Author Topic: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?  (Read 5507 times)

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martincisneros

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Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« on: August 28, 2008, 03:00:44 AM »
I might be in a gray area on posting this on the book of Revelation board because this relates, very briefly, to Revelation 7 where 12 of the 13 tribes of Israel are listed.

To show you how bad our traditions have been, as far as not giving the full story, I just found out that there are 13 tribes of Israel.  12 land grants and Levi wasn't given land in the promised land.  Tribe of Joseph never really comes up in Scripture.  (maybe once or twice I've read of something that can be taken as a reference to it in Scripture.  a reference or two in Deuteronomy 33, and a reference in Revelation 7)

In place of a reference to a tribe of Joseph, what does get mentioned is Ephraim and Manasseh (Joseph's two sons) as distinct tribes of Israel.  In Revelation 7 when it mentions twelve tribes, Dan is missing.  Anyway, if you type "13 tribes of Israel" into www.google.com you basically get speculations about the Zodiac on why there are usually only 12 tribes mentioned in many, many parts of Scripture.  I guess with each reference to that in Scripture, we need to pay closer attention to who is being excluded from the count and try to discern why from either the meaning of the names of the tribes or from something else in context, or if it's as simple as a particular tribe not being relevant to the particular story being told 'cause they weren't there or whatever.

When Moses blessed the tribes (Deut 33:6-24) Simeon was not mentioned by name, perhaps because the tribe was greatly reduced in size and its land portion was to be enclosed in the territory of Judah. However, in Ezekiel's vision of the "holy contribution" and the twelve tribes, the tribes listed are the same as those who received a land inheritance as given in the book of Joshua (Ezek 48:1-8, 23-28). The tribe of Levi was located within the "holy contribution" in Ezekiel's vision (Ezek. 48:9-14, 22.)

When the tribe of Joseph is mentioned, Ephraim is usually mentioned immediately following. This shows that the name Ephraim was given preference. Thus, the phrase "The House of Ephraim" is frequently used to refer to the "House of Israel." Notice in this series of verses Joseph and Ephraim are mentioned together whereas Manasseh is listed separately:

Num 1:32-33 "Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war. Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred:

Num 1:34 "Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war.

Another point is that Ephraim is linked with his father Joseph, whereas Manasseh is linked with his grandfather Jacob:

Num 1:10 "Of the children of Joseph: of Ephraim (#H669); Elishama the son of Ammihud: of Manasseh (#H4519); Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur."

The English word "Ephraim" comes from the Hebrew word "'Ephrayim;" Strong's (#H669) states that it means "double fruit; Ephraim, a son of Joseph; also the tribe descended from him, and its territory."

Whereas the English word Manasseh comes from the Hebrew word "Menashsheh;" Strong's (#H4519) states that it means "causing to forget; Menashsheh, a grandson of Jacob, also the tribe descending from him, and its territory.

Thus it is abundantly clear that Joseph was replaced by his two sons thus there are thirteen tribes and not twelve. The names of the thirteen tribes are stated in Numbers as Moses was taking a census of all that were able to go to war:
Num 1:21-45 "Reuben, Simeon, Gad, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, and Naphtali. (Notice Levi was missing from the previous list, per Num 1:47,50, yet 12 tribes were mentioned.)

You might ask, what's this got to do with the price of tea or of lead tained Christmas toys in China?  It's just one more of those things, as in the mistaken tradition about 3 wise men coming to see Jesus when He was born that adds to the stronghold of lies we're subliminally fed every year in some way.  And it very likely robs us of something in our Bible studies.  Because we're usually less than precise, then that lends itself to criticisms of the Bible being less than precise when we weren't on the same page with it all along as we were reading it because of a tradition and/or a half truth derived from it that we took as the whole truth.  It's just one more thing to rob us of the ability to ask enough questions of a text as we're reading it.  Why is so and so left out of this description?  How much gold, frankincense, and myrrh were brought to Jesus since those types of "wise men" seldom traveled in caravans of less than 50?  Was it enough to finance His whole ministry to where having a treasurer (i.e. Judas) was necessary?  Who hires an accountant to keep up with their two dollars and fifty cents, one or two pounds, or their one or two euros??

