Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 52937 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #425 on: December 31, 2011, 05:06:02 PM »
THIS ^^^  [from Cardinal]

[as much as I can understand of it  :laughing7:]

 :cloud9:  ???

You write in a very condensed way, so there is a ton of information condensed into a small space.

I'm never sure I get all of it.

Also, you referenced the two part 'split' pattern being present everywhere in the word, and I'd like to hear more about that.
 
Nevermind. :laughing7:

[What I understood, I agreed with.]
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 05:11:46 PM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #426 on: December 31, 2011, 05:17:42 PM »
THIS ^^^  [from Cardinal]

[as much as I can understand of it  :laughing7:]

 :cloud9:  ???

You write in a very condensed way, so there is a ton of information condensed into a small space.

I'm never sure I get all of it.

Also, you referenced the two part 'split' pattern being present everywhere in the word, and I'd like to hear more about that.
 
Nevermind. :laughing7:

 :cloud9: I know, but I can't help it. It's because He speaks in thoughts that are backed up by scriptures. The thought was "split", followed by rapid correlations with scriptures and scenes in the Word. That's how the Spirit teaches. That's why the single Hebrew words are SO important (I sometimes just read the Hebrew concordance part of my Strong's), because words are condensed thoughts and His thoughts are so much higher (in wisdom), than our thoughts. Even the individual letters are thoughts. The thoughts are like the Rock that has to be split to allow the Spirit to be seen. My  :2c:

And I have to go now, but will try to get back to this later in the day. Blessings.... :HeartThrob:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #427 on: December 31, 2011, 05:30:48 PM »
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;

the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually

the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)

after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace

thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in)   :2c:

I agree.

On the item: "the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry," Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." [Romans 15:8]

He continues to confirm the promises to the church, those who Paul said have been "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands." [Colossians 2:11]

IMO this fulfills the 70th week of Daniel 9:27, which says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The first half-week was his earthly ministry, and the last half-week is the whole age of the church.

Doug

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #428 on: December 31, 2011, 05:43:51 PM »
Quote from: ww
That's what grafted in means.
But grafted in also means there is only one tribe because all people will become one big new tree.

No

He's not grafting a pear tree to a plum tree.

He's grafting a wild olive tree to a cultuvated olive tree, but they are both the same tree.

House of Israel=Gentiles=wild olive tree.
Wild and cultivated are diffrent too.
Besides of that it doesn't explain why the menorah is a hybrid tree.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #429 on: December 31, 2011, 05:45:39 PM »
:cloud9: PS. @ WW.....there were 5 of the 6 branches on the mount. The last branch is being added now. He is the same yesterday (Moses and Elijah), today (3 disciples), and tomorrow (last generation). There were 7 lights, ie. 7 thousand year days (the 7th one is Christ, the Spirit day of the Lord that is no part darkness) are being completed. Christ in us is the light set upon a hill (Mt. Zion) for THIS generation. Blessings.....
I have no clue what your are talking about.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #430 on: December 31, 2011, 06:14:25 PM »
Quote from: Doug
That reasoning is quite similar to arguments employed by Christian Zionists, dispensationalists, and Messianic Jews, who deny that the church is the true Israel, and their approach tends to ignore or discount what Jesus said, and what Paul said on the matter

No, I'm saying the church is the true Israel.  And, that all those things that Paul describes were in the Covenant made to the house of Israel in Jer 31.

I'm saying the story is almost complete.

Many people have missed the significance of the following prophecy, where Isaiah said, referring to Judah and Jerusalem, the mountain of the LORD's house will be "established in the top of the mountains," and "exalted above the hills.":

Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


This implies that the people of God will be displaced vertically. I believe this was fulfilled, in part, when Jesus ascended to heaven, as described in Acts 1, and it occurs continuously, when people repent, and when they are born from above, of the Spirit of God. In spirit, they are raised up; Paul said that "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"  [Ephesians 2:4-6]

The saints being raised up together to sit in heavenly places is spiritual, and this is how Judah and Jerusalem are raised up, higher than all the hills and mountains of the earth, to heaven, as Isaiah foretold. Several prophecies identify the people of God with Israel, and Israel with Judah, and Judah with Jerusalem, and Jerusalem with the tabernacle of David, and with mount Zion, and the temple.

Thus, Paul referred to the church as "the Jerusalem which is above," [Galatians 4:26] and "heavenly Jerusalem," and mount Sion, or Zion. [Hebrews 12:22]

Considering many OT prophecies in the light of Isaiah 2:1-3 provides a very different, and enlightening perspective on things, IMO.

Doug

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #431 on: December 31, 2011, 07:57:15 PM »
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;

the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually

the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)

after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace

thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in)   :2c:

I agree.

