Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 61791 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #150 on: December 05, 2011, 06:05:24 AM »



"One of the Greatest Songs Ever Written"

...and who could deny it?

Battle Hymn of the Republic :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Xz7WV_qJs








"Mine eyes have seen..."


"Mine eyes have seen..."


"Mine eyes have seen..."


Have YOUR eyes seen ???



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #151 on: December 05, 2011, 09:12:14 AM »
Doug, a list of leap years.


3249 - 513-512 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3355 - 407-406 BC End of 1st week (leap year 49)
3352 - 410-409 BC
3350 - 412-411 BC
3347 - 415-414 BC
3344 - 418-417 BC
3342 - 420-419 BC
3339 - 423-422 BC
3336 - 426-425 BC
3333 - 429-428 BC
3331 - 431-430 BC
3328 - 434-433 BC
3325 - 437-436 BC
3323 - 439-438 BC
3320 - 442-441 BC
3317 - 445-444 BC
3314 - 448-447 BC
3312 - 450-449 BC
3309 - 453-452 BC
3306 - 456-455 BC
3304 - 458-457 BC
3301 - 461-460 BC
3298 - 464-463 BC
3295 - 467-466 BC
3293 - 469-468 BC
3290 - 472-474 BC
3287 - 475-474 BC
3285 - 477-476 BC
3282 - 480-479 BC
3279 - 483-482 BC
3276 - 486-485 BC
3274 - 488-487 BC
3271 - 491-490 BC
3268 - 494-493 BC
3266 - 496-495 BC
3263 - 499-498 BC
3260 - 502-501 BC
3257 - 505-504 BC
3255 - 507-506 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3249 - 513-512 BC
3247 - 515-514 BC
3244 - 518-517 BC
3241 - 521-520 BC
3238 - 524-523 BC
3236 - 526-525 BC
3233 - 529-528 BC
3230 - 532-531 BC
3228 - 534-533 BC
3225 - 537-536 BC Cyrus - Start of count. Week 0
3222 - 540-539 BC
3219 - 543-542 BC
3217 - 545-544 BC


CYRUS
Oct. 10 539 Sippar is taken by Persian forces
Oct 12, Babylon falls
Oct 29, Cyrus enters Babylon

Accension not later than Oct 26, 539
Accension Nov 19, 539
Accension Jan 14 538

Dates taken from: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/babylon/downloads/babylonian_chronology_pd1956.pdf

Maybe also of intrest:
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Ancient_History.html


« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:09:37 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #152 on: December 05, 2011, 02:48:52 PM »
Doug, a list of leap years.


3249 - 513-512 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3355 - 407-406 BC End of 1st week (leap year 49)
3352 - 410-409 BC
...

3228 - 534-533 BC
3225 - 537-536 BC Cyrus - Start of count. Week 0
3222 - 540-539 BC
3219 - 543-542 BC
3217 - 545-544 BC


CYRUS
Oct. 10 539 Sippar is taken by Persian forces
Oct 12, Babylon falls
Oct 29, Cyrus enters Babylon

Accension not later than Oct 26, 539
Accension Nov 19, 539
Accension Jan 14 538

Dates taken from: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/babylon/downloads/babylonian_chronology_pd1956.pdf

Maybe also of intrest:
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Ancient_History.html

Looking at your dates, they seem to agree with the dates generated by my 70 weeks calculator. There are 131 years between the beginning of 537/6 BC and the end of 407/6 BC. The decree could have gone out any time from Oct 26, 539 BC to the end of 537/6 BC, and the results would be the same. If the first section of the 70 weeks is 49 leap years there is no gap between the exile and the start of the 70 weeks; they are continuous. This agrees with the idea that the exile and the three sections of the 70 weeks correspond to the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. Any gap would imply a temporary lapse in the curse described in that chapter, which Daniel refers to [Daniel 9:11]. It would require a temporary reconciliation of God with Israel, but that has not happened. The reconciliation will be a permanent one, not a temporary one.

Counting the 70 weeks from Cyrus agrees with Isaiah's prophecy that said Cyrus would give the word to build Jerusalem.

Isaiah 44:24-28
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

The second section of the 70 weeks corresponds to the third of the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. It is seven times where a "time" is 62 years. The period is also 62 sabbatical cycles. They end in about 27/28 AD which is the time of the ministry of Jesus. The prophecy accurately predicts his appearance without invoking spurious calculations, 360 day years and so forth. 

