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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #250 on: December 14, 2011, 09:04:33 PM »
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.


Yes Amen!  Worms, and we are talking about maggots, will eat UNTIL there is no more to eat. Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach to humanity and despised by the people."
Job 25:6  How much less man--a grub, And the son of man--a worm!
Glory! Amen
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #251 on: December 14, 2011, 09:09:31 PM »
micah, you continually seem so disappointed and displeased with the forum and its members.   :dontknow:


Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #252 on: December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life. 

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #253 on: December 14, 2011, 09:25:12 PM »
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.


The word 'worms' was inserted by the translator.  It's not in the scripture.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #254 on: December 14, 2011, 09:28:46 PM »
Agreed, I suggested that a few posts up as well.  Thanks.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #255 on: December 14, 2011, 09:28:54 PM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life.

I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.

He says without it, he would be naked.   Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead?  Those who are not saved in this age?

Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #256 on: December 14, 2011, 09:31:44 PM »
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.


The word 'worms' was inserted by the translator.  It's not in the scripture.
Which verse are you refering to?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #257 on: December 14, 2011, 09:34:43 PM »
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.


The word 'worms' was inserted by the translator.  It's not in the scripture.
Which verse are you refering to?

The verse we're discussing, Job 19:26

And after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #258 on: December 14, 2011, 09:38:19 PM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life.

I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.

He says without it, he would be naked.   Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead?  Those who are not saved in this age?

Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.

 :bigGrin: 

C Miclaus and L Mize - "We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!

Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body)."
   
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127787.html#msg127787

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127844.html#msg127844

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #259 on: December 14, 2011, 09:42:36 PM »
Found it Molly. Was just about to delete my post but you've already replied.
My post still stands but obviously not for Job 19:26

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #260 on: December 14, 2011, 09:45:51 PM »
 1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


2 Cor 5

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #261 on: December 14, 2011, 09:53:18 PM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life.

I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.

He says without it, he would be naked.   Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead?  Those who are not saved in this age?

Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.

 :bigGrin: 

C Miclaus and L Mize - "We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!

Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body)."
   
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127787.html#msg127787

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127844.html#msg127844

Do you think that all of our sin comes from this flesh body?  And, that without it, we will be without sin?

But we know there are evil spirits, the Bible talks of them.

Here's what I'm thinking--the cross is so powerful that everyone is preserved alive and aware after death.

But only those in Christ receive heavenly bodies and are in heaven.

The souls that are naked go somewhere else.

This is sort of a Catholic purgatory idea, except it would be all souls.

[The Catholics just let the ones they call saints into heaven itself without purgatory. ]


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #262 on: December 14, 2011, 09:54:27 PM »
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep".  However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story. 

Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it.  God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.

Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did.  I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross;  after the cross, things changed!  The power of the cross!

 I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now.  The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something.  The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC.  Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection.  I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.

I know very little.  I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance.  In Him we have Life.

"The spirit immediately returns to God.  That means something. " It means mans BREATH returned to the one who gave it.
Should we continue to mix "spirit=breath with spirit= God" imo it will never be understood.

" will N-E-V-E-R die"  Joh 11:26 and all the living and believing into me, not not may die into the age. Believest thou this?

And just to add that if you will look as see you will find that "saved" is not in the past tense.
Now these are the words of Jesus Mat 10:22  And ye will be hated by all, because of my name,but, he that endureth throughout, the same, shall be saved.
And here is Paul, whom you say is already saved 1Co 9:27 but I am belaboring my body and leading it into slavery, lest somehow, when heralding to others, I myself may become disqualified."

Dont think Paul would have had that kind of thinking if he was already "saved." But that maybe just my opinion.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #263 on: December 14, 2011, 09:56:35 PM »
 :cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #264 on: December 14, 2011, 10:01:02 PM »
micah, you continually seem so disappointed and displeased with the forum and its members.   :dontknow:

Yeah. It's becoming like taking the same class with the same teachers every year or like Ground Hog Day. I may become a drop out and make the teachers somewhat more relieved. :dunno: :Chinscratch: :happyclap:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #265 on: December 14, 2011, 10:04:20 PM »
Micah, the English version of

"not not to die unto the age"

Is

"will never never die throughout the age."


