Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 62414 times)

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Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #350 on: December 28, 2011, 12:21:24 AM »
Quote from: Doug
When Ezekiel wrote his prophecy the people of both kingdoms had been removed from the land of promise. They lived in what is now Iraq, and in various other countries.

In his prophecy, Ezekiel showed the whole house of Israel would be gathered from among the heathen, and they would return to the land promised to their forefathers, and would be reunited under David, (who represents Christ, as Christ has inherited David's throne).

Around 800 bc the northern 10 tribes, the kingdom of Israel,  were taken into captivity to Assyria.  They never returned.

Then around 600 bc the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into Babylon.  They did return around 100 years later and rebuilt the temple.  If they had not returned, we would have no OT Bible.

But, meanwhile, the northern tribes, house of Israel, have become Gentiles over the 900 years or so before Christ walks on the earth.

So you are saying [confirming] that Ezekiel says the house of Israel [Joseph/Ephraim] will be gathered from the heathen and joined to the house of Judah, --two sticks which shall be joined and held as one stick in his hand.  In other words, the lost northern kingdom shall be found and joined to the southern kingdom of Judah.

That makes Eze 37 a double prophecy because this began with the cross--The joining of the two [Jew and Gentile] into one new man--and will end with the resurrection and the manifestation of the sons of God.  Yes? 

In other words, the Gentile Christians are the stick of Joseph [Ephraim], the lost northern ten tribes--they would have to be to fulfill this prophecy.


IMO, it is likely that some members of the ten tribes were dispersed among the nations, and have been "lost," but some Israelites must have returned with the Jews, after their captivity in Babylon, because in the New Testament we read of the lineage of several people of various tribes. Luke says, "THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth." [Luke 1:5] The priests were Levites. Luke also mentioned the prophetess Anna, "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity." [Luke 2:36] Joseph and Mary, of course were of the tribe of Judah and they were descendants of David. Paul was a Benjamite. But the significance of Ezekiel's prophecy about joining the two sticks of Ephraim and Judah has to do with the ultimate application of the prophecies and promises to Israel and Judah; promises given to Israel apply to the church, and the church is represented by both Israel and Judah, and also by Jerusalem, and the temple. All the promises of God are inherited by Christ.

Ezekiel's prophecy in chapter 37, about the two sticks that are joined to become one stick, is rather profound, and has given many scholars trouble. An illustration of this is the experience of Patrick Fairbairn, who I cited in my previous post. He wrote on Ezekiel 37 in 1840, and then again about ten years later, but in the intervening period, he seems to have had a complete change of heart about what the prophecy meant. In his earlier exposition, he quoted Scott, who said that it is "impossible to interpret the language of the prophet of any events, which took place before the coming of Christ, and yet it seems plainly to mean that the Jews should dwell in Canaan under the rule of Christ, from the time intended, through all generations to the end of the world." Fairbairn commented: [1] "They are not merely to be united, according to the prediction, under one head, and incorporated into the same body—which might possibly have been understood of their conversion to the faith of Christ—but in this incorporated state it is expressly declared, that they shall form one nation—shall exist as such upon the mountains of Israel—shall inherit the very land in which their fathers have dwelt, and which had been given in covenant to Jacob. Indeed the terms of that covenant alone might teach us the necessity of the restoration of the Jews, without any such fresh and explicit assurances as those we have been considering; for Canaan was to be given to the seed of Abraham by the line of Jacob, 'for an everlasting possession.' Gen. xvii. 1 8." He thus early in career supported the idea of an earthly "millennium" where Jews are restored to the literal land of Canaan and are doted on by Gentiles in much the same way as so called Christian Zionists and dispensationalist preachers imagine today. But as noted above, Fairbairn had a change of mind, and a kind of conversion, and he became enlightened. He abandoned his previous interpretation. Instead, he realized that the "David" mentioned in Ezekiel 37:24 is a reference to Christ, the son of David who has inherited the throne of David, which is a heavenly throne that endures forever. The kingdom where he reigns is heavenly, and the saints reign with him. Below is his later, more mature exposition of the same prophecy. [2]

   There is nothing absolutely new in the prophecy; it is substantially a fresh exhibition of the prospect already unfolded in chaps, xxxiv. and xxxvi.; but rendering prominent what was there implied rather than broadly asserted, the formal union of the covenant-people, along with their sanctification and blessedness, under the presidency of David. That there has been no adequate fulfilment of the prophecy in what may be called the literal sense of its terms, is too plain to require any lengthened proof. Some advances were of old made towards it,—that is all that can be said. There was a return, to some extent, of the covenant-people, chiefly indeed of the house of Judah, though not without representatives from the other tribes; a visible display of union among such as did return, a partial repossession of the land of the covenant, and an external reconstruction of the temple and its worship—enough to show that God had not forgotten his word, and that he was ready to bless to the full, if his people had been willing to seek to him for the blessing. But still all, not excepting even the things connected with the temple (see on chap. xxi. 26), were found in a very imperfect and mutilated condition, not after the bright pattern furnished here by the hand of the prophet. And the most characteristic part of the description—the cementing, strengthening, benignant rule of David—had not even the appearance of a literal fulfilment in the post-Babylonish history of Israel. The prophecy, therefore, has not been accomplished according to the letter in the past; and, with so strong and prominent a feature of an ideal sort as the eternal presidency of David, it seems amazing that any one should expect it to be realised after that manner in the ages to come. For to that end it were indispensable that the literal David should be raised from the dead, and again set over the heritage of God, vested there even with perpetual sovereignty; notwithstanding that Christ has expressly received, by Divine appointment, the throne of his father David. The prophecy is a detailed picture of coming good, drawn, as such a picture must have been, under the form of the old covenant relations. It exhibits the prospective good, as a revival of Israel's best periods, freed from their still remaining defects and oft-intermingling judgments; and a picture that could be realised only in part, while the old covenant stood, both from its own inherent imperfections, and from the wilful neglect and obstinacy of its people. Not till the new covenant enters does the comparatively perfect begin to develop itself. For with the coming of Messiah, the head and centre of the new, as David was of the old, everything connected with God's kingdom takes a loftier flight and a wider range; the shadows vanish away, being supplanted by the substance; and that which before was partial and restricted, presents now the aspect of an expansive freedom and a universal adaptation. The whole earth is as much Christ's rightful heritage as the territory and people of Canaan were David's; and only when it becomes his actual possession, can the prophecy respecting him, as the New Testament David, reach its destined accomplishment. So that to speak now of the prophecy still requiring for its fulfilment a literal Israel, a literal Canaan, a literal tabernacle, with the many outward and fleshly conditions therewith connected, and that too in the face of the palpable incongruity in the heart of the prophecy of a non-literal David, is as if one were to reduce the lofty tree again to the puny dimensions of the plant, or send the man of full-grown stature back to his cradle,—as if, in short, against all the experience of the past, which is ever moving on to something higher and better, we should expect the chariot-wheels of God's providence to return to their former courses, and keep within the ancient landmarks.