The 70 weeks prophecy applies not only to the earthly Jerusalem but the heavenly one too. When Jesus was crucified, he was somewhere on the mount of Olives, as it appears that the centurion standing nearby when he died observed the veil in the temple being rent from top to bottom. [Mark 15:37-39] That would be possible only from the mount of Olives.

Jesus previously said,

Luke 13:33
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Yet he died upon the mount of Olives. Jesus died in Jerusalem, but not in the earthly city, he was in the heavenly one. When he was raised up, and ascended to heaven, Jerusalem was raised up to heaven too. He ascended from the mount of Olives. [Acts 1:12]

The last half of the 70th week applies to the heavenly city, and so earth days, earth months, and earth years do not apply to it; I believe the last half week is symbolic of the whole age of the church, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with many. In the last half week the holy city which becomes desolate is the Church; the abomination is spiritual, and it seems to be connected with false prophets, and flawed interpretations, which is suggested by the "wing of abominations."

Something is to be "poured out" upon the Church, when she has been made desolate. Perhaps it is the anointing mentioned in verse 24, "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression ... and to anoint the Most Holy Place." [NIV]

Doug

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #153 on: December 05, 2011, 03:03:00 PM »
A 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?


Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9

Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.

Doug
That's the sort of info I like :winkgrin:
Indeed, many sources claim a 44AD death (March)
But some 43 AD
http://doig.net/NTC04.html
and died on the fifth day. Agrippa I died of his illness on September 28, 43 CE (43T).
There have been other suggestions for dating Agrippa's death.
However, these festivals every fifth year would have fallen on March 5, 42 or 47 CE, not in 43 or 44 CE.

/EDIT
http://books.google.nl/books?id=exBKKcXH_SQC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=what+month+did+agrippa+die?+44&source=bl&ots=os884E6tKT&sig=ncr6VoY8RR1FapM6KCfhsDnTzXE&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false
Jan/Feb 43
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 03:26:41 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #154 on: December 05, 2011, 03:25:24 PM »
A 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?


Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9

Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.

Doug
That's the sort of info I like :winkgrin:
Indeed, many sources claim a 44AD death (March)
But some 43 AD
http://doig.net/NTC04.html
and died on the fifth day. Agrippa I died of his illness on September 28, 43 CE (43T).
There have been other suggestions for dating Agrippa's death.
However, these festivals every fifth year would have fallen on March 5, 42 or 47 CE, not in 43 or 44 CE.


According to Daniel R. Schwartz, Agrippa I: the last king of Judaea pp. 109-110, the games were initiated 10/9 BC and they were held every 4th year. Josephus says "every fifth year" but Schwartz explained this as ancient 'inclusive' parlance, "the equivalent of our 'quadrennial.' Thus, for example, the Olympic Games too could be so described." [Note 11, p. 109]

43/44 AD was the 14th celebration of the Caesarean games. Schwartz says "In summary, it appears that Agrippa died between September/October (Tishri) 43 and January/Febrruary 44, and most probably at the very beginning of this period, in the course of, or shortly after, a Caesarean festival founded by his granddfather in honor of Augustus." [p. 111.]


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #155 on: December 05, 2011, 03:25:46 PM »
Doug, a list of leap years.


3249 - 513-512 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3355 - 407-406 BC End of 1st week (leap year 49)
3352 - 410-409 BC
...

3228 - 534-533 BC
3225 - 537-536 BC Cyrus - Start of count. Week 0
3222 - 540-539 BC
3219 - 543-542 BC
3217 - 545-544 BC


CYRUS
Oct. 10 539 Sippar is taken by Persian forces
Oct 12, Babylon falls
Oct 29, Cyrus enters Babylon

Accension not later than Oct 26, 539
Accension Nov 19, 539
Accension Jan 14 538

Dates taken from: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/babylon/downloads/babylonian_chronology_pd1956.pdf

Maybe also of intrest:
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Ancient_History.html

Looking at your dates, they seem to agree with the dates generated by my 70 weeks calculator.
But shifted 1 year IIRC.

I'm starting to think there are (at least) 3 Seventy  weeks prophesies. That may sound odd but this is the way I look at it:
1] As described on your site. Last week goes far beyond crucifixion. I haved really studied this yet but it's very reasonbly to assume Jesus didn't stop 'working' when He ascended.
2] The year for a day variation. Different starting point 444/445. Arrives at the same baptism date but ends 34AD when the Gospel goes to the Gentiles. 34AD is logical termination point also.
3] The decrees start at Tishri and Nisan. So they possibly point to Baptism and start of His ministry.
4] ..... more variations?

