Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 59415 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #325 on: December 21, 2011, 10:33:12 PM »
 :cloud9: Does everyone realize that WE'RE spiritual Israel?.....if so be it that we have the baptism in the Spirit that begins the circumcision process.  My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #326 on: December 21, 2011, 10:35:18 PM »


So that He may increase and I may decrease.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4286
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #327 on: December 22, 2011, 02:27:56 AM »
The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration.  But it's all spiritual.  He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit.  He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of.  Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual.  That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly.  So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Nathan


Yes I believe the scriptures testify to that. That all of Israel shall know me in spiritual truth, circumcised in heart. I think the bones are a picture of their bodies being regenerated. I am not sure at the moment, but I reason God has plans for the Israelites, maybe these plans are different to the gentile church. Not sure who is who, but I think God will have a physical flesh and blood people who minister to him from an earthly realm, in order to bring the rest of humanity under his guidance.

Zechariah 8:23
 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I see the prophecy as the rebirth of a dead nation, the people of God, scattered, not "knit together in brotherly love",nor "in one mind and one accord", nor, "attain(ing) to the unity of the faith, unto a mature(spiritual) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".

Then standing up, and "gathering", "jointly built together", "fitly joined" by the "quickened word"(spiritually activated word/rhema), growing by that which every joint and ligament supplies according to the effectual working of "each individual part"- into a great army

Then, by the quickening Spirit, the waiting army(Jericho falls) is "anointed", and "strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man", fully equipped with "weapons mighty through God" for the "Tearing down of every stronghold and every tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God-

Joe 2:28-32  "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.  (29)  "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.  (30)  "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.  (31)  "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.  (32)  "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

The ONE NEW MAN, the many membererd body of Christ, the amalgamated sons of the ages, "others have labored, we have entered into their labors". It is NOW, TODAY, if we hear His voice :o)

I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
I have seen the victory, and it is us too ;o)

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #328 on: December 22, 2011, 03:10:03 AM »

I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
I have seen the victory, and it is us too ;o)


 :thumbsup:

There seem to be some parallels between the prophecy of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37, and the one in the following two chapters about the Gog & Magog invasion, which John interprets in Revelation 20 as an assault by deceived people upon the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city," the Church. Some possible connections are shown in the following table.


Valley of bones - Ezekiel 37 Gog & Magog - Ezekiel 38-39
a great many bones [Ez. 37:2] a great multitude [Ez. 38:4]
bones connect to each other [Ez. 37:7] bones are searched for and flagged for burial [Ez. 39:12-15]
sinews and flesh and skin are added [Ez. 37:8] flesh is devoured by the birds and beasts [Ez. 39:18]
when Ezekiel prophesies to the wind, the breath of life comes into them [Ez. 37:10] the invaders come against the prophets of Israel [Ez. 38:17]
an army is created from bones [Ez. 37:10] invading armies of Gog and Magog are reduced to bones [Ez. 39:15]
a great army comes to life in a valley [Ez. 37:10] corpses of the slain are buried in a valley [Ez. 39:15]
God's people are brought into their own land [Ez. 37:12] Israel is gathered from the lands of their enemies, and settled in their own land [Ez. 39:28]
God's spirit is put in them [Ez. 37:14] God's spirit is poured out on the house of Israel [Ez. 39:29]


A New Testament reference to "bones" and "flesh" is Ephesians 5:30, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."

Doug

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #329 on: December 22, 2011, 03:35:36 AM »
:cloud9: Does everyone realize that WE'RE spiritual Israel?.....if so be it that we have the baptism in the Spirit that begins the circumcision process.  My  :2c:

With that thought, there can be a start.
Yet in religion, orthodoxy theologians and America and especially christianity, we find an upheaval  of opinion which deludes our thinking as to what we are to look at. Again with that thought that Cardinal posted,
"Does everyone realize that WE'RE spiritual Israel?" That is so very important and vital, when we listen to the world today and all the problems in the Middle East and the expressions of the political views today. Focus. You hit it Cardinal! :happyclap: :happyclap:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Online jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9058
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #330 on: December 22, 2011, 09:00:32 AM »
Here's another perspective.   :bigGrin:

I am the vine; you are the branches... apart from me you can do nothing.   John 15:5


Enemy;   ..that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring [in fierce hunger], seeking someone to seize upon and devour.  2 Corinthians 10:3,4

Victory;  I [JESUS] am the living one. I died, but look--I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.  Revelation 1:18


We're the beneficiaries!

"Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  I Corinthians 15:57
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #331 on: December 22, 2011, 03:39:06 PM »
The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration.  But it's all spiritual.  He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit.  He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of.  Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual.  That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly.  So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Nathan


Yes I believe the scriptures testify to that. That all of Israel shall know me in spiritual truth, circumcised in heart. I think the bones are a picture of their bodies being regenerated. I am not sure at the moment, but I reason God has plans for the Israelites, maybe these plans are different to the gentile church. Not sure who is who, but I think God will have a physical flesh and blood people who minister to him from an earthly realm, in order to bring the rest of humanity under his guidance.

Zechariah 8:23
 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I see the prophecy as the rebirth of a dead nation, the people of God, scattered, not "knit together in brotherly love",nor "in one mind and one accord", nor, "attain(ing) to the unity of the faith, unto a mature(spiritual) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".

Then standing up, and "gathering", "jointly built together", "fitly joined" by the "quickened word"(spiritually activated word/rhema), growing by that which every joint and ligament supplies according to the effectual working of "each individual part"- into a great army

Then, by the quickening Spirit, the waiting army(Jericho falls) is "anointed", and "strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man", fully equipped with "weapons mighty through God" for the "Tearing down of every stronghold and every tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God-

Joe 2:28-32  "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.  (29)  "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.  (30)  "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.  (31)  "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.  (32)  "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

The ONE NEW MAN, the many membererd body of Christ, the amalgamated sons of the ages, "others have labored, we have entered into their labors". It is NOW, TODAY, if we hear His voice :o)

I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
I have seen the victory, and it is us too ;o)

 :cloud9: :thumbsup: I also see it as the Omega, those one with Him from the beginning (Alpha).
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #332 on: December 22, 2011, 06:02:52 PM »
Although in Revelation 20:8 John mentions Gog and Magog, and thus connects his prophecy to Ezekiel 38 & 39, in some ways his statements saying they "compass the camp of the saints about," and the "beloved city," in verse 9 seem to apply to the prophecies of Zechariah 12 & 14, which describe an assault upon Jerusalem involving all nations.

John shows that the assault is spiritual, and his interpretation implies that Ezekiel 38-39 does not mean that armies riding on horses, armed with bows and arrows, and clubs, and spears, will gather against the earthly Jerusalem either in the near future, or at the end of a thousand year millennial reign.

Rather, Ezekiel's prophecy is about an assault on the church, that involves things of a spiritual nature, such as correctly understanding the Gospel, and correctly interpreting prophecy. These are spiritual things promised to the church. They are represented by the "promised land" in the Old Testament. Those who get the Gospel wrong, and misinterpret the prophets, may be among those who assault the camp of the saints.

Ezekiel identifies Gog & Magog as Gentiles, [Ez. 38:2, 3, 5, 6] and in Zechariah, the warfare involves all the people of the earth; [Zech. 12:3] all nations gather against Jerusalem to battle. [Zech. 14:2]

In Ezekiel, these armies are a great company, [Ez. 38:3] and similarly, in Revelation, John says they number as the sand of the sea. [Rev. 20:8]

God brings them forth; [Ez. 38:4] and God gathers the invading armies in Zechariah. [Zech. 14:2]

Ezekiel said they are armed with swords, spears, bucklers, and shields. [Ez. 38:4] No such weapons are mentioned by Zechariah. But Joel said, they are not wounded, when they fall upon the sword. [Joel 2:8] This implies the sword is not one that is meant to cut flesh; it is a spiritual sword. 

They come against the mountains of Israel; [Ez. 38:8] in Joel, they leap upon the tops of mountains. [Joel 2:5] Zechariah said the mount of Olives is cleaved in the midst. [Zech. 14:4] Mountains are symbolic of the promises and blessings of God for the saints. [See this post for more.]