    It was the peerless glory of Israel as a nation, to give to the world the new David, who was to be for humanity the one child of hope, and to furnish to his hand the first builders of that spiritual house, which was to be formed of renewed souls, and reared on the foundation of his perfected redemption. But there their distinctive honour ceases—not as if their real privileges and blessings were lost, but because these must henceforth be shared in common by the household of faith. The very mother that bore Jesus, and his nearest kindred, could attain to no peculiar place in his kingdom by reason of their earthly connection with him: not these, he said, but every one that heareth the word, and doeth the will of my Father in heaven, is my mother and sister and brother. Thus the fleshly bond was broken at the centre, and it must vanish to the farthest circumference; everything founded on natural relationships and genealogical descent was, with the handwriting of ordinances, nailed to the cross of Christ, and buried in his grave, as a part of that bondage to the elements of the world, from which the church had at length escaped, and which should never more be heard of in her borders. The one relationship to be accounted of is union to Christ, which renders all who possess it children of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise—heirs, that is, of all that was given to Abraham in promise; more even, if more could be, for they are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ himself. Therefore, it is folly to speak of robbing the Jew by putting him on a level with the believer in Christ; for to put him there is to raise him to the highest standing that a child of humanity can enjoy, and give him a share in that, which being large enough for all, is not diminished, but rather enhanced by the numbers who partake in it. And for the church herself, seeing that her exulted Head is now at the right hand of the Majesty on high, with power and authority to make the whole earth his possession, instead of seeking to revive the old distinctions, which have served their day, or hanging her hopes on effete outward arrangements, it is alike her wisdom and her duty to press forward the spiritual conquest of the world,—plying with unwearied diligence the means of its regeneration, and withal waiting and praying for the time when, nature itself being regenerated, the earth shall become the fit abode of manifested Deity, and all shall be full of the knowledge, and resplendent with the glory of the Lord. Then in the fullest sense shall the vision of our prophet be realised; for then the entire territory of the new covenant shall be reclaimed for righteousness, and the tabernacle of the Lord most truly be with men.

    In closing this section, we present a brief outline of the view that has been taken of the prophecies contained in the three closely related chapters, xxxiv., xxxvi., xxxvii.; and which in substance applies equally to many other portions of the prophetical Scriptures.

    1. They were originally given to revive and animate the hearts of God's covenant-people, by holding out to them the assured prospect of a reversion from the present evil, and their still certain destination in God's purpose to the highest and most honourable place on the earth.

    2. It was the duty of those to whom such prophecies were delivered, at once to believe the word spoken to them, and apply themselves in earnest to do what was needed to secure its accomplishment; and had they only done this, a far larger measure of the promised good would have been reaped than they actually experienced; this later prospect of blessing, like the earlier, given before entering Canaan, greatly failed through their own sinful unbelief.

    3. But there being manifestly ideal features introduced into the delineation, especially the good spoken of being so peculiarly connected with the rule and presidency of David, clearly betokens a kind and degree of blessing, which could not have been completely fulfilled under the old covenant, nor intended to be altogether fulfilled anytime according to the letter. It shows the prophecies in question to be, like several of an earlier kind in Ezekiel, descriptions of the future under the form and image of the past—not as if the past were actually to return again, but that its general spirit and character were to revive.

    4. The new things thus to be looked for in the future, could only meet with their full and adequate accomplishment in Christ, who is certainly the David of the promise. They are consequently of a higher and more comprehensive nature than any that could be enjoyed under the old covenant, when the kingdom of God was so straitened in its dimensions, and so outward and earthly in its visible constitution. But still, they were of necessity described under the hue and aspect of the things belonging to the old covenant —as if it were these only returning again, or these with certain alterations and improvements, such as might give the future a pre-eminence in glory over the past. For, only by means of what belonged to existing or previous dispensations of God, could the prophet have given any detailed exhibition of what might be expected under another and higher dispensation. The details of the future must have been cast into the mould of the present or the past.

    5. Therefore, in forming one's conceptions now of the real import of such prophecies—now that the transition has been made into the new and higher dispensation—we must throw ourselves back into the narrower and more imperfect relations, amid which they were' written, and thence judge of what is still to come. Thus, as the David of the promise is Christ, so the covenant-people are no longer the Jews distinctively, but the faithful in Christ; and the territory of blessing no longer Canaan, but the region of which Christ is king and lord. What was spoken immediately of the one class of personages and relations, may most fully be applied to the other; and by such a method of interpretation alone do we get a uniform and consistent principle to carry us through the whole. While those, on the other hand, who would find a literal Israel, and a non-literal David, or a literal restoration in Christian times, and a non-literal tabernacle and ritual of worship, arbitrarily confound together things dissimilar and incongruous, and render certainty of interpretation absolutely impossible.