I think if all variations are taken in account there is very litte/no room left to bend the prophesy for "doctrinal use".
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2011, 04:49:25 PM »
Quote
The last half of the 70th week applies to the heavenly city, and so earth days, earth months, and earth years do not apply to it; I believe the last half week is symbolic of the whole age of the church, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with many. In the last half week the holy city which becomes desolate is the Church; the abomination is spiritual, and it seems to be connected with false prophets, and flawed interpretations, which is suggested by the "wing of abominations."

Something is to be "poured out" upon the Church, when she has been made desolate. Perhaps it is the anointing mentioned in verse 24, "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression ... and to anoint the Most Holy Place." [NIV]

Doug

So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be?  And, what will the next age look like?
 
 
 
 

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #157 on: December 05, 2011, 06:48:43 PM »

So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be?  And, what will the next age look like?
 

The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment. Paul said to the Corinthians,  "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" [1 Corinthians 6:2]

After the 7th trumpet, it is said:

Revelation 11:15-19
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Jesus spoke of a time when all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This seems to imply masses of people repenting and turning to God. In Zechariah 12:10, "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" applies to all those who repent, not to Jews of the first century. See Job 42:5. It means "see" in the sense Job uses it here. Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." [Matthew 5:8]

Isaiah wrote, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." [Isaiah 9:6-7]

Christ's reign is for ever, not for a thousand years. And it does not end in a general rebellion. Christopher Wordsworth said, about the thousand years of Revelation 20, "It is not said that Christ reigns with His saints, but that they reign with Him." See the reference here.

Nowhere in Scripture is the reign of Christ said to be a thousand years. That expression applies to the limited time that the individual saints reign with Christ, whose reign is said to be forever and ever. That occurs in the present age, as in every generation, Christ's followers, who are figuratively beheaded reign with him; the thousand years applies to them, not to Christ's reign.

Jesus gave many indications that when he comes, many people will be unprepared. He compared his coming to the visit of a thief. "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into." [Luke 12:39]

Jesus encourages us to seek to enter his kingdom in this age, rather than the next, which he referred to as "winter" and as the "sabbath day" in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:19-21
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Why did he mention "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter"? Perhaps this is because "winter" is the season that follows the harvest. In the harvest season the saints who are worthy are rewarded; those who are "left behind" have to go through the judgment, which is referred to as a "great tribulation." They would not be among the "firstfruits," represented by the 144,000 in Revelation 14, who "were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb;" but instead they would be among the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," the second group of Revelation 7,  who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [vs. 9, 14]

Why did he say "pray ye that your flight be not on the sabbath day"? Because the sabbath day is a shadow and a type of the eternal rest of the saints. Those who are not accounted worthy will have to flee, and seek God's righteousness, at the time when other saints are enjoying the promised "rest."

In the judgment, Paul indicates that those Jews who "abide not still in unbelief" may be "grafted" back into the olive tree, the promises from which they had been cut off. [Romans 11:23]

It is more tolerable for some, that for others. Jesus said, "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." [Mark 6:11]

Doug
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 06:51:51 PM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2011, 06:59:54 PM »
woah, that's a lot to ingest, Doug.  Let's take it a little piece at a time.

Do you think there is one resurrection or two or three?

Do you think we have already entered into a type of firstfruits resurrection, having already crossed into eternal life?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #159 on: December 05, 2011, 07:31:05 PM »

So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be?  And, what will the next age look like?
 

The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #160 on: December 05, 2011, 08:04:15 PM »

So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be?  And, what will the next age look like?
 

The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
That's sort of how I see it, too.  But, Doug says there is no literal 1000 year reign, so I'm trying to find out how he sees it.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #161 on: December 05, 2011, 08:17:27 PM »

So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be?  And, what will the next age look like?
 

The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
That's sort of how I see it, too.  But, Doug says there is no literal 1000 year reign, so I'm trying to find out how he sees it.

I can see Dougs view point from an old testament prophecies, but not from the new testament.
For one is that the devil is chained, then released.

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #162 on: December 05, 2011, 08:18:31 PM »
Quote from: WhiteWings
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.

This is the way I understand it also. It seems to me there has to be a time of correction/learning. I believe it will either be God himself teaching, or those who have already gained immortality. I don't think any human can teach 100% of the truth because they just aren't given that much understanding.

