Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 46036 times)

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Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #125 on: December 04, 2011, 01:11:51 AM »
Doug,

538BC+49  isn't 405BC

??

Thus, if weeks of leap years are the correct units for the first section, 49 leap years spans 133 years, and the first section of the 70 weeks ends in 405 BC.
Understood.
That would make Him 32 years old at the start of His ministry in 30AD. That's not "about 30".


Well, if Jesus was born around 3 B.C. or 2 B.C., and his ministry began in 28 A.D., he would have been "about 30." John's ministry began about 27 A.D., as Luke puts it in the 15th year of Tiberius. It is said he was co-regent with Augustus for 2 years before the death of Augustus, which was in 14 A.D.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #126 on: December 04, 2011, 09:24:15 AM »
I believe He was born in fall 3BC. Baptized in fall 27AD (Yom Kippur) at the start of John's ministry and began His own ministry spring 28AD (Passover). So we seem to (mostly) agree on those dates.

405BC + 434 (62 weeks) = 30AD
That would make Him 32 of age in western counting and about 33 in Jewish counting.
Jews didn't know zero so they started the count at 1. It's like we say a baby is born at the age of 0 but in his/her 1st year of life.
But even if you define "about 30" in a different way He was still much older than "about 30" during baptism/start of His ministry.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #127 on: December 04, 2011, 03:11:39 PM »
I believe He was born in fall 3BC. Baptized in fall 27AD (Yom Kippur) at the start of John's ministry and began His own ministry spring 28AD (Passover). So we seem to (mostly) agree on those dates.

405BC + 434 (62 weeks) = 30AD
That would make Him 32 of age in western counting and about 33 in Jewish counting.
Jews didn't know zero so they started the count at 1. It's like we say a baby is born at the age of 0 but in his/her 1st year of life.
But even if you define "about 30" in a different way He was still much older than "about 30" during baptism/start of His ministry.


I think if one adds 405 BC years and 29 AD years, the total number of years would be 434.

But, the problem is with the date 405 BC, which is 538 minus 133. This is a bit too simplistic. Since leap years occur about every third year, 49 leap years might occur in 131, or 132, or 133 years. The first leap year after 538 BC was 537 BC, and the 49th one was the year 407 BC. The start of the second section of 62 weeks would be the year 406 BC. It is also possible that the 62 weeks correspond to sabbatical cycles; the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is supposed to have happened at the end of a sabbatical year, according to a Jewish tradition. In that case the end of the second section of 62 weeks would be 27/28 AD, a sabbatical year according to Ben Zion Wacholder. Another theory by Benedict Zuckermann says the sabbatical year was one year previous.

My 70 weeks calculator displays all the dates. The same results are produced for 539, 538, and 537 BC.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2011, 03:34:13 PM »
Doug,

I've read several articles on your website and several times you write: "Sacrifices did not end in 30 AD, but continued for about 40 years longer."
Of course that's a simple fact. But is it really what the verse is refering to?

(Daniel 9:27 [CLV])
Then he will be master of a covenant with many for one seven:At half of the seven, he will cause to cease the sacrifice and the approach present; on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations. Till the conclusion of the era the decided conclusion will be poured forth on the desolation."

I wonder what those red words mean. Is the only possible meaning that the sacrcrifices stopped in the middle of the week? Or could it also mean that the NEED to sacrifice stopped in the middle of the week?
Below a rather long quote from my lexicon. It's about the grammar of the word cause-to-cease.

H8811 (BestLex)
Imperfect

The imperfect expresses an action,  process or condition which is
incomplete
,  and it has a wide range of meaning:

1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact",  the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.

 He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?",  refers not only to the
present,  but assumes that the search has continued for some time.

Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion,  as to a
continued condition.

2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.

