Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 59927 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #400 on: December 31, 2011, 11:18:59 AM »
Yes, I believe He's definitely making a distinction (and acting accordingly) between Jews and Gentiles.  Even not being "mean" about it, I believe He's still saying "the children are on the inside, the dogs [little dogs/puppies, whatever] (heathens/Gentiles) are on the outside.  Seems to me the cross then changed that - for now.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #401 on: December 31, 2011, 11:22:02 AM »
back to this particular passage and my original question;  any thoughts on how this fits?  that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?
The man that breaks the bread is both mater to the children and the dogs. The dogs mentioned here are not wild dogs but house-dogs.

Yes, I've read that.  It's not as big of an "insult"  :laughing7: as it sounds on the surface. 

However...and I'm glad you responded, maybe you have a viewpoint on this particular thing.  How do you think it fits this whole discussion Tony regarding who are Jews and Gentiles and who's the lost sheep of house of Israel,
I tried but I can't explain it so I just gave you a few links. Alfred Edersheim was a orthodox Jew that converted to Christianity and became a pastor or rev.
Jesus spoke from a Jewish perspective and to understand that knowing a bit about their culture might help.
Also remember He called His own mother a dog.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #402 on: December 31, 2011, 11:23:48 AM »
I'll look at your links, maybe there's some info there about my question...
Stop reading because you'll find something you don't like  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #403 on: December 31, 2011, 11:26:57 AM »
Yes, I believe He's definitely making a distinction (and acting accordingly) between Jews and Gentiles.  Even not being "mean" about it, I believe He's still saying "the children are on the inside, the dogs [little dogs/puppies, whatever] (heathens/Gentiles) are on the outside.  Seems to me the cross then changed that - for now.
I disagree. The cross changed nothing for the dogs.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #404 on: December 31, 2011, 11:31:03 AM »
Yes, I believe He's definitely making a distinction (and acting accordingly) between Jews and Gentiles.  Even not being "mean" about it, I believe He's still saying "the children are on the inside, the dogs [little dogs/puppies, whatever] (heathens/Gentiles) are on the outside.  Seems to me the cross then changed that - for now.
I disagree. The cross changed nothing for the dogs.

What do you mean?  IF - IF He was calling Gentiles dogs, i.e., outsiders (and I believe He was) then post-cross the Gospel went to the Gentiles while the Jewish nation (as a whole) are blinded for this age.    So in that case, the cross meant the dogs (Gentiles) could be saved.

but maybe you mean something else by 'dogs'.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #405 on: December 31, 2011, 11:42:07 AM »
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;

the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually

the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)

after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace

thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in)   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #406 on: December 31, 2011, 11:43:04 AM »
In the mind of the Jews there are only 2 types of people. Jews and dogs. Gentile=dog.

(Rev 22:14) Happy are they who wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
(Rev 22:15) without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.

Doesn't that say only Jews live inside the city?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #407 on: December 31, 2011, 12:00:19 PM »
I'd have to research that more, but I don't think the dogs in that scripture can mean the Gentiles who are saved...they have become part of spiritual Israel.   :scratchhead:

Looking at the whole thing, as CHB said earlier, through my glass darkly, I don't see this whole Jew/Gentile/lost tribes thing as much literal/geographical, as I do spiritual at this point.  Not saying the literal has nothing to do with it, but I'm personally thinking not all,

What if clear lines can't be drawn between who's now part of a certain "tribe" or not, and whether that totally makes them Jew or Gentile?  Aren't most people in Israel right now not the original inhabitants, per their lineage, that would have been originally considered the Children of Israel?  I think finding a "pure lineage" right now would be difficult, but I may be mistaken.  As I said, the history part of it is not a strong point for me.  However, my point is, they practice the Jewish religion and still await the Messiah - not seeing that He has come.

Another group ("I have other sheep not of this pasture that I must also bring in") could be talking about all the others - the rest of God's children who are currently "heathens" in all other parts of the world, many never having even heard His name or who have been so brainwashed by their culture and religions - pagan or otherwise - that to believe on Jesus is just not going to happen in this age for most of them.  It will only be through a miraculous revealing according to God's timing, when each in his own order is brought in.