So, among the other things to keep clear in our minds while studying the Scriptures: there were 13 tribes of Israel mentioned in the Scriptures.  Yet there's repeated references to 12, and each reference to only 12 probably has it's own additional story to tell on who's being excluded from that count and why.  Why is the tribe of Dan not mentioned in Revelation chapter 7?  Since both the tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Manasseh are mentioned, we can probably conclude that the tribe of Joseph includes Ephraim in Revelation 7.  The tribe of Levi is even mentioned in Revelation 7, but nothing about the tribe of Dan.  Why?

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 03:11:30 AM »
There are 14 failies of Israel.
There are 14 original apostles.
There are 14 fruits of the Tree of Life.

14 is the perfect number. Now if Taffy can find what I wrote on this, maybe he can post it.

Quote
And it very likely robs us of something in our Bible studies.

Martin, there is a lot of stuff I know, that really doesn't matter until it is brought up... One of my few peeves is idle chit chat about nothing, I always said there was more to discover  :D
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 03:32:54 AM by SOtW »

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 03:24:34 AM »
Never mind, I found it....

There is also 13 tribes of Israel:

Num 1:21-48 "Reuben (1), Simeon (2), Gad (3), Judah (4), Issachar (5), Zebulun (6), Ephraim (7), Manasseh (8), Benjamin (9), Dan (10), Asher (11), and Naphtali (12). This total does not include the Levites (13), for ETERNAL had said to Moses, ' Exempt the entire tribe of Levi from the draft, and do not include their number in the census. ...For the Levites are assigned for the work connected with the Tabernacle and its transportation.'"

There is also 14 families of Israel:

"Reuben (1), Simeon (2), Gad (3), Judah (4), Issachar (5), Zebulun (6), Joseph (7),  Ephraim (8), Manasseh (9), Benjamin (10), Dan (11), Asher (12), Naphtali (13) and Levi (14)

There is also 13 disciples of Christ:

Simon (who is called Peter) (1),  Andrew (2),  James son of Zebedee (3), John (4), Philip (5), Bartholomew (6), Thomas (7), Matthew (8),  James son of Alphaeus (9), Thaddaeus (10), Simon the Zealot (11), Judas Iscariot (12), and Matthias (13).

There is also 14 apostles of Christ:

Simon (who is called Peter) (1),  Andrew (2),  James son of Zebedee (3), John (4), Philip (5), Bartholomew (6), Thomas (7), Matthew (8),  James son of Alphaeus (9), Thaddaeus (10), Simon the Zealot (11), Judas Iscariot (12), Matthias (13) and Paul (14).

There is also 13 fruits of the tree of life:

Love (1), joy (2), peace (3), patience (4), kindness (5), goodness (6), generosity (7), gentleness (8), faithfulness (9), modesty (10), self-control (11), chastity (12) and faith(13).

There is also 14 crops of the tree of life:

Love (1), joy (2), peace (3), patience (4), kindness (5), goodness (6), generosity (7), gentleness (8), faithfulness (9), modesty (10), self-control (11), chastity (12) faith(13) and the leaves of healing (14).

Now check this out.

Numbers 29:13
Present an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, a burnt offering of thirteen young bulls...[]...and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect.

Ezekiel 43:16-17 The altar hearth is square, twelve cubits long and twelve cubits wide. The upper ledge also is square, fourteen cubits long and fourteen cubits wide, with a rim of half a cubit and a gutter of a cubit all around. The steps of the altar face east." (in otherwords, the alter hearth is 12 cubits wide, 13 cubits when including the gutter, and the upper ledge of the alter hearth is 14 cubits wide all together.)

Ezekiel 40:48 ...The width of the entrance was fourteen cubit...

Ezekiel 45:21
"'In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover."

Matthew 1:17
Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

etc.

Now check this government out:

Revelation 3:21The victor: I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I also won the victory and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Matthew 9:28  Jesus said to them, "I assure you: In the Messianic Age, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

There is 12 thrones, and 13 rulers in submission to the Father. Finally 14 in Divine Authority when the God is all in all.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 03:31:16 AM by SOtW »

Offline Molly

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 03:29:12 AM »
Ephraim and Menasseh are a double portion of the tribe of Joseph.

