through free gift as another= measure of christ-leavened..on the

  balanced scale[sorry if not clear]...perfect justice..the only differential sin and no sin

Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2012, 05:50:27 PM »
The prophetic time periods of 1,290 days, and 1,335 days, are mentioned in Dan. 12:11-12. The 1,260 days is found in Rev. 11:3 and 12:6. Each of these three periods is distinct, because each represents either the church age, or a portion of it. This is a diminishing period. The "time, times and a half" is symbolic, and the numbers associated with it are also symbolic. They are "models" having a character similar to other prophetic symbols. For example, the church is represented by a temple, or a candlestick; Christ is represented by the passover lamb, etc. Likewise, the duration of the church age is represented by three and a half symbolic years, that together with the ministry of Jesus, make a prophetic "week," in which Christ confirms his covenant with his saints. [Dan. 9:27]

Each of the periods associated with the "time, times and a half" differ from a natural three and a half years, as shown in the series of 3D graphs below, which compare the times related to the prophetic "time, times and a half" to a natural three and a half years, according to the Jewish solar-lunar calendar. The natural three and a half years is shown in light green, in each graph. It is a period of three and a half years, where months are lunar months, and one year has 13 months.

1,290 days



1,335 days



1,260 days



The graphs illustrate the differences between the prophetic periods and the natural. I suggest that this distinction of the periods from a natural three and a half years was intended to show that these are spiritual, or figurative periods, not literal earthly days or years. Natural time does not apply to the works of God, which are spiritual in nature. 

The time periods may be explained briefly as follows.

The 1,290 days is the time remaining after the "abomination of desolation" was set up in the church. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." [Dan. 12:11] This began in the first century, probably about the time of the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which was evidently a sign that the desolation of the heavenly city was about to begin. Afterwards, John said "many antichrists" were present.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

There have been "many antichrists" from John's time to the present; they have not gone away.

The 1,335 days represent all the time assigned to the present age of the church. This period began at about the time of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Daniel was told, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Dan. 12:12] The one who waits is Christ. He waits while his church is built and prepared.

The 1,260 days represents the remaining time, after the New Testament was completed; it is the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses. It probably began about the end of the first century. It is the period when the church, represented by the woman in Rev. 12, is nourished in the wilderness. She is nourished by the scriptures, and the Spirit, and the wilderness pictures the saints departing from the corruption of the world.

Doug


« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 06:18:48 PM by Doug »

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2012, 06:29:54 PM »
YEAH, THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE..IS DENYING THE ATONEMENT LAMB CHRIST...

 WHO OFFERED UP HIMSELF ONCE..........DAILY SACRIFICES = KEEP DOING THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME


    1 COR 11;25  THE LORD'S SUPPER...THIS IS MY BODY WHICH IS FOR YOU, THIS CUP IS THE

  NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD,DO THIS WHENEVER YOU DRINK IT IN REMEBRANCE OF ME

   FOR WHENEVER YOU EAT THIS BREAD AND DRINK THIS CUP,YOU PROCLAIM THE LORD'S DEATH

  UNTIL HE COMES.  THEREFORE WHOEVER EATS THE BREAD OR DRINKS THE CUP OF THE LORD IN AN

  [ TWO WITTNESSES= THE BODY AND THE BLOOD]

 UNWORTHY MANNER SINS AGAINST THE BODY OF THE LORD[ABOMINATION].


  13TH MONTH...A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN...THE ...MOON..UNDER HER FEET

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2012, 06:33:06 PM »
 WHEN THE TWO WITTNESSES [BODYAND BLOOD] ARE TOLD TO 'COME UP HERE"  IT IS THE MONTH

  OF THE WOMAN'S DELIVERANCE OF THE MANCHILD

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2012, 06:44:19 PM »
   WHEREVER THE DEAD BODY IS THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER= FOR 3 1/2 DAYS MEN

  FROM EVERY PEOPLE WILL GAZE ON THEIR BODIES AND REFUSE THEM BURIAL...

  THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH WILL GLOAT OVER THEM AND WILL CELEBRATE

  BECAUSE THESE TWO WITTNESSES TORMENTED THOSE WHO LIVE ON EARTH[DID YOU COME

 TO TORMENT US BEFORE THE PROPER TIME?]

