Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Book of Revelation

Revelation 14 - Sequence

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meerkat:
I have been wondering about the sequence of events in Revelation 14

Revelation 13 ends with the mark of the beast

Revelation 14 starts with the mark of the lamb and the 144,000 -virgins spiritually pure - didn't take the mark of the beast first fruits redeemed from the earth (first resurrection) These have died to the flesh and are led by the Spirit.

verse 6-7 Angel proclaims everlasting gospel - worship God (hour of judgement has come)

verse 8 2nd angel - Babylon has fallen, nations have drunk wine of fornication

verse 9-10 3rd angel - If you worship beast (receive mark) you will drink of the wine of wrath of God (judgement) with fire and brimstone (lake of fire) in the presence of lamb and holy angels

verse 12 Then it says that Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus    - Relates to Matt 13:43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.  Does this mean that Here is (now revealed) the patience of the saints (when) they keep the commandments of God (worship God) and the faith of Jesus (when they now believe have faith in Jesus)

verse 13 Voice says Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord henceforth, rest from there labours/works follow them  - Continuation of verse 12

verse 14-15 harvest (second resurrection?? from the Lake of fire)  I am thinking that the dead are not resurrected then thrown into the Lake of fire, or tormented in the presence of the Lamb and Holy Angels, but resurrected from the Lake of fire.

Does this sequence relate to 1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

To me this looks like the story of salvation.

Dallas:
This should sound familiar because it is history.

The mark of the beast, Nero Cesaer proclaims none can buy any thing unless it is through him, the apostles and early church refuse to acknowledge Nero's divinity and become persecuted and even killed for it. They died to the flesh, they gave up living by the word of man and now only on the word of God.
The angel proclaims the gospel and many come Christ through the preaching of the church, and the end of Jerusalem is enminent for the old has become useless since the new covenant had started to take over.
Babylon has fallen (Jerusalem) deserves her punishment for she has become unfaithful and untrue. Therefore Rome descended upon her and laid siege utterly destroying her in 70 AD.
The church who were being highly persecuted during this great tribulation were patient for God to fulfill their word and stood strong against the hatred.
Blessed are those who nolonger gain there righteousness from the works of the law, for it has passed away, but those can rest knowing thier righteousness was of Him.
Now the presence of anyone who is resting on the Lord, who are righteous because of the Lord, burns anyone who is still trying to raise up the ashes of the old burnt city...Baylon.


It is the salvation story, literally played out as was written. that's why revelation was a book of celebration, when they read it it was happening and they saw it unfolding before their eyes and that brought much hope, but now we get to look back and see what took place.

martincisneros:
My questions about the Babylon of the book of Revelation being Old Jerusalem are surrounding whether or not Old Jerusalem was such a booming economic center that sold all of the things that Revelation 18 mentions all of the laments over no longer being able to buy such finery in that city.  Also, with regards to all of the people lamenting from the ships of the sea over such a glorious city having been destroyed in one hour.  Also, the statement about in one hour it's destruction having happened.  And then, what about the fact that it supposedly would never be rebuilt.  Jerusalem's got all kinds of maintainence that have been done to it, all kinds of additions added to it, etc.  In Revelation 17:8 with regards to the beast that ascends from the abyss and destroys Babylon, all of the people of the world worship it -- whose names had not been written in the book of life.  Jews who hadn't even embraced the Lordship of Jesus Christ absolutely despised Nero, the Caesars, Rome, etc.  It was a foreign occupier that they hated with a passion!  Many Judeans also hated the Romans, and not just Jews and some Christians who, like today, were excessively political and of this world in their thinking.

Plus, Mystery Babylon is the woman/city who rules over the kings of the earth.  Old Jerusalem never ruled over the kings of the earth.  Did Old Jerusalem sell absolutely all of those things that they were lamenting no longer being able to ever buy from there?  The spices and sacrifices sorta make sense, but what about all of the other stuff?  Ivory?  Costly wood?  Bronze?  Iron?  Marble?  Perhaps Marble, but what about the metals, elephant tusks, and finer woods?  Was Old Jerusalem a major chariot producer?  Sorta the General Motors of the day?  What about pearls since clams would have been considered unclean?  Was it ever considered a strong city during the first century?  Was Jerusalem a major port city?  That's the implication of Revelation 18.

Does Old Jerusalem match all of these descriptions in the book of Revelation?  I'm just wondering, because to say that the city on 7 hills is Old Jerusalem sorta makes sense from how badly Jesus went off on them in Matthew 23.  Has anyone documented it to the point of each of these details that are given of Mystery Babylon?

And then, under the preterist view, who were the two witnesses whose words made fire fall from heaven and who jointly testified for as long as Revelation 11 indicates?  And when were they raised from the dead after the 3 and a half days of their deaths?  And where's the evidence that they and they alone ascended to heaven at that time, after their bodily resurrections?  And can we pin the earthquake immediately afterwards that Revelation 11 closes with?

