Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 52775 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #275 on: December 14, 2011, 11:53:07 PM »
Quote
So . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?

The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug.  It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say.  Job was a righteous man.  God said so, and God should know.  He didn't deserve what was happening to him.


...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]

"It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say." 

"Job was a righteous man." 
"God said so, and God should know
"He didn't deserve what was happening to him."

Job was a righteous man, God said so, and God should know, and then you say HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM.............................Then why in the world did God do to Job what he did to him?
A bet with Satan.

I find no evidence of a bet or wager.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #276 on: December 15, 2011, 12:00:39 AM »
Job 1:6-12 (ACV)
6) Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7) And LORD said to Satan, From where do thou come? Then Satan answered LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
8) And LORD said to Satan, Have thou considered my servant Job? For there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.
9) Then Satan answered LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?
10) Have thou not made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he has, on every side? Thou have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11) But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12) And LORD said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in thy power, only upon himself do not put forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of LORD.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #277 on: December 15, 2011, 12:24:00 AM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life.

I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.

He says without it, he would be naked.   Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead?  Those who are not saved in this age?

Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.

we go in naked and we go out naked.
bible scripture

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #278 on: December 15, 2011, 12:34:15 AM »
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My  :2c: Blessings....

I think there are two types of nakedness as expressed in holy scripture.

One is the nakedness of shame that evil doers will experience, lest he walk naked and see his shame. That you speak of
The other nakedness is having no temple to dwell in, until the resurection of all those who sleep in christ and those who remain alive.


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #279 on: December 15, 2011, 06:58:42 AM »
Did Job know Jesus?



Rev. Allen Brummel

Job: Confessing, 'My Redeemer Lives'"

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August 2, 1998; No. 2900


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Today we turn to Job 19:25, 26, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

In the preceding verses and chapters, Job began to plead with the three friends for pity. His natural strength has become more and more feeble, his voice became weaker and weaker. And a feeling of sorrow is apparent in his description of the suffering, in his pleading with his friends to be sympathetic. It is enough that Jehovah has touched him. Now these so-called friends continue to persecute him and to usurp to themselves a divine authority by which they act toward him as if they are God. They do not look upon him as an equal, but assume a false, elevated position. Job pleaded with them to be honest with him, to be fair with him.

Now Job expresses a higher hope and desire in which he finds his comfort. His comfort is not in the words of his friends, but in Jehovah his God. Jehovah God will avenge Job's blood against his accusers. For Jehovah has sent a Redeemer. And in that Redeemer is found Job's hope.

The three so-called friends have passed judgment upon Job. But Job now demonstrates in this passage that that judgment means nothing compared to the judgment of God. God has spoken His judgment. God will send His Son to take that judgment of sin upon Himself. Job, therefore, is confident as he stands before Jehovah that Jehovah is merciful-more merciful than his friends who have tried to console him.

He therefore directs us to the idea of a Mediator: "I know that my Redeemer liveth." A redeemer is one who mediates for another, one who takes upon himself the cause of another in order to help him. The mediator pays the price of redemption. Most commonly this was done with respect to slaves. When a slave found himself in bondage, the only possibility of his being freed was if another came and bought him, paid the price which he was worth to his master, and thereby gave him his freedom.

The word "mediator" suggests "bondage." It suggests an obligation which cannot be met. Job implies that he is in such a situation. He cannot meet the obligation which is necessary. He cannot pay the price which God demands. Unless there be another, a mediator, his cause is hopeless.

Job reveals here his knowledge of his own sin and debt and his knowledge of the righteous judgment of God. He knows that he deserves God's curse and condemnation. God has every reason to condemn him to eternal woe in hell because he is, by nature, depraved, unworthy of God's grace and mercy.

As Job speaks, he speaks as one who has already found that Mediator. He has found that One who is willing to stand up for him, that One who is willing to pay the ransom and deliver him. He has found the One because of whom he does not need to experience the punishment of hell. He has found the One who atones for sin, who delivers from bondage, the One who assures him of eternal blessedness in glory.

Job has found Christ. It is Christ alone who is the Savior, the perfect, eternal Redeemer. And Job here speaks prophetically of Christ as he saw Him by revelation, as the One who would yet come. But he speaks of Him with such confidence, as though that Redeemer had already come; as though that promise had already been realized; as though the Word had already become flesh.