On the item: "the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry," Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." [Romans 15:8]

He continues to confirm the promises to the church, those who Paul said have been "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands." [Colossians 2:11]

IMO this fulfills the 70th week of Daniel 9:27, which says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The first half-week was his earthly ministry, and the last half-week is the whole age of the church.

Doug

Interesting, the Colossians connection and the Daniel suggestion...more to think about on the Daniel one.

I also thought this morning, "He came to His own, and His own received Him not".   It was the Jews who didn't believe (received Him not) while for the past 2000 years it has been the Gentiles believing (receiving Him).   So to me, 'He came to His own and they received Him not' seems one more clue as to who the lost sheep of the House of Israel were/are.    :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #432 on: December 31, 2011, 09:58:46 PM »
I thought these articles might be of help.



Just Who Is an Israelite Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p041001.htm


Who Are the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p900703.htm

CHB

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #433 on: December 31, 2011, 10:06:36 PM »
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;

the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually

the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)

after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace

thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in)   :2c:

I agree with this but I think there is more to the whole thing that Paul came to see but was prevented from teaching it.

CHB   

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #434 on: January 01, 2012, 03:04:00 AM »
I thought these articles might be of help.



Just Who Is an Israelite Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p041001.htm


Who Are the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p900703.htm

CHB


CHB  I read the first link.  Usually I like this guy's writing, but he seems to have an agenda here.

He starts off by saying James is writing to the real 12 tribes who are worshipping in synogogues around the world, in touch with the Temple in Jerusalem.

Well, first of all, James is writing as a Christian, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

At no time does the Temple acknowledge a persona known as 'the Lord Jesus Christ.'  Any synogogue in touch with the Temple would have put James letter in the trash.

Those who remained Jews rejected Jesus.  So who is James really writing to?  He's writing to Christians.

I guess we could debate whether those Christians are converted 'Jews' or whether he's calling Christians the twelve tribes.

But elm himself admits most of the real twelve tribes did not return.

Then he ignores the prophecy that God will write his laws on the hearts of the house of Israel.  Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'

He ignores the prophecy that circumcision is of the heart.   Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'

He ignrores the prophecy that the house of Israel will become a multitude of nations that is  more numerous than the sands of the sea--the birthright promise handed down from Abraham to Ephraim.

And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. Heb 11:12

What does Paul tell us?  This prophecy applies to the Christian 'gentiles.'

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.  Gal 3:7

Elm thinks this prophecy applies to the handful of Jews still existent in the world.

So overall, I give elm a D- for this article.  Maybe somebody paid him to write it.



At JAB, Jesus did come to his own and his own rejected him--Jesus was tribe of Judah.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1


Compare John 1:12,13 with this prophecy from Hosea 1


10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 03:21:15 AM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #435 on: January 01, 2012, 06:43:15 PM »
I thought these articles might be of help.



Just Who Is an Israelite Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p041001.htm


Who Are the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p900703.htm

CHB


CHB  I read the first link.  Usually I like this guy's writing, but he seems to have an agenda here.

He starts off by saying James is writing to the real 12 tribes who are worshipping in synogogues around the world, in touch with the Temple in Jerusalem.

Well, first of all, James is writing as a Christian, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

James was an apostle to the Israelites, never to Gentiles. They all were except Paul and even Paul taught the Jew's in the beginning.


Quote from: Molly
At no time does the Temple acknowledge a persona known as 'the Lord Jesus Christ.'  Any synogogue in touch with the Temple would have put James letter in the trash.

What about James 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH. The word Church means ekklesia or assembly, so they were meeting somewhere.

Quote from: Molly
Those who remained Jews rejected Jesus.  So who is James really writing to?  He's writing to Christians.

I guess we could debate whether those Christians are converted 'Jews' or whether he's calling Christians the twelve tribes.

I would say those were converted Jew's and I believe this is what ELM is saying also.

Quote from: Molly
But elm himself admits most of the real twelve tribes did not return.

Then he ignores the prophecy that God will write his laws on the hearts of the house of Israel.  Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'

He ignores the prophecy that circumcision is of the heart.   Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'

He ignrores the prophecy that the house of Israel will become a multitude of nations that is  more numerous than the sands of the sea--the birthright promise handed down from Abraham to Ephraim.

It is Israel that God is speaking of when he says he will write the laws on their hearts. ELM believes this because I have read most of his articles. It isn't talking about Gentiles when he says I will write the laws on their hearts.

Quote from: Molly
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. Heb 11:12

What does Paul tell us?  This prophecy applies to the Christian 'gentiles.'

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.  Gal 3:7

Elm thinks this prophecy applies to the handful of Jews still existent in the world.

It is the Jew's and not Gentiles that is spoken of here.

Quote from: Molly
So overall, I give elm a D- for this article.  Maybe somebody paid him to write it.

