Rapture dream

[thinktank]

That is a fair point and I have seen many scriptures recently where Paul talks about this being the last hour and so forth. It almost feels as if we are in a time warp and something went wrong in the universe, but in seriousness I contend that maybe there was a resurection during Pauls day, it would be great if there were historic data on this. In fact this proves that historic data is not useless as some like preach.
But due to the multitude of scriptures that talk about the wrath of God and vengeance of God at the last day, I feel that preaching peace and safety is a risky game to play and kind of molds with evolution.

[Doug]

That is a fair point and I have seen many scriptures recently where Paul talks about this being the last hour and so forth. It almost feels as if we are in a time warp and something went wrong in the universe, but in seriousness I contend that maybe there was a resurection during Pauls day, it would be great if there were historic data on this.

Some in Paul's day claimed that there had been a resurrection, their names were Hymenaeus and Philetus.

2 Timothy 2:17-19
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Doug

[thinktank]

That is a fair point and I have seen many scriptures recently where Paul talks about this being the last hour and so forth. It almost feels as if we are in a time warp and something went wrong in the universe, but in seriousness I contend that maybe there was a resurection during Pauls day, it would be great if there were historic data on this.

Some in Paul's day claimed that there had been a resurrection, their names were Hymenaeus and Philetus.

2 Timothy 2:17-19
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Doug

Yeah I know that scripture, but it could have been after that scripture.

Also I'm not sure if the resurection would be the same as the one that is to come. Maybe Paul was expecting a different type of resurection, maybe in spirit.

[Doug]

Dispensationalism and preterism have a number of things in common.

• Both say the 70th week of Daniel 9 is a literal seven years.
  
• Both deny that Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" applies to the covenant that Christ confirms with many in the present age.
  
• Both views suffer from oversell, or too much repetition. Saying the same things over and over and over and over again begins to sound like Christmas music in the mall.
  
• Both misinterpret the meaning of Daniel 9:27, IMO. In some translations it says something is poured out on the desolate. This might apply to the church, the spiritual temple, which is made desolate by the false teachers and flawed interpretations; Daniel 9:24 indicates  holy Spirit will be poured out on her, as this is implied by the anointing of the most holy.
  
• Both preterists and dispensationalists need to recognize that the 70th week is symbolic and spans all the time from the ministry of Jesus to the end, so that they can eliminate the great gulf of 19 centuries that currently separates them.

Doug

[CHB]

Hi All,

Don't mean to butt in but I have a question. I hope someone can give me an answer.

I have wondered if there was a resurrection in Paul's day, or John's day?  Wouldn't that resurrection have been a bodily resurrection? I am saying everyone would have been resurrected as Jesus was, no body left in the tomb. Or did just their spirits go up?

OK, some believe that we go on to heaven when we die but yet believe that our bodies will be resurrected at some point in time.  This is where I have a problem. If there was a resurrection of bodies in John's day, why doesn't the same thing happen at a time when God chooses in the future? If we go on to heaven when we die, what happens to our bodies that are put in the ground?

If that first resurrection wasn't a bodily resurrection will all of the bodies since Adam be resurrected at the same time in the future? When does this happen? This body we have now will be changed into a spiritual body because Paul said we would PUT ON IMMORTALITY. What is the purpose of seperating the spirit from the body?

CHB

[Nathan]

Well, for me, "my death" is only a dust particle in relation to the fulfillment of the plan of God in this realm we live in.  This world of the natural is following the pattern, the preplanned intention of what has already been finished in the spirit.  My natural, literal body dying is merely part of the process that leads to the completion of all things in this natural realm.  I "don't" believe there have been any bodily resurrections other than those that came out of their graves the moment Jesus left his body on the cross.  And even then, there's no mention or record that "those" who resurrected from their graves lived on forever and are still among us today.  I believe EVERYTHING that happens in this realm is merely a sign . .a reflection of what God has done in the spirit. 

Why the separation of our spirit from our bodies?  That's what "death" is.  it's a separation, it's the process of the curse in this realm.  I see "time" as a conformity.  This realm is "conformed" by the process of time.  Spiritual life is outside of the reach of time.  That's why it's a peace that PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING . . .it's outside of our reach to understand with these minds of logic and reason.  I believe the moment we're conceived, we become "whole" beings.  I believe that's the role of the soul, it's the evidence that there is a spirit living in the confines of this body of flesh.  Yet because of Adam's choices, even though we're whole now, it's limited and temporary.  I believe that's why there's a "return" of our spirit to these bodies of flesh when all things are complete.  We become "whole" again when we return to a glorified body . . .but it's not just the body, it's the order of everything.  This realm, the atmosphere, everything "in" this place will return to it's original state of what it was BEFORE the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden . . .the spirit.