With that conviction in his heart, he confesses, "My Redeemer lives!" Not merely a redeemer, but my Redeemer-the One who has come to deliver me from the bondage of my sin, my suffering, and my affliction, the One who stands in my place. My Redeemer has come.

And He lives. He has taken me into covenant fellowship with Himself. Jehovah dwelt in Job by His Spirit, renewing him, turning him from death into life. And Jehovah was continually turning Job away from sin into the service of the living God.

Oh, Job remained a sinner. He knew the depravity of his own heart. He was deeply conscious of the fact that by nature he could only sin and could only do that which was contrary to God's law.

But God had implanted in Job a love for God which was evident already at the moment when he was made childless. He arose and worshiped when he confessed, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb. Naked I return thither." Here was a servant of God, perfect and upright, one whom God had taken into covenant fellowship with Him. And within that covenant fellowship the servant of

God expresses, "Who is my Judge?" The answer is: It is God, my covenant Friend. It is God, my intimate, personal companion. He is the One who judges. Before Him I stand. Not before these so-called friends.

http://www.reformedwitnesshour.org/1998/1998aug02.html

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #280 on: December 15, 2011, 05:04:07 PM »

...
The thousand year millennium is all about him returning "here".  I no longer can accept that. 


In fact, John says that the saints who are "beheaded" for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who do not worship the beast, or his image, "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." He does not say that they reign over nations on the earth. Neither does John say anything about Jesus returning to the earth, for the thousand year reign to begin, as premillennialism teaches. That doctrine denies the reign of Christ as Lord over all at the present time. It says Jesus is yet to become king, and is currently "uncrowned." He has to descend to the earthly Jerusalem, it is said, and he will reign there as king. Ethnic Jews, they allege, will then be doted on by Gentiles.

But Jesus possesses far greater authority and power than the premillennialists admit. He has the key of David, and "openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth." Only when Jesus opens our minds, can we understand the truth. For many, the mysteries of God remain hidden, and shut. The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." When heaven is shut, the gifts of God are withheld.

Premillennialists say that thousand year millennium is all about him returning "here," but that doctrine is not found in Revelation 20. Their minds are shut to the real meaning of John's prophecy; they are among the armies of those who encompass the camp of the saints, the beloved city, Revelation 20:8-9.

John connects the thousand years with Ezekiel's prophecy of Gog and Magog. This is where premillennialism goes astray, as they often separate the thousand years from the assault by Gog and Magog which comes at the end of it.

Ezekiel's prophecy says nothing about a thousand years, or reigning with Christ. Yet, before the time of Ezekiel, the Jews had previously lived under kings of the line of David. Because of their iniquity, they were removed to other lands. The prophets foretold a restoration, another exodus, that would eclipse the first one when Israel came out of Egypt. Perhaps John alludes to the reigns of the kings of Judah and Israel, and applies the historical lessons to the church. Ezekiel wrote:

Ezekiel 39:25-28
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The Jews were taken into captivity in Babylon, after several centuries of monarchy; the church too, after the monarchy of Christ's rule during the apostolic era, went into a kind of captivity. The Reformers recognized the church as being captive in the Babylon of Revelation. In Revelation 18:4, John says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." This Babylon is not limited to Rome, but includes all false religion, flawed interpretations, and superstition. Surely it also includes tens of thousands of sects and denominations.

God brings the saints out of captivity, and destroys his enemies, throughout the history of the church, and in the lives of individual Christians.

The thousand year reign is the privilege of those who are "beheaded." This has to do with obedience to Christ, who is Lord over all. Paul wrote: 
   
2 Corinthians 10:2-5
But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

To bring every thought into captivity, is mastery over what Paul called the old man. He contrasts the "old man" with the "new man" which is the creation of God.

Colossians 3:9-11
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

In The NIV Application Commentary: Ezekiel, Iain M. Duguid wrote: [pp. 453-454]

The point of Ezekiel 38--39 is not that at some distand point in future history these particular nations will oppose Israel, while others (America? Britain?) will rally to her aid. Rather, these seven nations from the ends of the earth, from all four points of the compass, represent symbolically a supreme attempt by the united forces of evil to crush the peace of God's people. This, not coincidentally, is the interpretation given to "Gog and Magog" in Revelation 20:8: They represent "the nations in the four corners of the earth," whom Satan gathers for the final battle against God's people, the city he loves. Their defeat in Revelation is the prerequisite for the establishment of the new Jerusalem, the heavenly city of Revelation 21, which itself has many points of contact with Ezekiel's visionary temple in Ezekiel 40--48.

