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Doug

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The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« on: December 16, 2009, 12:48:41 AM »
Hyper-preterism says all the prophecies of scripture were fulfilled in the first century, including Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. But the things included in the 70 weeks, such as "finish the transgression," and "make an end of sins," obviously have not yet been fulfilled. Transgressions and sins have been prevalent throughout all the centuries since 70 AD, throughout the world.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy predicted the coming of the Messiah after the first 69 weeks, and in the final week, Christ confirms his covenant with many. But in the midst of the week in which Christ confirms his covenant, sacrifices and oblations would cease. History shows that occurred in 70 AD when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed. 

Hyper-preterism has to invoke a gap in the 70th week, to span a period of about 40 years from the crucifixion to the destruction of the temple. Dispensationalism also invokes a gap in the 70 weeks, but a much larger one, between the 69th and 70th weeks. They claim a literal seven years of tribulation will occur at the end of the age, so their gap has spanned nearly 2,000 years.

The problem for both hyper-preterism and dispensationalism in interpreting Daniel's prophecy is that their alleged gaps destroy the 70 weeks prophecy, or do great violence to it. A prophecy about time fails when any gap is involved, as time has no gaps!
   
Interpreting the last half-week as already fulfilled is a difficult problem for hyper-preterists, as the sacrifices and oblations were said to end in the midst of the week. That seems to require that Christ continued to confirm his covenant for a period of "a time, times, and a half" after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD!

The basic pattern of "a time, times, and a half" is based on half of "seven times." The concept of "seven times" links to Leviticus 26. There are four periods of "seven times" listed here.

The Jewish calendar, like the Babylonian calendar, was lunar-solar, and contained years of either 12 or 13 lunar months.

In Daniel's prophecies, the "time, times, and a half" is given in two variants, 1,290 days and 1,335 days. These are different combinations of 12 and 13 month years, with months of 30 days. The 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11 is one year of 13 months, and the rest of 12 months. The 1,335 days of Daniel 12:12 is one year of 12 months, and the rest of 13 months. In the corresponding periods of John's prophecies in Revelation 11, 12, and 13, all the years are of 12 months. So all these numbers are variations on "a time, times, and a half." The same is true of the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5.

What is the "time, times, and a half"? It is the final half of the 70th week of Daniel 9. It is also the final half of the last of four periods of "7 times" in Leviticus 26.

In Leviticus 26, God is reconciled to Israel, and remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the last period of "7 times."

Now Daniel says the curse was poured out, in the Babylonian captivity, in Daniel 9:11. So that must be the first of the four "7 times" in Leviticus 26. The last three periods of "7 times" may be identified with the three sections of the 70 weeks. In that case, the 2nd "7 times" is the 7 weeks; the 3rd "7 times" is the 62 weeks, and the 4th and last "7 times" is the final week. A "week" is "7 times." But the units of "time" in the 3 sections varies. If they were all the same, why have three sections?

One thing to notice is that there can be no gap in the 70 weeks, if they are related to Leviticus 26. A gap would imply a lapse in the curse, and that God was temporarily reconciled to his people. But that has not happened; any reconciliation must be permanent.

The 70th week is when Christ "confirms the covenant with many." Paul identified God's covenant with Abraham as the gospel in Galatians 3:8; Christ's "week" of confirming the covenant began when he was baptized by John the Baptist. God's promise to remember his covenant with Abraham was mentioned in a prophecy given by John's father Zacharias.

Luke 1:67-75
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


Daniel 9:27 shows that the abolition of sacrifices and oblations was to occur "in the midst of the week." It occurred as a result of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

The numbers provided in various prophecies show that the last half-week cannot be a literal three years and a half. No literal three and a half years has 1,260 days, or 1,290 days, or 1,335 days. These numbers all point to an interpretation of the "time, times, and a half" as symbolic. And the ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 occurs all over the world, not merely Jerusalem; Christ suffered "without the gate." [Hebrews 13:12] John refers to the world as "Egypt" and "Sodom" as those were both places from which God's people escaped. The great city is mystical Babylon.

The 69 weeks of the first two sections of the 70 weeks point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, not the end of it. Isaiah said Cyrus would be the one to give the decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple. [Isaiah 44:28] The decree of Cyrus was probably given in 538 BC.
   