I'm not sure about it all, but it seems to me the spiritual aspect (believing on Him or not) has to be taken into account as to "who's who"...

Now that I've said all that, I'm honestly not sure what all I said actually means.   :doh:  Maybe even if most of it's wrong, there's some good helpful thought in there somewhere!   Maybe consider it 'thinking out loud'.   :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #408 on: December 31, 2011, 12:27:58 PM »
I'd have to research that more, but I don't think the dogs in that scripture can mean the Gentiles who are saved...they have become part of spiritual Israel.   :scratchhead:
How I understand it.
Everybody has to become "original Jews".
By that I mean Jew according to God's definition. Not the way the pharisees defined being Jew. 613 man-made regulations. Law before love (healing on Sabbath) That sort of thing.
Quoting myself:
Here Jesus is referring to 3 types of sheep.
a] Sheep that are part of His flock and with Him. (very few I think)
b] Sheep that one were part of His flock but are now lost. (majority of Israel)
c] All sheep not being a or b

More to the point:
a] His sheep are Jews by the definition of God.
b] Lost sheep are Jews by definition of the Pharisees, Scribes, etc
c] Not my flock are all other people. The dogs/not my flock.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #409 on: December 31, 2011, 12:52:27 PM »
Looking at the whole thing, as CHB said earlier, through my glass darkly, I don't see this whole Jew/Gentile/lost tribes thing as much literal/geographical, as I do spiritual at this point.  Not saying the literal has nothing to do with it, but I'm personally thinking not all,
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.


Quote
What if clear lines can't be drawn between who's now part of a certain "tribe" or not, and whether that totally makes them Jew or Gentile?
The difference is how they behave. Circumcision is one example of that. The literal one is replaced with the symbolic one. (the heart).



Quote
Aren't most people in Israel right now not the original inhabitants, per their lineage, that would have been originally considered the Children of Israel?  I think finding a "pure lineage" right now would be difficult, but I may be mistaken.
There might be a few. I think by defenition they wear thick glasses. :gpg:

Quote
As I said, the history part of it is not a strong point for me.  However, my point is, they practice the Jewish religion and still await the Messiah - not seeing that He has come.
I dare to say most Christians didn't see it either. Jesus wants to be seen as a good shepherd. Most Christians think Jesus is a wolf that kills everything outside His tiny flock. (hell).
Can't help to conclude the Christians are at least 7 times more blinded than the Jews.


Quote
Another group ("I have other sheep not of this pasture that I must also bring in") could be talking about all the others - the rest of God's children who are currently "heathens" in all other parts of the world,
I think that's true. The obvious questiosn are: Who owns those sheep righ now? What about goats, rhinos and horses. Do they become sheep?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #410 on: December 31, 2011, 01:10:53 PM »
after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace
"Grafted in" is something that certain scholars can write a whole book about.

I have no green fingers so take the following not to strictly.
Grafted in trees usually produce the best fruit because they combine the best of two worlds.
Usually the tree/trunk is wild. A very strong root system. Because of that it's more immune to none ideal weather conditions. Such, let's say, apple trees often produce poor quality fruit. The quantity isn't high either.
There are (wild) varieties that produce good fruit but die if the weather conditions are a fraction from ideal. Because of that the quantity often is low too. Even the quality is often bad because ideal weather is rare. So that tree is only potentially good.
The trick of grafting in is combining both trees. Strong roots and trunk that guarantee the grafted in apple branches get more food they possibly need in a wide range of weather conditions. So combined we get a very strong tree with lots of quality apples.

BTW the Menorah is a hybrid tree too. Mainly almond tree with grafted in olive tree.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #411 on: December 31, 2011, 02:17:11 PM »
Quote from: ww
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.

In Jesus' day, a Jew was either the tribe of Judah or a person who lived in Judah.  Paul called himself a Jehudite ['Jew'], even though he was tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah.  Also, the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are brought down through the father--they are Patriarchal.