Doug

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #281 on: December 15, 2011, 11:22:18 PM »
God brings the saints out of captivity, and destroys his enemies, throughout the history of the church, and in the lives of individual Christians.


Who are God's enemies?

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #282 on: December 16, 2011, 12:52:14 AM »
God brings the saints out of captivity, and destroys his enemies, throughout the history of the church, and in the lives of individual Christians.


Who are God's enemies?

If God did not have enemies, how could he have victories?

In the parable of the nobleman and the ten servants, in Luke 19:12-27, those who used the money that they had received wisely, and gained more with it, were commended, but the fellow who kept his money wrapped in a napkin, was not. His pound was taken away from him. Jesus said,

Luke 19:26-27
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Paul spoke of "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God." [2 Corinthians 10:5]

Also in Ephesians 6:12, he said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

The "darkness of this world" resists the light and the truth.

Another thing that Scripture calls an enemy is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Isaiah said,

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

The following section of Revelation describes Christ making war, which implies that there are enemies which need to be defeated.

Revelation 19:11-16, 19-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
 
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Many Scriptures refer to Psalm 110:1, which says God's enemies will be made his footstool.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

It is referred to in Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:43, Acts 2:35, Hebrews 1:13, & 10:13.

Doug
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 12:56:53 AM by Doug »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #283 on: December 16, 2011, 04:32:25 PM »
So . .according to you, men, the very beings God called into "being" are also his enemies.  God is love, but yet, love creates children that it can hate?  God knows the end from the beginning, so God "knowingly" creates beings that he hates?  How can we say we are "cherished" by God, that Grace is greater than sin . . .but yet to those to whom Grace is afforded to, they are also the enemy of the very one that created them.  God made us human and yet by being human, he made us enemies to himself.

Really?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #284 on: December 16, 2011, 04:39:45 PM »



Ephesians 6:12;
Because your fight has not been with flesh and blood, but with Principalities and The Rulers and The Powers of this dark world and with wicked spirits which are under Heaven.







Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #285 on: December 16, 2011, 05:55:53 PM »
My point exactly.  And the sister passage to that . . .
2 Corinthians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)


But rather than attribute these things to God's spirit fighting against various levels of demonic influences, perhaps we should take a closer look at the "message" of the passage.  The next verse kinda brings it home for me.

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, (the carnal mind is at enmity against God) and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

What so many continue to attribute to demons and devils, really, it's our "imaginations" and our "thoughts" that we're arguing against and our natural reasoning is what argues against spiritual truths.

 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
 7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
 8For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:


For me, this affirms what I've seen as well.  God is not out to destroy men.  We are spirits living in bodies of flesh.  As such, these bodies are influenced by both flesh and spiritual experiences.  But God does not destroy those who are bound by their own flesh.  His enemy is not people.  It's the carnality that is manifesting through them.  That's what hell is all about, it's the place of purging in this realm to bring us into a transitional place of purification, not to destroy, but to restore "to" the redemptive finality that the cross of Jesus established for us.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 05:59:14 PM by Nathan »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #286 on: December 16, 2011, 06:30:57 PM »
Where John wrote, in Revelation 19:21, "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth," I think it is obvious that the sword that proceeds from the mouth of Jesus is not a literal one.

The sword is his word, as Paul showed  when he wrote, "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God," [Ephesians 6:17] and "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." [Hebrews 4:12]

The word of God is the sword, with which Christ "slays" those referred to as the "remnant" in Revelation 19:21. Just as the "sword" is a non-literal one, but a metaphor, or a symbol, there are other things in that verse which need to be interpreted.

In traditional warfare, in the days of the prophets, kings would lead armies which included footmen and cavalry, warriors mounted upon horses, and chariots, and armed with shields, and weapons such as bows and arrows, spears, and clubs. It all sounds quite gruesome to us, in an age when there are people who sit in comfortable offices in various parts the USA, who guide drones that fire missiles at carefully selected human targets thousands of miles away, then go home to dinner with the wife and kids, and to watch movies or the news on TV.