    6. Sixthly, the view thus given is confirmed by the re-production of some of these prophecies in the field of the New Testament Church, set free, as was to be expected, from the outward distinctions and limits of the Old. Thus, in particular, the resurrection-scene of this 37th chapter substantially recurs in the 20th chapter of Rev., and is followed precisely as here by the attack from the embattled forces of Gog and Magog; while not a word is said, which would confine the things spoken to the land of Canaan, or the literal Israel; it is the church and people of Christ at large that are discoursed of. We say nothing respecting the probable time and nature of the events there referred to, but simply point to the identity in character of what is written with the prophecies before us. In those visions of the Apocalypse, the inspired Evangelist stretches out the hand to Ezekiel, and shows how the word spoken so long before by that servant of God, freed from the peculiarities of its Jewish form, is to find its application to the Christian church. The shell has gone, but the substance remains.

    7. We may add, lastly, that the common interpretation, which understands Christ by David, and takes all the rest literally, must inevitably tend to justify the Jew in his unbelief. For he naturally says, Your Messiah has not done the thing you yourselves hold must be done, to fulfil the prophecy; he has not set up his throne in Canaan, and gathered Israel there, and re-established the old worship in its purity; this was the very purpose for which he was to appear, and we must wait till he comes to do it. On the basis of the literal interpretation, there seems no satisfactory answer to this; and it is well known, that, since it has become prevalent, many Jews believe that Christians are coming over to their view of the matter. We are not surprised to hear, as we have heard, of converted Jews declaring, that with such a mode of interpretation, they would go back to Judaism.



References

1. Patrick Fairbairn. The Future Prospects of the Jews—Restoration to their own Land—Universal Conversion to the Faith of Christ. Church of Scotland General Assembly, Committee on the conversion of the Jews. A course of lectures on the Jews. Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1840. pp. 405-442. (Note on p. 422-423.)

2. Patrick Fairbairn. Ezekiel and the book of his prophecy: an exposition. T. & T. Clark, 1855. p. 409-414.


Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #351 on: December 28, 2011, 02:52:52 AM »
wow Doug, I had trouble reading that long post.  If I could just be a little clearer in my stance.

First of all, the kingdom of Judah contained the tribe of Benjamin, because Benjamin always stayed close to Judah after the covenant of Jonathan and David and it remained with Judah as part of the southern kingdom after the split.  They also had their portion of Levites, because the Levites were free-floating amongst the tribes.

All the disciples except for Judas came from the tribe of Benjamin.

But, the mention of the other tribes is scant to non existent in the New Testament until the book of Revelation.

Certainly this prophecy refers to Christ, the lion of Judah,  sitting on David's throne, which was to stay in the hands of Judah until Shiloh come.  Jesus is Shiloh.

The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.--Gen 49:10

So we are talking about the gathering of the people under Shiloh, that is, Christ, and this would not include the non believing Jews.

Jesus himself says,

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mat 15:24

Who did he end up gathering?  The Christians, mostly 'Gentile,' the multitude of nations promised to Abraham and his seed.

The house of Israel is the ten northern tribes, and they are literally lost by the time Jesus arrives on the scene, assimilated by the Gentiles and scattered all over the world.  They are the ones who come to be called Joseph, the tribe of Ephraim, and his fellows, the double portioned ones. 

Under Christ, the Messiah believing Jews and the other tribes [aka Christians] are the ekklesia, the called out ones, the elect, the inheritor, the children of the promise made to Abraham.  They are the tabernacle of David and the New Jerusalem.  There is no longer Jew nor Greek, but--and this is my belief--all 12 tribes have been brought together again under Christ.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.--Rev 21


« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 03:07:45 AM by Molly »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #352 on: December 28, 2011, 05:43:48 AM »

Jesus is Shiloh.



That's very interesting.
Jesus is Shiloh.

Psalm 78:60;
He abandoned the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent he had set up among men.

God left the tabernacle at Shiloh and Jesus filled it again.
Amen!


Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #353 on: December 28, 2011, 03:32:01 PM »
A prophecy in Amos:

11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

--Amos 9

Amos is making this prophecy at a time when the northern kingdom has been taken into captivity in Assyria.  Amos is talking to the little kingdom of Judah which still remains in the land [to be removed itself to Babylon and then returned] and he is telling them that sometime in the future, God will raise up the tabernacle of David.

Now to the New Testament:  Acts 15

The words of Peter:

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith

These are the words of James:

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.  Acts 15



This is saying that this bringing in of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of the Amos prophecy, and that the Gentiles that Jesus is bringing in, joined to the Messianic Jews,  represents the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David.

What is the tabernacle of David?  It is the three-sided tent which contains the ark of the Covenant on display for all the world to see.

The twelve tribes of Israel re-united under Christ represent the tabernacle of David.

The tabernacle of David was Jewish, of the tribe of Judah. Ezekiel's prophecy in ch. 37 where the two sticks were joined identifies all of the tribes of Israel with the tribe of Judah, and Judah with all the other tribes. This is fulfilled in the church. Jesus was a descendant of David, and so those who are in Christ, and who are, as Paul says, "members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones," [Ephesians 5:30] are also of the house of David, or of the tabernacle of David, in a spiritual sense.

The epistle of James is addressed to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." [James 1:1] It is not written to Jews after the flesh, but to Christians. Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3] Whatever our race or nationality after the flesh, those who are in Christ are considered the true "circumcision" which identifies them as "Jews" in a spiritual sense. The people Paul wrote this to were actually Greeks.

Jesus is also our high priest, and believers are described as "kings and priests unto God." [Revelation 1:6] This applies to believers of every nation and tribe. But in the Old Covenant, priests had to come from the tribe of Levi. Thus, the tribe of Levi might represent the saints, and this was also indicated by the apostle Peter, when he wrote: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10] By "royal priesthood" he identified believers with the tribes of Levi and Judah.

So, while the tabernacle of David was Jewish, in a literal sense, and the priests were Levites, the blessings that Jacob inherited were assigned to Joseph. [Genesis 49:26] All of these promises were obtained by Jesus. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]

The church inherits the promises of God to Israel through Christ. There is no inheritance apart from Christ. Peter said, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." [Acts 4:12] Prophecies such as Malachi 3:3 apply to the church, which is represented here as the "sons of Levi," perhaps because under the New Covenant, believers are called priests. "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness."