That is why he says this:

 And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."  [Mat 28:20']

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #266 on: December 14, 2011, 10:06:15 PM »
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My  :2c: Blessings....

What are your thoughts on the heavenly body in 2 Cor 5?

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #267 on: December 14, 2011, 10:16:22 PM »
Micah, the English version of

"not not to die unto the age"

Is

"will never never die throughout the age."


That is why he says this:

 And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."  [Mat 28:20']

Amazing.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #268 on: December 14, 2011, 10:24:27 PM »
Micah, the cross was, as they say in math, an inflection point.

It changed everything.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #269 on: December 14, 2011, 10:25:42 PM »
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My  :2c: Blessings....

What are your thoughts on the heavenly body in 2 Cor 5?

To my understanding, believers have already "put on Christ", and there's way too much reference to the new body/tent, taking on immortality, the redemption of the body etc. to dismiss.   :2c:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #270 on: December 14, 2011, 10:33:24 PM »
[addendum]...there are contrasts between the (current) old, and the coming new tent/body at immortality, etc.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #271 on: December 14, 2011, 10:40:53 PM »
Molly, and actually, to get "technical", I've read the worms part is strictly an translator addition to the text.  However, he's apparently talking about when his flesh is gone, decayed - as in DEAD - yet he would still see Him.  Good summary on the actual context of the scripture.

Really awesome scrips, that do not sound parabolic.  He knew his redeemer lives and that he would see Him in His power and glory!  Hallelujah!

I've just read the whole chapter to get a closer look at the context.  The more I read the more it "felt" like he was really sounding like what Jesus experienced which them would/may have indicated that what Molly is suggesting could be true . . .until I came to "this" verse in the middle of it.

20My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth.
 21Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.


That was "not" how Jesus experienced it.  There may be "some" similarities but at no point in this does Job jump ahead to thousands of years later as what "we" perceive the latter day to be.  In my eyes he's saying "when this is all over, I'll still proclaim him as Lord".  That was Job's defense through this entire time.  He was totally unaware of why these things were happening, but he knew one thing for certain, it wasn't because of any unrighteousness in "him". 

 22Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
 23Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
 24That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
 25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

28But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
 29Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

I still think to jump to the end of "our" understanding of latter days is still taking it out of context, he's lamenting to his friends that are accusing him the terrible things that have befallen him are his own undoing and he's merely telling them, he knows who his redeemer is and he's regardless of how bad of a state he's in, in the end, which we now know the end for him was when the curse lifted and everything was once again not only restored but multiplied.

What is written here wasn't a prophetic word to "anyone".  he's merely arguing with his friends as to who is at fault. 

I'm not trying to denounce you on this, I greatly respect your understanding on things, as well as your usage of Scriptures and ability to put things together.  But this context just doesn't seem to have anything to do with the end of the world as we know it. 

So . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #272 on: December 14, 2011, 10:53:26 PM »
Quote
So . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?

The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug.  It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say.  Job was a righteous man.  God said so, and God should know.  He didn't deserve what was happening to him.


...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #273 on: December 14, 2011, 11:08:49 PM »
Quote
So . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?

The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug.  It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say.  Job was a righteous man.  God said so, and God should know.  He didn't deserve what was happening to him.


...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]

"It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say." 

"Job was a righteous man." 
"God said so, and God should know
"He didn't deserve what was happening to him."

Job was a righteous man, God said so, and God should know, and then you say HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM.............................Then why in the world did God do to Job what he did to him?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #274 on: December 14, 2011, 11:38:37 PM »
Quote
So . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?

The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug.  It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say.  Job was a righteous man.  God said so, and God should know.  He didn't deserve what was happening to him.


...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]

"It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say." 

"Job was a righteous man." 
"God said so, and God should know
"He didn't deserve what was happening to him."

Job was a righteous man, God said so, and God should know, and then you say HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM.............................Then why in the world did God do to Job what he did to him?
A bet with Satan.