They come against the land brought back from the sword. [Ez. 38:8] Joel said the land is as the garden of Eden before them. [Joel 2:3] The sword is God's word, and the "land brought back from the sword" alludes to Eden. In Zechariah they are in a siege against Judah and against Jerusalem. [Zech. 12:2] These are figures of the heavenly city, and "a better country." [Heb. 11:16]

They come in the latter years; [Ez. 38:8, 16] in both Joel and Ezekiel, the time frame is the day of the Lord. [Joel 2:1; Zech. 14:1]

Ezekiel said they are like a cloud that covers the land. [Ez. 38:9] Joel described "a day of clouds and of thick darkness." [Joel 2:2] Zechariah said it is a day that is "neither clear, nor dark." [Zech. 14:6] The prophet Hosea described men who were "as the morning cloud and as the early dew that passeth away," ... "and as the smoke out of the chimney." [Hosea 13:3] Peter said the false prophets were "clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." [2 Peter 2:17] The above references suggest the invading hordes of Gog and Magog may be identified with flawed teaching and beliefs so prevalent today, or "dead" churches.

They invade the land of unwalled villages. [Ez. 38:11] In Zechariah, Jerusalem is as "towns without walls." [Zech. 2:4] Neither of these statements fit the earthly Jerusalem, where there is a 700 km long wall or fence of concrete and barbed wire.

They seek to take away a great spoil, silver and gold, and a prey. [Ez. 38:12] Similarly, Zechariah said the spoil is divided in your midst. [Zech. 14:1] Spiritual things that belong to the Church are taken away. One of these is the name "Israel," that most news reporters apply to the Jewish state, but "pseudo-Israel" might be a better name for it. Tens of thousands of denominations and sects take away the unity of the church. Many other examples could be given.
   
Ezekiel said they all ride upon horses; [Ez. 38:15] in Joel, they appear like horses; [Joel 2:4, Rev. 9:17] Zechariah said every horse will be smitten with astonishment, [Zech 12:4] and horses, asses, mules and camels suffer the plague. [Zech. 14:15] In Psalm 32:9, those who have no understanding are compared to horses.

Ezekiel said they come against the prophets of Israel; [Ez. 38:17] no modern military force would come against the prophets of Israel, (i.e., Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, etc.) but those who misinterpret the prophets may do so. Joel said, "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining." [Joel 2:10] In the New Testament, the sun represents the Gospel. [Matt. 13:43; Rev. 12:1] The sun becoming dark pictures the Gospel being obscured by false teachings, tares sown by an enemy, including pagan ideas about the immortality of the soul, and the unending infernal torment of unbelievers introduced in the early centuries of the church. [Origen, Tertullian, Augustine are examples.]

Doug
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 10:01:54 PM by Doug »

Offline redhotmagma

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #333 on: December 22, 2011, 06:07:02 PM »
I'm enjoying your posts Doug  :thumbsup:

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4286
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #334 on: December 22, 2011, 06:22:43 PM »
Are we talking about the same armies Doug?   I was referring to the dry bones, not Gog and Magog


Eze 37:1-11   

The Dry Bones Live


 The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.  (2)  Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.  (3)  And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
 (4)  Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!  (5)  Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.  (6)  I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
 (7)  So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.  (8)  Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
 (9)  Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"  (10)  So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
 (11)  Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #335 on: December 22, 2011, 07:04:28 PM »
Are we talking about the same armies Doug?   I was referring to the dry bones, not Gog and Magog


Yes, I realize you were referring to the army in Ez. 37, that is revived from the dry bones.

Perhaps the two armies Ezekiel describes, one in ch. 37, and the other in ch. 38-39, are connected, like the wheat and the tares growing together in the same field. One is destroyed by various judgments, and the other one is revived.

In your previous post, you quoted from Joel 2, and that chapter also describes an army. It is called "a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations." [Joel 2:2] In Joel's prophecy, there is only one army, and verse 11 says, "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great." The army is identified as God's army. After the description given in verses 1-11, the prophet calls for repentance. [Verses 12-20]

In verse 17, the prophet says, "Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them." 

And compare Zech. 14:1-2, where the holy city is taken, and half goes into captivity. Many are "captive" to various flawed interpretations, sects, cults, denominations, etc.

I think all these prophecies have to be considered together; they all help us to understand the current condition of the church.