In the old days, warfare was more bloody, and one might easily get his clothes splashed with blood. Jesus is described having his garments "dipped in blood."

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

A literal sword is kept sharp, to make it more effective for cutting flesh and drawing blood, and the spiritual sword is said to be "sharper than any twoedged sword." But a Bible is not effective for literally cutting flesh and drawing blood. Some spiritual meaning has to be sought. The things that the Scriptures are effective against are false teachings. They are figuratively slain by the Word; and these may therefore be represented in prophecy by the figure of invading armies, generally enemies that come against Jerusalem, the name given to the church in the New Testament. [Hebrews 12:22] An example is the prophecies of Zechariah 12, and 14:1-3. It would be absurd to say that all nations will gather against the earthly Jerusalem, together with horses, camels, asses, and mules. If that were the case, what would those animals eat? Would there be water for them to drink? Water is already scarce in the area. And there are many other difficulties in a literal approach.

Similarly in Ezekiel's prophecy of Gog and Magog, the invaders are all mounted upon horses. In the sixth trumpet, an huge army of 200,000,000 horsemen is described. The horses have heads of lions, and their tails are serpents, and have heads.

In Psalm 32:9, David said, "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." This could lead to an interpretation of the horses featured in so many prophecies; they represent people with no understanding.

In the New Testament also, false teachers are compared to "brute beasts." Peter wrote, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" [2 Peter 2:12] Jude said "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." [Jude 1:10]

Perhaps the riders or the "horsemen" are the dogmas that the false teachers are guided by. Some even say they are spirits. In Revelation 12, the warfare is said to be between armies of angels. The armies in Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 12 & 14, and similar prophecies must be of a spiritual nature, which is also suggested by Paul in Ephesians 6:12. In Ezekiel 39, the corpses of the slain are buried for 7 months, and their weapons are burned as fuel for 7 years. But then, the prophecy describes a great feast, to which the birds and beasts are invited, where they eat the flesh and drink the blood of men. This is not likely meant in a literal manner; the feast for the birds seems to contradict the idea that the rotting corpses had generated a great stench that "stopped the noses of the passengers," and their previous burial in the valley of Hamongog.

In Zechariah 14, the animals are afflicted with an awful plague. This too is spiritual, I think; the "plague" represents infection by false interpretations and heresies, which tend to be very contagious. Like an infectious disease, false teachings may be very hard to get rid of, as several people have found, when departing from hyper-preterism.

Zechariah says God will "smite every horse with astonishment" which could hardly apply to literal horses. What would be the point? But it would certainly be appropriate for the judgment of false teachers.

Zechariah 12:4
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

The "house of Judah," I think, alludes to the church, as in the New Testament, Paul identifies those who are Jews in a spiritual sense, [Romans 2:29] and says "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]

Doug
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 06:41:20 PM by Doug »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #287 on: December 16, 2011, 08:05:36 PM »
That's been my point all along . . it's all spiritual.  Spirit to spirit . . .the principles are not for "men" to attempt to follow, but instead, it's to "illuminate" the nature of God in every one of us and how he operates in us.  The more I understand it's not me but him, the more I "want" to lay me aside in all areas and let Him manifest his nature in those as well.  But when we start putting dates and literal groups of people to prophesies that were already spoken to a generation 2000+ years ago, we can easily be distracted from the fact that God isn't seeing men as his enemy, but instead it's the man "in" men. 

A sword didn't literally come out of Jesus mouth and that same sword isn't going to literally wipe out literal people who are literally rising up against Jerusalem.  But for me, the "New" Jerusalem is two-fold.  On the one hand, it's a corporate body in which we are all living stones.  In another "dimension" of that, there is a New Jerusalem "in" me that other natures "of" me attempt to surround and eradicate .. .

Where as the horses depicting people "may" fit in some sense, the patterns, if they are spiritual, won't change from one situation to another.  Which is then saying that the 4 riders with different colored horses doesn't seem to fit that mold as much.  For me, a horse in prophetic terms, or in spiritual symbolism, represents power and strength rather than people.  `Their thundering hooves invokes fear and trembling to those in their path.  I do see how the bridle can come into play with the passage you've quoted and I would even venture to say that "that" might be something to keep an eye out for when horses are referred to in other passages . .the bridle could change the message to indicate the control of man.

