Rapture dream

[jabcat]

This one was mentioned earlier by Molly, the 2 Cor. 5 passage.  I have the Christian Bible beside me right now, which reads;

For I am aware that if my earthly tent home [my temporary home ( my present body)] is demolished, I'm going to have a building [a new body] that comes from God, a home in the Last Age among the heavens that hasn't been made by hands.  For in this one [my present body] I am continually groaning, since I am continually desiring to put on, like clothes, my home that comes from heaven, and provided that I have put on these clothes [my new body], I won't be found naked [without a body].  Yes, while I am still in this tent [my present temporary body], I am continually groaning, since I am being burdened, because I don't want to be stripped [of my present body], but I want to put on the clothes [my new body], so that what is subject to dying might be swallowed up by Life. 

[Molly]

This one was mentioned earlier by Molly, the 2 Cor. 5 passage.  I have the Christian Bible beside me right now, which reads;

For I am aware that if my earthly tent home [my temporary home ( my present body)] is demolished, I'm going to have a building [a new body] that comes from God, a home in the Last Age among the heavens that hasn't been made by hands.  For in this one [my present body] I am continually groaning, since I am continually desiring to put on, like clothes, my home that comes from heaven, and provided that I have put on these clothes [my new body], I won't be found naked [without a body].  Yes, while I am still in this tent [my present temporary body], I am continually groaning, since I am being burdened, because I don't want to be stripped [of my present body], but I want to put on the clothes [my new body], so that what is subject to dying might be swallowed up by Life.

Jab ==one question about that.

There he says he doesn't want to be found naked [in the afterlife?] that is, without a body.

Would that imply that it would be possible to be just a soul without a body in the afterlife?

[Molly]

Job 19:26  And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433


yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320

H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of"  meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh

So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.

In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.

KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation

So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.

No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.

NO where does that word mean 'without.'   It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God

May I just remind you up there in Post#220    I said, "Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking." And that's all I did was post several translation, I didn't say that I had an answer, I said that's a verse looking into.

OK here are some more translations for you:


 
New International Version (©1984)
And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

New Living Translation (©2007)
And after my body has decayed, yet in my body I will see God!

English Standard Version (©2001)
And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Even after my skin has been stripped off my body, I will see God in my own flesh.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And though after my skin is thus destroyed, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

American King James Version
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

American Standard Version
And after my skin, even this body , is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God;

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God.

Darby Bible Translation
And if after my skin this shall be destroyed, yet from out of my flesh shall I see +God;

English Revised Version
And after my skin hath been thus destroyed, yet from my flesh shall I see God:

Webster's Bible Translation
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

World English Bible
After my skin is destroyed, then in my flesh shall I see God,

Young's Literal Translation
And after my skin hath compassed this body, Then from my flesh I see God:
 
 

[micah7:9]

I as well have translations up the kazoo. Shall we post em all? I said it is a verse that would take some looking into and considering just what it is telling us. But if you have already go the answer please give it to me so I may go silently into the night.

[jabcat]

This one was mentioned earlier by Molly, the 2 Cor. 5 passage.  I have the Christian Bible beside me right now, which reads;

For I am aware that if my earthly tent home [my temporary home ( my present body)] is demolished, I'm going to have a building [a new body] that comes from God, a home in the Last Age among the heavens that hasn't been made by hands.  For in this one [my present body] I am continually groaning, since I am continually desiring to put on, like clothes, my home that comes from heaven, and provided that I have put on these clothes [my new body], I won't be found naked [without a body].  Yes, while I am still in this tent [my present temporary body], I am continually groaning, since I am being burdened, because I don't want to be stripped [of my present body], but I want to put on the clothes [my new body], so that what is subject to dying might be swallowed up by Life.

Jab ==one question about that.

There he says he doesn't want to be found naked [in the afterlife?] that is, without a body.

Would that imply that it would be possible to be just a soul without a body in the afterlife?

To me, it seems obvious that he can have one (when he has the redemption of his body? [you quoted that verse earlier].  Your question though brings me to something I've been thinking about.  It seems a dividing point can be "are people still asleep in the grave" or are the "in heaven".  I tend to believe there's an "intermediate state", a holding place - I believe some have called it paradise, or __________ (can't remember what the Jews call it).  To me, that "temporary holding place" -whether that's awaiting judgment, the resurrection, or both - could tie into whether there's an immortal body yet or not.  However!  Paul said to be absent from his body was to be present with the Lord...so again, going along with your Q of this scrip, maybe some have attained, while others will have to wait? 