Doug



Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4286
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #336 on: December 22, 2011, 08:49:49 PM »
My reference to Joel was not connected to gog magog or the army of judgment earlier in the chapter(Joel 2:6-11). It was referring to the prophesy of BLESSING (Joel 2:21-32) and Lord's promise to POUR OUT OF HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH. I was connecting this to connected to Ezekiel PROPHESYING TO THE WIND for the resurrection of the dried out people of God(relevant to TODAY).

I could have made it easier by including the quote I was really responding to with a big amen, which was Cardinal's "Does everyone realize the we're spiritual Israel"

Context is everything!

Peace.... Out..... :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #337 on: December 22, 2011, 08:56:29 PM »
Doug origen, supports apokastatias, the salvation of all. None challenged him on this teaching, but his other teachings were challenged.


Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #338 on: December 22, 2011, 10:04:53 PM »
My reference to Joel was not connected to gog magog or the army of judgment earlier in the chapter(Joel 2:6-11). It was referring to the prophesy of BLESSING (Joel 2:21-32) and Lord's promise to POUR OUT OF HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH. I was connecting this to connected to Ezekiel PROPHESYING TO THE WIND for the resurrection of the dried out people of God(relevant to TODAY).

I could have made it easier by including the quote I was really responding to with a big amen, which was Cardinal's "Does everyone realize the we're spiritual Israel"

Context is everything!

Peace.... Out..... :o)

Okay, I have deleted the quoted paragraphs from my post.

 :Sparkletooth:

Doug

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #339 on: December 22, 2011, 10:14:38 PM »
Doug origen, supports apokastatias, the salvation of all. None challenged him on this teaching, but his other teachings were challenged.


He was a Platonist who merged Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul with New Testament teachings, which later on opened the door for the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers.

Wikipedia says:

Origen's cosmology is complicated and controverted, but he seems to have held to a hypothesis of the preexistence of souls, before the world we know was created by God, God created a great number of spiritual intelligences. At first devoted to the contemplation and love of their creator, almost all of these intelligences eventually grew bored of contemplating God, their love for him cooling off. Those whose love for God diminished the most became demons. Those whose love diminished moderately became human souls, eventually to be incarnated in fleshly bodies. Those whose love diminished the least became angels. One, however, who remained perfectly devoted to God became, through love, one with the Word (Logos) of God. The Logos eventually took flesh and was born of the Virgin Mary, becoming the God-man Jesus Christ. The diverse conditions in which human beings are born is actually dependent upon what their souls did in this pre-existent state. Thus what seems unfair, some being born poor and others wealthy, some sick and others healthy, and so forth, is, Origen insists, actually in a by-product of the free-will of souls. Thus, material creation is at least implicitly of a lesser ontological category than the immaterial, or spiritual, and the heavy material bodies that man assumes after the fall will eventually be cast off. Origen, however, still insisted on a bodily resurrection, but in contrast to Athenagoras, who believed that earthly bodies would be precisely reconstituted in the hereafter, Origen argued that Paul's notion of a flourishing spiritual body is more appropriate.

Doug

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #340 on: December 23, 2011, 12:42:37 AM »
Doug origen, supports apokastatias, the salvation of all. None challenged him on this teaching, but his other teachings were challenged.


He was a Platonist who merged Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul with New Testament teachings, which later on opened the door for the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers.

Wikipedia says:

Origen's cosmology is complicated and controverted, but he seems to have held to a hypothesis of the preexistence of souls, before the world we know was created by God, God created a great number of spiritual intelligences. At first devoted to the contemplation and love of their creator, almost all of these intelligences eventually grew bored of contemplating God, their love for him cooling off. Those whose love for God diminished the most became demons. Those whose love diminished moderately became human souls, eventually to be incarnated in fleshly bodies. Those whose love diminished the least became angels. One, however, who remained perfectly devoted to God became, through love, one with the Word (Logos) of God. The Logos eventually took flesh and was born of the Virgin Mary, becoming the God-man Jesus Christ. The diverse conditions in which human beings are born is actually dependent upon what their souls did in this pre-existent state. Thus what seems unfair, some being born poor and others wealthy, some sick and others healthy, and so forth, is, Origen insists, actually in a by-product of the free-will of souls. Thus, material creation is at least implicitly of a lesser ontological category than the immaterial, or spiritual, and the heavy material bodies that man assumes after the fall will eventually be cast off. Origen, however, still insisted on a bodily resurrection, but in contrast to Athenagoras, who believed that earthly bodies would be precisely reconstituted in the hereafter, Origen argued that Paul's notion of a flourishing spiritual body is more appropriate.