You certainly have the right to your own opinion and I respect that.


Quote from: Molly
At JAB, Jesus did come to his own and his own rejected him--Jesus was tribe of Judah.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1


Compare John 1:12,13 with this prophecy from Hosea 1


10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God

I don't see the connection.

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #436 on: January 01, 2012, 07:01:52 PM »
Quote from: CHB
It is the Jew's and not Gentiles that is spoken of here.

Quote from: Molly
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. Heb 11:12

What does Paul tell us? This prophecy applies to the Christian 'gentiles.'

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. Gal 3:7

Elm thinks this prophecy applies to the handful of Jews still existent in the world.

So it is the Jews who have the faith Paul is speaking about and it is the Jews who have become numerous as the stars in the sky and countless as the sand on the seashore?

Where are they all hiding?



 The worldwide Jewish population is 13.3 million Jews. Jewish population growth worldwide is close to zero percent. From 2000 to 2001 it rose 0.3%, compared to worldwide population growth of 1.4%.

In 2001, 8.3 million Jews lived in the Diaspora and 4.9 million lived in Israel. Just about half of the world's Jews reside in the Americas, with about 46 percent in North America. (top)

Approximately 37% of worldwide Jewry lives in Israel. Israel's Jewish population rose by 1.6% the past year, while the Diaspora population dropped by 0.5%.

Europe, including the Asian territories of the Russian Republic and Turkey, accounts for about 12 percent of the total. Fewer than 2 percent of the world's Jews live in Africa and Oceania.

Metropolitan Tel Aviv, with 2.5 million Jews, is the world's largest Jewish city. It is followed by New York, with 1.9 million, Haifa 655,000, Los Angeles 621,000, Jerusalem 570,000, and southeast Florida 514,000.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm



13 million Jews versus 2.2 billion Christians who also claim Abraham as their father--which group are these verses talking about?
I thought Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles.


Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did.

--John 8:39

« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 07:41:00 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #437 on: January 01, 2012, 07:33:47 PM »
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him--till seven times?'
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

70x7 = 70 weeks?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #438 on: January 01, 2012, 08:01:07 PM »

...

Well, first of all, James is writing as a Christian, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

James was an apostle to the Israelites, never to Gentiles. They all were except Paul and even Paul taught the Jew's in the beginning.


All the disciples were commissioned by Jesus to preach the Gospel to "all nations." In Matthew's account:

Matthew 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Also in Mark:

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Matthew also reported Jesus saying the gospel would be preached in all the world, and to all nations. How was that supposed to happen, if they only preached to Jews?

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And, John addressed his Apocalypse to the seven churches in Asia.

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

How could anyone get the idea from reading these scriptures that only Paul preached to, or wrote to the Gentiles?

John also seems to have accompanied Paul on one of his missionary journeys. [Acts 13:5, 13]

In James 1:1, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" refers to the church. The people of God are those who believe in Christ, and James called them the "twelve tribes," as they are the true Israel. They were "scattered" in those days because of persecution.

Doug


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #439 on: January 01, 2012, 08:34:15 PM »
Quote from: Doug
In James 1:1, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" refers to the church. The people of God are those who believe in Christ, and James called them the "twelve tribes," as they are the true Israel. They were "scattered" in those days because of persecution.

 :thumbsup:

I'm thinking the place where we disagree is that I believe the Christians really are the lost tribes of the house of Israel, whereas you are seeing it more in a metaphorical sense.

Paul tells us that when the rejecting Jews are brought in, who are loved on account of their fathers--then--all Israel will be saved.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence. Rom 11:29

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #440 on: January 01, 2012, 08:43:02 PM »
...

It is Israel that God is speaking of when he says he will write the laws on their hearts. ELM believes this because I have read most of his articles. It isn't talking about Gentiles when he says I will write the laws on their hearts.


The truth about the Israel that God is speaking of, and what ELM believed and wrote in his articles, might be two quite different things.

Isaiah wrote, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." [Isa. 2:2-3]

Could this be describing how God will "write His laws on their hearts"? Who does Isaiah say will learn his ways, and walk in his paths? Isaiah is speaking of "all nations" here, not just Israel, or the Jews. They "flow" unto the mountain of the LORD's house, which represents the church, and the kingdom of God, which is established "above the hills." In the New Testament, Jerusalem is said to be "in heaven." It has been "raised up," as Isaiah foretold, above every hill and mountain. This happened, I think, when Jesus ascended to heaven. And nations "flow" to the heavenly city. Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." [John 12:32] So believers from out of the nations are drawn to Jesus, and his holy city, where he reigns as King, upon the throne of David. They are thus "made nigh by the blood of Christ" to "the commonwealth of Israel," and "the covenants of promise." [Ephesians 2:12] This includes the New Covenant, Hebrews 8:8-10.