If the first 7 weeks of the 70 weeks are taken to be 49 leap years of 13 months, as in the ancient Hebrew and Babylonian calendars, the 70 weeks can be counted from the decree of Cyrus. There are 7 leap years in 19 years, so 49 leap years span 133 years. Taking the second section of the 70 weeks as 62 sabbatical cycles, the first two sections of the 70 weeks span 567 years, and ended in 28 AD, when the ministry of Jesus began. The ministry of Jesus was the first half of the 70th week. The crucifixion probably occurred in 30 AD. The last half-week, the "time, times and a half," completes the 70 weeks prophecy. It is the age in which we are now, and spans all the time since the crucifixion. 

Doug

Zeek

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 02:55:59 AM »
But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.


…this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)


…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8)

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

5…the gospel 6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing… (Col. 1:5b-6)

…the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Col. 1:23b, KJV)

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Offline peacemaker

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 03:06:26 AM »
A leap through time?

Now that's amazing, considering the third or forth generation.

peacemaker

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 04:27:13 AM »
Which is why I'm only a partial preterist.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 04:41:43 AM »
Which is why I'm only a partial preterist.

Me too Doc. I believe much has happened, much will happen.  Sometimes discerning which is which can be pretty important, and we need to look closely - who/what/when.  My  :2c:.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 04:44:55 AM by jabcat »

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 05:05:50 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Zeek

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 05:52:22 AM »
Which is why I'm only a partial preterist.

Me too Doc. I believe much has happened, much will happen.  Sometimes discerning which is which can be pretty important, and we need to look closely - who/what/when.  My  :2c:.

I'd be interested Jabcat in understandiing why discering which is which is important??  Does it really make a difference?? Just wondering what u think regarding this.  thanks

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 05:59:44 AM »
Sure, rightly dividing the Word of truth.  Some people hate the word and concept, but -context-.  The guy told to go get the donkey for Jesus, was for him to do.  I'm sure there may be spiritual applications there for me, i.e., obedience, trust, humility, etc., etc., but I'm not gonna go out lookin' for a donkey.  Also (which I'll take a guess that's what you may be getting at) I believe some things were PRIMARILY said to the Jews and/or certain other groups for various purposes and various times.  Spiritual applications as well, but I'm talking about the primary application.  I think that can be a difficult task and that we mess it up a lot - applying meanings to things sometimes that may or may not fit.

Did I set you up well for your next point?   :laughing7:  

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 06:06:22 AM »
P.S.  More general comments - I know the arguments about context, how NT writers supposedly "took things out of context from the OT", etc.  However, my position is, they were at that time "creating" (the Holy Spirit through them) the scriptures for us, which BECAME our context.  We're not writing the scriptures today (or best not be  :Sparkletooth:) so I believe we are to rightly divide them, not reach and grab whatever fits our particular POV.  ("are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?" - Gary Amirault   :thumbsup:)

I also realize this is a big tenet of Preterism, who/what/when, and I do believe there's much to be paid attention to there - and I believe we've missed a lot of it, and jumbled a bunch of it up at times.  (For instance, I can take 3 or 4 hand-picked verses, on many different topics, and "justify" many things that in totality and in context, the scriptures don't actually teach - "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth", etc. - really, who/what/when?)

I just personally believe there are still some major things to occur that will bring us to the consummation, when all things are subdued, handed over to the Father Who becomes All in All - and (though I'm admittedly sketchy on some details) there is a process to occur to get us to that "place".

God bless, James.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 06:14:51 AM by jabcat »

Zeek

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 06:16:04 AM »

Did I set you up well for your next point?   :laughing7:  

??

did u think I was trying to set u up in order to make a point??  I wasn't, just genuinely wondered.  peace.

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2009, 06:29:59 AM »
It's OK brother, I'm laughing.  I thought you might be heading somewhere with it, and it's OK if you wanna.  If not, it's not the first time I've been wrong...even tonight!

Knowing you a little bit, I know you've got some more thoughts on this topic, but it is a bit of a sticky one lately, huh?  Sorry for my bad guess, peace to you too.   :handshake:

Zeek

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 06:42:23 AM »
It's OK brother, I'm laughing.  I thought you might be heading somewhere with it, and it's OK if you wanna.  If not, it's not the first time I've been wrong...even tonight!

Knowing you a little bit, I know you've got some more thoughts on this topic, but it is a bit of a sticky one lately, huh?  Sorry for my bad guess, peace to you too.   :handshake:

no prob.  i'm tired tonight, and read too much into your statement.  Good night.