What I would like to know is, is our 6000 years about up or do you think man is given longer than that? Also, what does Christ being in the tomb 3 days and nights have to do with it? We are part way into the 3000 years. Do you think it will be in the beginning of the third day, midway, or the same time Jesus was in the tomb, or something else? I am speaking, till Christ comes again.  Anybody have any ideas on this?

CHB


Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #163 on: December 05, 2011, 09:12:04 PM »

The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.


Paul said that believers have already been translated into Christ's kingdom. He wrote:

Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

Those who think the thousand years is future, tend to discount the idea that the saints are already reigning.

The phrase "a thousand years" is shown to have a non-literal meaning in 2 Peter 3:8.

In Revelation 20, the thousand years corresponds to the time when Satan is bound. This applies personally, and on an individual level; Jesus demonstrated this, as for him, Satan was bound, and yet, in the rest of the world, Satan continued to deceive people as usual.

IMO the thousand years represents the spiritual life of a believer in this present age. It is symbolic, and alludes to the "earnest" of the Spirit given to the saints, a foretaste of eternal life. Its end occurs only for those who abandon the life of Christ. Revelation 20:8-9 indicates that they become deceived, and turn against the "camp of the saints," and the beloved city, which is the church.

Doug


Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #164 on: December 05, 2011, 09:25:30 PM »

Quote from: Doug
Paul said that believers have already been translated into Christ's kingdom. He wrote:

Yes, but what happened, or happens to the non believers?

CHB


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #165 on: December 05, 2011, 09:37:14 PM »
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō "  is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #166 on: December 05, 2011, 09:42:46 PM »
Micah, I don't see it in scripture but I may be missing something, I don't know?

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #167 on: December 05, 2011, 09:45:15 PM »
Micah, I don't see it in scripture but I may be missing something, I don't know?

CHB

I may be missing something too.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #168 on: December 05, 2011, 10:49:52 PM »

Quote from: Doug
Paul said that believers have already been translated into Christ's kingdom. He wrote:

Yes, but what happened, or happens to the non believers?

CHB

Paul spoke of "the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." [Romans 2:16] In his speech to the men at Mars' hill in Athens, Paul said:

Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I think the non believers must be the ones John described as a "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" in Revelation 7:9, who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [vs. 14]

The first group described in the chapter, the 144,000, 12,000 of each of the tribes of Israel, are those who are sealed, and these represent the saints of the present age. In Revelation 14:4, they are the ones who are "redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The New Testament encourages us to be among those who are sealed, the firstfruits. "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [Revelation 14:5]

Doug

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #169 on: December 05, 2011, 11:01:13 PM »
Quote from: WhiteWings
Imo judgment is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.

This is the way I understand it also. It seems to me there has to be a time of correction/learning. I believe it will either be God himself teaching, or those who have already gained immortality. I don't think any human can teach 100% of the truth because they just aren't given that much understanding.
I think Father isn't doing much at all. He has given all things in Jesus' hands. Jesus rules with a rod. = correction.
I think the saint will do the teaching and obviously Jesus is in control of the Saints.
It would just be empty words to say the saints rule with Jesus and then then all they are allowed to do is nothing  :laughing7:


1 Corinthians 6 [AKJV]
2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Saints judge the world. Saints judge the angels. Seems like the saints are higher in rank than the angels. To complicate things the Saints will spread the word of God. So they are messengers. Angel=messenger.
Revelation 14 [AKJV]
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Is that verse about the millennium Kingdom? Lamb=Jesus. Angels=Saints.