Dan is removed from the list in Revelation.

martincisneros

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 03:37:40 AM »
There are 14 tribes of Israel...you weren't looking hard enough.
I typed in "14 tribes of Israel" into google and nothing came up but a bunch of pages on the 12 tribes of Israel came up, but when I typed in "13 tribes of Israel" then pages on the 13 tribes came up.  However, assuming that you're right for a minute, that just thickens the plot on why all of the references to 12 in the Scriptures and why 2 seem randomly omitted from the count when they're brought up.  Not relevant to the particular stories where they're brought up, as in they weren't there or whatever other reason?  Is it an issue of the meaning of names on a subliminal message being conveyed, or at least an underlying message to the discerning?  Why are 12 repeatedly brought up instead of 13 or 14???

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 03:42:42 AM »
12 is acceptable.
13 is good.
14 is perfect.

Everything of God starts in 12 and ends in 14.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 03:43:10 AM »
I'm not sure if we can know for sure the number of disciples at the time that this was talking about.

Lk 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;



Lk 6:17 And, descending with them, He stood on an even place. And a vast throng of His disciples and a vast multitude of people from entire Judea and Jerusalem and maritime Tyre and Sidon, who came to hear Him and to be healed of their diseases


« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 03:45:28 AM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 03:45:56 AM »
There are 14 tribes of Israel...you weren't looking hard enough.
I typed in "14 tribes of Israel" into google and nothing came up but a bunch of pages on the 12 tribes of Israel came up, but when I typed in "13 tribes of Israel" then pages on the 13 tribes came up.  However, assuming that you're right for a minute, that just thickens the plot on why all of the references to 12 in the Scriptures and why 2 seem randomly omitted from the count when they're brought up.  Not relevant to the particular stories where they're brought up, as in they weren't there or whatever other reason?  Is it an issue of the meaning of names on a subliminal message being conveyed, or at least an underlying message to the discerning?  Why are 12 repeatedly brought up instead of 13 or 14???

You won't find it, because nobody noticed it but me it seems. :P

martincisneros

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 03:47:22 AM »
As far as Apostles, there's actually 24 mentioned in the New Testament, including Barnabas.

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 03:55:02 AM »
As far as Apostles, there's actually 24 mentioned in the New Testament, including Barnabas.

Yes, there is 24 apostle's mentioned but that is not the point. There are 72 disciples we know for sure in Scripture. There are billions of people who reign with Christ on the throne during the 1000 years.

When talking about the disciples and the apostles, 14 were directly responsible for Jesus's ministry. Paul being #14, and the one to reveal the mystery of the gentiles.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 04:14:58 AM by SOtW »

martincisneros

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 04:14:41 AM »
You won't find it, because nobody noticed it but me it seems. :P
Lest you [needlessly] get jumped over this comment by the "Humility Police," I'll speak up right here that I know what you mean.  More than just little insights here and there, or splitting hairs over details.  There are entire subjects that I could introduce to the Body of Christ from the Scriptures that I've not found anything similar to in any of the out of print shops, any of the Christian bookstores, or on anybody's webpages.  Scripture talks about being able to prophecy in proportion to one's faith.  And I'm wondering if a lot of subjects are coming on the radar with a lot of believers in relation to the approaching millenium where we'll take a giant quantum leap forward with the discipleship of the nations.  I don't want to get into the previous pettiness that's gone on before about the duration of the millenium, how literal to take it, or whatever.  The command of Jesus will come to pass, though, of discipling all nations.  A lot of false prophets are trying to prophesy the end of mega-churches, but I think that those are just going to get bigger, as well as home fellowships, and every other form of fellowship, from going to listen to the conference speaker to regular chit-chat via instant messages.  People are kidding themselves if they [genuinely] think that one particular form of fellowship or discipleship over all others will fulfill all of the needs of the hour as the hearts of all nations return to the Lord.

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 04:25:04 AM »
Thanks Martin.

The reason I say nobody noticed it but me was a joke. You can find more who have noticed it, but because most people don't notice it, they insist it doesn't exist and therefore like myself, the only time I can bring it up is when someone asks the question.