2a) In the present:

it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father

2b) In the past:

"and so he did"       -  regularly,  year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke"            -repeatedly

3) The imperfect is used to express the "future",  referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:


3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:

Now "shalt thou    See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house

3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to    See what "should be done"

4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation,  and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.

of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say

5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose",  "result" and so forth as,  "in order that",  "lest"; e.g.

say thou art my sister,  "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation,  "lest it multiplies"

5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose",  or when it
is meant to be strongly marked,  then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.

raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"

The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"

"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #129 on: December 04, 2011, 04:25:21 PM »
I believe He was born in fall 3BC. Baptized in fall 27AD (Yom Kippur) at the start of John's ministry and began His own ministry spring 28AD (Passover). So we seem to (mostly) agree on those dates.

405BC + 434 (62 weeks) = 30AD
That would make Him 32 of age in western counting and about 33 in Jewish counting.
Jews didn't know zero so they started the count at 1. It's like we say a baby is born at the age of 0 but in his/her 1st year of life.
But even if you define "about 30" in a different way He was still much older than "about 30" during baptism/start of His ministry.


I think if one adds 405 BC years and 29 AD years, the total number of years would be 434.
True. It depends on how that last year is counted. Does the count end when the 434th year starts or ends. I think ends other wise the week isn't complete.
-405+434=29. No year 0 so 30AD
Even if the beginning of the year is used it's 2 years to late. That said I'll read on because I think the answer I'm looking for is below  :winkgrin:


Quote
But, the problem is with the date 405 BC, which is 538 minus 133. This is a bit too simplistic. Since leap years occur about every third year, 49 leap years might occur in 131, or 132, or 133 years. The first leap year after 538 BC was 537 BC, and the 49th one was the year 407 BC. The start of the second section of 62 weeks would be the year 406 BC. It is also possible that the 62 weeks correspond to sabbatical cycles; the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is supposed to have happened at the end of a sabbatical year, according to a Jewish tradition. In that case the end of the second section of 62 weeks would be 27/28 AD, a sabbatical year according to Ben Zion Wacholder. Another theory by Benedict Zuckermann says the sabbatical year was one year previous.
So 405BC in your "70 weeks drawing" can also be 406BC or 407BC. Is that correct? (407-406BC is a Sabbath year)

My opinion is that His ministry started on a Sabbatical year (27-28). In the "usual" way of counting (day=year) all weeks start at a Sabbath year. It seems to me that your leap year system also need to align with that.
I find it also interesting that the "usual" day=year theory also points to 27-28AD.
Could it be that both ways are correct; God gave a double prophesy/pattern?

(I also very vaguely remember a way of counting that used Jubilees. But I don't remember any detail :sigh:)


Quote
My 70 weeks calculator displays all the dates. The same results are produced for 539, 538, and 537 BC.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #130 on: December 04, 2011, 05:02:07 PM »
Is it possible that the Jewish calculated calendar is the Babylonian calendar?
If so then 407-406BC was a leap year.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2011, 06:28:54 PM »
Is it possible that the Jewish calculated calendar is the Babylonian calendar?
If so then 407-406BC was a leap year.


It is not only possible, but likely that the Jewish and Babylonian calendars would correspond, in the period following the exile, IMO.

The wise men of ancient Babylon made very accurate observations of the positions of the sun and the moon over several centuries. Their observations revealed that the motions of the sun and moon relative to the earth followed a cycle of 19 years.

It is likely that this would have been known to Daniel, as according to Daniel 2:48, king Nebuchadnezzar made Daniel "chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon."

Knowledge of the 19-year cycle was used to regulate the calendar in Babylon a few decades after Daniel's time. It led to a more accurate determination of the length of the year and of the lunar month (or the synodic month).

In modern astronomy, the synodic month, the time between two successive New Moons, is 29.53059 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, 2.8 seconds). A tropical year is 365.24218967 days (365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.1875 seconds).

In ancient Babylon, observations and calculations were made, and recorded on clay tablets. The number system they employed was sexagesimal (base 60).  In that system we would write, "1 year = 12;22,6,20 months." The Babylonians determined that "19 years contain 7 intercalary months."