And as such, we'll return to bodies for the purpose that we'll once again be "whole" and our souls will once again manifest that wholeness as a result.  Everything spiritual now will become our dominant realm and everything tangible now will become secondary . . . it's the opposite of what it is now.  What you "see" with your eyes is the natural realm.  What you can tangibly see is the spiritual.  But in the end, that will be reversed due to the reversal of the curse that the earth continues to be bound by until the days of God's plan come to an end.

The immortality that Paul spoke of was spiritual . . .can't be seen, but "can" be experienced in spite of still being in mortal bodies of flesh.  This world is "not" our home . . . Jesus told the disciples he was going to a place where they could not yet follow.  And that in that place, he'd prepare a place for us so that where HE IS we may also be.  Where is he?  Is he not in the spirit?  Another reason why I wince at those who choose to embrace the idea that Jesus is returning to "this" realm.  That's not what he said, he said he's preparing a place for us in "his" realm so that we can be with him, not so that he can return to us.  The thousand year millennium is all about him returning "here".  I no longer can accept that.  "This" realm is not meant to be dominant over the Spirit realm.  The spirit realm is where the "ascended" places are that have been prepared for us.  Why embrace a doctrine that has him returning "here" when he's already stated "this" is not our home, but where he's gone to is where we'll also be?

[CHB]

And as such, we'll return to bodies for the purpose that we'll once again be "whole" and our souls will once again manifest that wholeness as a result.  Everything spiritual now will become our dominant realm and everything tangible now will become secondary . . . it's the opposite of what it is now.  What you "see" with your eyes is the natural realm.  What you can tangibly see is the spiritual.  But in the end, that will be reversed due to the reversal of the curse that the earth continues to be bound by until the days of God's plan come to an end.

You don't believe all things have been fulfilled, am I correct on that? What is there left to be fulfilled? Just our bodies being resurrected? Won't Christ come back to resurrect our bodies?  I guess these sound like stupid questions but I really would like to hear what you have to say about this.

Another question I just thought of. If our spirit is with Christ after we die do we have a spiritual body that looks like our physical bodies, or are we kind of like the wind without a body till ours is resurrected? Moses and Elijah comes to mind here.

CHB

[Nathan]

Isn't it fun to try to see spiritual reality with natural imagery?  Very tough but I do think God has every intention of showing us as much as we're willing to receive and able to comprehend . . .actually, that's not completely true either, I think he ALWAYS desires us to enter into the endless depths of things we just can't comprehend.  The deep calls to the deep.  For me, I'm not saying we'll become this literally, but I see us "as the stars in the heavens".  I see my spirit as a light . . .when we enter into the heavenlies, we become the sea, the ocean of lights of others who've passed on before us .. .I think the "cloud" which consists literally of tiny crystal droplets of water is also likened to us as well.  I remember a passage speaking about false teachers are like clouds without water, they give the appearance of having the capability to produce refreshing rains on others, but the reality is, they're just empty grayness . . .it causes one's mind to remain in a low state.  Just like cloudy days affect our mental attitudes.

But for me, God is light, the likeness of his nature in me is spirit so I see our spirits as little flecks of light that illuminate the dark around us.

One other thing I'm trying to remind myself is, to be careful in saying things like God always . . . . or God never . . . just when I think God always works "this" way or in "that" manner . . .he changes things up.  So it is the same way for me with "All" prophecies being fulfilled . . . I think "most" prophecies have been fulfilled in this realm . . . I think everything "is" complete in the spirit realm, but what that consists of . .there aren't enough words in our vocabulary that could identify with acknowledging every aspect of what that completeness actually is.  But for me, because we're still living in a realm of death and decay is evidence to me that not all things are complete.  Time is still in control of all things around us. 

Will Christ come back to resurrect us?  That's just it . . .I think he already "has" come and resurrected me.  "No, I mean LITERALLY . . ." 