I will correct myself there is 13 tribes of Israel but 14 families of Israel.
12 disciples chosen by Christ and 14 apostles chosen by Christ (yes Matthias drew the short straw and people will get in arms about using 'luck' but it was a practice that God used to point out who He wanted, example, Jonah) and if you really want to get technical and remove Matthias, then it still would be 14 because Jesus is the primary authority who distributed this authority across 13 apostles whom He chosen in person and so you have Jesus as the ultimate apostle.

The number 14 is a number that continues to fly under the radar but it is quite obvious and not some figment of numerologist fallacy.

You can't get over that 14 lambs without defect are sacrificed?
Or that the entrance to the Temple is 14 Cubits wide?
Or that the alter is 14 cubits wide?
That there was 14 Generations from Abraham to David, 14 Generations from Davide to Exile, and 14 Generations fro Exile to Jesus.
Absolute forgiveness, 70 x 7 is divisible by 14. (okay that is a numerology fallacy, I had to actually go get my calculator and go through the numbers until I found one that was divisible by 14 but the first 4 examples are actually not numerology fallacy)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 05:05:58 AM by SOtW »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 08:20:53 AM »
If my memory is still functional, Herbert Lockyear's series of books, All the "Whatevers" of the Bible in his book All the Apostles of the Bible says there are 33 or 34 named and 1 unamed apostles.  He lists them; but, most of my books are still packed, so that is as far as I can go for now.

The major complaints against Dan had to do with 1.) idolatry (Judges 18:30-31) and 2.) setting up a golden calf there as an alternative place of worship rather than going up to Jerusalem. (1 Kings 12:29-30)  Dan was the first to go into exile.

His name of course means "judgement."  "Manasseh," (You cause me to) "Forget" supercedes "Judgement."

Ephraim, though God calls him "My firstborn," is omitted in Revelation 7 for perhaps the same reason as point 2 above. (1 Kings 12:29)  Joseph, "Increaser," takes it's place.

Judah, "Praise," (in Rev 7) is 1st...probably because that is the tribe into which Jesus was born.

There's more...



---JMR
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 08:46:38 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

arcticmonster2003

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 08:45:04 AM »
Ephraim and Menasseh are a double portion of the tribe of Joseph.

Dan is removed from the list in Revelation.

To the original question I think Molly has it pretty close.

Ultimately Manasseh seems to take Dan's spot. Perhaps because Ephraim and Dan made God really mad. God knows.

Hosea 4:17  Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Genesis 49:17  Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Judges 18:30  And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land.



martincisneros

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2008, 11:12:34 AM »
Thankfully, the whole book of Hosea deals completely with the cutting off and the restoration of Ephraim.  The book of Hosea deals with other things, but the cutting off and the restoration of Ephraim is one of it's two or three main subjects.  Hosea does as a book what Ezekiel 16 does as a chapter regarding the restoration of Jerusalem, Sodom, and Gomorrah.  Hosea describes the cutting off and salvation of Ephraim about as strongly as Ezekiel 16 describes the salvation of Sodom and Gomorrah.  And, in Ezekiel 16, God's like, "and if you think this is a biggy, I'll even save Jerusalem which has been WORSE!!"

So, the omission of certain tribes in certain passages of Scripture seems related to their eonian judgments then.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 11:13:13 AM »
Never mind, I found it....

There is also 13 tribes of Israel:

Num 1:21-48 "Reuben (1), Simeon (2), Gad (3), Judah (4), Issachar (5), Zebulun (6), Ephraim (7), Manasseh (8), Benjamin (9), Dan (10), Asher (11), and Naphtali (12). This total does not include the Levites (13), for ETERNAL had said to Moses, ' Exempt the entire tribe of Levi from the draft, and do not include their number in the census. ...For the Levites are assigned for the work connected with the Tabernacle and its transportation.'"

There is also 14 families of Israel:

"Reuben (1), Simeon (2), Gad (3), Judah (4), Issachar (5), Zebulun (6), Joseph (7),  Ephraim (8), Manasseh (9), Benjamin (10), Dan (11), Asher (12), Naphtali (13) and Levi (14)

There is also 13 disciples of Christ:

Simon (who is called Peter) (1),  Andrew (2),  James son of Zebedee (3), John (4), Philip (5), Bartholomew (6), Thomas (7), Matthew (8),  James son of Alphaeus (9), Thaddaeus (10), Simon the Zealot (11), Judas Iscariot (12), and Matthias (13).

