Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Book of Revelation

Revelations and "The Final State"

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moss92g:
I've always struggled with Revelations, and how it describes "The End".  I asked a brother recently about the following verses

REV 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
REV 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

On the one hand, this should be a clear indication that unbelievers will not spend an unlimited time in Hell since they are now described as being outside the gates of the city.

Of course some see the lake of fire right outside the gates with people in eternal torment, but I have a hard time invisioning that myself, and it makes no sense to even mention them if that's the case.

On the other hand, I had a hard time reconcilling this God reconcilling everyone to himself, if in the end.... unbelievers remain outstide the gates of the Holy city forever.

This is where my eye were opened, in a serious fashion!!!

The "Orthodox" belief is that Revelations describes the end of the fate of God's creation, but as my friend pointed out that cannot be.

E.F. Stroeter, in his book "The Gospel of the God's Reconcilliation of All in Christ" states that 1st Corinthians 15 is the universal description of the final state, and that Revelations is part of the process to accomplish God's plan.

This can be seen by comparing Rev 22:5, where Christ is said to

REV 22:5 And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever.

with 1st Corinthians 15:24~25, wher Christ must rule until

1CO 15:24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1CO 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

So, if Christ is reigning in Revelations then that cannot be then end, because the end comes when there is no longer any need to rule.  I.e. all things are then subject to him, and then he and all of his creation are subjected to the Father:

1CO 15:28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

What a revelation!  Pun inteneded.. :bigGrin:  1st Corinthians 15 is the big revelation, not revelations!!!!

The sad thing is that Bible publishers actually put outlines in God's word that incorrectly describe Rev 20, etc... as "The Final State".

In Christ,

Terry

WhiteWings:
IMO 1Co 15:24-25 itself doesn't say that ET isn't true. Same for "Every knee shall bow"
Putting people in a lake of fire breaks their power. And I'm sure they will kneel too to get out.
But that in itself doesn't mean they will get out.

martincisneros:

--- Quote from: WhiteWings on August 07, 2008, 08:31:46 AM ---IMO 1Co 15:24-25 itself doesn't say that ET isn't true. Same for "Every knee shall bow"
Putting people in a lake of fire breaks their power. And I'm sure they will kneel too to get out.
But that in itself doesn't mean they will get out.
--- End quote ---

Very true, but 1Corinthians 15:22,26 definitely do indicate the end of what's called the Second Death 'cause if any remain dead, then how could all have been made alive in Christ?  And if any remain in the second death, then how can death be the last enemy that was abolished if there's many millions of enemies roasting in their death for all of eternity?  The removal of the Second death [which is what the lake of fire is called] is the only thing that can be said to be the end of death as the last enemy 'cause it was the last death that anybody died by that time period. Every other enemy by that time is either restored or annihilated.  Those are the only two choices by that time period, if death isn't going to remain eternal.  All of the others are alive forevermore with the same life that Jesus Christ has, which in Hebrews 7 is akataluton (i.e. indestructible) life rather than aionios life.  If it's literal fire that hits the earth, as some insist for 2Peter 3, then nobody with aionios life is on the New Earth.  And if any are annihilated, then how would 1Corinthians 15:22 be fulfilled which says that all who were in Adam when he died, died; all who were in Christ when He died, were made alive?  1Corinthians 15:22 is about how the two representative men of all of humanity died.  Romans 5 is the extended commentary with how because the one and the many died, then the One that obeyed and died together with the same many were made alive.  The one and the many represent the all in Romans 5 so that there's no contradiction between the one and many statements and the one for the all statements.  John 6 says He was giving life to all that He was given to and in the behalf of.

WhiteWings:
"the same many were made alive.the same many were made alive."
Understood. But does that mean they can't be killed a little later.

And when an enemy is defeated does that mean it doesn't exist anymore.
That enemy now just does what you wish.
I mean if it's 100% under control it's defeated. So lets say none of the good people die anymore.

martincisneros:

--- Quote from: WhiteWings on August 07, 2008, 09:28:42 AM ---"the same many were made alive.the same many were made alive."
Understood. But does that mean they can't be killed a little later.

And when an enemy is defeated does that mean it doesn't exist anymore.
That enemy now just does what you wish.
I mean if it's 100% under control it's defeated. So lets say none of the good people die anymore.


--- End quote ---

Anyone, except for the immortal Jesus Christ, can be killed until there's no such thing as death.

And as far as the other question.  It depends on your definition of defeating an enemy and if that differs from God's definition of defeating an enemy with love.  Everything's already 100% controllable from the perspective of His omnipotent power; everything's always been under His feet from that perspective, particularly since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but He's after transforming everyone until they're submitted from a willing heart.  And Philippians 3:21 says that He has the power to conform all things to Himself, just as He'll conform all of our bodies to Himself.  That's an important point about Philippians 3:21, that it's talking about both His power to conform all things to Himself, and that it's saying that the exercise of that power is as certain as it is that there will be a bodily resurrection of everyone from the dead.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight
(Colossians 1:21-22 NKJV)

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses...
(Ephesians 2:1-5 NKJV)

The Scriptures indicate in the above two Scriptures that prior to our salvation, we also were enemies in our minds, so enmity is in the mind, and it's produced in the mind by wicked works.  But God, who is rich in mercy....  The Bible is also indicating in the above Scripture that there's a spirit agitating their disobedience.  2Corinthians 4 verifies this:

in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them. For we are not heralding ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, yet ourselves your slaves because of Jesus,
(2Corinthians 4:4-5 Concordant Literal New Testament)

Jesus said that what you bind on earth is bound in heaven and what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.  So, you can pray in a very firm, affirming way commanding that that spirit that's blinding people from seeing the Gospel would be bound and hindered from blinding them so that they'd be able to see it as they're exposed to the Gospel.  Jesus said that you don't enter into a strong man's house to spoil his goods without first binding him and then you will enter in and spoil his goods.  Jesus also said that the gates of Hades won't prevail.  Hades is the realm where all of this unseen stuff is at, and where people are bound to their disobedience.  Hades means the imperceptible or the unseen and isn't limited to some underworld or underwater whatever.  If the gates of Hades won't prevail, then that means that we're supposed to be prevailing daily with these types of forceful prayers for the people that we're taking the Word, or know that are going to have the Word taken to them today.  And 2Corinthians 4 closes with this:

For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory, at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian.
(2Corinthians 4:17-18 Concordant Literal New Testament)

What is being observed is temporary, and what is not being observed -- which is the blindness we were talking about in the earlier part of the chapter -- is eonian, or of limited duration rather than the King James's blunder of "eternal" 'cause as we know the punishments won't be "eternal" 'cause this chapter assures us that the blindness won't be "eternal."

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