In one of your quotes, you shared . . .
and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 
I'm not seeing how the application that horses are people would fit with this as it's already stating that the horse is owned by the people.  But when I see this to be as "power and strength" it then fits again because God is saying he'll remove the power that the people have built up in themselves when he turns his eyes, the windows of the soul, illumination, understanding . . .when the light of God illuminates the house of Judah . . .he didn't say Israel, . . .Levi . .or David . . . but "Judah".  Judah was the tribe established at the one and only entrance into the temple which was located "at the east" which speaks of "resurrection" and Judah literally means "praise".  What is the power of the people if it is not our "minds"?  When God begins to bring illumination, bring his glory to the resurrection of Jesus, the offspring of Judah, the mind of men will be blinded by it as well as blind "to" it . .they won't see because they're already embracing what they "think".  Rather than what they can "hear". 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #288 on: December 16, 2011, 08:23:24 PM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life.

I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.

He says without it, he would be naked.   Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead?  Those who are not saved in this age?

Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.

 :bigGrin: 

C Miclaus and L Mize - "We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!

Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body)."
   
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127787.html#msg127787

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127844.html#msg127844

Do you think that all of our sin comes from this flesh body?  And, that without it, we will be without sin?

But we know there are evil spirits, the Bible talks of them.

Here's what I'm thinking--the cross is so powerful that everyone is preserved alive and aware after death.

But only those in Christ receive heavenly bodies and are in heaven.

The souls that are naked go somewhere else.

This is sort of a Catholic purgatory idea, except it would be all souls.

[The Catholics just let the ones they call saints into heaven itself without purgatory. ]
 

Hi Molly.  No, I personally don't believe all sin comes from the "body" and without it we will be sin-free, or that even with our new body, that makes us sin-free.  I just believe the immortal body is the end result, the fait accompli of the end of the process (the saving of spirit, then soul, then [redemption of the] body.

Yes, I'm really believing there is some intermediary state/place, a "holding place" - somewhere/something besides rotting in the grave [spirit goes to God/"if you believe in Me you will NEVER die"] and everyone instantly either going to "heaven or hell".  The resurrections come in there somewhere, and since those in Christ never die, then IMO, there must be another option.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #289 on: December 16, 2011, 08:33:40 PM »
Just curious, but why "not" believe that  . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #290 on: December 16, 2011, 08:58:23 PM »
Just curious, but why "not" believe that  . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Because we see the existence of evil spirits who are evil without flesh?

 :dontknow:

Offline lomarah

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #291 on: December 16, 2011, 09:06:06 PM »
Just curious, but why "not" believe that  . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Because we see the existence of evil spirits who are evil without flesh?

 :dontknow:

Very good point! Nathan had me wondering for a sec but yeah, you're right.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #292 on: December 16, 2011, 09:12:45 PM »
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently.  I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.).   I believe the sinful (corrupt) nature and flesh are sometimes used interchangeably, but that the primary thing is the nature.  That's what I believe, and then I looked up a few things just now.  I found that sarkos is used 38 times in the NT, and is almost always translated as "flesh".  However, a couple of times it is sort of clarified in definition with "carnal ordinances" and "preferred will".   

In the I Cor. 5:5 passage, where Paul is turning the one over to satan for destruction so his spirit will be saved, again most translations say "flesh".  A couple, the New Living Translation and God's Word translation say "sinful nature destroyed" and "corrupt nature destroyed".  IMO, they got it more accurate.  I'm not saying the rest of them saying "flesh" is wrong, because IMO, that's sort of an accepted description of our sinfulness - but again, I tend to believe it really boils down to a nature or will, not just skin, hair, and muscles, etc.

 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #293 on: December 16, 2011, 09:20:48 PM »


The chapter of Romans 7 fits well here!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #294 on: December 16, 2011, 09:31:06 PM »
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently.  I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.).
I agree.
The body of Jesus was like that of all other Jews/people.
A body is just animated dead dust.
The "thing" that animates the body is the "thing" that makes choices. Either good or bad.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #295 on: December 16, 2011, 10:21:03 PM »
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently.  I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.).   I believe the sinful (corrupt) nature and flesh are sometimes used interchangeably, but that the primary thing is the nature.  That's what I believe, and then I looked up a few things just now.  I found that sarkos is used 38 times in the NT, and is almost always translated as "flesh".  However, a couple of times it is sort of clarified in definition with "carnal ordinances" and "preferred will".   