There is also 14 apostles of Christ:

Simon (who is called Peter) (1),  Andrew (2),  James son of Zebedee (3), John (4), Philip (5), Bartholomew (6), Thomas (7), Matthew (8),  James son of Alphaeus (9), Thaddaeus (10), Simon the Zealot (11), Judas Iscariot (12), Matthias (13) and Paul (14).

There is also 13 fruits of the tree of life:

Love (1), joy (2), peace (3), patience (4), kindness (5), goodness (6), generosity (7), gentleness (8), faithfulness (9), modesty (10), self-control (11), chastity (12) and faith(13).

There is also 14 crops of the tree of life:

Love (1), joy (2), peace (3), patience (4), kindness (5), goodness (6), generosity (7), gentleness (8), faithfulness (9), modesty (10), self-control (11), chastity (12) faith(13) and the leaves of healing (14).

Now check this out.

Numbers 29:13
Present an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, a burnt offering of thirteen young bulls...[]...and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect.

Ezekiel 43:16-17 The altar hearth is square, twelve cubits long and twelve cubits wide. The upper ledge also is square, fourteen cubits long and fourteen cubits wide, with a rim of half a cubit and a gutter of a cubit all around. The steps of the altar face east." (in otherwords, the alter hearth is 12 cubits wide, 13 cubits when including the gutter, and the upper ledge of the alter hearth is 14 cubits wide all together.)

Ezekiel 40:48 ...The width of the entrance was fourteen cubit...

Ezekiel 45:21
"'In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover."

Matthew 1:17
Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

etc.

Now check this government out:

Revelation 3:21The victor: I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I also won the victory and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Matthew 9:28  Jesus said to them, "I assure you: In the Messianic Age, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

There is 12 thrones, and 13 rulers in submission to the Father. Finally 14 in Divine Authority when the God is all in all.



I would have found it Craig, I have it as one of my keepers...you shared this on OGR a few yrs bacl :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 11:22:15 AM »
12 is acceptable.
13 is good.
14 is perfect.

Everything of God starts in 12 and ends in 14.
who says we never agree Craig

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2008, 11:46:47 AM »
Thanks Martin.

The reason I say nobody noticed it but me was a joke. You can find more who have noticed it, but because most people don't notice it, they insist it doesn't exist and therefore like myself, the only time I can bring it up is when someone asks the question.

I will correct myself there is 13 tribes of Israel but 14 families of Israel.
12 disciples chosen by Christ and 14 apostles chosen by Christ (yes Matthias drew the short straw and people will get in arms about using 'luck' but it was a practice that God used to point out who He wanted, example, Jonah) and if you really want to get technical and remove Matthias, then it still would be 14 because Jesus is the primary authority who distributed this authority across 13 apostles whom He chosen in person and so you have Jesus as the ultimate apostle.

The number 14 is a number that continues to fly under the radar but it is quite obvious and not some figment of numerologist fallacy.

You can't get over that 14 lambs without defect are sacrificed?
Or that the entrance to the Temple is 14 Cubits wide?
Or that the alter is 14 cubits wide?
That there was 14 Generations from Abraham to David, 14 Generations from Davide to Exile, and 14 Generations fro Exile to Jesus.
Absolute forgiveness, 70 x 7 is divisible by 14. (okay that is a numerology fallacy, I had to actually go get my calculator and go through the numbers until I found one that was divisible by 14 but the first 4 examples are actually not numerology fallacy)
Even This isnt by COINCIDENCE

Gal 2:1  Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also.


 Gal 2:2  And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Strange that this should come up on Tent, posted that keeper on at least three other forums these last few weeks Criag , :Sparkletooth:

 as matter of Interest...RDL added this about Matthias...

Taffy and all, you are talking some stuff that I can add to now.  About Matthies.