Doug


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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #354 on: December 28, 2011, 03:46:39 PM »
 :cloud9: @ Molly.....spiritually speaking......Tabernacle of David, no inner court because the Holy of Holies has "descended" into the outer court, a sort of "overlapping" and therefore a fulfilling of the feasts we talked about in another thread somewhere on here. It's man having both the Son (inner court) AND the Father (Holy of Holies), manifested, ie. manifested sons of God. Even in the natural a man who rises to his feet, the head "covers" the feet, sort of an "overlapping".

Spiritually speaking also, Jesus was/is the Tabernacle of David, and since the Father chooses to bring MANY SONS unto glory, so shall it be. The priests portion was God Himself. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #355 on: December 28, 2011, 04:11:39 PM »
 :cloud9: Like your posts, Doug.... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #356 on: December 29, 2011, 12:47:33 PM »
Quote from: Doug
So, while the tabernacle of David was Jewish, in a literal sense, and the priests were Levites, the blessings that Jacob inherited were assigned to Joseph. [Genesis 49:26] All of these promises were obtained by Jesus. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]

The tabernacle of David is a tent erected by David to house the ark.  David was the tribe of Judah, the tribe of kings not priests, yet he wore the ephod of
the high priest when he returned the [stolen] ark to Jerusalem, and set it in the three sided tent, and danced in front of it.  Therefore, David typified the king and priest combination, a type of Christ, and the Melchizedek priesthood.

From the time of the everlasting covenant to Abraham, this has always been a story of one group of people who became the 12 tribes of Israel--and in you, all the nations of the earth will be blessed.  They are not Jews, they are Hebrews, the crossed over ones.

God puts a god over each of the nations of the world, but he keeps Israel for himself, for his own inheritance, and he says to them, "I will make you a kingdom of priests."

Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


How does that work out in the Old Testament?   There is no kingdom of priests.  Only the Levites are priests, and most of them fall into apostasy. In fact, the 12 tribes themselves fall into apostasy and are divorced by God.  The ten northern tribes are scattered to the ends of the earth.  At the end of the Old Testament, things are looking pretty desperate, yet there are prophecies which give hope, which show God has not forgotten his promise to them.

It is in the New Testament that we see the continuation and resolution of this story.  Yes, it is spiritual, but it is also literal, this is what I believe.  He gathers them all back together in Christ!  These are the remnant of the twelve tribes of Israel.  And, he makes them a nation of priests, a holy nation, based not on a bloodline but on the basis of an indestructible life--the Melchizedek priesthood,-- and God himself is the inheritance of the priests.

Numbers 18:20
And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #357 on: December 29, 2011, 01:26:34 PM »
"When the Hebrews came to the outskirts of Canaan, the land that had been promised to them by God, after having fled slavery in Egypt, Moses (the Hebrew leader) sent twelve spies (Hebrew: מרגלים‎, meraglim) into Canaan to report on what was there—one spy representing each of the Twelve Tribes. Ten of the spies returned to say that the land would be impossible to claim, and that giants lived there who would crush the Hebrew army. Only two, Joshua (from the tribe of Ephraim) and Caleb (representing Judah), returned and said that God would be able to deliver Canaan into the hands of the Hebrew nation."

--Wiki


The two that give the good report and end up leading the remnant of the children of Israel into the promised land--Ephraim and Judah-Joshua and Caleb--two witnesses.



Two churches--two witnesses=the overcomers:

 8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. [Rev 2]





 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[Rev 3]
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 01:29:47 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #358 on: December 29, 2011, 03:23:48 PM »
Quote from: Doug
So, while the tabernacle of David was Jewish, in a literal sense, and the priests were Levites, the blessings that Jacob inherited were assigned to Joseph. [Genesis 49:26] All of these promises were obtained by Jesus. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]

The tabernacle of David is a tent erected by David to house the ark.  David was the tribe of Judah, the tribe of kings not priests, yet he wore the ephod of
the high priest when he returned the [stolen] ark to Jerusalem, and set it in the three sided tent, and danced in front of it.  Therefore, David typified the king and priest combination, a type of Christ, and the Melchizedek priesthood.


David erected a tent for the ark in Jerusalem, which was probably similar to the design of the Mosaic tabernacle, except that there was only one room in it, the part corresponding to the holy of holies of the Mosaic tabernacle.

The shape of the holy of holies in the Mosaic tabernacle was a cube, and it seems likely that this was also the shape of the tent David erected to house the ark. This tabernacle is mentioned in 2 Samuel 6:1-23; 7:2; 1 Chronicles 13:1-14; 15:1-16:43. When David determined to build a more permanent house or a temple for the worship of God, and to house the ark, God sent his word to Nathan the prophet:

2 Samuel 7
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

According to this, the house of David and his kingdom were to be established forever. And so, while the "tabernacle of David" was a tent during his lifetime, David's house or tabernacle is to continue forever, and in the New Testament, it is identified with the church. [Acts 15:16] Jesus possesses the "key of David," and so in reality, the "house of David" consists of the followers of Christ, and it is a "spiritual house."
   
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

It is a house built by God. This is the promise made to David; the church is the fulfillment of it.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #359 on: December 29, 2011, 03:52:19 PM »
Quote from: Doug
According to this, the house of David and his kingdom were to be established forever. And so, while the "tabernacle of David" was a tent during his lifetime, David's house or tabernacle is to continue forever, and in the New Testament, it is identified with the church. [Acts 15:16] Jesus possesses the "key of David," and so in reality, the "house of David" consists of the followers of Christ, and it is a "spiritual house."

Yes, the church is the fulfillment of the tabernacle of David.  The church includes the Messianic Jews and the Gentiles [the wild olive tree] who are brought in--both under Christ.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: [Acts 15]


And, who is the church  The church is the fulfillment of this prophecy:


 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. [Eze 37]


It is the gathering of the remnant of the twelve tribes of Israel under Christ, the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David. 