Barry DuPont

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 02:29:26 PM »
But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.


…this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)


…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8)

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

5…the gospel 6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing… (Col. 1:5b-6)

…the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Col. 1:23b, KJV)

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.



Hey Zeek and everyone.
What a wonderful post Zeek.
And while you are just expressing yourself, imo a very valuable point should be made about these very verses.

The "world", the "all nations" and the "heaven" of Jesus and Paul were not the same "world", "all nations" and "heaven" of the biblical futurist or partial preterist.  

And no amount of twisting and turning is going to make this very evident problem go away.

Of course if the kingdom which was then "at hand" is now Universal because the end did come because God rains on the Just and the Unjust, and He causes His sun to shine on the Just and the Unjust, then that would explain it all! It's a revelation of the unconditional love of God for all time. When we come to terms with that love we are saved between the ears.

this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:  
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:  

Col 1:5   For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  
Col 1:6   Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace  

Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Blessings to all
Barry
 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 03:28:39 PM by Barry DuPont »

Doug

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2009, 05:03:21 PM »
But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.


…this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)


…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8)

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

5…the gospel 6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing… (Col. 1:5b-6)

…the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Col. 1:23b, KJV)

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.



Hey Zeek and everyone.
What a wonderful post Zeek.
And while you are just expressing yourself, imo a very valuable point should be made about these very verses.

The "world", the "all nations" and the "heaven" of Jesus and Paul were not the same "world", "all nations" and "heaven" of the biblical futurist or partial preterist.  

And no amount of twisting and turning is going to make this very evident problem go away.

Of course if the kingdom which was then "at hand" is now Universal because the end did come because God rains on the Just and the Unjust, and He causes His sun to shine on the Just and the Unjust, then that would explain it all! It's a revelation of the unconditional love of God for all time. When we come to terms with that love we are saved between the ears.

this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:  
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:  

Col 1:5   For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  
Col 1:6   Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace  

Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Blessings to all
Barry
 

Barry and Zeek say that because Paul said the gospel was preached in all the world, the end must have happened in the first century.

Acts 2:1-6
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.


So on that day of Pentecost, when the gospel was preached by the Apostles, there were Jews representing "every nation under heaven" who heard it. Thus, the gospel was preached, and went to every nation, when those Jews who had heard the message returned to their own lands and countries.

Later, Paul and others preached the gospel directly to Gentiles, in their cities. In that age, the gospel certainly did go to the entire world, as it was then known. At least it went to the civilized world.

Zechariah said that all nations would come against Jerusalem.

Zech. 14:2-3
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


Did all nations participate in the siege in 70 AD? No, it was just the Roman armies. Preterists want to claim "all nations" were represented by the Romans, because of mercenaries in the armies, but that won't help, as the rest of Zechariah's prophecy was not fulfilled. Did Christ come and fight against the Romans? No, the Jews were miserably defeated. Did the Mount of Olives cleave in the midst, forming a great valley, where the people could flee to? No, it is still much the same as it was, when Jesus stood there giving his Olivet Discourse to his disciples.

Were the invaders struck with this awful plague?

Zech. 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


No, there is no record of this happening.

What about horses, mules, camels, and asses?

Zech. 14:15
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.


None of those animals were affected either.

But, in our day, the church is under siege by many thousands of sects and denominations, and competing interpretations of scripture and of prophecy. There are the dispensationalists on the one hand, preterists on the other. There are Orthodox and Protestant, liberal and conservative, you name it, as many as 38,000 denominations! Zechariah's prophecy is a great metaphor, in which the city of Jerusalem represents the church! Zechariah 12:3 says "I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people." I suggest this is the "stone" that became a mountain, and is to fill the entire earth, Dan. 2:35; and the stone that Peter called a "stone of stumbling."

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


Zechariah's prophecy is interpreted by John in Rev 20:8-9. The church is the "camp of the saints" and "the beloved city."

The invaders include people with no understanding, who are represented by horses and mules.

Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.


Those horses with no understanding, who fight at Jerusalem, will be affected by the plague! It is a spiritual one, that affects the eyes, causing spiritual blindness; and the tongue; perhaps this means they say ridiculous things; and it affects the flesh. The doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus was compared to "canker" or gangrene by Paul. [2 Timothy 2:16-18] Zechariah's prophecy applies to our time!