  SEE GREAT SUPPER OF THE LORD[GOG'S CROWD  BEAST THAT COMES UP FROM ABYSS THAT

  OVERCOMES TWO WITTNESSES[BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST]

Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2012, 07:44:04 PM »
The chart below shows the relation between the 70 weeks, and the 2,300 days, and "this generation," which is the generation Jesus represents. It runs off the chart at the right, because it continues forever.


Note that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks. Introducing gaps makes no sense in a time prophecy. Paul told Timothy, "hold fast the form of sound words," and I suggest that to say that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks is a sound, reasonable, and true statement one can rely upon. One reason there are no gaps, is that the three sections of the 70 weeks correspond to the last three of the four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26. The first was the exile in Babylon, which Daniel alludes to in Dan. 9:11. And this implies there are no gaps, as any gap requires a lapse in the curse, which in turn requires that Israel was temporarily reconciled to God, and that has not happened. Any reconciliation is permanent.   

No one says there are gaps in the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14. These are interpreted as years in the chart, and this long time period is compared with the 70 weeks.

There are different units in each of the three sections of the 70 weeks. In the first section, which is 7 weeks, the units are leap years in the chart. Daniel's numbers in Dan. 12:11-12, the 1,290 days, and 1,335 days, imply that leap years of 13 months and regular years of 12 months are employed to derive these symbolic numbers, which represent the time, times and a half, or a portion of it, as I discussed in a previous post. Units of leap years also help us interpret the 70 weeks, so that no gap is required between the 70 years of exile in Babylon, and the start of the 70 weeks, at the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC. With leap years as units for the first section, and normal sabbatical cycles as units for the second section, these two sections work out nicely to the start of the ministry of Jesus. The final week, in which Jesus confirms his covenant with many, includes his earthly ministry, and the whole age of the church. Units for the last half week are spiritual, and figurative, because they apply to the heavenly Jerusalem. Earthly units do not apply to spiritual things.

There is no change in the nature of units of the 2,300 days, because this period does not apply to spiritual things. Instead, it refers to the duration of the geocentric cosmology of the Greeks, which passed away about 1750 AD, when men realized the earth revolves on its axis, not the heavens. This was the scientific revolution.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 08:11:59 PM by Doug »

Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2012, 04:47:07 AM »
Genesis chapter 11 records that after the flood, people began to multiply, and they were all of one language, and began to build the tower of Babel, but God came down and stopped the project, by confusing their language, and so they no longer understood each other, and the nations became scattered to different parts of the earth. And so it came to be that every land and nation was associated with a particular language.

The better land of the saints is also a nation, and is associated with a distinctive language. This is mentioned in Isaiah 28, where the prophet says: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." [Isa. 28:9-11] The words "another tongue" specify the language of the prophets. This is also the language of the "better land" mentioned in Hebrews 11:16.

Just as the lands of all the nations are associated with their own language, the spiritual or heavenly land, the better country of the saints, has a language. It is one that must be learned if we are to understand the prophets. It is a language of metaphor and parable, as that was how Jesus taught the people. 

Matthew 13:33-35
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Since Isaiah said that God would speak to his people in "another tongue," the words of the prophets have to be interpreted. Saying that prophecy should be taken literally is not a biblical approach, but it is a doctrine of men.

When we consider the story of Adam and Eve, and how they were banished from Eden, we find a parallel in the history of Israel, and their banishment from the promised land at the exile. When Adam and Eve were banished, they no longer had access to the tree of life. But the story shows that after their banishment, they no longer enjoyed fellowship with God. The ground was cursed for their sake. It was as if their environment became hostile to them.

The better land of the saints reverses this. Paul wrote, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." [Romans 8:28]

This is one of the benefits of the better land. It is a land where Christ reigns as Lord and king; the Jerusalem above is "the city of the great King." [Matt. 5:35]

The heavenly land has mountains, rivers, valleys, towns, plains, trees, and pasture. Jerusalem is said to be a place of "towns without walls."

Zechariah 2:4
And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein.