Doug


I agree with most of what he said

Romans 8:29
 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

But not the logos part, that is new to me.


Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #341 on: December 24, 2011, 04:24:52 PM »
William Milligan D. D., (1821-1892) was Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism, University of Aberdeen, Scotland. In his comments on Revelation 20, Milligan pointed out that there are striking parallels between the prophecies in chapters 20 and 12 of Revelation. He wrote:

The whole picture of the thousand years thus presented to us is, in all its main features, in the binding of Satan, in the security and blessedness of the saints, and in the loosing of Satan for the war, a striking parallel to the scenes in chap. xii. of this book. There Michael and his angels contend with the devil and his angels, and the latter prevailed not (comp. the very remarkable parallel in John i. 5, "and the darkness overcame it not"), but were cast out of heaven into the earth, so that the inhabitants of heaven are for ever safe from them. There the child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and from the thought of whom it is impossible to separate the thought of those who are one with Him, is caught up unto God and unto His throne. Finally there also the dragon, though unable really to hurt the saints, "the rest of the woman's seed which keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus," makes war upon them, but without result. This picture in chap. xx. is a repetition, but at the same time a fuller development, of that in chap. xii.; and when we call to mind the peculiarities of apocalyptic structure formerly spoken of, we seem in this fact alone to have no small evidence of the correctness of the interpretation now proposed.


The chapter in which Milligan discussed Revelation 20 can be seen here
In the table below, points of comparison between Revelation 12 and chapters 19 & 20 are listed.


Revelation 12
Revelation 19-20
the woman is clothed with the sun [Rev. 12:1] the woman is clothed in fine linen, clean and white [Rev. 19:8]
Jesus rules all nations with a rod of iron [Rev. 12:5] Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron [Rev. 19:15]
Satan and his angels battle against Michael and his angels [Rev. 12:7] Satan is bound for a thousand years [Rev. 20:2]
Satan deceives the whole world [Rev. 12:9] Satan deceives the nations in the four quarters of the earth [Rev. 20:8]
the saints overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb [Rev. 12:11] the saints who are beheaded reign with Christ for a thousand years [Rev. 20:6]
Satan has but a short time [Rev. 12:12] Satan is loosed for a little season [Rev. 20:3]
the woman is threatened by a flood from the mouth of the serpent [Rev. 12:15] the beloved city is threatened by the armies of Gog and Magog [Rev. 20:9]
the earth helps the woman, and swallows up the serpent's flood [Rev. 12:16] fowls devour the flesh of slain enemies; [Rev. 19:21] fire from heaven devours the armies of Gog and Magog [Rev. 20:9]
the dragon is wroth with the woman, and makes war with the remnant of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [Rev. 12:17] the devil is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone [Rev. 20:10]


Doug


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #342 on: December 27, 2011, 09:34:21 AM »
What does this mean?


 15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

 20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

 21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

 22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

--Eze 37



Who is Judah?  Who is Joseph [Ephraim]?  When were they divided into two kingdoms?

Is this an end time prophecy?

Is it related to this scrpture?

John 6:25 I  tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:56:02 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #343 on: December 27, 2011, 05:20:20 PM »
A prophecy in Amos:

11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

--Amos 9

Amos is making this prophecy at a time when the northern kingdom has been taken into captivity in Assyria.  Amos is talking to the little kingdom of Judah which still remains in the land [to be removed itself to Babylon and then returned] and he is telling them that sometime in the future, God will raise up the tabernacle of David.

Now to the New Testament:  Acts 15

The words of Peter:

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith

These are the words of James:

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.  Acts 15



This is saying that this bringing in of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of the Amos prophecy, and that the Gentiles that Jesus is bringing in, joined to the Messianic Jews,  represents the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David.

What is the tabernacle of David?  It is the three-sided tent which contains the ark of the Covenant on display for all the world to see.

The twelve tribes of Israel re-united under Christ represent the tabernacle of David.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:35:26 PM by Molly »

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #344 on: December 27, 2011, 06:06:58 PM »
What does this mean?


 15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

 20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

 21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

 22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

--Eze 37



Who is Judah?  Who is Joseph [Ephraim]?  When were they divided into two kingdoms?



In the reigns of David and Solomon the 12 tribes were united under one kingdom but that unity ended after Solomon and the northern 10 tribes revolted from the house of David under Jeroboam son of Nebat, an Ephraimite.
 
The later biblical history includes accounts of the reigns of the kings of both Israel and of Judah which remained loyal to the house of David.

 When Ezekiel wrote his prophecy the people of both kingdoms had been removed from the land of promise. They lived in what is now Iraq, and in various other countries.
 
In his prophecy, Ezekiel showed the whole house of Israel would be gathered from among the heathen, and they would return to the land promised to their forefathers, and would be reunited under David, (who represents Christ, as Christ has inherited David's throne).
 
Is this an end time prophecy?


The meaning of all this is discussed by Patrick Fairbairn, in "Ezekiel and the book of his prophecy: an exposition" [T. & T. Clark, 1855]  pp. 408-412.

Fairbairn stated:

The whole people of Israel had been represented as participating in the regenerating efficacy of the spirit of life, which was to be given from above: and, as the direct result of this was to unite them to God, so its secondary operation could not fail to be, to unite them in brotherly concord with each other. For the true covenant-people must form but one body, as they can only have one Head; and hence, as the necessary shell for preserving this great truth, it was so strictly enjoined of old, that they should have but one temple, one high-priest, one king, and one commonwealth.

In the Church, believers are brought into the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Christ, who is both our King and our high priest. Paul said in Eph. 2:11-16:

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The barrier in the temple that separated Jews and Gentiles is broken down; believers of all ethnic background are under one Head, who is Jesus, and are brought into one "commonwealth."

The promises to Joseph, and to Judah, (eternal throne) and to Levi, (perpetual priesthood) and all the other promises of God apply to Jesus and to those who are in Christ, the Church. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [ 2 Corinthians 1:20]

What about the promise of restoration to the land? The Old Covenant promise of the land is a shadow and type of spiritual, eternal things, as Jacob alluded to when he said, while blessing Joseph, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren." [Genesis 49:26] The high mountains suggest these blessings are high, and lofty, and of a spiritual nature. In Isaiah, God said, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." [Isaiah 55:9] And Jacob refers to the hills as "everlasting," which points us to the eternal duration of the promises, that the mountains of Israel represent. This is why, I believe, Ezekiel said, "I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;" [Ez. 37:22] the mountains of Israel are symbolic of the promises of Israel, the spiritual things promised to the saints. This is the "better country" mentioned in Hebrews 11:16. This includes the spiritual truths that are revealed in the Scriptures; whereas other lands represent the false beliefs of other people. Being removed from the land of promise represents the people being removed from the true faith, and instead dwelling in the darkness, superstition, and ignorance of the pagan nations who did not know God. There is a parallel to Adam and Eve being expelled from Eden. They were denied access to the tree of life. Restoration to the promised land represents returning to the truth and a right understanding of the Gospel, as understanding the truth is one of the things Jesus promised his disciples.
   
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



Is it related to this scrpture?

John 6:25 I  tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Certainly. The "dead" includes those who are spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The "heavenly places" corresponds to the "better country" of Hebrews 11:16.

Doug

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4286
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #345 on: December 27, 2011, 07:18:57 PM »
Great posts Doug.


An interesting side note. When Jeroboam was made king of the ten tribes, it was by a prophetic utterance. God offered him a throne like unto David's in perpetuity(1 Kings 11:31). Jeroboam, however, when he became king, feared that if he allowed Israel to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would go back under Rehobam, son of Solomon(another wicked king). In order to thwart this possibility(instead of trusting the promise and purpose of God), he forbade the Israelites to worship with their brothers in Jerusalem upon Zion. He set up a temple in Samaria. He set up two 'golden calvels", one each in Dan and Beersheba(northern and southern gates of Israel) and said,"These are your god's Oh Israel!" This was the source of the Samaritan religion, of which Jesus spoke, to the Samaritan woman, "You Samaritan's do no know what you worship"'(and the reason why the parable of the "good Samaritan" was such an insult to the Pharisees).