Doug

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 08:19:42 PM »
 :cloud9: I agree Doug........it is a progressive revelation thru the ages. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Barry DuPont

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2009, 04:33:42 AM »
:cloud9: I agree Doug........it is a progressive revelation thru the ages. Blessings...

Cardinal,
are you saying that you know of progressive revelation that extends beyond that which Christ himself called the "world", and "all nations" and that which Paul saw as fulfilled in his time?

Could you please explain the scriptural premise of this revelation of progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ?

Blessings Barry

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2009, 05:06:25 AM »
 :cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Barry DuPont

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2009, 06:19:24 AM »
:cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is progressive within the transition of the ages. There is a lot of progressive points there. It is not however progressive beyond the words of Christ. As to redefine the meanings that Christ gave to world and all nations.

The words of Christ clearly explain the parameters of "the world" and "all nations" as pertains to "the end". Progressive revelation beyond this is to redefine the parameters of Christ's original words as given.

A progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ seeks to redefine the original meanings of Christ as giving from the original perspectives that Christ gave them. 

Said parameters were limited to the sphere of the influence of Israel in it's covenantal standings. The gospel was not preached to the nations or the world beyond that sphere of influence.
Iceland and England and many other areas well known to both Jesus and Paul were never in question.

Redefining those parameters is adding or subtracting to the words of Christ and to the fulfillment that Paul by inspiration had registered or declared as having taken place in which the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

What is the premise for doing this?
Who are we to redefine "world", "under heaven", and "all nations" because of our personal agenda??
What is the pemise for doing so?
Blessings Barry

Doug

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2009, 07:21:06 AM »
Daniel shows in his prayer of confession in Daniel 9 that his interest and concern was about the city of Jerusalem, and the people of Israel, and with the fulfilment of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and with the words of prophets such as Jeremiah.

Dispensationalists take a literal view of prophecy, and insist that Daniel's prophecies apply to the Jews, and certainly could not apply to the church, which according to them was not foreseen by the prophets of the OT. They refer to the church age as a "parenthesis," or a kind of side show in God's plan, which they allege is primarily about establishing national Israel in peace and prosperity in the land of Palestine.

However, the apostle Peter discredited the claims of dispensationalism when he said that the prophets wrote about the gospel, "the grace that should come unto you," and said that they ministered not unto themselves, or to the Jews, but "unto us," that is, the church, and that they wrote by the spirit of Christ that was in them, [1 Peter 1:9-12] which dispensationalism denies.

Peter's insight can be applied to the prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks. The city and sanctuary mentioned in Daniel's prophecy would then refer to the church. Daniel's people would be the prophets, and the faithful saints of the OT era, and the saints who believe in Christ, all who are written in the book mentioned in Daniel 12:1, which must be the book of life, that John refers to in Revelation.

The application of the 70 weeks prophecy to the church is suggested especially by the mention of a temple in Dan. 9:27, immediately after the statement that sacrifices and drink offerings would cease in the midst of the last week. These ceased in 70 AD, when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed. Why would Daniel say the temple was to become desolate, after it was destroyed? The one which becomes desolate must be a different temple. And the temple that remained, after Herod's temple was destroyed, was the church.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel would be something recognized in the future, not simply by some public announcement, but by a deep insight and understanding. Jesus often said we need to "watch." This surely would not apply to some desecration of Herod's temple. Jesus had just declared that not one stone of it would be left upon another, indicating its complete destruction. Below is a comment on the meaning that should be attached to the phrase.

The Imperial Bible-dictionary
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZMECAAAAQAAJ

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. This striking and somewhat enigmatical expression occurs properly but once in the English Bible; namely, in the address delivered by our Lord to his disciples respecting the destruction of Jerusalem and the last days, Mat. xxiv. 15; Mar. xiii. 11. But as there introduced it is given as a quotation from the prophet Daniel--"When ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand"--although when we turn to Daniel the precise expression is not found in the English Bible. This arises from the translation of the Septuagint being adopted by our Lord (*** *** ***), the exact equivalent to which in English is "abomination of desolation," while the original in Hebrew slightly differs. The passage actually referred to is Da. ix. 27, where our translators render "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." This, however, is not the most accurate rendering; it should rather be "over top of abominations (will be) the desolator," or destroyer. And so again in two other passages, which are generally understood to point to the Maccabean times- "And they shall place (or set up) the abomination, the desolator," ch. xi. 31, and "till the abomination that desolates," ch. xii. 11. The chief difference among commentators, as to the meaning of the expression, has respect to the point, whether the abomination, which somehow should carry along with it the curse of desolation, ought to be understood of the idolatrous and corrupt practices which should inevitably draw down desolating inflictions of vengeance, or of the heathen powers and weapons of war that should be the immediate instruments of executing them. There appear to be conclusive reasons for understanding the expression of the former. 1. By far the most common use of the term abomination or abominations, when referring to spiritual things, and especially to things involving severe judgments and sweeping desolation, is in respect to idolatrous, and other foul corruptions. It was the pollution of the first temple, or the worship connected with it by such things, which in a whole series of passages is described as the abominations that provoked God to lay it in ruins, 2 Ki. xxi 2-13; Je. vii. 10-14; Eze. v. 11; vii. 8,9,20-23. And our Lord very distinctly intimated, by referring on another occasion to some of these passages, that as the same wickedness substantially was lifting itself up anew, the same retributions of evil might certainly be expected to chastise them, Mat. xxi. 13. 2. When reference is made to the prophecy in Daniel it is coupled with a word, "Whoso readeth let him understand," which seems evidently to point to a profound spiritual meaning in the prophecy, such as thoughtful and serious minds alone could apprehend. But this could only be the case if abominations in the moral sense were meant; for the defiling and desolating effect of heathen armies planting themselves in the holy place was what a child might perceive. Such dreadful and unseemly intruders were but the outward signs of the real abominations, which cried for vengeance in the ear of heaven. The compassing of Jerusalem with armies, therefore, mentioned in Lu. xxi. 20, ready to bring the desolation, is not to be regarded as the same with the abomination of desolation; it indicated a further stage of matters. 3. The abominations which were the cause of the desolations are ever spoken of as springing up from within, among the covenant people themselves, not as invasions from without. They are so represented in Daniel also, ch. xi. 30,32 ; xii. 9,10 ; and that the Jews themselves, the better sort of them at least, so understood the matter, is plain from 1 Mac. i. 54-57, where, with reference to the two passages of Daniel just noticed, the heathen-inclined party in Israel are represented, in the time of Antiochus, as the real persona who "set up the abomination of desolation and built idol altars;" comp. also 2 Mac. iv. 15-17. (See on the whole subject, Hengstenberg on the Genuineness of Daniel, ch. iii. § 3; and Christology, at Da. ix. 27, with the authorities there referred to.)

This account accords with the idea that both Christ and Daniel's prophecy allude to the spiritual condition of the church, which is the true temple.

The covenant that is confirmed in Daniel 9:27 must then be the covenant of promise made with Abraham, that Paul calls the gospel in Gal. 3:8. Daniel refers to this in Dan. 9:4. In the LXX, Dan. 9:27 differs slightly from the KJV. The two versions are compared below. The LXX is Brenton's edition (Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton), by Hendrickson Publishers. Originally published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint-hyperlinked.html#Daniel

Daniel 9:27 [KJV]
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
   Daniel 9:27 [LXX]
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

The phrase used in the LXX, "at the end of time," is interesting; the 70th week extends to the end of the age. I suggest the abomination of desolation is a phrase referring to the condition of the church, and at the time of the end, judgment falls on the desolator. This does not apply to events in 70 AD, but to our age. It fits the prophecy of Zechariah, about the day of darkness and gloominess, that becomes light as evening approaches, [Zech. 14:6-7] and also the parable of the tares in Mat. 13. When the tares are removed, Jesus said, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." [Mat. 13:43]

Doug

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 07:59:32 AM »
:cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is progressive within the transition of the ages. There is a lot of progressive points there. It is not however progressive beyond the words of Christ. As to redefine the meanings that Christ gave to world and all nations.

The words of Christ clearly explain the parameters of "the world" and "all nations" as pertains to "the end". Progressive revelation beyond this is to redefine the parameters of Christ's original words as given.

A progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ seeks to redefine the original meanings of Christ as giving from the original perspectives that Christ gave them. 

Said parameters were limited to the sphere of the influence of Israel in it's covenantal standings. The gospel was not preached to the nations or the world beyond that sphere of influence.
Iceland and England and many other areas well known to both Jesus and Paul were never in question.