Here's a thought . . .as much as we struggle with the idea that God lives outside of time, here's another one . . .he also lives outside of space.  He doesn't "travel".  Heaven isn't some far away place.  It's right "here", we just can't see it from "this" side of the veil of death.  Death "is" the veil in a sense.  Through death, we become free from the limitations of these bodies and this realm.  Let's get "reeeeeally literal here . . .most of what people think is that the dead in their graves will jump up through the dirt, brick and mortar and hook up with their spirits . . .but . . .what of those people who have been vaporized by bombs of war?  What of people who've been eaten by wild animals?  There aren't even any skeletal bones to resurrect at all.  Those that have been cremated . . .their ashes scattered to the wind, dissolved in rivers and streams, fossilized in the layers of the earth's crust .. .most would have to be reformed, recreated, reshaped from the dust all over again.

We say these bodies are temporary, but yet in the back of our minds, it's been so ingrained in us that even though these bodies are temporary, they'll still be resurrected . . .how can they resurrect if they've been totally dispersed?  What if this resurrection of the body goes beyond what "our" limited understanding has projected in the imagery of our own minds?  How old will we appear to be in our resurrected states?  I feel like we are just like our kids.  As parents, we go out and get the top of the line toy for our kid's birthday or whatever and we're so excited for our kids that we can't wait for them to open them .. .and yet when they do . ..they spend more time playing with the box than they do with the thing we paid so much money for so they could enjoy what we perceived to be the finer things in life.

Some of these spiritual things that God gives to us kinda go down the same path, we tend to spend most of our amusement with the wrapper rather than the contents that were in it.

In this realm, we depend on visual stimulation.  If I can't "see" it, then it can't exist.  So, when God, who is spirit, wants to reveal his nature to us, he has to cause it to be something that can be seen . . .healing is a visual manifestation of an invisible presence.  We "want" to "believe" but we rely so much on what is seen, we struggle with what isn't.  But for us to see God, that's the only way vision can come to us, by seeing what's invisible.  A person's body is a visual manifestation that life is manifesting inside the shell of flesh.  But, it's temporary . . as is this realm.

So, what is it that get's resurrected?  This body?  Or one that can't be comprehended because it's a spiritual event rather than a natural one.  I think emphasizing the type of body is playing with the wrapping paper.  I think the contents of the gift is actually the resurrection itself.  I think Jesus did more by "revealing" his true nature on the mount of transfiguration than any words could explain.  He "became light".  After Moses would leave God's presence, he would continue to glow from the light . . .

Until this entire realm is reversed, comprehending what kind of body we'll actually be living in will continue to be one of those mysteries.  We are light as he is the Light . . .that's the closest I can come to understanding it.

[Molly]

We say these bodies are temporary, but yet in the back of our minds, it's been so ingrained in us that even though these bodies are temporary, they'll still be resurrected . . .how can they resurrect if they've been totally dispersed?

DNA.  Have you ever noticed how DNA is read as some huge statistical number--like only 1 person in 300 billion will have the same DNA?  There are only supposedly some 7 billion on the planet [and I think that's way exaggerated] so 'we've got a match' becomes 'no one else in the universe living or dead would have this sequence.'

We are identified by a sequence, a code,  that accounts for every hair on our heads, exclusive of anyone else ever born.


And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows Lk 12:7

[jabcat]

DNA.  Have you ever noticed how DNA is read as some huge statistical number--like only 1 person in 300 billion will have the same DNA?  There are only supposedly some 7 billion on the planet [and I think that's way exaggerated] so 'we've got a match' becomes 'no one else in the universe living or dead would have this sequence.'

We are identified by a sequence, a code,  that accounts for every hair on our heads, exclusive of anyone else ever born.


And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows Lk 12:7

Not stating a particular stance here, other than I had a similar thought (not as well defined as yours)  ;  God can work that miracle easily if He chooses to. 

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?  Jer. 32:27

[Nathan]

Yes, but is that resurrection or restructuring?  That's what I'm trying to say here . .resurrection may not be "literally" what we think it is.  It may instead be a spiritual phenomenon rather than a literal activity.  We know that this realm is "lower" than the spirit realm . . .who's to say that the resurrection then isn't being ascended "from" this realm "into" the spirit?

[Molly]

I think we'll have a flesh and bone body like Jesus' resurrected body.

[kept alive by the quickening Spirit, but that's just my theory]


And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.  Rom 8:23

[micah7:9]

Just a small bothersome question for me. Where does the Bible teach a resurrecting of the or a body? I'm still looking.