The Levites reacted so he drove them out of the land, set up a new priesthood, set up a new religion "and sought to change the days and the times (feasts and festivals new moons and sabbaths)". This is, spiritually speaking, what denominationalism and sectarianism is doing today "sinning after the sins of Jerobaom" who became a by-word and standard of iniquity refferred to by the prophets through out the rest of Israel's history(1 Kings 12:26-32).

It is also prototypical of the spirit of anti-Christ, "setting himself in the temple" to commit an "abomination of desolation"(1 Kings 13:34).

The worship and sacrifice of calves, and the making of "golden calves" hearkened back also to Cain and Abel. The calves symbolizing wealth and production, the lamb symbolizing sacrificial love- as the foundations of community. They worshipped the works of their own hands, their credo being, "Am I my brother's keeper?"


Sort of like the church buildings and organizations today that serve as monuments to man, rather than offerings to God.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 07:24:23 PM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline redhotmagma

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #346 on: December 27, 2011, 07:40:23 PM »
Great posts Doug.


An interesting side note. When Jeroboam was made king of the ten tribes, it was by a prophetic utterance. God offered him a throne like unto David's in perpetuity(1 Kings 11:31). Jeroboam, however, when he became king, feared that if he allowed Israel to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would go back under Rehobam, son of Solomon(another wicked king). In order to thwart this possibility(instead of trusting the promise and purpose of God), he forbade the Israelites to worship with their brothers in Jerusalem upon Zion. He set up a temple in Samaria. He set up two 'golden calvels", one each in Dan and Beersheba(northern and southern gates of Israel) and said,"These are your god's Oh Israel!" This was the source of the Samaritan religion, of which Jesus spoke, to the Samaritan woman, "You Samaritan's do no know what you worship"'(and the reason why the parable of the "good Samaritan" was such an insult to the Pharisees).

The Levites reacted so he drove them out of the land, set up a new priesthood, set up a new religion "and sought to change the days and the times (feasts and festivals new moons and sabbaths)". This is, spiritually speaking, what denominationalism and sectarianism is doing today "sinning after the sins of Jerobaom" who became a by-word and standard of iniquity refferred to by the prophets through out the rest of Israel's history(1 Kings 12:26-32).

It is also prototypical of the spirit of anti-Christ, "setting himself in the temple" to commit an "abomination of desolation"(1 Kings 13:34).

The worship and sacrifice of calves, and the making of "golden calves" hearkened back also to Cain and Abel. The calves symbolizing wealth and production, the lamb symbolizing sacrificial love- as the foundations of community. They worshipped the works of their own hands, their credo being, "Am I my brother's keeper?"


Sort of like the church buildings and organizations today that serve as monuments to man, rather than offerings to God.

those calves likely represented the cherubim or were cherubim.  God who sits enthroned between the cherubim, he may have been trying to say that between those cherubim is where god dwells.

I don't think what I said changes anything you just wrote, especially since the word cherub may come from to plow.  the root KRB in aramaic is plow, thus calves (this is the best explanation I've read to the origin of the word cherub).

The Israelites said the same thing these are your gods that brought you up from Egypt, when they fashioned the golden calf in the wilderness.  They may have seen the cherubim in the cloud leading them out of egypt (as seen in Ezekiels vision)

I agree especially about the spirit of anti-christ setting himself in the temple, as I see the cherubim representing our flesh, they are called beasts in Revelation, to take the mark of the beast is to basically worship your self/flesh

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #347 on: December 27, 2011, 08:43:21 PM »
Quote from: Doug
When Ezekiel wrote his prophecy the people of both kingdoms had been removed from the land of promise. They lived in what is now Iraq, and in various other countries.

In his prophecy, Ezekiel showed the whole house of Israel would be gathered from among the heathen, and they would return to the land promised to their forefathers, and would be reunited under David, (who represents Christ, as Christ has inherited David's throne).

Around 800 bc the northern 10 tribes, the kingdom of Israel,  were taken into captivity to Assyria.  They never returned.

Then around 600 bc the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into Babylon.  They did return around 100 years later and rebuilt the temple.  If they had not returned, we would have no OT Bible.

But, meanwhile, the northern tribes, house of Israel, have become Gentiles over the 900 years or so before Christ walks on the earth.