And the whole building is constructed by him and grows into a holy temple in THE LORD JEHOVAH,  [Eph 2:21]

As Cardinal says, Jesus is the tabernacle of David, and so shall his brothers be, the manifested sons of God, the doors of the tent open to the holy of holies, so that the whole world will see,


Whoever has seen me has seen the Father!  [Jn 14:9]


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #360 on: December 29, 2011, 04:33:22 PM »
Amos 9:9 For I will give commandment, and sift the house of Israel among all the Gentiles, as corn is sifted in a sieve, and yet a fragment shall not in any wise fall upon the earth...     11 In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #361 on: December 29, 2011, 05:16:16 PM »
 :cloud9: Good posts.....lots of life coming forth.  :thumbsup: Amen.

The Tabernacle of David is the house of David, and Christ the Seed that is Spirit has the key of David, and He can give it to whomever He will. The word key in Hebrew runs into a meaning of "to open, to loose oneself, be engraved, carved".

Isaiah 22:22 KJV And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open .
 
Revelation 3:7 KJV And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

The key is placed upon the shoulder, the shoulder of the High Priest. The authority rests upon the shoulder, and the engraved onyx stones with the names/natures of the twelve tribes was what was upon his shoulders. They are there as a burden, as a shepherd throws the one lost sheep upon his shoulder, ie. no greater love has any man than this.

The key is His love, and He uses it take them into the presence of the Father, and "read" what has been written (engraved) upon the hearts. Without THIS vision, the people perish, because it details what their purpose in Him is. The porters (literally gate openers) were placed at the four directions around the Father's heart/Holy of Holies by David, and given charge of the contents.

1Chronicles 9:22 All these which were chosen to be porters in the gates were two hundred and twelve*. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office. 23 So they and their children had the oversight of the gates of the house of the LORD, namely, the house of the tabernacle, by wards. 24 In four quarters were the porters, toward the east, west, north, and south. 25 And their brethren, which were in their villages, were to come after seven days from time to time with them. 26 For these Levites, the four chief porters, were in their set office, and were over the chambers and treasuries of the house of God. 27 And they lodged round about the house of God, because the charge was upon them, and the opening thereof every morning pertained to them. 28 And certain of them had the charge of the ministering vessels, that they should bring them in and out by tale*. 29 Some of them also were appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices. 30 And some of the sons of the priests made the ointment of the spices. 31 And Mattithiah, one of the Levites, who was the firstborn of Shallum (reward/retribution, to be at peace) the Korahite, had the set office over the things that were made in the pans. 32 And other of their brethren, of the sons of the Kohathites, were over the shewbread*, to prepare it every sabbath.

 :cloud9: The word opening there is the same word translated as "key". Mattithiah's name means "gift of God", the roots of which go into recompense, reward. What He has written on our hearts, most of which is yet to be revealed, IS our reward. Which is why when He comes, His reward is with Him, and why it says we know not yet what we shall be like, but we know when He appears we shall be like Him. He appears to us continously as the "times of refreshing".

Acts 3:19 KJV Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 


Our sins are blotted out of the "book" that has been written in our heart/womb. The heart/womb will reproduce the nature of whatever seed is planted in it. Saved, but can't overcome something of the flesh? The root is still there bearing fruit. Start seeking the Lord to uproot it and cast it into the fire of the Holy Ghost. The Lord was not the only one "writing"(parable of the wheat and the tares).

But, praise be to God, children are the reward of the Lord, and the Son in our midst is His reward and the portion He has written. The priest's portion was God Himself.

Because of this principle, this is why we are told to keep our mind (part of the womb/soul of man) on those things that are above (spiritual), because those thoughts bear FRUIT. Working out our salvation with fear and trembling, is the opening of the heart to reveal the contents that He did not write, and remove it = deliverance. This is what the gifts of the Spirit are for, and this is the priestly/inner court realm ushered in by Pentecost.

The key of David is to reveal what the Father has written, and takes the High Priest (and to whomever He gives the key to) to enter in and open THAT portion of the book. The crown of life given to the overcomer, is the mitre of the High Priest, which is the high calling Paul said he was pressing in for. And sadly, most of Christendom thinks they are pressing in for a crown, and having removed the "Jewish thought" from the book, they have NO IDEA what the crown represents.

Psalm 127:3 KJV Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while*, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Genesis 15:1 KJV After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.


 :cloud9: Sorry to get long-winded here, but one thing leads to another, leads to another, LOL.....Blessings this day....

« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 05:41:17 PM by Cardinal »
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Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #362 on: December 29, 2011, 06:27:04 PM »
:cloud9: Good posts.....lots of life coming forth.  :thumbsup: Amen.

The Tabernacle of David is the house of David, and Christ the Seed that is Spirit has the key of David, and He can give it to whomever He will. The word key in Hebrew runs into a meaning of "to open, to loose oneself, be engraved, carved".

Isaiah 22:22 KJV And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open .


Below is a commentary on the above verse by Joseph Addison Alexander, from "Isaiah Translated and Explained."

And I will put the key of the house of David on his shoulder; he shall open and there shall be no one shutting, he shall shut and there shall be no one opening. In other words, he shall have unlimited control over the royal house and household, which according to oriental usages implies a high political authority. Some suppose a reference to the actual bearing of the key by the royal steward or chamberlain, and explain its being carried on the shoulder by the fact that large wooden locks and keys of corresponding size are still used in some countries, the latter being sometimes curved like a sickle so as to be hung around the neck. Against this explanation it may be objected, that the phrase house of David seems to imply a metaphorical rather than a literal palace, and that the word translated shoulder includes the upper part of the back, as the place for bearing burdens. (See above, ch. 9:4. 10:27.) The best interpreters appear to be agreed that the government or administration is here represented by the figure of a burden, not merely in the general as in ch. 9:6, but the specific burden of a key, chosen in order to express the idea of control over the royal house, which was the title of the office in question. The application of the same terms to Peter (Matt. 16:19) and to Christ himself (Rev. 3:7) does not prove that they here refer to either, or that Eliakim was a type of Christ, but merely that the same words admit of different applications.