Doug

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #441 on: January 01, 2012, 09:33:13 PM »
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him--till seven times?'
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

70x7 = 70 weeks?

I was thinking this a few weeks ago. The lord could have put in a clue as to the time of his coming, or the time of his wrath, when his patience comes to an end.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #442 on: January 01, 2012, 10:22:45 PM »
Quote from: Doug
In James 1:1, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" refers to the church. The people of God are those who believe in Christ, and James called them the "twelve tribes," as they are the true Israel. They were "scattered" in those days because of persecution.

 :thumbsup:

I'm thinking the place where we disagree is that I believe the Christians really are the lost tribes of the house of Israel, whereas you are seeing it more in a metaphorical sense.

Paul tells us that when the rejecting Jews are brought in, who are loved on account of their fathers--then--all Israel will be saved.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence. Rom 11:29

Yes I do think that the church is Israel in a spiritual or metaphorical sense.

In Romans 11, Paul says, "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for." [vs. 7] In your interpretation, that says that the Christians were "the lost tribes of the house of Israel," shouldn't Paul have said this only about "the tribe of Judah"? But he says "Israel." How does your interpretation explain it?

The apostle Peter wrote,

1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


How could he refer to them as previously "not a people," if in reality, they were the ten tribes of Israel? I think it seems more reasonable to conclude that Peter wrote to people who had come out of various nations, and had became "an holy nation, a peculiar people" spiritually, though their shared faith in Christ.

Doug

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #443 on: January 02, 2012, 12:33:37 AM »
Gentiles Must Become Israelites

If a person wishes to know just what Gospel of Christ belongs to mature Christians today, no chapter is more important to understand than the one we now enter. Certain terms have to be met. It is imperative that we realize that the terms of salvation were when the apostle Peter began to preach the Gospel of Christ on that first Pentecost day after Christ's resurrection from the dead. That message of Peter was fundamentally different from the teaching Christ gave to the Israelites while He was in the flesh.

Peter stated that believing on Christ and in His mission (of dying for humans in their place) would gain a salvation for everyone. Yes, it was now for everyone who would repent of their sins and believe on the name and authority of Jesus Christ to forgive sins. Christ would then give salvation to those believers. Peter said:

"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'"

Acts 2:38

A short time later he said,

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Acts 4:12

What is important to realize is that Peter directed the words of his preaching to the Israelites who listened to him teach. He said,

"You men of Israel, hear these words; ... Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Acts 2:22, 36

At first, this teaching of the Gospel went to Israelites alone (just as Christ Himself directed His teaching while in the flesh to the House of Israel). In this early period, there was no thought by the apostles that Gentiles would be included in the salvation that now became available in Christ. Indeed, the messages of the Gospel both by Christ while in the flesh, and by Peter and the other apostles in the first few years of their ministry, were given solely to those in the House of Israel, who were reckoned by the world as being "Jews."

Now my next statement may be a shock to some people. But all should take it seriously for the statement is absolutely true. It is this. In the first 33 years of teaching the Gospel of Christ Jesus about His death and resurrection now being able to bring people to salvation, that salvation in Christ was ONLY given to people who were of the House of Israel.

Jews within the Roman and Parthian Empires who lived at the time were certainly of the tribe of Judah who were a part of the House of Israel. It meant that salvation could be given to them, but it could not be given to Gentiles IF THEY REMAINED GENTILES! In the 33 years of time that elapsed from Christ's crucifixion in 30 to 63 C.E., it was necessary for all Gentiles who were saved in Christ to become spiritual Israelites. The New Covenant relationship with God was given only to those who were members of the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jeremiah 31:3134). Note what the clear word of God states:

"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Jeremiah 31:3134

As clear as God could make it, the New Covenant was to be made only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is not one mention in this New Covenant relationship about participation of Gentiles who were not Israelites. And what did this lack of mention concerning Gentiles mean to the apostle Paul? He made it clear that salvation in Christ could only be given to the children of Israel and no other nation. Note what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2:

"Wherefore remember [you Gentiles], that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise [both Old and New Covenants], having no hope, and without God in the world."

Ephesians 2:1112

Paul made it clear in the above statement, which was absolutely true and accurate, that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles, there was not a hope in the world for them to gain a salvation in Christ. They were those "having no hope." Remember, the Old and New Covenants were made only with the House of Israel and if one was not an Israelite then such persons were "strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world." This was a terrible plight for Gentiles to be in, but this was their fate. Simply put, Gentiles could not be saved.