So you are saying [confirming] that Ezekiel says the house of Israel [Joseph/Ephraim] will be gathered from the heathen and joined to the house of Judah, --two sticks which shall be joined and held as one stick in his hand.  In other words, the lost northern kingdom shall be found and joined to the southern kingdom of Judah.

That makes Eze 37 a double prophecy because this began with the cross--The joining of the two [Jew and Gentile] into one new man--and will end with the resurrection and the manifestation of the sons of God.  Yes? 

In other words, the Gentile Christians are the stick of Joseph [Ephraim], the lost northern ten tribes--they would have to be to fulfill this prophecy.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 08:47:20 PM by Molly »

Offline Deena

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 223
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #348 on: December 27, 2011, 11:38:51 PM »
To aleax:  I read the Dora Van Assen text and very much enjoyed it. J. Preston Eby has a similar argument on God's law of circularity. This idea of our timeless God working through various ages bears witness with me and brings peace. The only thing I dislike is the statement that God matures us through suffering. This makes me a bit afraid of Him. Does a God of love have no other means to teach us? I would think love a better motivator.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4286
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #349 on: December 27, 2011, 11:48:43 PM »
Great posts Doug.


An interesting side note. When Jeroboam was made king of the ten tribes, it was by a prophetic utterance. God offered him a throne like unto David's in perpetuity(1 Kings 11:31). Jeroboam, however, when he became king, feared that if he allowed Israel to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would go back under Rehobam, son of Solomon(another wicked king). In order to thwart this possibility(instead of trusting the promise and purpose of God), he forbade the Israelites to worship with their brothers in Jerusalem upon Zion. He set up a temple in Samaria. He set up two 'golden calvels", one each in Dan and Beersheba(northern and southern gates of Israel) and said,"These are your god's Oh Israel!" This was the source of the Samaritan religion, of which Jesus spoke, to the Samaritan woman, "You Samaritan's do no know what you worship"'(and the reason why the parable of the "good Samaritan" was such an insult to the Pharisees).

The Levites reacted so he drove them out of the land, set up a new priesthood, set up a new religion "and sought to change the days and the times (feasts and festivals new moons and sabbaths)". This is, spiritually speaking, what denominationalism and sectarianism is doing today "sinning after the sins of Jerobaom" who became a by-word and standard of iniquity refferred to by the prophets through out the rest of Israel's history(1 Kings 12:26-32).

It is also prototypical of the spirit of anti-Christ, "setting himself in the temple" to commit an "abomination of desolation"(1 Kings 13:34).

The worship and sacrifice of calves, and the making of "golden calves" hearkened back also to Cain and Abel. The calves symbolizing wealth and production, the lamb symbolizing sacrificial love- as the foundations of community. They worshipped the works of their own hands, their credo being, "Am I my brother's keeper?"


Sort of like the church buildings and organizations today that serve as monuments to man, rather than offerings to God.

those calves likely represented the cherubim or were cherubim.  God who sits enthroned between the cherubim, he may have been trying to say that between those cherubim is where god dwells.

I don't think what I said changes anything you just wrote, especially since the word cherub may come from to plow.  the root KRB in aramaic is plow, thus calves (this is the best explanation I've read to the origin of the word cherub).

The Israelites said the same thing these are your gods that brought you up from Egypt, when they fashioned the golden calf in the wilderness.  They may have seen the cherubim in the cloud leading them out of egypt (as seen in Ezekiels vision)

I agree especially about the spirit of anti-christ setting himself in the temple, as I see the cherubim representing our flesh, they are called beasts in Revelation, to take the mark of the beast is to basically worship your self/flesh

Thats pretty interesting. In the light of the "You were the anointed cherub" prophesy, whether on sees that as Adam or Lucifer or "self"- actually all apply, wheels within wheels y'know ;o)

Setting up an image of that which is real, in order to replace the real with an image that becomes an icon filled with the abominations of men while "outwardly" having  an "appearance" of godliness- all in tune with an idolatrous generation having a form of godliness but denying the power of it- which is to transform into the image of the son of God.... "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters"

Also goes to why Elijah chose bulls for the sacrifice in the face off with the priests of Baal, since they were full of bull, teaching a lot of bull, and the god of bull should have answered them by fire , but didn't. :laughing7:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 11:59:07 PM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com