Rapture dream

[Molly]

That would be like saying, There are no Old Testament saints.

And, we know there are Old Testament saints who are also natural Israel.

You can be natural Israel AND the inheritor of the promise.

In fact, I think that is who inherits the promise. [as you all know by now].

[Doug]

That would be like saying, There are no Old Testament saints.

Are you referring to "Natural Israel is Hagar the bondwoman" posted by redhotmagma? He was alluding to Paul's statement.

Galatians 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Of course there were Old Testament saints, such as those listed in Hebrews 11. Paul shows they all had faith in God's word.

And, we know there are Old Testament saints who are also natural Israel.

You can be natural Israel AND the inheritor of the promise.

In fact, I think that is who inherits the promise. [as you all know by now].

Those who inherit the promises are those who have faith in Christ, not in their ethnic heritage.

Paul taught that the prophets of the OT are the church's foundation, along with the apostles. [Ephesians 2:20]

Doug

[Molly]

Galatians 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

This is not saying natural Israel is Hagar.  It is saying those born after the flesh persecute those who are born again of Spirit.

It's not reflecting on any ethnic group, because the same group is and can be both.

So flesh is Hagar.

And Spirit is the free woman.

[Doug]

Galatians 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

This is not saying natural Israel is Hagar.  It is saying those born after the flesh persecute those who are born again of Spirit.

It's not reflecting on any ethnic group, because the same group is and can be both.

If it does not refer to an ethnic group, then I suppose you would agree that it refers to those practicing Judaism, and the Mosaic law, where circumcision, and national identity were quite prominent.

Galatians 4
 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham.

So flesh is Hagar.

And Spirit is the free woman.

Yes. One could be an ethnic Jew who became free of the bondage of the Mosaic law, by faith in Christ.

The history of ethnic Israel in the OT provides examples for the church, Paul said: "and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." [1 Corinthians 10:11]

Doug

[thinktank]

God promised though that he would take natural Israel, through promise of his word.

They shall be changed and follow Jesus, because God promised them.

I don't know whether 'them' = Jews in general or All ethnic Jews.

The scripture says they are enemies for the gospel for the gentiles sake but yet are called the elect.

Romans 11:28
 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Thus the elect means they have been given the 'promises'

which I imagine is world dominion, from Jerusalem as capital city, with King David ruling the Earth.

But before that takes place the counterfeit is seated in Jerusalem and rules the world.

But through reading scripture it seems to be a back and forth affair

Jews accept Jesus, then reject Jesus, then accept beast, then reject beast, then accept Jesus again and forever.

There seems to be lots going on in Israel before Jews accept Jesus as their king though, such as wars and destruction.

Then rebuild and accept Jesus, but then reject him and the sacrifices and place the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

[Molly]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

house of Israel disappears into the gentile countries and lives like a gentile [squanders his wealth as a son]

15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

house of Israel loses its identity.  Joins the gentiles.  Sloping the pigs in a gentile country.

18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

House of Israel decides to repent and return to Father as a servant

22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

Father dresses the house of Israel in the robe and signet ring of a king and orders a huge party to celebrate his return.  The mystery is revealed to him [the Gentiles.]

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry

house of Israel was lost [into a gentile identity] and is now found.  House of Israel told he is a son.

29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

house of Judah [older faithful brother] is angry because he has done all the right things and stayed with his Father and kept the law and the Temple while the younger son was out playing and slopping the pigs and acting like a gentile.

31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

The Father assures the house of Judah that he is still a close son and an inheritor but says of his younger son:

32...: for this thy brother was was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

house of Israel, the younger son has returned to the family and thus is now alive.

[Doug]

God promised though that he would take natural Israel, through promise of his word.

They shall be changed and follow Jesus, because God promised them.

I don't know whether 'them' = Jews in general or All ethnic Jews.

The scripture says they are enemies for the gospel for the gentiles sake but yet are called the elect.

Romans 11:28
 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Thus the elect means they have been given the 'promises'

In this chapter Paul refers to ethnic Israel, and he contrasts them with the "election." Notice vs. 7, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." This means that the "election" is something other than all of the Jewish nation, or all Israel after the flesh. The election refers to those who had found what Israel was seeking for, by believing in Christ. In other words it refers to the church.

Yet, Paul does hold out hope for those who had been blinded, as Paul himself had previously been, before Christ appeared to him in a vision. (After which he was struck blind, but he was healed from that.)