19 years = 19 × 12 + 7 = 235 synodic months

Thus, 19 years is a "week" of leap years.

Otto Neugebauer said the 19-year cycle was incorporated in the Babylonian calendar since the 5th century B.C. [A history of ancient mathematical astronomy, Volume 2. Birkhäuser, 1975. pp. 616, 622.]

See this post for more info.

Doug

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #132 on: December 04, 2011, 06:42:40 PM »
So 405BC in your "70 weeks drawing" can also be 406BC or 407BC. Is that correct?


The date in the graphic should probably be 406 BC, not 405 BC. I realize this now, after our discussion. So I probably should modify the date and upload a new graphic.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #133 on: December 04, 2011, 06:59:29 PM »
Is it possible that the Jewish calculated calendar is the Babylonian calendar?
If so then 407-406BC was a leap year.
It is not only possible, but likely that the Jewish and Babylonian calendars would correspond, in the period following the exile, IMO.
Surely there is a lot of Babylonian influence as cab seen from the month names.l  But I don't know if the Jews changed the calculations (slightly).
As you like know the Jews observed new moons until long after Jesus' died. They baicly just used 12 month years. When the barley crops weren't ready at Nisan they added a leap month. It's not entirely agreed upon what that mean for their calendar. In theory the leap months would be inserted about the same time as the calculated calendar. But in case of a cold winter it could be needed that an (extra) leap month was inserted. Other scholars claim the barley just was harvest from any Israelian field (not just near Jerusalem) and Palenstine. So there was always barley ready for harvest. The above could mess up 70 week calculations. Even teh month Jesus was crucified because in case of a cold winter Passover would be one month later.
Unless of course the 70 weeks are purely based on math.


Quote
Otto Neugebauer said the 19-year cycle was incorporated in the Babylonian calendar since the 5th century B.C. [A history of ancient mathematical astronomy, Volume 2. Birkhäuser, 1975. pp. 616, 622.]

See this post for more info.
I now have 4 ways that point to a 31 AD crucifixion. So a safe bet. Unfortunaly also a bit problematic :laughing7: because it means a monday crucifixion....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #134 on: December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PM »
I now have 4 ways that point to a 31 AD crucifixion. So a safe bet. Unfortunaly also a bit problematic :laughing7: because it means a monday crucifixion....


I don't see any reason to prefer 31 AD as the crucifixion date. If it points to a Monday crucifixion, that is a good reason to reject it. The time Jesus was in the tomb was not 5 days, but 3.

A 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.

Doug


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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #135 on: December 04, 2011, 08:54:59 PM »
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #136 on: December 04, 2011, 09:06:03 PM »
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
 :dontknow:


Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]

What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #137 on: December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM »
This argument begs the question;  Daymond Duck assumes what he attempts to prove. Furthermore, Duck misrepresents the prophecy of Daniel 2. Here, the stone was cut out without hands smote the image upon his feet. In the days of the fourth kingdom or empire, that consists of iron and clay, God sets up his kingdom. This fourth kingdom is identified with the Roman empire by most commentators.

Daniel 2:42-43
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Dougs quote above

------------------------------------------------------

The days of these kings


Which kings?

If the first king, which is king of Babylon Nebu the head of gold, that means the kingdom of God, is Israel, since Jesus did not arrive at this point neither John the baptist preaching the coming of the kingdom.

But if it means the 10 toe kingdoms, then God has yet to set up a kingdom, which destroys these other kingdoms.

I guess your view is that th 10 toes are Roman, and that coincides with the kingdom of God during Jesus time.

So my challenge to you is to name these 10 kingdoms, that operated during the time of Jesus time.

Here is what you must have in order to fullfill the scripture.
These 10 horns must be independent states, that are an alliance of nations. Then these independent states must be weakened, as part of clay and part of Iron. During these times these 10 kings must also give their power and kingdoms to the beast, for they do not have kingdoms, until one hour with the beast.