You say 'those tribes are really gone' but that doesn't mean they are 'really gone' to God, and since the new covenant was made with the house of Israel, then by definition, those fulfilling it are the house of Israel.   Or would God make a promise to one group and then throw them under the bus and give the promises to a totally different group?

I noticed a messianic Jew site that says the promises of Jer 31 and Heb 8 have not yet been given to the church because both house of Judah and house of Israel will receive the promises at the same time--end of age.  Obviously, I and most Christians do not agree with that.  We feel the church has received the promises to the house of Israel.  But it shows a different point of view.  The church would say Judah has not yet received the promises because they do not know the Messiah.

Regarding the Canaanite woman who Jesus called a 'dog,' [and Canaanites were considered the lowest of the low by the Jews]  don't forget she was proven to have great faith,-- the only one we see with as great or greater faith is the Centurion, also a Gentile.  She is one of the ekklesia by virtue of her faith.

Here Jesus flips it, and says the wicked Gentiles of Tyre and Sidon will put the Jews to shame:


"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. [Luke 10:13,14]


ps The Dutch are the tribe of Zebulon according to Yair Davidy.  :happygrin:
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 02:45:10 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #412 on: December 31, 2011, 03:37:12 PM »

In Jesus' day, a Jew was either the tribe of Judah or a person who lived in Judah.  Paul called himself a Jehudite ['Jew'], even though he was tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah.  Also, the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are brought down through the father--they are Patriarchal.


The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
JEW, JEWESS, JEWISH

ju, joo, ju'-ish, joo'-ish (yehudhi plural yehudhim; Ioudaioi; feminine adjective yehudhith; Ioudaikos):

"Jew" denotes originally an inhabitant of Judah (2 Kings 16:6 applies to the two tribes of the Southern Kingdom), but later the meaning was extended to embrace all descendants of Abraham. In the Old Testament the word occurs a few times in the singular. (Esther 2:5; 3:4, etc.; Jeremiah 34:9; Zechariah 8:23); very frequently in the plural in Ezra and Nehemiah, Esther, and in Jeremiah and Daniel. The adjective in the Old Testament applies only to the "Jews' language" or speech (2 Kings 18:26,28 parallel Nehemiah 13:24; Isaiah 36:11,13). "Jews" (always plural) is the familiar term for Israelites in the Gospels (especially in John), Acts, Epistles, etc. "Jewess" occurs in 1 Chronicles 4:18; Acts 16:1; 24:24. In Titus 1:14 a warning is given against "Jewish fables" (in Greek the adjective is found also in Galatians 2:14). The "Jews' religion" (Ioudaismos) is referred to in Galatians 1:13,14.
James Orr



You say 'those tribes are really gone' but that doesn't mean they are 'really gone' to God, and since the new covenant was made with the house of Israel, then by definition, those fulfilling it are the house of Israel.   Or would God make a promise to one group and then throw them under the bus and give the promises to a totally different group?


That reasoning is quite similar to arguments employed by Christian Zionists, dispensationalists, and Messianic Jews, who deny that the church is the true Israel, and their approach tends to ignore or discount what Jesus said, and what Paul said on the matter. 

Jesus said, to the woman of Samaria, "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] This gives a very special meaning to the label "Jew." Jesus was called "King of the Jews" when he was crucified.

Paul said, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]

Paul indicated that only through faith in Jesus can men share in the promises given to Abraham. [2 Corinthians 1:20] He said, in an epistle to the Macedonian Christians in the church at Philippi, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]

Paul discouraged people from looking to a literal, fleshly association with Abraham or with the tribes of Israel, as the only connection that counts is by faith in Jesus. [1 Timothy 1:4] He said he counted his own qualifications, and his own Jewish heritage, as "dung."

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" [Philippians 3:8]

The point is, in the Gospel, race and genealogy counts for nothing. God is the Creator of all men, and has made all men of one blood.

Acts 17:24-27
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:


Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #413 on: December 31, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.

 :cloud9: My  :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word. They were joined to Him as one in covenant. Their blood was SEEDED into the Gentiles, and like a seed, it will eventually arise and come to maturity and bear fruit = Christ. They were "lost" in the sense of that blood not being visible, because it's underground (planted in earthen vessels). That's why the blessing comes through Isaac, the promised son, as a type.