I'm a total partial preterist if each of these can be documented for me.  Not sorta, maybe, and typologically/figuratively, but if detail by detail...

Dallas:
Hello martin,

This is going to sound like a total cop-out, but...

There are definate answers, however coming from the direction you are they will make no sense or seem out to lunch. There needs to be a solid foundation.

Take a look at say, David Chilton's Days of vengence, there is some phenominal foundational prophetic explanation stuff.

I have learned not to go into much detail because it usually ends up in I'm right you're wrong *piss off* attitude and I have no time or desire for that in my life anymore.

I have no problem discussing ideas and concepts with people serious about it.

God has definatley blessed me with the honor of teaching about His son's amazing gift and our Father's love and life for us, but not to be a debate for the sake of ego.


--- Quote ---And then, under the preterist view, who were the two witnesses whose words made fire fall from heaven and who jointly testified for as long as Revelation 11 indicates?  And when were they raised from the dead after the 3 and a half days of their deaths?  And where's the evidence that they and they alone ascended to heaven at that time, after their bodily resurrections?  And can we pin the earthquake immediately afterwards that Revelation 11 closes with?
--- End quote ---

First, I'm a neither a full or partial preterist... probably the best way is saying I am closer to both the either. I come from an understanding that all things are completed and finalized and in the same breath being efected as a result of the cross.

The two witnesses are, the law and the prophets and God/Jesus. The 3 1/2 is refering to the daniel 3 1/2 days. There is alot of prophetic imagery all coming together here, and if you don't bring the diferent aspects from throughout the bible it will never make sense, even though it easily should.

martincisneros:

--- Quote from: Dallas on June 26, 2008, 06:34:45 AM ---Take a look at say, David Chilton's Days of vengence, there is some phenominal foundational prophetic explanation stuff.

--- End quote ---

I've been wanting to have a look at David Chilton's books.  I found them online sometime back and should have a link on this computer "somewhere."  I was wanting to study Postmillenialism a little more deeply "eventually," but was curious about any UR authors that were writing from that perspective so that I wouldn't have to read so much Calvinist stuff, and Dr. Harold Lovelace mentioned David Chilton when I was asking about a UR alternative.


--- Quote from: Dallas on June 26, 2008, 06:34:45 AM ---I have learned not to go into much detail because it usually ends up in I'm right you're wrong *piss off* attitude and I have no time or desire for that in my life anymore.

I have no problem discussing ideas and concepts with people serious about it.

--- End quote ---

I'm the exact same way.  I walk away from a lot of stuff before people get started when I feel any incling of the back hand of presumption trying to swat in my direction.  I've left a lot of answers to my posts on these boards completely unanswered because I felt an argument coming, no matter what I'd of said of evidence or clarification about something that I was saying.  I hold to a lot of beliefs that a lot of Universalists around here don't, and I grudgingly came to each of my conclusions with a hundred times the proof that it would have taken to have convinced each of them 'cause I've historically been a stubborn rascal that God's had to keep on a short leash.  I can prove absolutely anything that I've ever said.  I just don't.  With all of my stuff on the table, that's no guarantee that anybody would come to the same conclusion, so why frustrate myself with anyone?  In the back of my mind I can just oversimplify by saying to myself "they don't know about this or this," and move on from there on to other things that we can more easily agree upon without getting into all kinds of other forms of intricate psychology with people.  But if I showed anybody all of the proof that it took to convince me of any of my beliefs, and felt like it got shelved until they were ready to deal with it, I'm not sure if I'd be all of that sanctified about it.  And I don't want to have to answer to God for having allowed myself to have gotten so frustrated.  It's totally against the law in the Kingdom of God for me to carry a single burden (1Peter 5:6-7).  I'm simply not going to do it.  My first spiritual father in the Kingdom of Christ (1Corinthians 4:14-16) who shall go unnamed lest I take heat again for my background in the Body of Christ from someone else reading this that decides to do a drive-by -- he taught me better by precept and by example from 2Timothy 2 that a servant of the Lord MUST NOT be in strife, under any circumstances WHATSOEVER because per Jesus's teachings in the parable of the sower in Mark 4 and the relevant additional witnesses in the synoptics, strife opens the door for the adversary to steal the Word from me that was sown.  I don't have ANY time for that WHATSOEVER.  I need the multiplied fruits of my righteousness in Jesus Christ (2Corinthians 9:6-11).  There is absolutely no fuss worth my losing what I need from God right in the middle of it being transported to me.  Too many things in God's purposes in one's life -- under the most ideal of circumstances -- take far too long anyway, without my stepping outside of love and reaping the results of darkness.  I just can't.

But as soon as the Holy Spirit lets me, I'm going to be a voracious reader of David Chilton's books if my Lord is willing.

Blessings :cloud9:

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