However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites. And Paul, in the four epistles to the first three ekklesias (the congregations in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians) taught that all Gentiles who accepted Christ as their personal Savior were now reckoned to be "in Christ" (Romans 12:5, 16:7, 910; 1 Corinthians 3:1, 15:22; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 3:14, 5:17; Galatians 3:27). Putting Gentiles "in Christ" gave them an advantage they had not realized before. Since Christ was clearly reckoned in a legal sense to be from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob's name was changed to Israel), then Gentiles now attached to Christ were no longer acknowledged as "Gentiles" in a spiritual sense. They had now become "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).

"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs [along with Israelites] according to the promise."

Galatians 3:2629

Similarly, Paul said in Romans 11:1336 that the Gentiles being "in Christ" (and Christ was an Israelite in whom there was no guile and a legitimate son of Abraham) made them also to be children of Abraham and Israel as was Christ or any natural born Israelite. And since it was clearly understood by Paul that "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), this of necessity included the Gentiles who accepted Christ and were grafted into Israel. Thus, these Gentile converts were no longer reckoned as Gentiles. They were now "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).

This was how the Gentiles could become partakers of all promises and covenants that pertained to the Israelites. This grafting into the stock of Israel made them able to be heirs of the New Covenant relationship that God was making only with Israel.

A Major Problem Developed with this Concept
While this spiritual teaching that Gentiles were now "in Christ" denominated them as being Israel along with the other Israelites, a question quickly arose concerning the required conduct of these new Israelites. Should they be circumcised as were ordinary Israelites? Should they keep the days, times, seasons, and years that all Jews observed and rejoiced in? Should these new "Israelites" be required to eat the clean foods found in Leviticus chapter 11?

Some Christian authorities, especially those in Jerusalem, felt that if the Gentiles were now going to be acknowledged as "Israelites," then it was only common sense they should adopt the same customs as the Jews. This included circumcision, Sabbath, and holyday keeping, the clean food laws, etc. This matter had to be worked out and we find much argument about it in the Books of Acts and Galatians (along with Second Corinthians chapters 11 and 12). In other words, should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") keep the Law of God revealed in the Old Testament and sustained by Christ while teaching in the flesh, or could the Gentiles be given some kind of special relationship different from ordinary Jews? This was the dilemma. What laws and customs should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") observe?

Before we look at this problem in detail, let us note a fact that many Christians are not aware of and this includes some Christian theologians.

Jews Did Not Need to Keep Parts of the Law in Gentile Areas
It is normally not understood (even by Christian theologians who desire to keep and observe the Law of God ordained in the Old Testament) that the Jews themselves knew they were exempt from keeping certain Laws of God that pertained only to Israelites residing in the Land of Israel (the Land of Canaan). Do you know that the law of TITHING applied only to Jews who lived in the Land of Israel, or in heavily populated areas of Jews around Palestine? Only products from "Israel" were tithable! That's right. Only products from the land of Israel could be tithed.

"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord."

Leviticus 27:30

Notice the major point about this tithing instruction. It said "All the tithe of the land is the Lord's" This Hebrew word rendered "land" is aretz. At times the word can mean the earth (Genesis 1:1). At other times it is used in regard to a specific land or country (Exodus 3:8, 17). Many times the term, as used in Leviticus 27:30, refers specifically to the land of Israel in Palestine. See Leviticus 19:23, 20:2, 25:10, 18, 26:32. As the Gentile nations were not given tithing laws, and Levites were not instructed to go to the Gentiles and take tithe from them, the term "the land" in Leviticus 27:30 really refers to the Land of Israel. Even for the Jews, tithing was limited only to the Land of Israel and adjacent areas. The Jewish people themselves did not TITHE in foreign lands.


CHB


Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #444 on: January 02, 2012, 12:34:06 AM »
George Foot Moore, in his work Judaism (one of the recognized authorities on Jewish religion in the time of Christ) had the following to say about the laws of tithing in Leviticus chapter 27:

"All of these applied in the letter of the law only to the land of Israel, however, at any time its boundaries might be defined." 1

Professor Moore went on to point out that the land of Babylon was finally accepted as part of the land of Israel a "tithable" land because so many Jews were resident in the area. Egypt was finally accepted as a tithable land. In the earlier time of Joseph, however, Egypt did not pay tithe as shown by the one-fifth produce that was paid to Pharaoh and the four-fifths that went to the people. The lands east of Jordan came to be acknowledged as tithable: Ammon, Moab, and Syria at least the parts of those lands that David conquered and where many Jews came to live.

Other Gentile lands, on the other hand, such as areas of Asia Minor, Greece, or Italy were not allowed as lands that could produce tithe. The produce of those lands were considered as being impure and not holy enough to support the Levitical priesthood in its function at the Temple. As Alfred Edersheim records, even the very dust of heathen lands was reckoned as defiled and polluted. 2 This is why the tithe was not acceptable from them even though Jews lived in those areas.