The earthly Jerusalem has had walls for centuries, and since about 2002, it is partly bounded by an 8 m high concrete wall, with sniper towers, and sections of barbed wire fence, and check points, etc., which extends over 700 km, separating the West Bank of Palestine from the Jewish areas.

The prophecies that speak of Jerusalem as towns without walls, and "a land of unwalled villages," are not speaking of the earthly city. The "land of unwalled villages" is the land which is invaded by the hordes of Gog and Magog, in Ezek. 38. They come against "the mountains of Israel" and "the prophets of Israel." [Ezek. 38:8, 17] But they speak another language. They don't understand the language of the "better land."

They want "silver and gold," and seek to take "a great spoil." Has anyone noticed how often religious Websites provide buttons for people to "Donate"? Hmm...

The prophets often speak of sheep, cattle, and horses; for example the armies of Gog and Magog are "all riding horses." The kingdoms in Daniel 7 are represented by beasts such as lions, bears, leopards. The saints are represented by sheep. In some scriptures false teachers are compared to wolves. Jesus referred to the scribes and pharisees as serpents.

In the better land of the saints, mountains are symbolic; they represent God's promises. This is demonstrated in the blessing Jacob gave to Joseph, where he said that his blessings extended to "the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Gen. 49:26] They were high like mountains, because they were spiritual; Jacob realized that more was promised than literal land. And they were eternal. Similarly the promises of God to the saints are spiritual and eternal. They are the mountains in the better land.

Isaiah said that the mountain of the Lord's house would be established in the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills. When Jesus was resurrected, he ascended to the throne of his Father in heaven. This is the highest "mountain" of all. Jerusalem was also raised up, and became the heavenly Jerusalem. In Zechariah 14:10, Jerusalem is raised up, and the surrounding land becomes a plain. So when Jesus said, "then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains," he was not speaking of earthly mountains. Those in Judaea alludes to the church, and the heavenly mount Zion. According the Zechariah's prophecy, understood spiritually, Jerusalem is the only notable "mountain" in Judaea, as all the surrounding land has been made into a plain! But this is only understood by faith; it is a spiritual concept; the invading hordes of Gog and Magog are blind to it.

Isaiah said, "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married." [Isaiah 62:4]

What land did he mean? Not the earthly land of Canaan. The land he refers to is the "better land" of which Canaan was a shadow, and a figure. The land being married to those who dwell in it, those called out of every nation and country, is a picture of perpetual fidelity to the spiritual things that the land represents. To participate in the wars of worldly governments is contrary to this concept of being "married" to the land that Christ is leading us to.

Daniel referred to this spiritual land as "the glorious holy mountain." It is the mountain that was "established in the top of the mountains" as Isaiah foretold. It would be made desolate by a foreign invader. 

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." [Dan. 11:45]

The glorious holy mountain is the one that Jesus encourages people to flee to. This "better" land is a homeland for the saints of every nation, who come out from the world, and mystical Babylon. "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north," Zechariah wrote. [Zech. 2:6] "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again." [vs. 10-12] It is the heavenly Jerusalem the prophet speaks of here, because Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." [John 4:21-24]

According to Jesus men will no longer worship God at the earthly Jerusalem, or at mount Gerizim; the "better land" is the spiritual inheritance of the saints, and his kingdom is the mountain where the saints come.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 07:37:34 PM by Doug »

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2012, 07:19:40 AM »
 really njoy these posts,Doug....thank you

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2012, 09:53:48 PM »
Psalms 48;8

   As we have heard,so we have seen in the city of the Lord Almighty,

   in the city of Our God......God Himself will establish her forever..

  For Zion's sake I will not keep silent,for Jerusalem's sake I will not remain quiet.....

     til her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch[Sos 8;6]


    He has set His foundation on the Holy Mountain;

   THE LORD LOVES THE GATES OF ZION MORE THAN ALL THE DWELLINGS OF JACOB

   GLORIOUS THINGS ARE SAID OF YOU, O'CITY OF GOD

   I WILL RECORD RAHAB AND BABYLON AMONG THOSE WHO ACKNOWLEDGE ME-

  PHILISTIA TOO, AND TYRE ALONG WITH CUSH- AND WILL SAY.....

   INDEED OF ZION IT WILL BE SAID 'THIS ONE AND THAT ONE WERE BORN IN HER,


  AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER.

  THE LORD WILL WRITE IN THE REGISTER OF THE PEOPLE'S......

  THIS ONE WAS BORN IN ZION[BUT REJOICE THAT YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN/

   WHOSE NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE]

Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2012, 06:09:03 PM »
Preterists say that a key to understanding the Olivet Discourse is the statement of Jesus, that all his prophecies will occur in "this generation." [Luke 21:32] They claim that it was fulfilled in the first century.

Dispensationalists like Hal Lindsay also claim that this saying is a significant key for understanding the prophecy. Lindsay believed the 'Rapture' would likely occur by 1988, which he based on the notion that a generation was 40 years, and 1988 would be 40 years after the founding of the Jewish state in Palestine. But that date passed without a 'Rapture.' Recently some dispensationalists have speculated that perhaps a 'generation' is not 40 years, but 70 years, in which case the period when the 'Rapture' is expected would come to an end in 2018.

I also think that Jesus' reference to "this generation" is highly significant, and indeed it is a key to understanding his entire prophecy, but one should understand the prophecy in the light of Jesus' resurrection from the grave, and the fact that he is alive, and continues to represent his generation. It is a unique generation, as it spans all the time since his birth, and continues forever. The angel said to Mary, "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." [Luke 1:33-34]

Platonists, who believe in Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the human soul, do not understand how the generation of Jesus can be unique; they view it as like any other. Thus, they think that the meaning of "this generation" is either the generation alive in the first century when Jesus ministered, or an end-time generation. They don't believe the words of Paul to Timothy, "... That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." [1 Tim. 6:14-16]

Jesus is the only one who possesses immortality, according to this scripture; and therefore, his generation continues forever. This means that many of the things Jesus describes in the Olivet Discourse and Luke's parallel account span all the time from the first century to the present.

Jesus said that when Jerusalem is compassed with armies, "then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." [Luke 21:20] The Jerusalem he meant, may be either the earthly one, or the heavenly one, or, he may have alluded to both, meaning that when the earthly Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, the desolation of the heavenly city was nigh. The heavenly city has been compassed by spiritual armies, in all centuries since then. This is what Peter foretold in 2 Peter 2.

In Luke 21:21 Jesus said, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains." He must have meant flee to the promises of God that the mountains represent. Otherwise, this saying would contradict his statement in Luke 17:33, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

I suggest the "days of vengeance" in Luke 21:22, when "all things which are written are fulfilled," are not limited to seven years at the end of the age, as dispensationalists say; neither are they the days preceding the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem as preterists claim, but they span all the time since the first century. Christ has been reigning over all, bringing his word to pass.

In verse 23, "them that are with child," and "them that give suck" should be understood in the light of the terminology of the gospel; Peter refers to the word of God as "milk." He said, "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." [1 Peter 2:2] Them that "give suck" are those teaching and preaching the word. And Paul spoke of himself as a spiritual mother who "travails in birth" over the Galatian Cristians: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you." [Gal. 4:19-20]

So, "them that are with child" in the Olivet Discourse does not necessarily refer to girls or women who are pregnant, but to those who are ministers, who have spiritual responsibility for others.

In Luke 21:24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled," refers to the Christian church, the Jerusalem above, not the earthly city. After the age of the apostles it became dominated by Gentiles, men who lacked the spirit and wisdom of God. And this continues today. The prophecy is parallel to Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

The outer court represents the worldly, outward, superficial kind of Christianity. This is also depicted in a prophecy of Daniel:

Daniel 11:33-35
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

This part of the prophecy clearly shows it is not specifically referring to events in the first century. The sun represents the gospel; the woman in Revelation 12:1 is clothed with the sun. She has the moon at her feet. This woman represents the church, those of whom Paul said: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Eph. 2:4-6]

Other scriptures show the sun becoming black like sackcloth. It means the truth of the gospel has been obscured; its message has been changed from light to superstition. The idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers is an example of this. It fulfills Peter's prophecy in 2 Peter 2:1-3, and the whole chapter about false teachers who would come into the church.

"The sea and the waves roaring" is hardly limited to the first century, or to a future seven years; rather it refers to spiritual confusion among the people of the world. The sea refers to the people of the nations, in Revelation.

Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Isaiah also refers to men in unbelief as a "troubled sea."

Isaiah 57:20
But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

Perhaps Jesus was referring to the spiritual confusion and chaos among the nations of the world, when he spoke of "the sea and the waves roaring."

Also, note that Paul speaks of "winds of doctrine" in Eph. 4:14. Jesus spoke of winds and rain in Matt. 7:24-27.

Luke 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Again, this seems to allude to spiritual turmoil, both in the church and in the world; the "powers of heaven" may be the spiritual powers and principalities, with whom the saints wrestle. [Eph. 6:12]

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Christ "coming in a cloud" alludes to Daniel 7:13-14, "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

The saints are referred to as a "cloud of witnesses." [Heb. 12:1-3] Those who teach the word are called a "cloud" because the word is represented by "rain."

Isaiah 55:10-12
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Christ is seen in the clouds of his witnesses like rainbows are sometimes seen in clouds that bring the rain.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:20:47 PM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: The better land
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2012, 06:15:41 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Recently some dispensationalists have speculated that perhaps a 'generation' is not 40 years, but 70 years, in which case the period when the 'Rapture' is expected would come to an end in 2018.

That makes sense to me, or sooner.   'This generation' is the generation that sees all these things fulfilled mentioned in Mat 24.   It will all happen in the span of one generation, that is, very fast.


whoops, Carry on. :Peace2:

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2012, 07:03:17 PM »
anytime,I see a rainbow..it always brings to my mind...the promises of God...especially the 'NEVER AGAIN"

  as what was spoken in Noah's day...and in 'never again will I rebuke thee " spoken by God to Jerusalem above

   never to drink of the cup of His wrath again.....thus salvation...saved from wrath..through Christ..whose

  body is the ark..even the 'word of God come in flesh"...and raised up in Heaven=testimony/ark of covenant

   when God told David He would build him a house[eternal]   He said He would discipline sons.. but never take away

  His covenant/annointing like He did with Saul...[sure mercies]

   Jesus also speaks of days like Noah......instructs His to look up[ark of testimony seen in heaven]

=Heavens opened Rev 11;19[treasure reserved in heaven/floodgates of heaven..that pour out a blessing

  until there is no more want[out of your belly shal flow waters of life]  TRUE TESTIMONYt]  accusor thrown out

   
  Born from above of free woman...followed by persecution=nations misled/floodwaters of dragon[

Offline thinktank

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Re: The better land
« Reply #92 on: October 27, 2012, 02:04:57 AM »
but Peter said that Gods wrath would be revealed from heaven to the ungodly.

seeing it is a righteous thing to God to seek vengeance on those that persecute you.

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #93 on: October 27, 2012, 02:33:04 AM »
yes...the dragon persecuted the woman.....and got thrown out of heaven unto the earth...where he went off

  to make war with the woman's offspring.......

   p.s.   the dragon is ungodly...is not of the spirit of God

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2012, 10:17:11 PM »
thinking about Doug's refernce to the 'language' of the new land...Based of prophecy...and

  the 'pure' language. Also brought to mind thefalse prophet and the power given over every

  people,language and tongue.  He that is able to control the 'TONGUE" even being a perfect man

   speaking of the gift of tongues in the body.1 Cor 12;  and ch 14 and the gift of prophesy.

    spiritual edification of the individual member'tongue expressed'..or pure language,perfect

  prophesy..that the whole body be edified into the mind of Christ/understand.

    THE SPIRITS OF PROPHETS ARE SUBJECT TO CONTROL OF THE PROPHETS...AND IF

  A REVELATION COMES TO SOMEONE WHO IS SITTING DOWN,THE FIRST SPEAKER SHOULD

STOP.  FOR YOU CAN ALL PROPHESY IN TURN,SO THAT EVERYONE MAY BE INSTRUCTED

   AND ENCOURAGED.

    WOW.........this is really the first time I have ever seen these scriptures  make so much sense.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The better land
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2012, 01:51:07 AM »
I prefer Charles Krauthammer, but that is just my opinion. Yes it was sarcastic. :eek:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: The better land
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2012, 02:48:34 AM »
 sarcasm ll sarcasmos..Greek sarkasmos, sarkezein,to tear flesh like dogs.....speak bitterly

   sarcos=flesh ,< IEbase'twerk' to cut

    New World Dictionary of the American Language

   diction- to speak to say.....to accuse, to teach

   KEEP PUTTING UP WITH ONE ANOTHER IN LOVE

  BECAUSE OF THE INCREASING OF LAWLESSNESS THE LOVE OF THE MANY WILL WAX COLD

  HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED

 wonderful things are happening,Micah.  Don't give out,Brother :friendstu:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The better land
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2012, 07:46:51 AM »
thinking about Doug's refernce to the 'language' of the new land...Based of prophecy...and

  the 'pure' language. Also brought to mind thefalse prophet and the power given over every

  people,language and tongue.  He that is able to control the 'TONGUE" even being a perfect man

   speaking of the gift of tongues in the body.1 Cor 12;  and ch 14 and the gift of prophesy.

    spiritual edification of the individual member'tongue expressed'..or pure language,perfect

  prophesy..that the whole body be edified into the mind of Christ/understand.

    THE SPIRITS OF PROPHETS ARE SUBJECT TO CONTROL OF THE PROPHETS...AND IF

  A REVELATION COMES TO SOMEONE WHO IS SITTING DOWN,THE FIRST SPEAKER SHOULD

STOP.  FOR YOU CAN ALL PROPHESY IN TURN,SO THAT EVERYONE MAY BE INSTRUCTED

   AND ENCOURAGED.

    WOW.........this is really the first time I have ever seen these scriptures  make so much sense.

Eze 13:9  "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.

Yahweh rules in the council of the Elohim. He is a God of Fellowship, many becoming one in the all in all.

"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
(Zec 3:7)

The councils of the Lord are open to those who seek His will and lay down their lives, closed to those who are carnal, still seeking the praises of men(He that speaks from himself seeks his own glory, the one who seeks the glory of the One who sent him speaks the words of the One who sent him)

Eze 28:14  "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

The temple of the Lord has three chambers, the innermost chamber is where the stones of fire are, beneath the wings of the cherubim(which symbolize the praises of the "great congregation" sounding like the rushing of many waters, like the sound of 10,000s of 10,000s)

A spirit of praise opens the heavens for the quickening word to begin to flash from prophet to prophet, and we are a nation of prophets

Let the prophets prophesy two or three and let the others judge..... for all may prophesy that all may learn and be edified....For if one come in and all prophesy then the secrets of their hearts will be revealed and they will fall down and say, "Truly, God is in the midst of you".......for the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Heb 4:12 The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword,....dividing asunder soul and spirit.....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

When the spirit of prophecy flourishes the testimonies of the saints overcome the evil one. The word of the Lord multiplies and the Lord adds daily. The unleashing of the prophetic word pierces the veil and opens the holy of holies and the voice of God thunders among the saints and the glory of God floods the temple. The city is set on the hill, the Lamp upon the lampstand.

Lev 16:12  "He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil.
Eze 1:13  In the midst of the living beings there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches darting back and forth among the living beings. The fire was bright, and lightning was flashing from the fire.

We are the coals, the lightnings flash back and forth as the prophets prophecy(by prophecy I simply mean inspired speech, anointed tongues  over flaming hearts)

 "It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!'
(Zep 1:12)

A Psalm of Asaph. God(elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty(el); he judgeth among the gods(elohiym). How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods(elohiym); and all of you are children of the most High(elyon). But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God(elohiym), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
(Psa 82:1-8)


The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy- God stands in the midst of the prophets when they are subject to one another, when iron sharpens iron, when they make room for the grace of God in one another, then the lightnings flashes among the coals of fire and the judgments/counsels of God are revealed.







The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Paul L

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Re: The better land
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2012, 09:56:18 AM »

Eze 13:9  "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.

Yahweh rules in the council of the Elohim. He is a God of Fellowship, many becoming one in the all in all.

"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
(Zec 3:7)

The councils of the Lord are open to those who seek His will and lay down their lives, closed to those who are carnal, still seeking the praises of men(He that speaks from himself seeks his own glory, the one who seeks the glory of the One who sent him speaks the words of the One who sent him)

Eze 28:14  "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

The temple of the Lord has three chambers, the innermost chamber is where the stones of fire are, beneath the wings of the cherubim(which symbolize the praises of the "great congregation" sounding like the rushing of many waters, like the sound of 10,000s of 10,000s)

A spirit of praise opens the heavens for the quickening word to begin to flash from prophet to prophet, and we are a nation of prophets

Let the prophets prophesy two or three and let the others judge..... for all may prophesy that all may learn and be edified....For if one come in and all prophesy then the secrets of their hearts will be revealed and they will fall down and say, "Truly, God is in the midst of you".......for the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Heb 4:12 The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword,....dividing asunder soul and spirit.....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

When the spirit of prophecy flourishes the testimonies of the saints overcome the evil one. The word of the Lord multiplies and the Lord adds daily. The unleashing of the prophetic word pierces the veil and opens the holy of holies and the voice of God thunders among the saints and the glory of God floods the temple. The city is set on the hill, the Lamp upon the lampstand.

Lev 16:12  "He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil.
Eze 1:13  In the midst of the living beings there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches darting back and forth among the living beings. The fire was bright, and lightning was flashing from the fire.

We are the coals, the lightnings flash back and forth as the prophets prophecy(by prophecy I simply mean inspired speech, anointed tongues  over flaming hearts)

 "It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!'
(Zep 1:12)

A Psalm of Asaph. God(elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty(el); he judgeth among the gods(elohiym). How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods(elohiym); and all of you are children of the most High(elyon). But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God(elohiym), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
(Psa 82:1-8)


The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy- God stands in the midst of the prophets when they are subject to one another, when iron sharpens iron, when they make room for the grace of God in one another, then the lightnings flashes among the coals of fire and the judgments/counsels of God are revealed.

So be it.........all praise to Him beyond all the ages when the greatest veil of them all is finally lifted......

Doug

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Re: The better land
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2012, 04:58:53 PM »
The language of the better land is a language of truth and sincerity of heart. James said, "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." [James 1:26]

To bridle the tongue is a metaphor, which alludes to the tongue as if it were a horse. In scripture, the tongue refers to language, and speech, or words, whether spoken or written.

Paul said the church is the house of God, and "the pillar and ground of the truth." [1 Timothy 3:15]

Keeping the tongue under control, and "speaking the truth in our heart" are essential qualifications of those who dwell in the "better land." David said,

Psalm 15:1-3
Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

Those dwelling in the "better land" are those in whom there is "no guile." David wrote:

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

For Jesus, a genuine Israelite was a person without guile.

John 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Paul spoke of the people of God as those who are "circumcised in heart." 

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

By nature, man is uncircumcised. When an Israelite male was circumcised, a certain portion of his flesh was removed. The ritual depicted the fact that a spiritual operation is required for humans to be accepted by God, because by nature, our hearts are uncircumcised in a spiritual sense. There is something that needs to be removed. Thus the prophets spoke of being "circumcised in heart." Moses said, "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." [Deut. 10:16]

David prayed that God would create in him a clean heart and a right spirit.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] He did not mean Jews after the flesh, but those whose circumcision is "of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter."

Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman,

John 4:22-24
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Paul fought against the notion that physical circumcision was needed for Gentile believers to be acceptable to God. He knew that the main thing was the spiritual change brought about by the spirit. Circumcision of the flesh was of no account; it was a symbol of a change in the heart, and a spiritual state.

The 144,000 who are sealed, and who stand upon mount Zion in Revelation 14:5, are saints in whom there is "no guile." "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

In chapter 7, these 144,000 saints are identified with the 12 tribes of Israel.

The ones who enter the holy city in Revelation 21:27 are people who do not lie. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

They are pure in heart. Peter wrote: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently." [1 Peter 1:22]

Jesus said "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." [Matthew 5:8]

They "see" in a spiritual sense. The "eyes of  their understanding" are enlightened.

Ephesians 1:17-19
 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

The eyes, and heart, are referred to in a spiritual sense.

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

The "heart" is symbolic and is connected with one's desire for the knowledge of God and truth; the "eye" represents spiritual insight and understanding.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 05:14:24 PM by Doug »