The one who "replaces" Judas.  Judas is taken out of the way, and ONE who

knows Christ only in His Resurrection, I think, replaces him.  I believe this

replacement is the 12th foundational stone.  All the stones are sometimes

called tribes, sometime called stones, but all taken from ONE stone.  I am

speaking from last part of Rev.  God is orderly, and"we" are built upon this

foundation when we are ready.  The last stone also is ameythyst.  The stone

for Benjamin;  except your brother come with you is written meaning Benj.

the name B. means son of my right hand.  It is amazing that THE Son Jesus

is at the right hand of the Father.  God reveal.  I have no proof about the

Matthies part, just feel that.  The Bible is silent but if Judas was taken

that leaves 11 and if Matthies is put in his place, that makes 12 again.

Blessed me.

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 06:59:20 PM »
You guys lose me when you add a 13th and then a 14th.  There are twelve gates in the New Jerusalem . . no mention of 13 or 14 and the New Jerusalem is the completion of all things.  There are 12 foundations, there are "24" elders . . .divisible by 12.  So I'm not fully on board with all of the additional pieces yet. 

Mathias was added to "complete" the order established by Christ . . .but it was only until the spirit was poured out on all flesh.  Otherwise, every time an Apostle of the original 12 was martyred, they would have immediately replaced them to keep the consistancy.  But they didn't.

Lastly . . . I believe Judah is mentioned first because like everything else in the book of Revelation, it lines up with the tabernacle.  The tribe of Judah was posted out at the east gate.  In order for us to enter into the kingdom, we must go through praise.

Swing away.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 07:12:29 PM »
You guys lose me when you add a 13th and then a 14th.  There are twelve gates in the New Jerusalem . . no mention of 13 or 14 and the New Jerusalem is the completion of all things.  There are 12 foundations, there are "24" elders . . .divisible by 12.  So I'm not fully on board with all of the additional pieces yet. 

Mathias was added to "complete" the order established by Christ . . .but it was only until the spirit was poured out on all flesh.  Otherwise, every time an Apostle of the original 12 was martyred, they would have immediately replaced them to keep the consistancy.  But they didn't.

Lastly . . . I believe Judah is mentioned first because like everything else in the book of Revelation, it lines up with the tabernacle.  The tribe of Judah was posted out at the east gate.  In order for us to enter into the kingdom, we must go through praise.

Swing away.

Hey Nat..its no biggy, I just found it interesting how 14 comes into the equation.... :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline studier

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM »
You guys lose me when you add a 13th and then a 14th.  There are twelve gates in the New Jerusalem . . no mention of 13 or 14 and the New Jerusalem is the completion of all things.  There are 12 foundations, there are "24" elders . . .divisible by 12.  So I'm not fully on board with all of the additional pieces yet.

I shown how. It is 13 tribes of Israel, because Levi was not counted in the census it came to twelve. The familes of Israel include Joseph.

There is more than 12 thrones, there is the 12 thrones + Jesus at the right hand side of the Father + the Father = 14 Thrones. 12 Seen, 2 unseen.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2008, 08:52:29 PM »
Where's that at . . .I think I'm missing something.?

martincisneros

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2008, 09:07:35 PM »
Where's that at . . .I think I'm missing something.?
Basically, what I think we've covered so far is that there's more than 12 tribes of Israel, but that Dan and Ephraim don't get mentioned in certain contexts sometimes because of eonian judgment upon them.  Is that the part where you've gotten lost?  If it's about the 14s, you'll probably just have to re-read the thread a little more slowly to get that 'cause I genuinely don't know if I could explain it better than it's already been said without losing you further.  Matthew 1 and a few other passages seem to indicate something interesting about the number 14.  Although, I do wish someone would be able to explain to me why there are only 41 generations listed in Matthew 1.  It says 42, but when you re-count, a generation is missing.  I've heard some teachings about that, but I want to know if anybody around here has ever noticed that and has any insight on that.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2008, 10:01:38 PM »
Quote from:  Craig
It says 42, but when you re-count, a generation is missing.  I've heard some teachings about that, but I want to know if anybody around here has ever noticed that and has any insight on that.

yes Craig..some yrs back...., the missing Generation,...which in a few words, is Christs generation( THAT throu Him) being created NOW,..the SONS of GOD....

T
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

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Re: Revelation 7 - why are 12 tribes mentioned instead of 13?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2008, 10:17:37 PM »
That was Martin! Haha.