In any rate, the strict reading of the law demanded the tithe come only from the land of Israel which was later interpreted to include those areas east and north of Palestine and Egypt where populations were mainly Jewish. All other areas were proscribed.

This fact about tithing may surprise many Christians, but it is revealed in the Law of God. Many preachers and evangelists know this truth, but fail to tell the laity about it simply because they believe the people could not fund their churches if they were privy to these facts. Guided strictly by the statements of biblical law, it is improper even for Jews to pay tithe on products from Italy, Greece, Asia Minor (Galatia), or in modern times the United States, Britain, or other Gentile lands. See my book The Tithing Dilemma. 3

So, in the Books of Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians the questions of Gentiles tithing never came up because even Jews who lived in those areas did not tithe. Also, the keeping of Sabbatical Years every seventh year, when all agricultural lands had to be idle and not be worked, was not applied even by Jews themselves outside the Land of Israel. Note that Moses told the Israelites to keep Sabbatical Years "when you come into the land which I give you"  (Leviticus 25:2). One can imagine how alarmed the apostle Paul was when he found out Galatian Gentiles were observing even the "years" of the Law in the Old Testament (Galatians 4:10). Paul is certainly referring to Sabbatical Years.

Some Law Universally Applied to All Jews
While many laws in the Old Testament were not applicable outside of Palestine (even for Jews), the law of the Sabbath day itself, the food laws and especially circumcision applied to Jews everywhere! It was these universal laws that the early apostles had to deal with in regard to Gentiles who had become "Israelites" by their spiritual attachment to Christ. Should they be required to be circumcised as all Israelites? Should they keep the Sabbath and Holy days like other Jews? Should they keep the food laws, as do the Jews?

It did not take long to settle the issue, but not without major struggles within the Jewish community of Christians. The authorities in Jerusalem finally decided (with the top apostles in quorum), with the intervention of the Holy Spirit, that only four major things were required of these new and adopted "Israelites." They could be released from the onerous burden that ordinary Jews (Israelites) were accustomed to observe. The four restrictions are found in Acts 15:2829. 4 Paul later referred to this same document (see original Greek in Colossians 2:14). Let us notice that this "handwriting" decreed.

"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you [Gentiles who were now "Israelites"] no greater burden than these necessary things; That you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication [promiscuousness]: from which if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Fare you well."

Acts 15:2829

Note that keeping of weekly or annual Sabbaths was not reckoned by the Holy Spirit or the apostles assembled at Jerusalem as necessary for Gentiles who were acknowledged as spiritual "Israelites." And too, circumcision in the flesh was not demanded of the men (adults or children). Although meats offered directly to idols and strangled animals were prohibited, other meats that the Gentiles were accustomed to eating were not proscribed and they could eat from the shambles. 5 In fact, God meant the prohibition of certain meats in the Law of Moses as strictly for ritualistic purposes, not for heath reasons, because even a knife or fork touching an "unclean" carcase had to be destroyed even if the utensils were washed in lye soap (Leviticus 11:35). There is not a hint in the Bible that "unclean" meats were meant by God to be avoided for health reasons; and Jews have long known this. 6

Nevertheless some die-hard "law-keepers" among Jewish Christians felt these new "Israelites" should live almost precisely as did the Jews. Some Christians in Rome began to keep certain days of the Jews (no doubt including the Sabbath and holy days along with certain fast days) and Paul had to tell the Roman Christians it was not necessary to keep those days, or for that matter, any days (Romans 14:56). Paul was downright upset with the Galatians when they not only retreated into keeping the Law of God meant for minors, such as keeping days, months, and times, but also were starting to keep Sabbaticals Years. Why, not even the Jews in Galatia were required to keep those teachings of the Law (Galatians 4:10).

These matters were constant problems encountered when Gentile Christians came in contact with Jewish Christians. Paul had to inform the Colossians,

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat [eating], or in drink [drinking], or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Colossians 2:16

What these biblical facts show is that God reckoned two types of Israelites on earth. The first were Israelites of the flesh who accepted Christ and the others were newly adopted "Israelites" who were Gentiles in the flesh but now called the "Israel of God" because of being "in Christ." The Gentiles reckoned as Israelites were given duties far less stringent than ordinary Israelites (Jews).

Still, no matter in what segment of "Israel" people found themselves, all were acknowledged by God the Father as "Israelites." They could all now be part of the New Covenant promises. 7 Gentiles could now partake of the emblems of bread and wine established when Christ put the New Covenant into action on the eve of His crucifixion. This was the final teaching of the basic "New Covenant" type of Christianity that one finds in all the early books written by the apostles.