Reminds me of the "saved in 3 stages" discussion in another thread that I've also been thinking about;  i.e., spirit saved by belief/faith/confession, soul saved by obedience/Sonship, body saved at the consummation/vivification of all.  The more I think I know, the less I know...

I'm not saying all the above is the way it is.  I'm wondering, thinking, suggesting perhaps...  Everyone needs to pray and study about such things.  There are many, many POVs.   

[jabcat]

וְאַחַר עוֹרִי נִקְּפוּ־זֹאת וּמִבְּשָׂרִי אֶחֱזֶה אֱלוֹהַּ
  19:26 w'achar ôriy niQ'fû-zot ûmiB'säriy echézeh élôHa
  19:26 And [though] after 310 my skin 5785 [worms] destroy 5362 z8765 this x2063 [body], yet in my flesh 1320 x4480 shall I see 2372 z8799 ´Élôåh אֱלוֹהַ: 433
 

[Molly]

I as well have translations up the kazoo. Shall we post em all? I said it is a verse that would take some looking into and considering just what it is telling us. But if you have already go the answer please give it to me so I may go silently into the night.

  Yes but you see that most of the translations say the same thing--he will see God in his flesh even though his body now is destroyed.

[micah7:9]

Should I have any more wonders of what the Bible says I'll come to you.

[WhiteWings]

DNA.  Have you ever noticed how DNA is read as some huge statistical number--like only 1 person in 300 billion will have the same DNA?  There are only supposedly some 7 billion on the planet [and I think that's way exaggerated] so 'we've got a match' becomes 'no one else in the universe living or dead would have this sequence.'

We are identified by a sequence, a code,  that accounts for every hair on our heads, exclusive of anyone else ever born.


And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows Lk 12:7

Not stating a particular stance here, other than I had a similar thought (not as well defined as yours)  ;  God can work that miracle easily if He chooses to. 

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?  Jer. 32:27

From a Biblical pov it's odd to even consider God needs bodies to resurrect for several reason:
- Adam was build without and previous DNA
- Nothing is impossible for God.
- People that are totally destroyed by for example a bomb can't be resurrected.
- If for some reason people look into a year old grave God needs to change a glorified body back in a corpse for that moment.
- The list goes on.

If there is anything to be learned from Jesus' resurrection it is that the grave will be empty as a sign of resurrection.
Does the body look the same? It took quite a while until Jesus was recognized by the 12 of which half knew Him for decades.
So that same Jesus was different. I think that's also quite obvious because otherwise it means a heaven filled with 85 yo blind, deaf and ill people.

[jabcat]

My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer.  Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing.  My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.

About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her.  My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.

She saw several people in this dream, including her mother.  Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her.  And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).

My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.

[WhiteWings]

My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer.  Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing.  My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.

About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her.  My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.

She saw several people in this dream, including her mother.  Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her.  And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).

My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.

My condolances!
Would your wife have recognized her mother "on the road to Emmaus"?

[Molly]

My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer.  Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing.  My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.

About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her.  My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.

She saw several people in this dream, including her mother.  Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her.  And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).

My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.

Thank you for sharing that with us Jab. 

Same thing happened to me after my mother died.  She visited me in my dreams, off and on for a year and talked to me.

I can't describe the joy I had to see her still alive--and --as if I really were seeing her in person.  Dreams are not like that for me, either.

I hardly ever dream. [that I remember]   She, also looked young and healthy.

Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.

[livingwater1]

My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer.  Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing.  My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.

About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her.  My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.

She saw several people in this dream, including her mother.  Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her.  And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).

My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.

Thank you for sharing that with us Jab. 

Same thing happened to me after my mother died.  She visited me in my dreams, off and on for a year and talked to me.

I can't describe the joy I had to see her still alive--and --as if I really were seeing her in person.  Dreams are not like that for me, either.

I hardly ever dream. [that I remember]   She, also looked young and healthy.

Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.