So if the 4th Iron beast is Rome.
There must be 10 nations/kings, that give their kingdom to the Roman empire out of choice, not out of battle. These 10 kings must make war with the lamb and also war against, mystery babylon and destroy her.

I believe that the 4th Iron beast has yet to arrive on the world scene. My interpreatation of Daniels beasts is very different from classical ideas. But I am not finished with my research, there is a mysterious problem to overcome with my interpretation, but I find that the classical interpretation of the four beasts has multiple problems.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 10:36:51 PM by thinktank »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #138 on: December 04, 2011, 11:16:52 PM »

The days of these kings


Which kings?

If the first king, which is king of Babylon Nebu the head of gold, that means the kingdom of God, is Israel, since Jesus did not arrive at this point neither John the baptist preaching the coming of the kingdom.

But if it means the 10 toe kingdoms, then God has yet to set up a kingdom, which destroys these other kingdoms.

I guess your view is that th 10 toes are Roman, and that coincides with the kingdom of God during Jesus time.

So my challenge to you is to name these 10 kingdoms, that operated during the time of Jesus time.


The vision Daniel described in chapter 2 does not mention 10 kingdoms, but different kinds of materials; gold, silver, brass, iron and clay. The implication is that the value and quality becomes less, while the iron and clay depict strength and weakness respectively. This applies to the earthly kingdoms and empires of man since Daniel's time.

Daniel 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The stone that grows to a mountain and fills the earth is Christ and his kingdom, the saints.


Here is what you must have in order to fullfill the scripture.
These 10 horns must be independent states, that are an alliance of nations. Then these independent states must be weakened, as part of clay and part of Iron. During these times these 10 kings must also give their power and kingdoms to the beast, for they do not have kingdoms, until one hour with the beast.


You have jumped from Daniel to Revelation. No doubt, the visions are related, but why should the ten horns of the beast be limited to a literal ten kings? What are the 7 heads? In prophecy, numbers are often symbolic, rather than literal. The Roman Empire was organized into provinces, and these were grouped into dioceses. These were the foundations of states that eventually emerged as nations. Their territories were in constant revision. 


So if the 4th Iron beast is Rome.
There must be 10 nations/kings, that give their kingdom to the Roman empire out of choice, not out of battle. These 10 kings must make war with the lamb and also war against, mystery babylon and destroy her.

I believe that the 4th Iron beast has yet to arrive on the world scene. My interpreatation of Daniels beasts is very different from classical ideas. But I am not finished with my research, there is a mysterious problem to overcome with my interpretation, but I find that the classical interpretation of the four beasts has multiple problems.


It seems misguided, IMO, to insist on a literal ten nations or kings existing at some particular time, when the prophecy in Daniel 2 spans all history. This is also true, I think, about the beast in Revelation 13. One thing to notice is that its 7 heads have in them the "names of blasphemy." The labels "Christian," "Holy," or, in the modern age, "Israel," might fulfill this. There is an examination of some of the attempted interpretations of the ten horns in this post.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #139 on: December 04, 2011, 11:52:46 PM »
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
 :dontknow:


Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]

What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?

Doug
I think it points to Passover. For example at the wedding at Cana He says that it's not His time yet.
There is also indirect evidence related to the Temple in 405BC
Conception of Jesus  <===> Dedication of the Temple  <===> Hanukkah
Birth of Jesus   <===> Altar erected  <===> Rosh Hasannah
Restoration of Temple worship  <===> Start Ministry  <===> Passover
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #140 on: December 04, 2011, 11:54:11 PM »
A 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2011, 12:08:28 AM »

Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]

What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?

Doug

I think it points to Passover. For example at the wedding at Cana He says that it's not His time yet.


Mark 1:1 says, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; ..." and there follows an account of John the Baptist.

This suggests to me that Mark wished to include John's ministry together with that of Jesus. John's ministry was a necessary prelude to it.

Doug



Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2011, 12:23:46 AM »
A 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?


Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9

Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.

Doug

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #143 on: December 05, 2011, 12:43:54 AM »

The days of these kings


Which kings?