The Revelation of the Mystery
But in 63 C.E., something very different occurred. A brand new revelation came to Paul and other apostles that drastically changed even this "New Covenant type" of Christianity in which all Christians were reckoned as "Israelites." In the next chapter I discuss this most important aspect of Christian doctrine. The apostle Paul called it,

"The mystery of Christ that in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as [the Spirit] now reveals it unto his holy apostles and prophets ... which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God."

Ephesians 3:45, 9, paraphrasing

"The mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints."

Colossians 1:26

The apostles only learned this new revelation in the year 63 C.E. This Mystery was never revealed publicly before that year some 33 years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. This glorious teaching represents the mature and final teaching of God and Christ to this world. And, believe it or not, "the Mystery" has nothing to do with the Old Covenant or even the New Covenant. It is something entirely different and glorious!

The Mystery Is a Very Different Teaching
It may be a surprise that anyone would state that "the Mystery" was far different from the teachings of the New Covenant, but this is precisely what the truth of the Gospel is. The final stage of Progressive Revelation was to introduce the most mature doctrines of Christ Jesus, in what Paul called "the Mystery."

I will show in the clearest of language (and it is most important for us to understand) just what "the Mystery" entails and what its grand and glorious promises are. For the present, it is essential that we know the time in history when this new revelation was first given to mankind. The mature doctrines of "the Mystery" came as a revelation to the apostle Paul (and others) about the year 63 C.E. while he was in Spain, probably in the city of Cadiz. All the apostles who received it were surprised at what its teachings actually contained. When one analyzes the differences between the former teaching of the New Covenant with that of "the Mystery," it is amazing just how advanced and profound the improvements are. The most important topic of this book is about the grand and glorious teaching of Christ known as "the Mystery."

This mature teaching is "the Philosophy of Christianity" and it is summed up in what the apostle Paul called "the Mystery" (or, in plain English, "the Secret"). It denotes a marvelous and gracious Secret that was finally dispensed to mankind by Paul and others in the latter part of their ministries. And in spite of what some theologians say, that philosophy has NOTHING to do with the New Covenant. The "Old" and the "New Covenant" were only intermediate phases of spiritual development. They were excellent for their intended time periods, but they do NOT represent the ultimate mature teaching of God. One should look at the plain and simple New Testament teaching called "the Mystery." God teaches this fact primarily in the books to the Ephesians and Colossians. These books are companion letters. They speak about identical matters with different emphasis.

Their main subject is "the Mystery" (Ephesians 3:3), or "the Secret." The legal principle it reveals is defined as being:

"the Mystery of Christ" (verse 4);
"the Mystery of His Will" (1:9);
"the Great Mystery" (5:32 as it is in Greek); or
"the Mystery of God, Christ" (Colossians 2:2) 

Before 63 C.E., Paul said the Mystery "has been hid in God" (Ephesians 3:9). God had kept it a secret from the knowledge of anyone (human or angel) even from the foundation of the world long before the creation of Adam. Paul said, "from the beginning of the world it [the Mystery] has been hid in God" (verse 9). Paul spoke of it as:

"The mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

Ephesians 3:45

Paul further stated in the Book of Colossians that this teaching was called

"... the mystery which has been hid from [previous] ages and from [previous] generations, but NOW [63 C.E.] is made manifest to his saints."

Colossians 1:26

This mystery clearly explains what the real Philosophy of Christianity is all about. It is a teaching that is awesome in scope. ELM

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #445 on: January 02, 2012, 12:47:14 AM »
Gentiles Must Become Israelites



Peter stated that believing on Christ and in His mission (of dying for humans in their place) would gain a salvation for everyone. Yes, it was now for everyone who would repent of their sins and believe on the name and authority of Jesus Christ to forgive sins. Christ would then give salvation to those believers. Peter said:

"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'"

Acts 2:38

A short time later he said,

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."


However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites.
CHB

Good article   :thumbsup: 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 02:16:14 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #446 on: January 02, 2012, 02:10:25 AM »
Quote from: CHB
It may be a surprise that anyone would state that "the Mystery" was far different from the teachings of the New Covenant, but this is precisely what the truth of the Gospel is. The final stage of Progressive Revelation was to introduce the most mature doctrines of Christ Jesus, in what Paul called "the Mystery."

I would say the mystery is a part of the New Covenant.  It's not a new idea that Paul cooked up in 63 a.d.  Maybe that was when it was revealed to him, or more likely, when he decided to reveal it to others,  but it is presented as part of the New Covenant in the Old Testament.

   God describes it here--

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; Jer 31:33

and here--

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

and here--

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


In Eze 44:7  God uses the phrase uncircumcised in heart...



Paul wasn't making this stuff up.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #447 on: January 02, 2012, 03:09:00 AM »
Quote from: CHB
It may be a surprise that anyone would state that "the Mystery" was far different from the teachings of the New Covenant, but this is precisely what the truth of the Gospel is. The final stage of Progressive Revelation was to introduce the most mature doctrines of Christ Jesus, in what Paul called "the Mystery."