My best friend, has been going through intense pain, and grieving while going through her divorce; and one night in despair...and frustrated about God; cried out to her dead grandma.....show me a sign;  give me some hope...............She heard/felt the message loud and clear "you are safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok".     Later that night my friend called me; and told me that she was in despair.   Prior to her telling me anything about her "visitation from her grandma", I told her that earlier in the day, when i was sitting on my porch; i had a vision of an old lady with white hair come to me;  and tell me that she was "safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok".  Word for word the exact same thing had come to me.  And when i described the "vision" of what she looked like; it was exactly as her grandma had looked about 15 years ago.   We both cried.   

[Doug]

On the one hand, Catholic tradition says Mary and other saints who have died are alive in heaven, and can hear the prayers of believers; on the other hand, the Scriptures show that the faithful who are deceased remain in their graves, asleep, awaiting the resurrection. The two views seem mutually exclusive.

Job said,

Job 14:13-17
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Job believed he would be changed, that he was "the work of God's hands," and that he would eventually see God.

Job 19:25-27
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Similarly, David said:

Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

To "awaken" as if from sleep is a metaphor Jesus used when he raised up Lazarus.

John 11:11-13
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Jesus also said, those who believe in him would "never die." Evidently, what he meant was, though they experience death, the time they are in the grave is merely "sleep." They are assured of the promise of their resurrection.

John 11:21-27
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

For Paul, the resurrection of the saints would not occur until the coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Paul taught, that at the last trump, Christ will descend from heaven, and "the dead in Christ shall rise first," and then, "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them."

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John showed that our destiny is to "be like him."

1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

John also said, "no one has ever seen God."

1 John 4:7-12 NIV
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Doug

[Cardinal]

My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer.  Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing.  My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.

About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her.  My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.

She saw several people in this dream, including her mother.  Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her.  And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).

My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.

Thank you for sharing that with us Jab. 

Same thing happened to me after my mother died.  She visited me in my dreams, off and on for a year and talked to me.

I can't describe the joy I had to see her still alive--and --as if I really were seeing her in person.  Dreams are not like that for me, either.

I hardly ever dream. [that I remember]   She, also looked young and healthy.

Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.

My best friend, has been going through intense pain, and grieving while going through her divorce; and one night in despair...and frustrated about God; cried out to her dead grandma.....show me a sign;  give me some hope...............She heard/felt the message loud and clear "you are safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok".     Later that night my friend called me; and told me that she was in despair.   Prior to her telling me anything about her "visitation from her grandma", I told her that earlier in the day, when i was sitting on my porch; i had a vision of an old lady with white hair come to me;  and tell me that she was "safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok".  Word for word the exact same thing had come to me.  And when i described the "vision" of what she looked like; it was exactly as her grandma had looked about 15 years ago.   We both cried.

  PTL! I love it when He gives confirmations like that, that you know that you know, is Him. He is just awesome beyond words. Praise the Lord for eyes that see, and ears that hear, we give You praise this day, Lord! Blessings.....

[Cardinal]

  @ Nathan......two excellent posts!   

[CHB]

Well, I have a story that is a little bit different.

My mother inlaw and I would talk on the phone just about every day. One day we were talking about what happens when we die. I said "if you die before I do please come back and let me know how it is". She said "you do the same". After she died about two weeks later I saw her standing by my bed, she looked awful like she was decaying. I believe I was dreaming but I woke up and she was still standing there for a minute. Then she just crumbled to pieces and was gone. She didn't say a word just looked at me. It was like she just disintergrated.

I don't know for sure but I think whatever you believe is what your dreams are made of. I had always believed when you die you are dead and stay in your grave until Christ returns. So, that is the way my dream was.

CHB

[Doug]

...
What you "see" with your eyes is the natural realm.  What you can tangibly see is the spiritual. 

This is wonderfully confusing stuff.

Doug

[Nathan]

Job 19:26  And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433


yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320

H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of"  meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh

So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.

In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.

KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation

So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.

No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.

NO where does that word mean 'without.'   It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God

May I just remind you up there in Post#220    I said, "Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking." And that's all I did was post several translation, I didn't say that I had an answer, I said that's a verse looking into.