The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son), an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.

This two part "split" pattern is repeated EVERYWHERE in the Word, too numerous to go into here. Thank You Lord for Your mercy. Blessings....

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #414 on: December 31, 2011, 03:54:40 PM »
Quote from: ww
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.

In Jesus' day, a Jew was either the tribe of Judah or a person who lived in Judah.  Paul called himself a Jehudite ['Jew'], even though he was tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah.
What about the dispora?

Quote
Also, the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are brought down through the father--they are Patriarchal.
I think it's not that simple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
There is a difference between bloodlines and the man being the "master of the household."
Maybe not the best example but still shows what I mean. I hope  :winkgrin:
In all tribes the males inhertited the status. Male kings. Male priests. etc.
Same for the tribe of Benjamin. But..... only the women in that tribe inherited the power to annoit someone king. It couldn't be done by any member of, for example, the Sanhedrin. That's why Jesus was annoited King by a woman (Mary Magdalena).
I hope you understand the parallel.

Quote
You say 'those tribes are really gone' but that doesn't mean they are 'really gone' to God, and since the new covenant was made with the house of Israel, then by definition, those fulfilling it are the house of Israel.   Or would God make a promise to one group and then throw them under the bus and give the promises to a totally different group?
Who broke the promise? Did God command the Jews to marry with gentile people? I'm sure God has "a fix" for it; but to say they are all Jews.
Simple question. Say I have 1% Jewish blood. Does that make me a decendant of one/several of the tribes?
What about people that have 0% jewish blood? For example those that lived long before there were Jewish tribes.



Quote
I noticed a messianic Jew site that says the promises of Jer 31 and Heb 8 have not yet been given to the church because both house of Judah and house of Israel will receive the promises at the same time--end of age.  Obviously, I and most Christians do not agree with that.  We feel the church has received the promises to the house of Israel.  But it shows a different point of view.  The church would say Judah has not yet received the promises because they do not know the Messiah.
The promise is marriage. (?)
That promise can be revoked. God (in the OT) said He divorced Israel.
The Bible also promises Jesus will gather ALL sheep. Promise doesn't equal completion.
The Messianics are wrong because a promise that people will recieve a promise is also a promise. A promise that was given before/at teh foundation of the world when the Lamb was slain.
In general  would say Christians need to work on their superiority complex.



Regarding the Canaanite woman who Jesus called a 'dog,' [and Canaanites were considered the lowest of the low by the Jews]  don't forget she was proven to have great faith,-- the only one we see with as great or greater faith is the Centurion, also a Gentile.  She is one of the ekklesia by virtue of her faith.

Here Jesus flips it, and says the wicked Gentiles of Tyre and Sidon will put the Jews to shame:


"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. [Luke 10:13,14]


Quote
ps The Dutch are the tribe of Zebulon according to Yair Davidy.  :happygrin:
Can't find much Jewishness in my appearance. Perfect 3rd Reich speciment  :winkgrin:
The tribe is small enough to fit in the Netherlands, after kicking out the muslim tribes  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #415 on: December 31, 2011, 04:07:40 PM »
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.

 :cloud9: My  :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word.
I know. But when I read about the lost tribes it's always a geographic thing. Tribe X is now north Europe. Tribe Y is south Europe. Tribe Z lives in Africa. Just like "we" once will find a pure blooded Jewish tribe hiding in the Amazon.

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They were joined to Him as one in covenant.
That's what grafted in means.
But grafted in also means there is only one tribe because all people will become one big new tree.

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The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son),
Often called the Servant candle. Never noticed the Hanukkah feast has 8 days but 9 candles?