I would say the mystery is a part of the New Covenant.  It's not a new idea that Paul cooked up in 63 a.d.  Maybe that was when it was revealed to him, or more likely, when he decided to reveal it to others,  but it is presented as part of the New Covenant in the Old Testament.

   God describes it here--

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; Jer 31:33

and here--

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

and here--

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


In Eze 44:7  God uses the phrase uncircumcised in heart...



Paul wasn't making this stuff up.

 :thumbsup:

IMO the things Paul said in Ephesians 2:4-7 about God having "raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" were foretold in Isaiah 2:1-3. None of this "replaces" the New Covenant, or means that it has become obsolete.   

Here is the link to the book.

The article posted was chapter 5.

Doug
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 03:17:11 AM by Doug »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #448 on: January 02, 2012, 10:17:06 PM »

[Quoting Ernest L. Martin]

Jews Did Not Need to Keep Parts of the Law in Gentile Areas
It is normally not understood (even by Christian theologians who desire to keep and observe the Law of God ordained in the Old Testament) that the Jews themselves knew they were exempt from keeping certain Laws of God that pertained only to Israelites residing in the Land of Israel (the Land of Canaan). Do you know that the law of TITHING applied only to Jews who lived in the Land of Israel, or in heavily populated areas of Jews around Palestine? Only products from "Israel" were tithable! That's right. Only products from the land of Israel could be tithed.

"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord."

Leviticus 27:30

Notice the major point about this tithing instruction. It said "All the tithe of the land is the Lord's" This Hebrew word rendered "land" is aretz. At times the word can mean the earth (Genesis 1:1). At other times it is used in regard to a specific land or country (Exodus 3:8, 17). Many times the term, as used in Leviticus 27:30, refers specifically to the land of Israel in Palestine. See Leviticus 19:23, 20:2, 25:10, 18, 26:32. As the Gentile nations were not given tithing laws, and Levites were not instructed to go to the Gentiles and take tithe from them, the term "the land" in Leviticus 27:30 really refers to the Land of Israel. Even for the Jews, tithing was limited only to the Land of Israel and adjacent areas. The Jewish people themselves did not TITHE in foreign lands.


CHB

This point, that "aretz" which is translated "earth" can also mean "land" seems to have escaped Dr. Martin when he read Isaiah 24:1, where most translations have "earth," but Young's Literal Translation puts "land." In 1993, Martin suggested that Isaiah's prophecy foretold "Doomsday," a devastating collision between the earth and a mile-wide asteroid or comet, in an article on The Destruction of the World in Prophecy. Martin wrote:

It may come as a surprise to some people but the Holy Scriptures describe a time associated with the Second Advent of Christ that any modern day scientist would attest is a classic description of an asteroid or comet of a moderate size (say a mile or so in diameter) hitting the earth. After mentioning that the mercantile system on earth that provides wealth and prosperity is to be destroyed (read all of Isaiah 23 along with the future prophecies in the Book of Revelation about the same thing Revelation 18:11-17), the prophet Isaiah continued his description of "Doomsday" by his prophecy recorded in all of Isaiah chapter 24. You should read that chapter and pay attention to every word. It shows, without the slightest doubt, the complete and utter destruction of world civilization. The world will return to a barbaric state with only a few men left over the entirety of the earth, and the wide devastation will last for 70 years (Isaiah 23:17,18).

Young's Literal Translation gives for Isaiah 24:1, 5 & 6:
1. Lo, Jehovah is emptying the land, And is making it waste, And hath overturned it on its face, And hath scattered its inhabitants.
5. And the land hath been defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed laws, They have changed a statute, They have made void a covenant age-during.
6. Therefore a curse hath consumed the land, And the inhabitants in it are become desolate, Therefore consumed have been inhabitants of the land, And few men have been left.

This is quite different to the KJV and most other translations where "earth" is used in all cases instead of land. The "land" can be understood spiritually, and its interpretation is suggested in Hebrews 11:16. It represents the eternal, spiritual things promised to the church. Hebrews 3 and 4 indicate that possessing the "land" promised to the believer is something that involves belief. And, as in the case of the Israelites in the wilderness, faith is required in order for us to possess the things that the land represents. This seems to identify the "land," which is a central theme in the OT, with understanding the revelations of God contained in the Scriptures, and perhaps with other similar things that are spiritual in nature.

For an alternative interpretation of the above verses in Isaiah 24, that negates and discredits Martin's Doomsday prediction, see this post.

Doug

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #449 on: January 03, 2012, 01:48:05 AM »
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans. 

I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.

CHB