In the I Cor. 5:5 passage, where Paul is turning the one over to satan for destruction so his spirit will be saved, again most translations say "flesh".  A couple, the New Living Translation and God's Word translation say "sinful nature destroyed" and "corrupt nature destroyed".  IMO, they got it more accurate.  I'm not saying the rest of them saying "flesh" is wrong, because IMO, that's sort of an accepted description of our sinfulness - but again, I tend to believe it really boils down to a nature or will, not just skin, hair, and muscles, etc.

 

Interesting, thanks Jabcat.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #296 on: December 16, 2011, 10:29:56 PM »
Just curious, but why "not" believe that  . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Because we see the existence of evil spirits who are evil without flesh?

 :dontknow:

"you" maybe, but I'm still not sold on that one.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #297 on: December 16, 2011, 10:37:33 PM »
I agree that it's the sinful "nature" that we're talking about . . .but the evidence of sin is death . . .death is not eternal, it's only temporary.  As is our flesh . . hence, only through flesh does sin manifest . . .for that matter, only through the "EYES" of flesh can sin be acknowledged.  In the spirit, sin doesn't exist.  May sound controversial, but sin literally means to "miss the mark" and that is all.  When you're in the spirit,  . .the spirit "is" the mark . . .or at least the path of the mark, the mark is Christ . . kinda hard to be in the mark and missing the mark at the same time ain't it?


Oh, speaking of which, I have no idea what thread it was on, it was a couple of days ago . . .but it had to do with  . .oh .. it was the discussion about Job and all of that and the comment was about him seeing Jesus.

We had our last Bible study this past Wednesday night and in it we've been in Genesis for a while now and we're up to Jacob's ladder . . .there's SOO much going on there but the coolest part for me was after he got up the next morning and he took the stone he had laid his head on and he poured oil on it . . .THAT was Jacob manifesting Jesus . . .The Rock is Jesus himself, the oil being poured is "anointing" and that's what "Christ" literally means . .the anointed . . .so when Jacob took the rock and anointed it, God is telling us that the "house of God" (Bethel) "Is" Jesus Christ . . .I just thought that was really cool how God uses the natural and reveals the spiritual on so many levels.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #298 on: December 16, 2011, 10:47:16 PM »
I agree that it's the sinful "nature" that we're talking about . . .but the evidence of sin is death . . .death is not eternal, it's only temporary.  As is our flesh . . hence, only through flesh does sin manifest . . .for that matter, only through the "EYES" of flesh can sin be acknowledged.  In the spirit, sin doesn't exist.  May sound controversial, but sin literally means to "miss the mark" and that is all.  When you're in the spirit,  . .the spirit "is" the mark . . .or at least the path of the mark, the mark is Christ . . kinda hard to be in the mark and missing the mark at the same time ain't it?


Oh, speaking of which, I have no idea what thread it was on, it was a couple of days ago . . .but it had to do with  . .oh .. it was the discussion about Job and all of that and the comment was about him seeing Jesus.

We had our last Bible study this past Wednesday night and in it we've been in Genesis for a while now and we're up to Jacob's ladder . . .there's SOO much going on there but the coolest part for me was after he got up the next morning and he took the stone he had laid his head on and he poured oil on it . . .THAT was Jacob manifesting Jesus . . .The Rock is Jesus himself, the oil being poured is "anointing" and that's what "Christ" literally means . .the anointed . . .so when Jacob took the rock and anointed it, God is telling us that the "house of God" (Bethel) "Is" Jesus Christ . . .I just thought that was really cool how God uses the natural and reveals the spiritual on so many levels.
Yes, it is really cool.

And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  John 1

Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #299 on: December 17, 2011, 12:32:08 AM »


Yes, it is really cool.

And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  John 1

Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.

Genesis 28:12-13
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

In the dream, the ladder reached up to heaven, and the Lord stood above it. The ladder, then, is not in the place of Christ. Rather, the land where Jacob slept, and the entire promised land, was a place where revelations from God would be given. The Old Testament contains revelations and promises made to Jacob's descendants. On John 1:51, W.D. Davies wrote:

The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.

The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. [U. of California Press 1974] p. 298.

 Doug