But let's keep this in the context in which it was written . . .this was JOB!!  A man who literally had worms eating his flesh . . .he wasn't prophesying about men returning to bodies of flesh, he was saying that no matter how bad things were for him at that point, it wasn't going to beat him.  Even though worms ate his skin, he would in the end, in the flesh, continue to give God glory. 

there's absolutely no indication there at all that he was talking about the end of the world and all the people on earth would one day have their spirits return to their bodies . . .

I am surprised though that you're not pointing to passages that talk about the dead in Christ shall rise and those who are alive and remain will be caught up in the air to meet with the Lord and there we shall forever be . . .floating around . . .in the air . ..neither on heaven or on earth . . .just forever floating . . .

Sorry . . .got carried away.

But the bottom line here is, you're taking Job's renderings completely out of context to fit something else entirely different.

[Molly]

Hi Nathan,

The context of Job 19 :26


Job is talkiing about the Redeemer standing on the earth in the Latter Day--to judge the earth--

I doubt he thought he would still be alive at that time

And, he also said 'though my reins be consumed within me"---meaning all his organs would be destroyed--in other words, he would be dead.

So yes, he is prophesying about the resurrection from the dead in the Latter Day.




 25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

--Job 19

[micah7:9]

Well, I have a story that is a little bit different.

My mother inlaw and I would talk on the phone just about every day. One day we were talking about what happens when we die. I said "if you die before I do please come back and let me know how it is". She said "you do the same". After she died about two weeks later I saw her standing by my bed, she looked awful like she was decaying. I believe I was dreaming but I woke up and she was still standing there for a minute. Then she just crumbled to pieces and was gone. She didn't say a word just looked at me. It was like she just disintergrated.

I don't know for sure but I think whatever you believe is what your dreams are made of. I had always believed when you die you are dead and stay in your grave until Christ returns. So, that is the way my dream was.

CHB

I find that overwhelming with truth! Glory! I do want to offend any of the other dreams, but with all humility this dream bears a teaching that is a truth. I pray you handled it well.

[jabcat]

Molly, and actually, to get "technical", I've read the worms part is strictly an translator addition to the text.  However, he's apparently talking about when his flesh is gone, decayed - as in DEAD - yet he would still see Him.  Good summary on the actual context of the scripture.

Really awesome scrips, that do not sound parabolic.  He knew his redeemer lives and that he would see Him in His power and glory!  Hallelujah!

[jabcat]

yes the body decays.  that's scriptural.    Yet, "he who believe in Me will NEVER die.  Do you believe this?"  spoken by our Lord.



as I suggested earlier, I personally think there's another answer besides the "sticking points" of simply "dead" or "in heaven".  post #229.   

[WhiteWings]

I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.

[micah7:9]

When is man going to forefit and know that the context is God. All this context talk, how is it that man's context is His context?
Or that His context is man's context. Context belongs to theologians and religions.
Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word, is truth, and, age-abiding, is every one of thy righteous regulations.

Every word, proverb, story, or parable is in the context and the Holy Spirit will Teach us of the Truth which is the SUM of His Word. It is age-abiding, they are HIS righteous regulations.

In what context is many are called but few are chosen? The context for me is Genesis thru Revelation.
I truly had thought(did you get that "I" thought)  that I suppose was my error; that this forum was a place for learning and sharing, outside of religious denominational standards. A retreating from and growing into
Isa 43:19  Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

But, that is not so. All that it seems to be offering is readjusting of what we have been taught by theologians and religion. WhiteWings for me anyway, is about the only one who dares to offer up what the Bible says and gives thoughts that challenge the doctrines that men have set forth. I don't always agree with him but he does not just rehash old things, he will raise a point that has been taken for granted and then shows different points that question religions teachings. Maybe its because the Lord has him seeking for Truth because he is not committed, he distrusts religions, or he sees the air between the foundational bricks that man has set in place. I may debate perhaps to harsh, that is between me and the Lord, it is not my intent, but when I read something that is just not what the Word says, I'm given to argue it out. An example would be when a soul(human being) dies that soul goes to heaven, when the Bible teaches no such thing.

I, thank you Lord, I do not fully understand Job 19:26  And, though, after my skin is struck off, this followeth , yet, apart from my flesh, shall I see GOD:

But I do know that those words written in Job, are for me now, and I pray that He will lead me to understand the Sum of His Truth, and I know He will open that truth in His time for me.