[Molly]

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
--1 Cor 15:20



If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:

1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body

[Doug]

In Daniel, the resurrection is said to occur at a time of great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Paul said that Christ was the "firstfruits of them that slept." A "firstfruit" is normally a pattern and a sample of the fruits that are to follow; the resurrection of Jesus was a pattern for the resurrection of all the saints.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus is the only person who has immortality at present, and he was not immortal, until he was raised up from the grave. Otherwise, he would not have been able to die. The pagan idea that humans are born with "immortal souls" is alien to Biblical Christianity, as if men have immortal souls, why would there need to be a resurrection? It would be redundant. Paul referred to Jesus, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." [1 Timothy 6:16]

In the book of Revelation, the 144,000 who were sealed in chapter 7 are called the "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" in chapter 14. They represent the saints of this age. "These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4] The label firstfruits implies more are to follow, and in chapter 7, the remaining great multitude, "which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," are described as "they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." I think they represent the people who are converted in the judgment. The first group, the 144,000 who are sealed, are involved in that. Paul said, "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" [1 Corinthians 6:2]

Paul indicated there is an order to the resurrections; "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." [1 Corinthians 15:22-24] 

Jesus encouraged people to seek his kingdom, and his promises. [Matthew 13:45] In Matthew 24, when he said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:..." I believe that he meant seek the promises of God, which are represented by mountains in Scripture. That is, seek to be in the first group of the saints, rather than in the second group who have to endure the judgment.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Doug

[jabcat]

If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:

1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body

 

Can I play!??    If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!...  lol

[Molly]

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye---at the last trumpet! [1 Cor 15]

When is the last trumpet, at the end of the age? [what some call the rapture]

And those who do not sleep--are these the ones given eternal life by Jesus?  Do they wait in heaven with Jesus for the end of the age and the redemption of the body?

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

These are the ones who will return with Christ at the last trump, ten thousands of his saints as a cloud of witnesses.

[Molly]

If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:

1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body

 

Can I play!??    If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!...  lol

Very good.  You receive a gift from Santa Handel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEnws5brUcI


Even though worms destroy this body, YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD.

[jabcat]

Can't from this computer, but Lord willing, I will listen.  Thanks :)

[micah7:9]

If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:

1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body

 

Can I play!??    If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!...  lol

Can one of you please give me a verse in your Bible that teaches 3)?

[micah7:9]

If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:

1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body

 

Can I play!??    If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!...  lol

Very good.  You receive a gift from Santa Handel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEnws5brUcI


Even though worms destroy this body, YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD.

Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking.  So lets have a look see.

Job 19:25  For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26  And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27  Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (KJV)

Job 19:25  But, I, know that, my redeemer, liveth, and, as the Last over my dust, will he arise;
Job 19:26  And, though, after my skin is struck off, this followeth , yet, apart from my flesh, shall I see GOD:
Job 19:27  Whom, I myself, shall see, on my side, and, mine own eyes, shall have looked upon, and not those of a stranger. Exhausted are my deepest desires in my bosom!
(Rothrtham)

Job 19:25   For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives, and at last He [the Last One] will stand upon the earth.
Job 19:26   And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see God,
Job 19:27   Whom I, even I, shall see for myself and on my side! And my eyes shall behold Him, and not as a stranger! My heart pines away and is consumed within me. (Amp. Bible)

25 "But I know that my Redeemer lives, that in the end he will rise on the dust;
26 so that after my skin has been thus destroyed, then even without my flesh, I will see God. 27 I will see him for myself, my eyes, not someone else's, will behold him. My heart grows weak inside me!
27 I will see him for myself, my eyes, not someone else's, will behold him. My heart grows weak inside me!
(Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern)

[Molly]

Job 19:26  And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433


yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320

H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of"  meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh

So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.

In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.

KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation


Did you listen to that beautiful soprano?  No chorus.

[micah7:9]

Job 19:26  And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433


yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320

H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of"  meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh

So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.

In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.

KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation

So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.

[Molly]

Job 19:26  And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433


yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320

H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of"  meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh

So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.

In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.

KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation

So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.

No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.

NO where does that word mean 'without.'   It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God

[micah7:9]

Job 19:26  And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433


yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320

H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of"  meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh

So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.

In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.

KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation

So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.

No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.

NO where does that word mean 'without.'   It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God

May I just remind you up there in Post#220    I said, "Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking." And that's all I did was post several translation, I didn't say that I had an answer, I said that's a verse looking into.