Revelation 3:7 KJV And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
[/color]
The key is placed upon the shoulder, the shoulder of the High Priest. The authority rests upon the shoulder, and the engraved onyx stones with the names/natures of the twelve tribes was what was upon his shoulders. They are there as a burden, as a shepherd throws the one lost sheep upon his shoulder, ie. no greater love has any man than this.


Jesus possess the key of the house of David, which evidently means "unlimited control over the royal house and household," which of course is the church. Unless Christ opens our minds we cannot understand the mysteries of God; He is the only one who could open the seals of the prophetic book described in Revelation 5. Jesus also said that he would give the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter.

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We may find many of these keys in Peter's preaching to the Jews, recorded in the early chapters of Acts, and in his epistles. In fact, the whole New Testament represents these keys, IMO. Peter also recorded some "keys" for understanding prophecy, in 1 Peter 1:9-12. Here he says, the prophets ministered "not unto themselves, but unto us," that is, to the church; the Spirit of Christ was in them; they "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you," or in other words, their prophecies are concerned primarily with the Gospel (which is, after all, a prophecy); and these are the things which "are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven."

These principles may be examples of the "keys" given to Peter; they point us to the right approach for understanding the words of the OT prophets.

Doug

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #363 on: December 29, 2011, 06:55:26 PM »
 :cloud9: EXACTLY.....lines up perfectly with what I was sharing.  :thumbsup: As priests, we have the power to remit sins (loosing) and to retain them (binding), which is why He said when you see (perceive thru the mind of Christ) that the son of man has the power to remit sins, know this, that the kingdom of God has come unto you.

Retaining them is the same as shutting up heaven that it rain not upon the earth(en vessels). Healing occurs, when we have loosed in heaven (Christ IS heaven, the firmament), thereby loosing in earth (en vessels). Loosing in heaven, requires the activation of faith, it being mixed like an apothecary of the priests, looses in earth. Thus, the evidence of that faith IS seen (in earth), as it is in heaven (mind of Christ). This is why He spit (water/spirit) in the earth to restore sight; He was mixing an "apothecary". Blessings...

PS. I've never read any scholar's work, so what you posted REALLY blessed me.  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 06:58:58 PM by Cardinal »
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Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #364 on: December 29, 2011, 07:46:38 PM »
Isaiah 63:11 Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people--where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name



Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.


Obadiah 1:17 But on Mount Zion will be deliverance; it will be holy, and the house of Jacob will possess its inheritance.


Micah 7:14 Shepherd your people with your staff, the flock of your inheritance, which lives by itself in a forest, in fertile pasturelands. Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago.


Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. [Zech 6:12]

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #365 on: December 29, 2011, 08:28:18 PM »
The New Convenant [Testament]




31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. --Jer 31



14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)  [Rom 2]


And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. [Eze 26:36]



You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. [2 Cor 3:3]
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:31:32 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #366 on: December 29, 2011, 08:47:45 PM »
Isaiah 63:11 Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people--where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name



Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.


Some of the previous verses in this chapter are quoted by Paul, and applied to the church. The first verse is:

Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Paul quotes this in Romans 10.

Romans 10:19-21
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The "foolish nation" in verse 19 evidently applies to the Gentiles.

In the KJV, verse 9 refers to a "seed" which could be a reference to Christ.

Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Paul said Jesus has inherited all the promises of God. [2 Corinthians 1:20] Clearly, Jesus is "a seed out of Jacob," and out of Judah. And he is the "inheritor of my mountains," which are metaphors, that represent the promises of God. This was pointed out by H. A. C. Hävernick (1810-1845) in his commentary on Ezekiel. [Heinrich Andreas Christoph Hävernick. Commentar über den Propheten Ezechiel. Erlangen: C. Heyder. 1843. p. 569.] Hävernick also referenced Deuteronomy 33:15 and Habakkuk 3:6. (The book is in German.)

He supported this interpretation of the symbolic meaning of mountains from Genesis 49:26, which is the account of Jacob blessing his son Joseph. Jacob referred to his blessings as extending to "the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The promises and blessings he received were high, or lofty, like high mountains, and everlasting, like the everlasting hills. In other words, they were spiritual in nature, and eternal.

The prophet Habakkuk also spoke of mountains as "everlasting." They represent eternal, spiritual promises. Unless the mountains were symbolic in his prophecy, their being scattered would seem to contradict the idea that they are everlasting.

Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Taken literally, to say "the everlasting mountains were scattered" seems like a contradiction. How could mountains be "scattered"? This enigma is made more curious by his statement that they are "everlasting." The answer is, the "perpetual hills" and "everlasting mountains" are metaphors, and represent God's promises, and the blessings of the Gospel. In the Gospel, the promises of Israel have become available to Gentiles, who are made nigh to "the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise" through faith in Christ and his shed blood. [Ephesians 2:12-13]

Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" [Matthew 24:15-16] I think he meant mountains in a metaphorical sense; flee to God's promises, and God's righteousness. [Psalm 36:6]

The statement in Isaiah 65:9, "mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there" means, not that the saints from all countries and nations will go to Canaan or to Palestine, and dwell there, but that they will possess what that land represents, the spiritual promises to the church, and a "better country." [Hebrews 11:16] These things include understanding the Scriptures, and the message of the Gospel. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]

Doug

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #367 on: December 29, 2011, 09:00:44 PM »

The prophet Habakkuk also spoke of mountains as "everlasting." They represent eternal, spiritual promises. Unless the mountains were symbolic in his prophecy, their being scattered would seem to contradict the idea that they are everlasting.

Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Taken literally, to say "the everlasting mountains were scattered" seems like a contradiction. How could mountains be "scattered"? This enigma is made more curious by his statement that they are "everlasting." The answer is, the "perpetual hills" and "everlasting mountains" are metaphors, and represent God's promises, and the blessings of the Gospel. In the Gospel, the promises of Israel have become available to Gentiles, who are made nigh to "the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise" through faith in Christ and his shed blood. [Ephesians 2:12-13]

Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" [Matthew 24:15-16] I think he meant mountains in a metaphorical sense; flee to God's promises, and God's righteousness. [Psalm 36:6]

The statement in Isaiah 65:9, "mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there" means, not that the saints from all countries and nations will go to Canaan or to Palestine, and dwell there, but that they will possess what that land represents, the spiritual promises to the church, and a "better country." [Hebrews 11:16] These things include understanding the Scriptures, and the message of the Gospel. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]

Doug

Amen.  Beautiful. I would include in "the better country" becoming "partakers of the divine nature", "being transformed into the image of Christ",  and "being filled up to all the fulness of God".

Also as an interesting aside....... Habbakuk did not refer to the hills as "everlasting" per say. In Habbakuk three words "quedem", "ad" and "olam" are all translated "everlasting". I wonder what the reason for that is. Just "three different ways of saying the same thing?" or, maybe something worth looking into a little more closely.
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Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #368 on: December 29, 2011, 09:04:25 PM »

The prophet Habakkuk also spoke of mountains as "everlasting." They represent eternal, spiritual promises. Unless the mountains were symbolic in his prophecy, their being scattered would seem to contradict the idea that they are everlasting.

Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Taken literally, to say "the everlasting mountains were scattered" seems like a contradiction. How could mountains be "scattered"? This enigma is made more curious by his statement that they are "everlasting." The answer is, the "perpetual hills" and "everlasting mountains" are metaphors, and represent God's promises, and the blessings of the Gospel. In the Gospel, the promises of Israel have become available to Gentiles, who are made nigh to "the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise" through faith in Christ and his shed blood. [Ephesians 2:12-13]

Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" [Matthew 24:15-16] I think he meant mountains in a metaphorical sense; flee to God's promises, and God's righteousness. [Psalm 36:6]

The statement in Isaiah 65:9, "mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there" means, not that the saints from all countries and nations will go to Canaan or to Palestine, and dwell there, but that they will possess what that land represents, the spiritual promises to the church, and a "better country." [Hebrews 11:16] These things include understanding the Scriptures, and the message of the Gospel. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]

Doug

Amen.  Beautiful. I would include in "the better country" becoming "partakers of the divine nature", "being transformed into the image of Christ",  and "being filled up to all the fulness of God".

Also as an interesting aside....... Habbakuk did not refer to the hills as "everlasting" per say. In Habbakuk three words "quedem", "ad" and "olam" are all translated "everlasting". I wonder what the reason for that is. Just "three different ways of saying the same thing?" or, maybe something worth looking into a little more closely.

 :thumbsup:

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #369 on: December 29, 2011, 09:20:40 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Some of the previous verses in this chapter are quoted by Paul, and applied to the church. The first verse is:

Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Paul quotes this in Romans 10.

Romans 10:19-21
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The "foolish nation" in verse 19 evidently applies to the Gentiles.

The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.  The house of Judah returned to the land and preserved their identity, but the house of Israel was sifted through the nations and became Gentiles.

In fulfillment of the covenant, he becomes sought of them that didn't ask for him, he finds those that didn't seek for him, a nation not called by his name for they are called 'Gentile,' the no-people, the not-a-people become his people called by his name--Christian.


"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'  Hos 1:10


Romans 9:26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"


2 Corinthians 6:18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #370 on: December 30, 2011, 04:04:39 PM »
 :cloud9: I was meditating on this subject of the High Priest again on the way home yesterday, and it occured to me that the High Priest's (Aaron) seed, also served in that capacity until they were struck dead for offering up strange fire. We too, have a High Priest, Christ, and His SEED, a many-membered body of sons, also will serve in that capacity, which goes along with what I related about the crown the overcomers receive (the mitre of the High Priest), but they won't offer up strange fire.

THESE are the sons of God Romans 8 is talking about and why all of creation is waiting for their manifestation. The priest realm we have been in, could only cover sin, but the High Priest's ministry on the day of Atonement, REMOVED it. THIS is why we WILL overcome death, because if there is no sin, there can be no death.

This will necessitate a change of blood. Our blood is red because of the iron in it, and iron speaks of judgment. When I was hemmoraging for 7 straight weeks (after 2 days the doctor was concerned I'd need a transfusion), I finally asked told the Lord, surely I must be in need of a transfusion by NOW??? Yet I didn't. The thought came to me then that our blood would be changed or replaced, SOMETHING was going to happen to it. Just thinking out loud this morning over coffee with my friends  :winkgrin:.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #371 on: December 30, 2011, 04:39:55 PM »
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

 2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

 4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

 5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

 6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

 7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

 8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

 9For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

 10In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #372 on: December 30, 2011, 05:19:36 PM »

The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.  The house of Judah returned to the land and preserved their identity, but the house of Israel was sifted through the nations and became Gentiles.

In fulfillment of the covenant, he becomes sought of them that didn't ask for him, he finds those that didn't seek for him, a nation not called by his name for they are called 'Gentile,' the no-people, the not-a-people become his people called by his name--Christian.


"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'  Hos 1:10


Romans 9:26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"


2 Corinthians 6:18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."


Jeremiah's prophecy of the New Covenant is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17. Paul said that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, "circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." [Colossians 3:11]

Whether or not one has any ethnic lineage from Abraham makes no difference under the New Covenant. The fact that Jeremiah's prophecy says the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel implies that those who believe in Christ are the true Israel of God. And in Romans 11, Paul seems to support this; the Gentiles are the branches of a wild olive that are grafted into a good olive tree, while natural branches were cut off.

In Hebrews 4:1-9, the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness is compared with that of those who believe the Gospel. The point of comparison is that faith is required, in order for one to enter into God's "rest." This was true of the Israelites under Moses, and also for those in the church. What is the "rest"? In the case of the Israelites, it was the literal promised land. In the case of Christians, it is what the promised land represents: the spiritual things promised to the church.

The land of Canaan was the territory where the descendants of Jacob dwelt for several centuries, and where many of the revelations of God were given. The history of the Israelites, and their customs, and language, provide the background setting for these revelations. When Paul considered the question, what is the chief benefit of being Jewish? he did not even mention inheriting the land of Canaan, but said: "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."  [Romans 3:1-2] Possessing the revelations of God are their chief advantage. And for a Christian, the knowledge of the Scriptures and understanding their message, as expounded in the New Testament, and believing it, corresponds to dwelling in the promised land. This is the "better country" referred to in Hebrews 11:16. In Ezekiel's prophecies, and other prophecies of the OT, the land and the mountains of Israel correspond to God's promises intended for the church. On the other hand, the lands of other nations, where the covenant people are scattered, and from where they are to be brought back, in a new and greater exodus, correspond false religions, flawed interpretations, and ideas of men. To be brought back to the promised land represents understanding the prophecies, and all the Scriptures, as Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]

Entering the "rest" is pictured in a typological way by the conquest of the land by the Israelites, led by Joshua. As there were said to be "giants" occupying the land, there are spiritual "giants" who have to be dealt with in order for us to possess our spiritual inheritance. They include the Church Fathers, Reformers, Bible scholars, the founders of numerous denominations and sects, critical scholars, preachers, ministers, missionaries, TV personalities etc. They are the spiritual "giants" who shape what is currently believed in the churches.
   
Some of them claim that the "land" in the OT is nothing else but the literal land of Palestine, and the promises of a return to the land apply to ethnic Jews, and must be fulfilled in a literal way. They miss the spiritual meaning of the "land" as a type and shadow of the "better country" into which Christ leads his saints. Jesus is the true shepherd who "seeks his sheep." [Ez. 34:11] He says he will deliver them from the mouths of the shepherds who feed themselves. [Ez. 34:10]

They will be gathered from the countries where they are scattered and brought to their own land, where they will feed "upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers." [vs. 13] These mountains are symbolic of the promises to the church. The prophet Joel said "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters." [Joel 3:18] These of course are metaphors; new wine has a spiritual meaning. When the Spirit was given to the disciples in Acts 2, they were thought to have become drunk with "new wine." [Acts 2:13]

A similar prophecy by Amos says: "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt." [Amos 9:13] The prophet was not describing the productivity of the literal land in a future millennium, but the happy effects of believing and understanding the message of the Gospel; metaphors of plowing, sowing, and reaping, are each mentioned in the parables of Jesus, and connected with the Gospel.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #373 on: December 30, 2011, 05:35:41 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Whether or not one has any ethnic lineage from Abraham makes no difference under the New Covenant. The fact that Jeremiah's prophecy says the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel implies that those who believe in Christ are the true Israel of God. And in Romans 11, Paul seems to support this; the Gentiles are the branches of a wild olive that are grafted into a good olive tree, while natural branches were cut off.


I'm not suggesting overlooking all the spiritual meanings in the Bible, nor do I do that.  But I do insist [maybe a little stubbornly] on having a story with a beginning, middle, and end--because I believe the whole Bible was written by one hand.

There would be no easy way to trace for sure the migrations of those lost tribes, or to say this one belongs and that one doesn't.   God has made sure that 2800 years later no one will be able to say much of anything about it at all.  But, I'm sure it knocked the socks off the apostles when the light dawned on them that these Gentiles they were converting in droves were their [lost] brothers, as we can see in Acts 15.



12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

--Acts 15



James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.  James 1:1


What twelve tribes?  They had disappeared almost a thousand years before this was written.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:43:30 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #374 on: December 30, 2011, 07:49:43 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Whether or not one has any ethnic lineage from Abraham makes no difference under the New Covenant. The fact that Jeremiah's prophecy says the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel implies that those who believe in Christ are the true Israel of God. And in Romans 11, Paul seems to support this; the Gentiles are the branches of a wild olive that are grafted into a good olive tree, while natural branches were cut off.


I'm not suggesting overlooking all the spiritual meanings in the Bible, nor do I do that.  But I do insist [maybe a little stubbornly] on having a story with a beginning, middle, and end--because I believe the whole Bible was written by one hand.

There would be no easy way to trace for sure the migrations of those lost tribes, or to say this one belongs and that one doesn't.   God has made sure that 2800 years later no one will be able to say much of anything about it at all.  But, I'm sure it knocked the socks off the apostles when the light dawned on them that these Gentiles they were converting in droves were their [lost] brothers, as we can see in Acts 15.



12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


Let's first speak of natural Gentiles, and natural Israelites. Either these people were Gentiles, or not; in which case they might be the people of the ten tribes, that is, Israelites, but, the text calls them Gentiles. If the Scripture is right, then they were not members of the lost ten tribes.


15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

--Acts 15


If they were natural Israelites, then they would not fulfill the prophecy that James referred to. This also applies to Paul's argument, in Romans 11; if the people Paul preached to were natural Israelites rather than Gentiles his argument is invalid. In that case, how could he be the "apostle of the Gentiles"?

Romans 11:12-14
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.



James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.  James 1:1


What twelve tribes?  They had disappeared almost a thousand years before this was written.

IMO, James addressed the church as the "twelve tribes." This is a cipher, or a symbol, as the church consists of those "made nigh to the covenants and promises of Israel" by faith in Christ. Paul said to the Ephesians, "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." [Ephesians 2:11-13] None of this would make sense, if the Ephesian Christians in fact belonged to the lost ten tribes of Israel. The natural tribes of the Israelites were apparently lost to history, and their separate identities disappeared, probably because of intermarriage between the tribes, or with the people of other nations, and they were scattered during various migrations. Some say, they ended up in England, Wales, Ireland, or other parts of Western Europe; others say Africa, some say India, some say Afghanistan, or Pakistan, some say they are the Samaritans, some say they went to the Iberian peninsula, and migrated to South America, or to North America. I think the Mormons claim that some of the American Indians descend from the lost ten tribes.

On the other hand, Paul said the Gentile believers at Ephesus were "made nigh by the blood of Christ" to the covenants of promise and the promises to Israel, which would include the label "Israel." And this explains why James addressed his epistle to the "twelve tribes." Similarly, John said that the number of those who were sealed was 144,000 "of all the tribes of the children of Israel." [Revelation 7:4] He listed each of the tribes, but he excluded the tribe of Dan, and said there were 12,000 from each tribe. Obviously, this is a symbolic number.

Doug