Redefining those parameters is adding or subtracting to the words of Christ and to the fulfillment that Paul by inspiration had registered or declared as having taken place in which the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

What is the premise for doing this?
Who are we to redefine "world", "under heaven", and "all nations" because of our personal agenda??
What is the pemise for doing so?
Blessings Barry


:cloud9: Barry, I for one, am personally tired of your thinly veiled assessment of others such as myself, who vehemently disagree with your one horse doctrine (that you ride to the exclusion of other scriptures that CLEARLY show the inherent weaknesses and sheer lack of such a limiting position as is full preterism), as having a "personal agenda".

I have NO AGENDA save His, and as I have tried to point out to you many times, Hebrews 10 says the tabernacle of Moses is the pattern of heavenly things, which could be termed if I could wax poetic for a second, spiritual realities for the finder, which are set like jewels in a framework of His perfect will and plan that is exposed in the progression of the fabric of time, according to the allotment given for that season. Jewels are seldom found from a surface inspection, but must be dug for.

For one, your doctrine does not go past the dawning of the 5th day of 1000 year days, in a 7 day (and beyond) pattern that was given precisely because He knew man would stumble over the scriptures at best, and alter the meanings to suit themselves, especially for removing any trace of personal requirement (the cross), and maturation into a mature son that could be trusted with the things of the Kingdom.

The tabernacle pattern, however, remained inviolate, because God took them in their own craftiness, hiding His plan in the very thing He knew they would never guess, just like He hid His plan and Himself in the veil of the pattern Son until He was ready to reveal Him. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 08:40:50 AM »
:cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is progressive within the transition of the ages. There is a lot of progressive points there. It is not however progressive beyond the words of Christ. As to redefine the meanings that Christ gave to world and all nations.

The words of Christ clearly explain the parameters of "the world" and "all nations" as pertains to "the end". Progressive revelation beyond this is to redefine the parameters of Christ's original words as given.

A progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ seeks to redefine the original meanings of Christ as giving from the original perspectives that Christ gave them.  

Said parameters were limited to the sphere of the influence of Israel in it's covenantal standings. The gospel was not preached to the nations or the world beyond that sphere of influence.
Iceland and England and many other areas well known to both Jesus and Paul were never in question.

Redefining those parameters is adding or subtracting to the words of Christ and to the fulfillment that Paul by inspiration had registered or declared as having taken place in which the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

What is the premise for doing this?
Who are we to redefine "world", "under heaven", and "all nations" because of our personal agenda??
What is the pemise for doing so?
Blessings Barry


:cloud9: Barry, I for one, am personally tired of your thinly veiled assessment of others such as myself, who vehemently disagree with your one horse doctrine (that you ride to the exclusion of other scriptures that CLEARLY show the inherent weaknesses and sheer lack of such a limiting position as is full preterism), as having a "personal agenda".


Cardinal... I think you are being quite unfair here. Barry has been nothing but courteous in every post I've read. Asking for clarification, ignoring insulting posts directed towards him and choosing to respond in a loving way. If you don't agree with what he is saying, that's fine. That's your choice. But to project something onto him that is clearly NOT there is not fair. IF anything, over and over again, those who he has responded to have alluded that he is "not of the brethren", etc.  I think Barry has a lot of loving patience and it shows in his posts.

As his signature says..."we are all in this together". I think he pretty much has displayed that.

Peace,
sparrow

p.s. and no, he's not an old friend. This is not personal. I've only just met the fella. But I think it's pretty clear what type of heart he has, based on his interactions. I am not condemning you sister, I just really think you are misreading Barry. Perhaps re-read his posts through a different set of eyes and maybe you'll see what I mean.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 09:15:03 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 09:41:38 AM »
"A river continually fed by a living fountain of water, ends when it comes in contact with the ocean of humanity and their doctrines."

I believe without any imputation of uncharitableness that every person will be awakened under the countenance of the Spirit, and will fall upon their knees (taking a deep breath) in due season; each in their own era.

peacemaker

Doug

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2009, 05:45:42 PM »
The quotation provided earlier from The Imperial Bible-dictionary about the meaning of the phrase "abomination of desolation," was probably written by Patrick Fairbairn. It contained the following:

And so again in two other passages, which are generally understood to point to the Maccabean times- "And they shall place (or set up) the abomination, the desolator," ch. xi. 31, and "till the abomination that desolates," ch. xii. 11. The chief difference among commentators, as to the meaning of the expression, has respect to the point, whether the abomination, which somehow should carry along with it the curse of desolation, ought to be understood of the idolatrous and corrupt practices which should inevitably draw down desolating inflictions of vengeance, or of the heathen powers and weapons of war that should be the immediate instruments of executing them. There appear to be conclusive reasons for understanding the expression of the former.
   
Fairbairn made three excellent points in support of his argument. Besides the ones he gave, included in the previous post, there is another consideration; was Luke, who refers to armies surrounding Jerusalem as the sign to the saints to "flee to the mountains," whereas Matthew and Mark mention the abomination of desolation, alluding to the armies mentioned in Zechariah 14:1?

Here are the parallel accounts contained in the synoptic gospels.

Matthew 24:15-16
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20-21
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The prophecies of Zechariah complement those of Daniel. Both authors were prophets who would be among those Peter referred to when he wrote, "not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven." [1 Peter 1:12]

Peter's insight suggests their prophecies describe the condition of the church, under the figure of the earthly Jerusalem, or the temple, which are both types or symbols of the church in the NT.
[Heb. 12:22-23]

And so, whereas Daniel represents the church by a temple made desolate, Zechariah depicts the same end-time condition of the church by the figure of Jerusalem besieged by all nations. Half the city goes into captivity, the spoil is divided among enemies, the houses rifled, the women ravished, etc.

To recognize the condition represented by setting up of the abomination of desolation would mean one has come to understand what Daniel's prophecies meant, and similarly, to notice armies surrounding Jerusalem means to understand and correctly apply Zechariah's prophecies; the two expressions allude to separate OT prophecies that depict the state of the church. This occurs in the period Zechariah calls the day of the Lord.

Jesus said, when these conditions occur, flee to the mountains. I suggest he means the mountains that represent the promises of God, not literal ones. The kingdom of God, for example, is represented by a great mountain in Daniel 2:35. God's righteousness is compared to great mountains. The Sermon on the Mount is represented by a mountain. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus clearly was not telling his disciples how to escape physical threats to our safety, as if it were in order to preserve their own lives, because he also said:

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Dispensationalism deceives many who seek that very thing, a way of self-preservation, and a way of escape, by means of a "rapture" up to heaven!

Zechariah says flee to the "valley of the mountains," the one formed between the two halves of the Mount of Olives when it cleaves in the midst, and half moves towards the north, and half toward the south. These represent flawed interpretations, that displace the Olivet Discourse of Jesus from its proper application. This prophecy is not about Jews, but the saints!

When Jesus said, "for then shall be great tribulation," he clearly refers to the time Daniel described in Daniel 12:1, when the resurrection occurs. Perhaps it also refers to the great tribulation that is mentioned in Revelation 7:14.

Doug

Doug

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2010, 11:38:34 PM »
Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks was given for the benefit of the church, as it identifies Jesus as the Messiah, whose ministry was to begin at the end of the 69th week. The church is the "holy city," and the bride of the Lamb. [Revelation 21:2]

Edward J. Young gave the following synopsis of Daniel chapter 9.

Chapter 9. Daniel has studied Jeremiah's prophecy concerning the seventy years of exile. He prays to God, making confession of the sins of his people. Chapter 9:4-20 is regarded by Eissfeldt and others as a late addition. But his prayer is earlier than Nehemiah 9, which is more expanded.

Gabriel answers Daniel's prayer with the famous prophecy of the 'Seventy Weeks.' A period of sevens - the exact length of the seven is not stated - in fact, seventy of them, has been decreed for the purpose of accomplishing the Messianic work. This Messianic work is described in both negative and positive terms; negative - restraining the transgression, completing sin, and covering iniquity; positive - bringing everlasting righteousness, sealing vision and prophet, and anointing a holy of holies. Daniel, therefore, is to know and understand that from the going forth of a word to restore and build Jerusalem to an anointed one who is also a prince (i,e., a royal priest) is seven sevens  and sixty and two sevens. We are not told when this word went forth from the Lord but the effects of its being issued first appear in the return from bondage during the first year of Cyrus. This period is divided into two. The first period of seven sevens is evidently intended to include the time from the first year of Cyrus to the completion of the work of Ezra and Nehemiah, and the second that from the completion of the work of Ezra and Nehemiah to the first advent of Christ who alone can be described as an Anointed One, a Prince. During this entire period the city will be completely rebuilt, although this will be accomplished during times of distress and affliction.

After the expiration of these two periods, two events are to occur. Whether or not these two events fall within the seventieth seven is not immediately stated. One of them is the death of the Messiah and the other follows as a consequence, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the Temple by the Roman armies of Titus.

For the period of the seventieth seven the Messiah causes a covenant to prevail for many, and in the half of this seven by His death He causes the Jewish sacrifices and oblation to cease. His death is thus seen to belong within the seventieth seven. Consequent upon this causing of the sacrifices and oblation to cease is the appearance of a desolator over the pinnacle of the Temple, which has now become an abomination. Upon the ruins a determined full end pours out. This event, the destruction of the city, does not, therefore, take place within the seventy sevens, but follows as a consequence upon the cutting off of the Messiah in the seventieth seven.


[An Introduction to the Old Testament, by Edward J. Young. Published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, 1984 (revised), p. 374-375.]
http://books.google.ca/books?id=R5XMn9YZ50wC

Dr. Young commented as follows on the 70 weeks:

The traditional Messianic interpretation entails less difficulty than do the others and at the same time does justice to the language of the text.  Upon this view the seventy sevens serve as a symbolical number for the period that has been decreed for the accomplishment of the Messianic salvation (v. 24).  In v. 25 we are taught that two segments of time elapse from the issuing of a word from God to rebuild Jerusalem until the appearance of Christ.  After these two segments have elapsed, the Messiah will be cut off by death and Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus.  The Messiah, however, will cause the Jewish sacrifice to cease by means of His death, and He will do this in the midst of the seventieth seven.  As a consequence, the Temple will be destroyed, and the destruction will continue until the end appears which has been appointed by God. The precise point of termination of the period of seventy sevens is not revealed.  The emphasis, rather, is not so much upon the beginning and termination of this period as it is upon the great results which the period has been set apart to accomplish.

[An Introduction to the Old Testament, by Edward J. Young. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 8th printing 1977.]

Let's look especially at what we are told in verse 27. Here we read that there will be something causing desolation, overspreading the sanctuary, until the end of the age. Tregelles translates, "upon the wing of abominations shall be that which causeth desolation." The NASB says "and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate."

These statements imply a sanctuary has to exist, for it to be made desolate. Since 70 AD, the literal temple has ceased to exist. Ernest L. Martin's research showed that the Muslim buildings are probably not on the original temple site, and they clearly are not temples. The temple that has existed, in all centuries since the apostles, is the church, and indeed, the church has become desolate. The "wing" in verse 27 may represent flawed interpretations of prophecy, that contribute to the desolation and confusion in the church.

The saints today are scattered among about 38,000 denominations and sects. And so, the church fulfills the prophecy of Daniel 9:27. I suggest the flood of verse 26 refers, not to a military siege, but the flood of false doctrines that threaten to carry away the church, as John described in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:15-16
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.


What Daniel's prophecy reveals, is that the cause of the desolation is to be removed. Something is to be "poured upon" it. This is good news, as it means truth will prevail.

Daniel said that desolations and warfare have the same duration. Both the "flood" and the "war" are mentioned in Daniel 9:26: "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." There is also a "war in heaven" mentioned in Revelation 12:7, which represents a spiritual struggle, which no doubt includes the conflicts in the church over the interpretation of the prophecies of scripture. Did the desolations of Jerusalem and the temple end, when the Roman war of 70 AD ended? Was the literal city, and its temple, restored to the Jews? If not, the literal city has not fulfilled the prophecy, and there is still no temple there. But, the church does! The saints have been involved in continual spiritual warfare since apostolic times. So, the "city" and "sanctuary" of Daniel 9:26 must refer to the church!

Doug
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 04:00:04 AM by Doug »

Doug

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Re: The 70 weeks and 70 AD
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2010, 03:32:16 AM »
These statements imply a sanctuary has to exist, for it to be made desolate. Since 70 AD, the literal temple has ceased to exist.
Perhaps nice to mention:
Rounded to whole years because I have no exact dates for first and last Roman campaign.

28 AD Jesus starts ministry (Sabbath year) ===>66 AD First Roman campaign
31 AD Jesus (=Temple) dies

Hmm.. The problem is, according to hebcal.com, the passover in that year was March 24, which was a Monday, so that year cannot be the year of the crucifixion. Oops!

You could also check out Fourmilab.


35  AD Gospel to Gentiles ends


It does?

(70th week) (Sabbath year ===>73 AD Last Roman campaign

Both Gospel and war lasted 7 years.


Nonsense! The gospel still goes to everyone, both Jews and Gentiles.

Doug