Paul says, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." [vs. 27] This must mean that they will be raised up from their graves, in the judgment, and then they will learn the truth, their blindness will be cured, and they will be reconciled to God. It is the same thing Jesus spoke of, in Matthew 10:15, 11:23-24, etc. He also said the people of Sodom, and Nineveh, will be there too. And some of them will have a more tolerable experience than Jews who saw the miracles of Jesus, yet did not believe the gospel.

which I imagine is world dominion, from Jerusalem as capital city, with King David ruling the Earth.

The prophecies that seem to indicate that Jews will be doted on by Gentiles, are using metaphorical language. The "house of Judah" and "house of David" in Zechariah 10, 12, 13 are terms that apply to the church, not ethnic Jews. These prophecies did not come to pass in 70 AD; the prophecy says that God will fight on behalf of Jerusalem, and the foes who come against Jerusalem will suffer a plague, affecting the eyes and the mouth. That did not happen to the Roman armies. The interpretation is given in Revelation 20:8-9; they come against the "camp of the saints" or the church, and the "beloved city." These are spiritual battles, described in terms of old fashioned warfare.

In OT prophecy David is often referred to in the place of Christ, who already reigns on the throne of David, as the church is the "heavenly Jerusalem." [Hebrews 12:22-23] So the idea that ethnic Jews will have dominion over the earth is a fable.

But before that takes place the counterfeit is seated in Jerusalem and rules the world.

But through reading scripture it seems to be a back and forth affair

Jews accept Jesus, then reject Jesus, then accept beast, then reject beast, then accept Jesus again and forever.

There seems to be lots going on in Israel before Jews accept Jesus as their king though, such as wars and destruction.

Then rebuild and accept Jesus, but then reject him and the sacrifices and place the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

Can you provide specific scriptures that support these conclusions? Then let's see if they really say what is suggested, or whether there is some better interpretation. 

Doug 

[Molly]

The covenant with Abraham was based on grace.  This is the everlasting covenant.  God does all the work and keeps the covenant himself.

There is nothing anyone can do to earn it or to become part of it.  It is by grace alone.

The house of Judah, which retained their identity, thought and still think, they can do it themselves.

They keep the law, keep the Sabbath, light the candles, --but they do not have the heart of God.

FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'  Mat 13:15

That promise was given to the house of Israel, who become the gentiles, who become the church.

But the house of Judah will be saved after the fulness of the Gentiles [all the house of Israel is brought in] because their fathers were the elect [see the implication here],

Thus, Paul tells us,

And, so, all Israel will be saved.  Rom 11

[Doug]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.

Doug

[Molly]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.

Doug

Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]?  So, is the younger son the church? 

[Doug]

The covenant with Abraham was based on grace.  This is the everlasting covenant.  God does all the work and keeps the covenant himself.

There is nothing anyone can do to earn it or to become part of it.  It is by grace alone.

Titus 2:10-16
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Doug

[Doug]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.

Doug

Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]?  So, is the younger son the church?

Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Doug

[Molly]

Who is Peter talking to?

1 Peter 2:9

Ye are
a chosen generation
a royal priesthood
a holy nation
a peculiar people


"peculiar" [people]
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.

a peculiar people means we are his possession [his flock]

But look who was first declared a peculiar people--the twelve tribes of Israel.  So is Peter talking to the church?

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

[Molly]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.

Doug

Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]?  So, is the younger son the church?

Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Doug

I don't think you answered my question.  Who is the younger son?

[Doug]

Who is Peter talking to?

1 Peter 2:9

Ye are
a chosen generation
a royal priesthood
a holy nation
a peculiar people


"peculiar" [people]
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.

a peculiar people means we are his possession [his flock]

But look who was first declared a peculiar people--the twelve tribes of Israel.  So is Peter talking to the church?

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Look at verse 10.

1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The people Peter addresses in his epistle were previously Gentiles (and maybe Israelites too) of many different ethnic backgrounds. Now they were brought together and became one people in Christ.

Doug

[Molly]

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:

Yes they [the church] exactly fulfill the prophecy in Hosea spoken to the house of Israel. 

Hos 1:6...And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.


9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

--Hos 1

[Doug]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.

Doug

Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]?  So, is the younger son the church?

Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Doug

I don't think you answered my question.  Who is the younger son?

There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?

 Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

[Doug]

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:

Yes they [the church] exactly fulfill the prophecy in Hosea spoken to the house of Israel. 

Hos 1:6...And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.


9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

--Hos 1

What about these?

Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Hosea 5:3
I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.
   
Hosea 5:5
And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them.

Hosea 5:9
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.

Hosea 5:11-12
Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.

Hosea 6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
   
Hosea 6:10
I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.

Hosea 7:1
When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.

Hosea 7:8
Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Hosea 7:11
Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.

Hosea 8:9
For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.

Hosea 8:11
Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

Hosea 9:3
They shall not dwell in the LORD's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.