Quote
What I would like to know is, is our 6000 years about up or do you think man is given longer than that? Also, what does Christ being in the tomb 3 days and nights have to do with it? We are part way into the 3000 years. Do you think it will be in the beginning of the third day, midway, or the same time Jesus was in the tomb, or something else? I am speaking, till Christ comes again.  Anybody have any ideas on this?
3 days might have a very different length as might you think. (for prof of this reasoning check out how long the 3 day fast of Esther lasted)
3 days can be anything between 72 hours and 24 hours and a split second....
Jews count inclusive. So 1 second of day 1 + 24 hours of day 2 + 1/1000000 second of day 3 = 3 days.
Scaling that up to 1 day = 1000 year means the 3 milena can be anywhere between 1000 and 3000 years.
Of course that can be narrowed down a bit. For example the usual betrothal period was 1-2 year. 1000-2000 year.
As you said the 6000 years are nearly up. Today is Friday. The next day is Saturday.
Would mankind rule during the Sabbath or
Matthew 12 [ACV]
8 For the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.
 :banana:
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 11:20:50 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #170 on: December 05, 2011, 11:16:54 PM »
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō "  is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Soul sleep time for me :grave: so you gotta look up the details yourself.
If it's literal NOBODY leaves earth. Jesus joins returns and stays on earth.
People meet Jesus. That doesn't mean they go with Him. It means they just meet Him and take Him home.
When Paul returned from Rome other met (raptured) him. Paul followed them to their homes. They didn't follow Paul to Rome.
The same word is is used in the 10 virgins parable. Those without oil went away. Those without oil met their betrothed man/husband/Jesus. But they were NOT taken away. The 5 virgins took the groom inside of their house.
When the 5 other virgins came back from buying oil the groom said "I don't know you".
Obviously the groom can't speak to the foolish 5 virgins if he not inside of theouse of the wise virgins.


Don't forget this verse:
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev 13:7).

Satan starts a war in heaven against the saints that are raptured?

Good night.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #171 on: December 06, 2011, 01:08:36 AM »

Quote from: WhiteWings
I think Father isn't doing much at all. He has given all things in Jesus' hands. Jesus rules with a rod. = correction.
I think the saint will do the teaching and obviously Jesus is in control of the Saints.
It would just be empty words to say the saints rule with Jesus and then then all they are allowed to do is nothing
 

I was going by these verses in relation to those who were teachers being immortal. (Isaiah 30:20-21) yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more,but thine eyesshall see thy teachers; And thine ears shall HEAR A WORD BEHIND THEE, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. Yes, I know Jesus is in control of the saints. I think Jesus will have to teach the saints before they teach anyone else though, this is what I was saying.

CHB

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2011, 01:42:42 AM »

I can see Dougs view point from an old testament prophecies, but not from the new testament.
For one is that the devil is chained, then released.


Would you call the Millennial reign a "watch in the night"?

The Psalmist says that a thousand years is like a "watch in the night."

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Why would the Scripture say that Christ is to reign forever, if his reign is only to be for a mere "watch in the night"?

In the Millennium, will there be a new dark age? Will life be so primitive then, that men will resort to weapons such as bows and arrows, spears, clubs, and handstaves, as Ezekiel describes in chapter 38? Will armies riding on horses come against the land of the Jews, at the end of the Millennium, looking to take a prey, and a great spoil? Will they "think an evil thought," a thousand years into the Millennial reign?

Are the invaders of Gog and Magog going to turn against each other, armed with swords? And will they litter the territory of Palestine with their corpses, and so generate an awful stench? Will the Jews living in that time bury their corpses for seven months, and burn their weapons as fuel for seven years, and after that, will birds devour their corpses and drink their blood? Hmm.. does that make sense?

Taken literally, and when considered together with what the Scriptures say about Gog and Magog, the Millennium theory makes very little sense. And it presents a very gloomy scenario for the future of the world. It is said that the resurrected saints will judge, and re-educate humanity, for a thousand years. But how futile, when the outcome is known from the start! What a dismal job it will be for saints who know all their best effort and ingenuity is doomed to fail, and the population of the world will eventually end up in a state of general rebellion, when Satan is let loose! But, promoting this doctrine or some variant of it is big business in America! Gullible theology students in seminary, hoping to become ministers, want to "know which way the wind blows," and the wind in America blows the way of Premillennialism. Their professors teach and support the doctrine, as many colleges require them to subscribe to that belief. They publish books and articles supporting it.

The Millennium is a "watch in the night," that ends in rebellion. The doctrine contradicts several scriptures that describe the reign of Christ as lasting forever:

Psalm 146:10
The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Doug
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 01:46:19 AM by Doug »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #173 on: December 06, 2011, 01:43:33 AM »
Micah, "Re: Rapture dream
Reply #165 on: Today at 01:37:14 PM
   Reply with quote Modify message Remove this message
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō "  is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?

Could the rapture just be a dream?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #174 on: December 06, 2011, 09:24:59 AM »
I know Jesus is in control of the saints. I think Jesus will have to teach the saints before they teach anyone else though, this is what I was saying.
With that I can agree. The question is: When.
Perhaps they are saints because they are already thaught. "elected"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...