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an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.
Are you saying 6 branches are grafted in? Looks a bit that way perhaps but it's all almond. It looks more/also like the olives (cups that burn the oil) are grafted in. Grafting in always means 2 different time combined. at least as far as may botanical knowledge goes.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #416 on: December 31, 2011, 04:14:23 PM »
 :cloud9: I'm saying the 6 branches (six the number of man, 1 less than perfect/Christ) of the menorah are 2 branches (one side of the olive) with 3 parts. Lines up with Jeremiah saying that the day would come when 2 women (redeemed of the olives) would cover a man (Christ the center stick). Same split pattern. Also, the 3 on the mount saw the "menorah" in front of them. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #417 on: December 31, 2011, 04:27:38 PM »
*There was no country named Israel at the time of Jesus birth*  That term could be used at that time to refer to those who remained of the twelve tribes of Israel, or in reference to the twelve tribes of Israel, most of whom were taken into captivity in the 8th C bc and never returned to the promised land.



"The Roman Empire which by the birth of Jesus controlled most present-day countries bordering the Mediterranean basin including North Africa, was still expanding. Territories remaining to be conquered before the Empire of Rome reached its greatest extent under Trajan (emperor AD98-117) included:

Mauretania - present day Morocco and parts of Algeria,
Britannia - Britain,
Dacia - Rumania and part of Hungary,
Armenia, Mesopotamia and Assyria - which includes present day Iraq,
Arabia - modern Jordan.

The works of Greek philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were widely circulated, and the people of the Roman Empire worshipped a variety of gods. Mithraism - a version of Zoroastrianism - became widespread for a time.

*If you look at the map, what you are calling 'Israel' is called Judea.



At the time of the Roman Empire,
[1] Judea was a small eastern province. Approximately 1,800 years earlier, the patriarch Abraham journeyed there from
[2] Ur of the Chaldees (present-day Iraq), via
[3] Haran to
[4] Canaan. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and grandfather of Jacob.

Jacob's children migrated to Egypt where their younger brother Joseph ("of the coat of many colours") previously sold by them into slavery, had become only second in importance to the Egyptian Pharaoh. Jacob's descendants became the twelve tribes of Israel.

Around 1,200BC, following the Exodus from
[5] Egypt led by Moses and completed by Joshua (of the "battle of Jericho"), Canaan was the "promised land" of the twelve
[6] Tribes of Israel After c 1,000BC, by which time King David and his son Solomon had established a
[7] United Kingdom of Israel and Judah both nations went their separate ways until conquered by other empires.

In c 721BC,
[8] Israel was defeated by the Assyrians and these Jews went into permanent exile.
Then in c 587BC,
[9] Judah fell into the hands of the Babylonians, but their exile to
[10] Babylon was temporary. The Babylonians were conquered by the
[11] Persians and the Jews allowed to return to Judea to rebuild
[12] Jerusalem.


By the time of Jesus, most Jews were spread throughout the
[13] Roman and Parthian Empires, but Jerusalem with a new Temple being built by Herod the Great remained central to the Jewish religion.

Jesus of
[14] Nazareth in Galilee was therefore born a Jew, into nearly 2,000 years of Jewish history, religion and culture in the land of Palestine.


4. THE TERRITORIES and RULERS OF PALESTINE

Palestine is a small but varied land, often harsh in character and with a long and complicated history. Understanding something of its physical and political geography helps to explain the volatile situation into which Jesus came and preached, and the terrain over which he travelled.

When Israel in the north ceased to exist in c 721BC, part of the area later became a territory known as Samaria. Most of Judah in the south, defeated in c 587BC, was later referred to as Judea. By the time of Jesus, PALESTINE comprised various territories. From north to south these were:

1. Chalcis and Abilene in the Roman province of Syria, north of ancient Iturea;

2. Iturea, including Panias and Ulatha, and Trachonitis with Batanaea, Gaulanitis (the modern Golan Heights) and Auranitis, all in south eastern Syria. Hereafter, they are referred to as Iturea and Trachonitis;

3. Galilee with the Sea of Galilee in modern northern Israel, which played an important part in the recorded life and ministry of Jesus;

4. Samaria, Judea and Idumea, that is much of modern central Israel plus the west bank of the River Jordan.

The chief city of the Roman rulers was Caesarea on the Mediterranean coast of Samaria. The Jewish capital was Jerusalem in Judea, where Jesus came a number of times, finally to be arrested, tried and crucified by the Jewish and Roman authorities.