If the first king, which is king of Babylon Nebu the head of gold, that means the kingdom of God, is Israel, since Jesus did not arrive at this point neither John the baptist preaching the coming of the kingdom.

But if it means the 10 toe kingdoms, then God has yet to set up a kingdom, which destroys these other kingdoms.

I guess your view is that th 10 toes are Roman, and that coincides with the kingdom of God during Jesus time.

So my challenge to you is to name these 10 kingdoms, that operated during the time of Jesus time.


The vision Daniel described in chapter 2 does not mention 10 kingdoms, but different kinds of materials; gold, silver, brass, iron and clay. The implication is that the value and quality becomes less, while the iron and clay depict strength and weakness respectively. This applies to the earthly kingdoms and empires of man since Daniel's time.

Daniel 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The stone that grows to a mountain and fills the earth is Christ and his kingdom, the saints.


Here is what you must have in order to fullfill the scripture.
These 10 horns must be independent states, that are an alliance of nations. Then these independent states must be weakened, as part of clay and part of Iron. During these times these 10 kings must also give their power and kingdoms to the beast, for they do not have kingdoms, until one hour with the beast.


You have jumped from Daniel to Revelation. No doubt, the visions are related, but why should the ten horns of the beast be limited to a literal ten kings? What are the 7 heads? In prophecy, numbers are often symbolic, rather than literal. The Roman Empire was organized into provinces, and these were grouped into dioceses. These were the foundations of states that eventually emerged as nations. Their territories were in constant revision. 


So if the 4th Iron beast is Rome.
There must be 10 nations/kings, that give their kingdom to the Roman empire out of choice, not out of battle. These 10 kings must make war with the lamb and also war against, mystery babylon and destroy her.

I believe that the 4th Iron beast has yet to arrive on the world scene. My interpreatation of Daniels beasts is very different from classical ideas. But I am not finished with my research, there is a mysterious problem to overcome with my interpretation, but I find that the classical interpretation of the four beasts has multiple problems.


It seems misguided, IMO, to insist on a literal ten nations or kings existing at some particular time, when the prophecy in Daniel 2 spans all history. This is also true, I think, about the beast in Revelation 13. One thing to notice is that its 7 heads have in them the "names of blasphemy." The labels "Christian," "Holy," or, in the modern age, "Israel," might fulfill this. There is an examination of some of the attempted interpretations of the ten horns in this post.

Doug


Doug, the 10 kings I said were the 10 toes. Not only are these 10 horns paralleled in the book of revelation, but also shown as 10 toes.

The 10 kings are the last part of the statue, because they only exist at the very end and in the book of rev, they do battle against Jesus Christ, the king of kings and his saints.

The angel says to Daniel that the head of gold is King Nebu, the first part of the image. The statue gets built from head downwards. The next empire is silver.

The book of daniel shows that a horn = a king
A head = King of empire.

King Nebu is the first head the first empire of Babylon.


Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #144 on: December 05, 2011, 02:57:56 AM »
PREMILLENNIALISM

By Daymond Duck

...

7) Jesus will send forth His angels to remove the wicked from the earth at His Second Coming (Matthew 13:36-43; 47-51). Since the wicked are removed before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established, the Second Coming will be BEFORE the Millennium.


The parable of the tares in Matthew 13 refutes Premillennialism,  as the parable says that the tares are to be gathered out of his kingdom. This implies the kingdom already exists, and in it there are both kinds of things, tares and wheat. At the end of the world the tares are gathered up, bundled, and burned. 