Hosea 9:11
As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

Hosea 9:13
Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Hosea 9:16
Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

Doug

[Molly]

Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham

Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise.  That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.  Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].



The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel.  Any reason why not?

11And he said, A certain man had two sons:

two sons:  house of Judah, house of Israel

The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.

Doug

Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]?  So, is the younger son the church?

Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Doug

I don't think you answered my question.  Who is the younger son?

There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?

 Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

Neither.

[Molly]

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:

Yes they [the church] exactly fulfill the prophecy in Hosea spoken to the house of Israel. 

Hos 1:6...And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.


9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

--Hos 1

What about these?

Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Hosea 5:3
I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.
   
Hosea 5:5
And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them.

Hosea 5:9
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.

Hosea 5:11-12
Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.

Hosea 6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
   
Hosea 6:10
I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.

Hosea 7:1
When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.

Hosea 7:8
Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Hosea 7:11
Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.

Hosea 8:9
For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.

Hosea 8:11
Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

Hosea 9:3
They shall not dwell in the LORD's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.

Hosea 9:11
As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

Hosea 9:13
Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Hosea 9:16
Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

Doug

Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.

He even divorces them.

They become...gasp....Gentiles.

BUT

it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
  Hos 1

[Doug]

...

Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.

He even divorces them.

They become...gasp....Gentiles.

BUT

it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
  Hos 1

Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Doug

[Molly]

...

Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.

He even divorces them.

They become...gasp....Gentiles.

BUT

it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
  Hos 1

Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Doug

But, Paul is quoting exactly from Hos 1 in Rom 9.

He knows that prophecy was given to the house of Israel.

And, now he's applying it to Gentiles--the exact same prophecy.

So in Hosea 1 we have house of Judah and house of Israel.
And, in Romans 9 we have Jews and Gentiles.

I don't know what else to say.  I don't see how it could be clearer.

If you prophecy over one group of people and suddenly another group fulfills the prophecy 800 years later, couldn't we assume they are the same group?

Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

It doesn't matter what name you give them, house of Israel or Gentile Christians, they both fit the description.

[Doug]

...

Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.

He even divorces them.

They become...gasp....Gentiles.

BUT

it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
  Hos 1

Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Doug

But, Paul is quoting exactly from Hos 1 in Rom 9.

He knows that prophecy was given to the house of Israel.

And, now he's applying it to Gentiles--the exact same prophecy.

So in Hosea 1 we have house of Judah and house of Israel.
And, in Romans 9 we have Jews and Gentiles.

I don't know what else to say.  I don't see how it could be clearer.

If you prophecy over one group of people and suddenly another group fulfills the prophecy 800 years later, couldn't we assume they are the same group?

Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

It doesn't matter what name you give them, house of Israel or Gentile Christians, they both fit the description.

So, if all the Christians in those days were really Israelites after the flesh and not Gentiles, why was Paul so sorrowful, in the beginning of the chapter?

Romans 9
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

If they were Israelites after the flesh this sorrow about their unbelief would be meaningless.

Doug

[Molly]

...

Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.

He even divorces them.

They become...gasp....Gentiles.

BUT

it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
  Hos 1

Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Doug

But, Paul is quoting exactly from Hos 1 in Rom 9.

He knows that prophecy was given to the house of Israel.

And, now he's applying it to Gentiles--the exact same prophecy.

So in Hosea 1 we have house of Judah and house of Israel.
And, in Romans 9 we have Jews and Gentiles.

I don't know what else to say.  I don't see how it could be clearer.

If you prophecy over one group of people and suddenly another group fulfills the prophecy 800 years later, couldn't we assume they are the same group?

Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

It doesn't matter what name you give them, house of Israel or Gentile Christians, they both fit the description.

So, if all the Christians in those days were really Israelites after the flesh and not Gentiles, why was Paul so sorrowful, in the beginning of the chapter?

Romans 9
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

If they were Israelites after the flesh this sorrow about their unbelief would be meaningless.

Doug

He's sorrowful over the house of Judah who is being shut out of the great commission for a time while the Gentiles are brought [back] in.

He is house of Judah, Jesus is house of Judah after the flesh, they carried the law and rebuilt the Temple, and now all this fuss is being made over the youngest son who has returned home.

In Romans 11 he talks about how in times past the Gentiles didn't believe and Judah did, and now the Jews don't believe and the Gentiles do.

It's just the way God is doing it--so it will be clear to everyone who is in charge.



29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11

[Doug]

Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Doug

I don't think you answered my question.  Who is the younger son?

There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?

 Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

Neither.

Okay, let's try again.

Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which of the two men compares with the younger son in the parable of the prodigal son?
Which one compares with the older son?

Doug