5. The semi-independent Decapolis in modern northern Jordan, was a roughly defined area that included within its boundaries, most of the federated "Ten Cities" established by Alexander the Great.

One such city was Philadelphia - modern Amman, capital of Jordan. Other cities, one of which was Damascus, capital of modern Syria, were outside the boundaries;

6. Perea included much of the present east bank of the Jordan.

During New Testament times, these territories were ruled, at various dates in a variety of ways:

- Direct from Rome through Roman province administrators or governors known as procurators;

- Through the Roman governor of Syria, such as The Decapolis; and

- By Roman-appointed Jewish kings, ethnarchs or rulers, and tetrarchs or rulers of a fourth part of a province."

http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN600NTWORLD.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 04:31:11 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #418 on: December 31, 2011, 04:37:27 PM »
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.

 :cloud9: My  :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word. They were joined to Him as one in covenant. Their blood was SEEDED into the Gentiles, and like a seed, it will eventually arise and come to maturity and bear fruit = Christ. They were "lost" in the sense of that blood not being visible, because it's underground (planted in earthen vessels). That's why the blessing comes through Isaac, the promised son, as a type.

The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son), an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.

This two part "split" pattern is repeated EVERYWHERE in the Word, too numerous to go into here. Thank You Lord for Your mercy. Blessings....

THIS ^^^  [from Cardinal]

[as much as I can understand of it  :laughing7:]

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #419 on: December 31, 2011, 04:43:01 PM »
Quote
They were joined to Him as one in covenant.

Yes.

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That's what grafted in means.
But grafted in also means there is only one tribe because all people will become one big new tree.

No

He's not grafting a pear tree to a plum tree.

He's grafting a wild olive tree to a cultuvated olive tree, but they are both the same tree.

House of Israel=Gentiles=wild olive tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 04:47:33 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #420 on: December 31, 2011, 04:51:51 PM »
Quote from: Doug
That reasoning is quite similar to arguments employed by Christian Zionists, dispensationalists, and Messianic Jews, who deny that the church is the true Israel, and their approach tends to ignore or discount what Jesus said, and what Paul said on the matter

No, I'm saying the church is the true Israel.  And, that all those things that Paul describes were in the Covenant made to the house of Israel in Jer 31.

I'm saying the story is almost complete.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #421 on: December 31, 2011, 04:55:17 PM »
THIS ^^^  [from Cardinal]

[as much as I can understand of it  :laughing7:]

 :cloud9:  ???
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #422 on: December 31, 2011, 05:01:11 PM »
Quote from: ww
Can't find much Jewishness in my appearance. Perfect 3rd Reich speciment

King David was a redhead.

"King David is also known for having red hair, based on the description of his physical appearance as admoni, the Biblical Hebrew word normally interpreted to mean "ruddy", or "red-haired".[83]"

--Wiki

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #423 on: December 31, 2011, 05:01:37 PM »
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has  drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.

 :cloud9: My  :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word. They were joined to Him as one in covenant. Their blood was SEEDED into the Gentiles, and like a seed, it will eventually arise and come to maturity and bear fruit = Christ. They were "lost" in the sense of that blood not being visible, because it's underground (planted in earthen vessels). That's why the blessing comes through Isaac, the promised son, as a type.

The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son), an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.

This two part "split" pattern is repeated EVERYWHERE in the Word, too numerous to go into here. Thank You Lord for Your mercy. Blessings....

THIS ^^^  [from Cardinal]

[as much as I can understand of it  :laughing7:]
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #424 on: December 31, 2011, 05:05:09 PM »
 :cloud9: PS. @ WW.....there were 5 of the 6 branches on the mount. The last branch is being added now. He is the same yesterday (Moses and Elijah), today (3 disciples), and tomorrow (last generation). There were 7 lights, ie. 7 thousand year days (the 7th one is Christ, the Spirit day of the Lord that is no part darkness) are being completed. Christ in us is the light set upon a hill (Mt. Zion) for THIS generation. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor