Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 55493 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #500 on: January 04, 2012, 05:17:45 PM »
Hosea: A Prophetic Standard for the House of Israel


Was God Finished With Israel?


The Prophet Hosea's book is the first of what are known as the "minor" or short prophets of the Old Testament, whose writings were shorter in length than the writings of the "major" prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah. Yet Hosea's prophecies were not only important, but of especial interest for us today in the lands of Western Christendom, for as the Biblical Encyclopedia (Gray and Adams) tells us, "The prophecies of Hosea were addressed to the Ten Tribes." (iii:713)

Nevertheless, many commentaries seem to overlook the historic and prophetic importance of the division of Israel into two nations, usually referred to as the "Two Houses of Israel," which Hosea labels "Ephraim" and "Judah." The nation of Ephraim constituted the northern ten of the twelve tribes of Israel, receiving this name from their largest tribe and inheritor of the national birthright blessings given to his father, Joseph (1 Chron. 5:1-2). Bible reference books often simply refer to them as "Israel," or "the House of Israel," in contrast with two-tribe Judah.

Yet some commentaries attempt to make Hosea's prophecies fit the return of the House of Judah to Canaan after the Babylonian captivity. This does such violence to the meaning of the prophecies that even well-known dispensationalist author, Arno C. Gabelein, rebuked such a view and declared, "His [Hosea's] prophecy is directed almost exclusively to the house of Israel."

The book of the Prophet Hosea could in fact be described as the redemptive history of the ten tribe House of Israel. Here the prophet presents an account of her sin, punishment and restoration, beginning his first chapter with a concise synopsis using prophetic and symbolic language. He has little good to say of Israel's then current moral condition in the opening verses of this first chapter; his terse, harsh, sad words remind one of his later Judean counterpart, the Prophet Jeremiah. In fact, the Biblical Encyclopedia says, "he was the Jeremiah of Israel."

Although Hosea had a similar moral message to Jeremiah, calling for repentance from sin, yet the House of Israel's prophetic prospects were significantly different from those of Judah. The dissimularity, however, is not clearly understood at all by modern expositors, who fail to give the nation of Ephraim-Israel any future in the plan of God. One strangely declares, "The prophets of Judah could look forward to a restored people and a repaired polity. The ten tribes had no separate future. Their temporal punishment was irreversible." (ibid. p.712)

Or was it? A closer look at Hosea's prophecies sharply contradicts that claim. Despite Ephraim's sin, Hosea forecasts what can only be considered a magnificent future for the House of Israel. They were to rid themselves of their idols, become the Lord's bride, receive mercy, be saved by the Lord's might, and expand greatly in numbers as the sand on the seashore. To ignore all of this—and more—is to be blind indeed to Hosea's tremendous prophetic promises. Yet the expositors who recognize only the Jews as legitimate Israelites after the end of the Babylonian captivity have just such blind confusion. And their confusion can only increase as Hosea's blessings upon Ephraim-Israel increase.

Other mysteries for the expositors: In the parallel passages Hosea 1:11 and Jer. 3:18, if Judah and Israel were taken into two different exiles by two different enemies, how is it that Judah shall walk with Israel? The Keil-Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary maintains that verse eleven "presupposes that Judah will find itself in the same situation as Israel; that is to say, that it will also be rejected by the Lord." (x:47) Yet we know for a fact that Judah was not divorced by God as was Ephraim, for Hosea records, "I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God" (i:7). Instead, Scripture informs us that the Assyrians who conquered Israel also captured all of the "fenced cities" of Judah in 701 B.C. (2 Ki. 18:13), and so a main body of Judah went into Assyrian exile along with Israel. Thus, Judah walked with, or to, Israel in their exile.

Yet this was not yet the prophesied reunion of the Two Houses of Israel, Ephraim and Judah, for (as Keil-Delitzsch states), "the object of the union is to appoint themselves one head, and go up out of the land" (x:47), according to Hosea 1:11. Where then did they together go? Some leading commentaries recognize that they did not return to old Canaan!

For example, the Keil-Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary (x:49) says, "So far as the fulfillment of this prophecy is concerned, the fact that the patriarchal promise of the innumerable multiplication of Israel is to be realized through the pardon and restoration of Israel...shows clearly enough that we are not to look for this in the return of the ten tribes from captivity to Palestine, their native land....the numbers of the ten tribes, who may have attached themselves to the Judaeans on their return, or who returned to Galilee afterwards as years rolled by, formed but a very small fraction of the number that had been carried away; the attachment of these few to Judah could not properly be called a union of the sons of Israel and of the sons of Judah, and still less was it a fulfillment of the words, 'They appoint themselves one head'...this fulfillment falls within the Messianic times, and hitherto has only been realized in very small beginnings, which furnish a pledge of their complete fulfillment in the last times...(Rom. 11:25-26)."

This eminent commentary contradicts much of the popular teaching today concerning Ephraim, the House of Israel. The ten tribes never returned to Palestine, other than a tiny remnant, and therefore logically must remain "lost tribes" in our world today. Further, the joining of the two houses of Judah and Ephraim-Israel has not yet taken place, awaiting the dawn of the millennial age. Yet, Keil-Delitzsch's solution is that Ephraim-Israel must only be a spiritual people in our world today. (x:49)

Another mystery: Verse eleven of chapter one concludes by saying, "for great shall be the day of Jezreel." These words cause untold consternation for the expositors. "The day of Jezreel causes no little difficulty," admits Keil-Delitzsch (x:48). This is true, if the verse is made to refer to the city and valley in old Canaan where Assyria broke Israel's might (2 Ki. 15:29). How could a place of tragedy for Israel be a symbol for anything good? But taking instead the Hebrew meaning of "scattering" or "sowing," it makes eminent sense. Israel was to be scattered and sown in the lands of her exile, so that Hosea could proclaim that she would become as the sand of the sea for multitude (1:10). This cannot await a millennial fulfillment, since Israel will not be in exile then.

The word, "Jezreel," has a double meaning of sowing or scattering, yet the latter meaning is often neglected by many commentaries, who thus fail to see that Ephraim-Israel did not return to Canaan, but traveled far afield in her exile down to the present day.

The New Testament treatment of Hosea's tremendous prophecy in chapter one, verse ten was given by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:25-26. Paul quoted this to show that Israel's exile, her "sowing in the earth" still continued to that time, and that Israel's restoration still lay in the future. Some expositors try to spiritualize this, but since the spiritual fulfillment of prophecy parallels and augments the physical fulfillment, Israel's physical exile must have still continued to the time of Christ.

Has no one noticed the incongruity of giving Judah's prophecies a literal, physical fulfillment, while limiting Ephraim-Israel's prophecies to the spiritual realm? In actual fact, the physical and spiritual realms parallel one another as a necessary double witness (Dt. 19:15; Mt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1).

Furthermore, from other prophecies (such as Ezkiel 37) we know that Ephraim-Israel's spiritual restoration was to precede her physical reunion with Judah. This true spiritual restoration could only begin to take place with the coming of Christ, as Peter proclaimed in the New Testament: "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (1 Peter 2:10) Peter's language is lifted directly from Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, showing clearly that these Old Testament prophecies of Ephraim-Israel's restoration had not previously been fulfilled.

Paul in Romans 9:26 also quoted Hosea 1:10, gave an emphatic reference to their physical "place" of exile, and then in the next chapter declared that the Gospel must go to them to the ends of the earth (Rom.10:18). Clearly, Ephraim-Israel, the ten tribe House of Israel, had not been regathered to old Canaan! Her scattering took her to new lands of promise (2 Sam. 7:10) where her spiritual restoration is now well underway. -J.S. Brooks

http://www.israelite.info/

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #501 on: January 04, 2012, 05:27:02 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Even if one could prove beyond a doubt that he or she descended directly from Ephraim, that would not entitle him or her to inherit the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or the other promises given to Israel, according to John the Baptist.

Luke 3:7-9
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire

John the Baptist is talking specifically to the representatives of the Pharisees who are Jews.  Doesn't context mean anything?  He's not talking to the house of Israel which is long lost by this time.  He's talking to a specific group of people.  Both John the Baptist and Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees, Vipers!  I'm sure they weren't too pleased by it.  Oh, right, they crucified him.

Once again, the promise comes through Ephraim, the house of Israel.  Not through the house of Judah,
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 05:30:40 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #502 on: January 04, 2012, 07:03:08 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Even if one could prove beyond a doubt that he or she descended directly from Ephraim, that would not entitle him or her to inherit the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or the other promises given to Israel, according to John the Baptist.

Luke 3:7-9
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire

John the Baptist is talking specifically to the representatives of the Pharisees who are Jews. 


Read the rest of John's message.

Luke 3:3-6
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.    
   
All mountains, John said, would be made low, and valleys filled. Literally, that did not happen in the first century. Not a single mountain was made low, literally. But the mountains and hills of Isaiah's prophecy are metaphors, and they allude to the mountains and hills of Israel, mentioned by Jacob, when he blessed Joseph, in Genesis 49:26. He said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

The blessings Jacob inherited were high and lofty like the highest mountains, and durable, or eternal, like the "everlasting hills." Jacob realized that the promise of possessing the land of Canaan represented something higher, of a spiritual nature, and more lasting than the literal land of Canaan. He looked for a "better country, that is, an heavenly." [Hebrews 11:16] He looked for the resurrection, and the kingdom of God.

When John the Baptist said, "every valley shall be filled," he must have referred to the spiritual things that valleys represent. Joel said,

Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

Valleys or ravines of Judah are to "flow with waters." These refer to spiritual waters. A literal river could not cross the Dead Sea and flow uphill to the valley of Shittim!

In other scriptures valleys are sometimes symbolic of judgments, e.g. Gehenna, and they are scenes of battles, such as the valley of Jehoshaphat [Joel 3:12] or Jezreel. [Hosea 1:5, 11] Valleys being filled might also represent missing revelations being given, as valleys are places where the earth has been eroded away. Many revelations are included in the New Testament.

Mountains represent blessings, or promises. The promises to the ethnic Israelites are diminished in the New Testament; the literal temple loses its significance; the literal Jerusalem is equated with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman who was cast out of Abraham's house. Paul wrote:

Galatians 4:22-26
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


What a let-down for the hopes of the Jews! And less than 20 years after, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and the temple burned.

God's revelations are represented by the entire promised land. The crooked being made straight, and the rough ways smooth, probably both refer to hard sayings in the Bible being explained. There are many examples of this in the New Testament.


Doesn't context mean anything?  He's not talking to the house of Israel which is long lost by this time.  He's talking to a specific group of people.  Both John the Baptist and Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees, Vipers!  I'm sure they weren't too pleased by it.  Oh, right, they crucified him.

Once again, the promise comes through Ephraim, the house of Israel.  Not through the house of Judah,

No, the promise comes through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #503 on: January 04, 2012, 07:26:29 PM »
Yes, of course the promises come through Christ.

What I meant was the inheritance and the blessings are passed down through Ephraim, which is the same thing I've been saying for three or four pages.

Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #504 on: January 04, 2012, 08:42:08 PM »
what about "I form the light and the darkness I create peace and calamity (evil) I the lord do all these things?"

Yeah??  How does this disagree with what I'm saying?  God created this realm . . .but Adam let it dominate him.  In the end, the restoration will bring everything back into it's original and rightful alignment.  Natural will become secondary, spiritual will become primary.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #505 on: January 04, 2012, 08:52:04 PM »
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.

I whole-heartedly agree!!!  I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.


This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise

Not necessarily, your "interpretation" of Scripture may say otherwise, but it doesn't mean that's what it's really saying.  It's all based on where our perspectives are at.

I believe God - is - light.  That's my base.  He is life, light and freedom.  And anything that manifests otherwise is not of God directly.  yes, he created this realm and in it there is overwhelming evidence of death, destruction and decay.  But what does all of that derive from?  God?  Or Adam.  Spirit?  or flesh?  Death is the evidence of sin.  Yet there is no sin in God.  He is light and in him there is no darkness.  So when there's a message of darkness and despair looming over the church, I disregard it because my relationship with the Father is in light, not darkness.

It all depends on what perspective we are choosing to live in.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #506 on: January 04, 2012, 09:00:01 PM »
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.

I whole-heartedly agree!!!  I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.


This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise

Not necessarily, your "interpretation" of Scripture may say otherwise, but it doesn't mean that's what it's really saying.  It's all based on where our perspectives are at.

I believe God - is - light.  That's my base.  He is life, light and freedom.  And anything that manifests otherwise is not of God directly.  yes, he created this realm and in it there is overwhelming evidence of death, destruction and decay.  But what does all of that derive from?  God?  Or Adam.  Spirit?  or flesh?  Death is the evidence of sin.  Yet there is no sin in God.  He is light and in him there is no darkness.  So when there's a message of darkness and despair looming over the church, I disregard it because my relationship with the Father is in light, not darkness.

It all depends on what perspective we are choosing to live in.

Thats why he gave us these prophecies to warn us ahead of time and also to convert unbelievers when they see these things come to pass.
I don't know why else he would place these prophecies, maybe also to warn mankind that these things will come to pass if they don't repent.



Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #507 on: January 04, 2012, 09:01:35 PM »
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?

CHB

I think God shows up when people call on him.  But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature?  It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?"  The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more.  But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ."  The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not.  It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of.  This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that.  Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in.  The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all.  When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens.  We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.

So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it.  I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in.  Every GOOD THING comes from above.  The things God DOES send are things that induce life.  There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him?  There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live.  That's a whole other thread.

I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.

You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.

CHB

Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move.  And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore.  It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts.  A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire.  The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.

Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom.  It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on  the words already written that brings life to the pages.  And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.

As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms???  You're twisting things around on me.  I never said anything about the removal of a realm.  I did say the reversal, but not the removal.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #508 on: January 04, 2012, 09:11:31 PM »
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.

I whole-heartedly agree!!!  I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.


This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise

Not necessarily, your "interpretation" of Scripture may say otherwise, but it doesn't mean that's what it's really saying.  It's all based on where our perspectives are at.

I believe God - is - light.  That's my base.  He is life, light and freedom.  And anything that manifests otherwise is not of God directly.  yes, he created this realm and in it there is overwhelming evidence of death, destruction and decay.  But what does all of that derive from?  God?  Or Adam.  Spirit?  or flesh?  Death is the evidence of sin.  Yet there is no sin in God.  He is light and in him there is no darkness.  So when there's a message of darkness and despair looming over the church, I disregard it because my relationship with the Father is in light, not darkness.

It all depends on what perspective we are choosing to live in.

Thats why he gave us these prophecies to warn us ahead of time and also to convert unbelievers when they see these things come to pass.
I don't know why else he would place these prophecies, maybe also to warn mankind that these things will come to pass if they don't repent.

If you keep the entire Scripture in it's context, the prophesies were not aimed at the general population . . .they were aimed at the chosen nation of Israel.  For me, taking a prophecy from Scripture and super-imposing it on my generation is like what the evolutionists did when they concocted their theory.  There is no true evidence that man evolved from an ape.  They have no proof.  What they do have is huge gaps that they've filled in with logic . . .flimsy at best . . .but they got enough momentum with their facade that it took hold in many societies.  I believe it's the same thing with Scriptural prophecies.  I don't believe any of them were aimed at us at all. 

I've still yet to see anyone address the issue as to why Daniel was told to seal his book up . . .yet John, who's book was extremely similar to the same language and imagery as Daniel's, yet John was told to leave his book open . . . the things in it were already happening.  There are absolutely no statements in Revelation that would clearly proclaim that "that" generation could rest easy because the prophecies of the book were for another time.  It was instead, very clear that the prophecies given were not only for "that" time frame, but the events were already happening.

Like the evolution theory, the "end times" phenomena has been repeated so many times by so many people that it's just "assumed" that it was clearly for a generation at least 2,000 years removed.  I just fully believe there's a greater truth than what lies on the surface.

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #509 on: January 05, 2012, 03:43:52 AM »
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?

CHB

I think God shows up when people call on him.  But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature?  It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?"  The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more.  But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ."  The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not.  It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of.  This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that.  Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in.  The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all.  When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens.  We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.

So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it.  I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in.  Every GOOD THING comes from above.  The things God DOES send are things that induce life.  There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him?  There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live.  That's a whole other thread.

I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.

You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.

CHB

Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move.  And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore.  It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts.  A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire.  The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.

Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom.  It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on  the words already written that brings life to the pages.  And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.

As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms???  You're twisting things around on me.  I never said anything about the removal of a realm.  I did say the reversal, but not the removal.

Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?

Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #510 on: January 05, 2012, 07:21:22 AM »
Ha'shem [the name] revealed


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AkWmZq1FR8&feature=related

This is an interesting 7 part series.  I hope some would look at this and see what you think.  He gets the captivity wrong [only house of Judah was taken into Babylon, the other ten tribes were gone by then], but what he says about the name is interesting.  Does anyone know if what he says is correct?


32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.  Joel 2

for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."  Rom 10:13

Shouldn't we therefore know his name?  And, call him by name?



The house of Israel will be delivered in one day:

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.  Eze 39

 
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Zech 13:9

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #511 on: January 05, 2012, 03:18:31 PM »
 :cloud9: Molly, I will definitely watch this when I get time...... :thumbsup: thanks for the link.
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #512 on: January 05, 2012, 03:39:48 PM »

...

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.  Joel 2


No doubt the heavenly Jerusalem is meant here, not the earthly one. There was no deliverance for people in the earthly Jerusalem in 70 AD.


for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."  Rom 10:13

Shouldn't we therefore know his name?  And, call him by name?



The house of Israel will be delivered in one day:

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.  Eze 39


The context of this prophecy is a great feast for the birds.

Ezekiel 39
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

   
The elements of the prophecy are present in a similar prophecy in Revelation 19. No doubt John alludes to Ezekiel 39.

Revelation 19:17-18
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Verse 9 says "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

The fowls that fly in the midst of heaven are the ones who are called to the marriage supper. The parable of Jesus in Matthew 13:31-33 compares the kingdom of heaven to a tree in which birds dwell.

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.


The birds, evidently, are those called to the wedding supper, and all the mighty men, and the various animals, are metaphors too. A spiritual sword in used against spiritual things, not against flesh and blood. The flawed interpretations and theories are slaughtered, (by the spiritual sword) and the flesh is picked off them, and devoured. This has occurred throughout the history of the church, as various false teachings and flawed interpretations have been discredited. During and after the Reformation there were many examples. Restoring the true Gospel is a process.

Note that even chariots are on the menu in Ezekiel 39:20. But chariots are inedible, so these things are all metaphors. Horses and mules represent people with no understanding in Psalm 32:9.

Doug

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #513 on: January 05, 2012, 04:31:17 PM »
 :cloud9: Listened to 3 of them so far. Very good. Reminds me of something in the codes. The Word is Torah (5 books). Replace the word "word" with Torah all thru there and see what you come up. Everything came out of the Torah, like a scroll being opened from both sides at once, with the son and the cross in the center. The Son was the Torah that is Spirit, made flesh. This is why there is LIFE hidden in the Torah.

When I had that experience of seeing the Word explode from the cross in both directions at once, ie. backwards and forwards at the same time, and saw scenes from both the OT and "NT" unfolding simultaneously, it was the scroll being "opened".

The codes are set up with the son's name, so that there are 2 books on each side of the middle one that "point" to His name in the middle book. Just like the 2 "sides" of branches on the side of the golden candlestick. There are codes in there that form the shape of the menorah. The codes are astounding, too. Blessings.... :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:34:23 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #514 on: January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM »
11Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man'so making peace; 16and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. 19So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

--Eph 2

creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel. Peace, peace, to those far and near," says the LORD. "And I will heal them."  Isa 57:19


Both (τὰ ἀμφότερα)

Lit., the both. The neuter gender shows that Jews and Gentiles are conceived by the writer merely as two facts. The masculine is used in Ephesians 2:15, Ephesians 2:16.  one new MAN



Jews and Gentiles were formerly separated by a wall of partition--but now that wall is broken down--this refers to the Temple, somebody please expand on this, and to the laws which set apart the Jews from the Gentiles.  wall of partition

partition means 'a fence, an enclosing barrier, a hedge round about, a partition'



This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man

Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim,  formerly known as the Gentile,  the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?



that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation


And everything has become new from God - he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah, and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation.

--2 Cor 5:18, 19

« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 05:27:21 PM by Molly »

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #515 on: January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM »


This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man

Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim,  formerly known as the Gentile,  the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?



My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile.  The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different?  This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #516 on: January 05, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?

CHB

I think God shows up when people call on him.  But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature?  It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?"  The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more.  But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ."  The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not.  It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of.  This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that.  Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in.  The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all.  When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens.  We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.

So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it.  I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in.  Every GOOD THING comes from above.  The things God DOES send are things that induce life.  There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him?  There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live.  That's a whole other thread.

I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.

You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.

CHB

Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move.  And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore.  It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts.  A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire.  The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.

Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom.  It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on  the words already written that brings life to the pages.  And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.

As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms???  You're twisting things around on me.  I never said anything about the removal of a realm.  I did say the reversal, but not the removal.

Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?

Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.

CHB

Yeah, everything comes back to God on one level or another . . .but not all things are "directly" sent by God as many would think.  If I build a house in a flood zone and the river goes out of it's banks and takes my house . . .am I to understand then that God took my house?  Or would it be because those are the consequences from "my" bad choices. I believe of course that God created the heavens AND THE EARTH . . .and I also believe that the earth was made "for" man to inhabit.  But I "don't" believe the earth as we know it now is the same earth that he originally created in the sense that I believe the natural realm was in balance with, but not dominant over the spiritual realm as it is today.  I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself.  I don't see God in this spiritual control room where he has his hands on every lever and is making every decision as to whether to send rain, send drought, send sun, send clouds . . .I believe all of that goes with the original order of how life operates in this realm as he created it.

So when a hurricane hits, I don't believe "God sent it".  I believe God can stop it in response to the prayers of his kids . . .but I think the fact that it happens is just the nature of the realm we live in.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #517 on: January 05, 2012, 05:52:57 PM »


This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man

Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim,  formerly known as the Gentile,  the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?



My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile.  The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different?  This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO

The one new man is both Jew and Gentile [the house of Judah and the house of Israel] combined in one person--the sum is greater than the parts--this one new man is/will be the manifested sons of God.   And, this falls on the head of Ephraim [the house of Israel].  This is Ephraim's inheritance.

To the Jew Jesus says, Behold I leave your house desolate....

Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

--Mat 13:12

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #518 on: January 05, 2012, 06:05:05 PM »
...

Jews and Gentiles were formerly separated by a wall of partition--but now that wall is broken down--this refers to the Temple, somebody please expand on this, and to the laws which set apart the Jews from the Gentiles.  wall of partition

partition means 'a fence, an enclosing barrier, a hedge round about, a partition'


There were two primary ways to become a Jew: (1) you could be a Jew by birth, by having Jewish parents, and Jewish ancestry; and (2) you could become a Jew by conversion, and by keeping the law, and by being circumcised (for males).
   
Male Jewish children were circumcised on the 8th day after birth.

In the temple complex there were two parts, separated by a low partition. The Gentiles were allowed into the outer section. The wall of partition in the temple separated the outer court from the temple itself. No man who was uncircumcised could pass through the gate in the partition to the inner section. But now, Christ is the temple, replacing the literal one made with hands. In him there is no wall of partition, separating Jew from Gentile.


This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man

Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim,  formerly known as the Gentile,  the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?


No.


that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation


And everything has become new from God - he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah, and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation.

--2 Cor 5:18, 19

The blessings of Jacob were passed on to Joseph, and his name "Israel" was given to both the sons of Joseph. In Matthew's gospel, Jesus is put in the role of Israel, when he was taken to Egypt.

Matthew 2:14-15
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Matthew is quoting Hosea:

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

There are many other subtle ways in which Matthew identified Jesus with Israel; see Jesus as Israel: The Typological Structure of Matthew's Gospel. Peter J. Leithart. Or, in case that link does not work,

http://www.leithart.com/pdf/jesus-as-israel-the-typological-structure-of-matthew-s-gospel.pdf

The name "Israel" has been inherited by Jesus, too.

Doug

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #519 on: January 05, 2012, 06:08:27 PM »
 :cloud9: @ Molly.....Off topic, but on topic with your scripture......

This scripture is at work in feast of Tabernacles.....those that are pressing in are partaking of the hidden riches, the secret treasure of the pavillions, as the Spirit translates what is contained but not used (a void Word, ie. not employed by the Spirit = no life received out of it) out of their kingdoom of darkness (ignorance), and into the kingdom of light (understanding). A candle (light/understanding) hid under a bushel (bound by the carnal mind) gives off no illumination.

There is a "higher" form of the gift of tongues and interpretation. where the portion of tongues given to believer's originally that they were to press in to have increased, is being translated. This is part of the meaning of gold coin that was taken from the one, and given to the one with many.

This is a time to press in like no other. My  :2c:  Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #520 on: January 05, 2012, 06:36:32 PM »

The one new man is both Jew and Gentile [the house of Judah and the house of Israel] combined in one person--the sum is greater than the parts--this one new man is/will be the manifested sons of God.   And, this falls on the head of Ephraim [the house of Israel].  This is Ephraim's inheritance.


In the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.

The ones that are mentioned are Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin; in that order. Dan and Ephraim are omitted.

The 12 tribes named and the numbers sealed are symbolic, and represent the whole church, of believers of every nationality and race, not a particular ethnic group. Sealing is mentioned by Paul:

Ephesians 1:12-14
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Doug

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #521 on: January 05, 2012, 06:55:51 PM »
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?

CHB

I think God shows up when people call on him.  But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature?  It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?"  The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more.  But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ."  The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not.  It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of.  This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that.  Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in.  The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all.  When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens.  We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.

So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it.  I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in.  Every GOOD THING comes from above.  The things God DOES send are things that induce life.  There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him?  There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live.  That's a whole other thread.

I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.

You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.

CHB

Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move.  And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore.  It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts.  A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire.  The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.

Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom.  It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on  the words already written that brings life to the pages.  And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.

As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms???  You're twisting things around on me.  I never said anything about the removal of a realm.  I did say the reversal, but not the removal.

Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?

Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.

CHB

Yeah, everything comes back to God on one level or another . . .but not all things are "directly" sent by God as many would think.  If I build a house in a flood zone and the river goes out of it's banks and takes my house . . .am I to understand then that God took my house?  Or would it be because those are the consequences from "my" bad choices. I believe of course that God created the heavens AND THE EARTH . . .and I also believe that the earth was made "for" man to inhabit.  But I "don't" believe the earth as we know it now is the same earth that he originally created in the sense that I believe the natural realm was in balance with, but not dominant over the spiritual realm as it is today.  I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself.  I don't see God in this spiritual control room where he has his hands on every lever and is making every decision as to whether to send rain, send drought, send sun, send clouds . . .I believe all of that goes with the original order of how life operates in this realm as he created it.

So when a hurricane hits, I don't believe "God sent it".  I believe God can stop it in response to the prayers of his kids . . .but I think the fact that it happens is just the nature of the realm we live in.

To make it short. The way I see this is. God knows all things from beginning to end. He created ALL things. He made the universe and all that is in it to work the way he planned it from beginning to end. There is no variation on one thing. The moon comes up every night and the stars shine right on schedule because that is the way he planned it. God don't have to sit and watch to see what he needs to do next because it was planned from the beginning.

You are right when you say this. "I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself".  You call it the nature of the realm, I call it "God working all thing after the councel of his will".   Yes, God created this realm to sustain itself, with all of the tornadoes, earthquakes, and everything else that happens within it.

If you build your house in a flood zone,... don't know why a smart guy like you would do that though... except that you were given certain choices and this is what you chose from the choices that God set before you. He gives us choices and all the functions of the body and enviorment cause us to chose what we chose, only thing is we tend to think we are doing it all on our own, when in reality we are not.

You said not all things are directly sent by God and that is true, I believe God created Satan to handle those things that God isn't directly handling. He is working behind the scenes so to speak. Sometimes God works directly and sometimes he works indirectly with man. Think of it like a forman, I don't build your house but I hire someone else to do it for me. There are forces out there that we cannot see.

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #522 on: January 05, 2012, 07:12:09 PM »
Quote from: Doug
In the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.

And, why is Ephraim not mentioned?  Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah.  Ephraim who represents the northern ten tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations.  Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.

Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.

Maybe because he's gone?  The rapture?  The redemption of the body?

Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #523 on: January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM »


This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man

Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim,  formerly known as the Gentile,  the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?




My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile.  The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different?  This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO

Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?

Doug

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #524 on: January 05, 2012, 07:16:30 PM »
Quote from: Doug
In the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.

And, why is Ephraim not mentioned?  Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah.  Ephraim who represents the lost tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations.  Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.

Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.

Maybe because he's gone?  The rapture?  The redemption of the body?

Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9

That won't work, Molly, as the 144,000 are the firstfruits.

"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4]

Doug