Matthew 13:40-41
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;



8) Jesus told Christians to watch for the Second Coming, but there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming if it is after the Church wins most of the world to Christ (Postmillennialism). No matter how long the Millennium is there is no need to watch for the Second Coming if the Church must convert the world first.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd9.html


Dispensationalists say the rapture comes before the seven year tribulation, which is followed by the millennium. Do they watch for the Second Coming? Or the secret rapture? Or do they look for signs of the great tribulation? Or the rise of the Antichrist? Or a literal temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem? Or the rise in buzzard populations in Palestine? Or threats of an invasion by Russia, Iran, and other Arab nations on the Jewish state? Where did Jesus say to watch for the second coming? Jesus said,

Matthew 24:15-17
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

The dispensationalists say that this applies to ethnic Jews. They will have to flee, when some sort of abomination appears, presumably in Jerusalem. They expect it to be a portent of something terrible. 

But Jesus also said:

Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Only very rarely do they mention this verse, in connection with Matthew 24:15. Jesus clearly was not saying to flee to save your own life, as that would contradict what he said in Luke 17:33. I suggest that Jesus meant flee to the things that mountains in Scripture represent, the promises of God. The mountains he meant are symbolic. David said:

Psalm 36:6
Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.

Psalm 72:3
The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

The mountains represent God's righteousness, and Jesus recommends that we seek his kingdom, and his righteousness. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." [Matthew 6:33]

The kingdom of God is a "mountain" that is to fill the earth. In Revelation 20:4, those who are "beheaded" reign with Christ. The kingdom of Christ is everlasting. The Psalmist said, "Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations." [Psalm 145:13]

Daniel wrote:

Daniel 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dispensationalists who say that Christ's kingdom is to last for a thousand years misread Revelation 20, where it says the saints who are beheaded
reign with Christ for a thousand years; nowhere does it say that Christ reigns a thousand years. His reign is depicted as everlasting. A thousand years is a mere "watch in the night" compared to Christ's reign. "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." [Psalm 90:4]

When Jesus said "watch," was he referring to this "watch in the night"? Is it the "thousand years" for which the saints are reigning in their present lives? Indeed, we are said to "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:6] And we are also warned to watch, as that is equivalent to reigning with Christ! "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." [Matthew 24:42]

Here are a few more warnings to "watch."

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mark 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Mark 13:35
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Dispensationalism misleads people, saying the kingdom is not yet. They put them to sleep! We need to wake up, and watch, because now is when we are reigning with Christ. Watch out that we are not found among the things that offend, tares that are to be uprooted and destroyed!

Doug


Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #145 on: December 05, 2011, 03:48:46 AM »
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

The dispensationalists say that this applies to ethnic Jews. They will have to flee, when some sort of abomination appears, presumably in Jerusalem. They expect it to be a portent of something terrible. 

But Jesus also said:

Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Only very rarely do they mention this verse, in connection with Matthew 24:15. Jesus clearly was not saying to flee to save your own life, as that would contradict what he said in Luke 17:33. I suggest that Jesus meant flee to the things that mountains in Scripture represent, the promises of God. The mountains he meant are symbolic. David said:


Doug




This is misleading. Luke is saying to not save our life?

If that is the case why did Jesus speak to the Jews to literally flee, when Jerusalem is encampassed by armies. In Ad70 the christians took Jesus advice and were saved from slaughter by the Romans.


But the scripture has yet to reach its full conclusion on these matters, when the abomination of desolation enters the third temple.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #146 on: December 05, 2011, 04:14:01 AM »


"abomination of desolation"


Is man ruled by wretched thought and emotion instead of His Christ.

There is only One Place called His Temple; if He is not in it — YOU ARE!

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #147 on: December 05, 2011, 04:24:44 AM »


"abomination of desolation"


Is man ruled by wretched thought and emotion instead of His Christ.

There is only One Place called His Temple; if He is not in it — YOU ARE!
:thumbsup:

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #148 on: December 05, 2011, 04:41:34 AM »


"abomination of desolation"


Is man ruled by wretched thought and emotion instead of His Christ.

There is only One Place called His Temple; if He is not in it — YOU ARE!


That's why only those who are beheaded reign with Christ.

Doug

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #149 on: December 05, 2011, 04:53:33 AM »

YES!

That's why Jesus said to Peter get behind me Satan!

It was SELF trying to save SELF!






It's a MIRACLE!