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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2011, 04:52:04 PM »
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My  :2c:

Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.

10x10x10=1000

Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.
http://www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org/Tabernacle/tabernacle_temple_of_time.htm
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2011, 04:56:34 PM »
 :cloud9: I'll read the link when I have more time.....just a thought, though......if you were God trying to express/describe soemthing spiritual in a literal natural realm, a measurement of something immeasurable, how would you do it? Food for thmeght..... :winkgrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sheila

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2011, 05:39:20 PM »
.....angelic cubic....Christ...the breadth,width and depth...Ephesians 3;18...and to know this love that surpasses knowledge[tokogae]

    enlarging the heart....to the salvation of all,with complete victory over every enemy..even death...in Christ

   love grows....until the whole measure is leavened.

 

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2011, 06:32:53 PM »
PREMILLENNIALISM

By Daymond Duck


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are three major views about how the Second Coming relates to the Millennium:

1) Premillennialism

2) Postmillenialism

3) Amillennialism


What are these three major views? Could they be merely the opinions of Gentiles who trample the holy city?

Jesus said, "they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." [Luke 21:24] If he referred to the Church, which is the real holy city, of which the earthly Jerusalem was a type and a shadow, the saints are scattered among tens of thousands of sects and denominations where they are captive to all sorts of different interpretations. This may be portrayed in Zechariah 14:1-3, where the armies of the nations come against the holy city, and half of the city goes into captivity. The "spoil" divided in the midst, includes the promises of God that belong to the Church.

If the holy city is seen to be the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, Premillennialism, Postmillenialism, and Amillennialism may be identified with some of the armies that lay siege to the city. They are views that tend to divide and separate the saints from each other, and scatter the flock.

Besides those views, another interpretation says that the thousand years of Revelation 20 is symbolic, and represents a portion of the lifetimes of individual Christians; the time for which they reign with Christ, in the present age. So the thousand years represents an individual and personal period; a stage in the development of a Christian, prior to the eternal state. On the other hand, each of the three views listed above says the thousand years is universal.

We believe Premillennialism is the right view for many reasons:

1) Isaiah prophesied the birth of Jesus (it was a literal birth) and that the government will be upon His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6).


Jesus reigns on the throne of his father David. He said, in his message to the church at Philadelphia, "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" [Revelation 3:7]

The key of David represents authority over Jerusalem, and Israel. Only those whose minds Christ has opened, can really understand that he reigns on the throne of David as king, and is Lord over all. Those who are figuratively beheaded and who do not worship the beast, reign with him.


2) The Bible prophesies an earthly reign or earthly government of Jesus (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 14:9).


King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed, and told his dream to Daniel. He said:

Daniel 4:16-17
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

The lesson that God taught to Nebuchadnezzar was that "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men."

Thus, having ascended to heaven, to God's throne, Jesus reigns in the throne of God, and over the nations. He said to his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." [Matthew 28:18]

Paul said of Jesus:

Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Premillennialism, on the other hand, calls into question the authority of Christ. 

Doug
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 06:46:34 PM by Doug »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2011, 08:01:18 PM »
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.

Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My  :2c:

A shadow of the 1000 year sabbath rest to come.  :icon_flower:

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2011, 09:21:12 PM »

3) The Bible teaches that the believers who are killed during the Tribulation Period will reign on the earth in the future (Revelation 5:10).


Revelation 5:7-10
 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This is referring to the four beasts, and 24 elders.

It is quite a stretch, to conclude that Revelation 5:10 refers to believers who killed during the future Tribulation that is imagined by the Premillennialists and dispensationalists. But, this does provide an example of the sort of flawed "scholarship" that many Premillennialists are guilty of. IMO it is shameful. Both the articles intended to support Premillennialism actually seem to discredit that position, as several of the Scripture references cited by the authors do not support what they claimed.


It teaches that these Tribulation Period saints will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after Satan is seized, bound and chained (Revelation 20:1-4).


Another questionable statement; in fact, only the ones who are beheaded reign with Christ; not people devoured by lions in the arena, not the people who died by crucifixion, or torture, or who were burned. Not the people who died of disease, or famine, or old age. That is what John says, literally; nothing about "Tribulation Period saints." Unless... they were also "beheaded" in the sense John meant, which could apply to any of these. 

To be beheaded should be interpreted spiritually, as referring to someone who "mortifies the deeds of the body" as Paul said; "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." [Romans 8:13] "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" [Colossians 3:5]

Both these examples, of course, are figurative; how much more John's use of "beheaded" in Revelation 20:4 where he refers to it in a prophecy!

Paul also said, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." [Romans 6:6] If we are all in a sense "crucified," why not also understand "beheaded" as a metaphor with a spiritual meaning? Paul said,

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Was Paul literally crucified? No, it is figurative.

The reign of the saints who are figuratively "beheaded" corresponds to the time when Satan is bound; this must be something personal and individual, even as it was for Jesus.

Doug

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2011, 10:28:17 PM »
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.

Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My  :2c:

A shadow of the 1000 year sabbath rest to come.  :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: But here's the rub.....if we enter into Him, then we've entered into that rest. As He said, I AM the resurrection. How much or how little seems to come to a matter of how developed our faith is. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2011, 11:47:40 PM »
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.

Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My  :2c:

A shadow of the 1000 year sabbath rest to come.  :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: But here's the rub.....if we enter into Him, then we've entered into that rest. As He said, I AM the resurrection. How much or how little seems to come to a matter of how developed our faith is. My  :2c:

But the best wine is saved for last

Mark 14:25
 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Amos 9:14
 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.


Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2011, 04:05:39 PM »
PREMILLENNIALISM

By Daymond Duck

...

4) Since Satan will be bound, chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years at the Second Coming (Revelation 20:2-3), the Millennium won't start until the Second Coming takes place.


Neither the article by Daymond Duck nor the previous one posted by Molly, that was written by K. Neill Foster, an evangelist in the Christian and Missionary Alliance, make any mention of the rebellion at the end of the thousand years which John identifies with Gog and Magog, by deceived people who come against the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, which is an obvious reference to the Church.

Are we to imagine that deceived people on earth will assault the saints who possess immortality who reign in the Millennium? They do not say.

When John refers to the thousand years, it is associated with the period for which the beheaded saints who do not worship the beast reign with Christ. It is also the time when Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. John mentions the bottomless pit in chapter 9:1-2, where smoke like the smoke of a great furnace comes from the bottomless pit, and in vs. 11, the king of the horrid scorpion-locusts is the "angel" of the bottomless pit, who most consider to be Satan.

In Revelation 11:7, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit makes war with the two witnesses and kills them. In Revelation 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." In Revelation 20:3 Satan is bound by an angel who came down from heaven, and cast into the bottomless pit.

The last reference speaks of Satan being cast into the bottomless pit; the previous ones are about the beast ascending out of the pit. The beast who ascends from the pit in Revelation 11:7 and 17:8 is Satan, identified with the serpent in Revelation 20:2. He was cast into the pit, before he ascended out of it. Jesus referred to binding the strong man, when the scribes accused him of casting out demons by Beelzebub or Satan. [Mark 3:22-27] The "strong man" alludes to Satan, and his being bound relates to Revelation 20:1-2, where Satan is bound with a great chain by an angel from heaven. 

While Jesus described Satan being bound, and implied that he had "bound the strong man," and said that he saw him fall from heaven like lightning, [Luke 10:18]  these are things that were true for him personally. In the rest of the world, Satan continued to function as usual.

Evidently, the binding of Satan and his being cast out of heaven applied to Jesus, and to his disciples, on a personal and individual level. Note that Satan still entered into Judas, when he betrayed Jesus to the Jews. [Luke 22:3] Satan also influenced Ananias, when he lied to the apostle Peter. [Acts 5:3] Was Satan bound, for Ananias, when be believed the gospel? I think so. But Ananias "loosed" Satan from the pit, and allowed him to ascend to heaven, in his mind, to the place of God, and Ananias followed Satan when he lied to Peter.

Paul spoke of delivering certain people unto Satan.

1 Timothy 1:19-20
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The point is that for Paul, Satan was bound, but he was loosed for Hymenaeus and Alexander who were "delivered unto Satan." The status of Satan must be something that applies on an individual level. This was true for Jesus, Peter, and Paul. And I believe that it is what John describes in Revelation 20, where he describes the binding of Satan.

When Satan is "loosed a little season" at the end of the thousand years, this also applies on an individual level. For those who remain faithful, he is never loosed. It only applies to those for whom the thousand years come to an end. This "thousand years" is an expression that we would normally take to indicate far more than a normal life span, yet in Genesis, there are many names of people who are said to have lived almost that long. None of the lifetimes exceeded a thousand years. For a Christian, who reigns with Christ, for whom Satan is bound, his life here in the earth is a foretaste and a prelude for the eternal future state. A thousand years is tiny compared to eternity.

In Scripture, a thousand years is also related to a portion of a human lifetime.

Ecclesiastes 6:6
Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

For the Psalmist, a thousand years is identified with "yesterday when it is past."

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

This is of special interest to Christians, as once we are given immortality, the whole of our present lives will seem like "yesterday when it is past." I suggest this meaning fits the expression "a thousand years" better than the idea promoted by Duck and Foster, that it means a future Millennium that ends in worldwide rebellion.

Why do those writers avoid mention of the Gog and Magog invasion at the end of the thousand years? Their list of arguments supporting premillennialism is partial and therefore deceptive. They select portions of what John wrote, avoiding the rest. They also ignore the fact that John specified only those who are "beheaded" as those who reign with Christ. He did not say "martyrs." He did not mean martyrs. He meant "beheaded" in a spiritual sense; equivalent to a "circumcised heart." Moses said, "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." [Deuteronomy 10:16]

Paul said,

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

He identified believers of all nationalities with the true circumcision.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

He said it is a circumcision "made without hands."

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The beheading that John describes is spiritual or metaphorical, like the circumcision that Paul refers to. The thousand years is symbolic, and applies to every believer on a personal and individual level. Revelation 20:1-3 does not support the idea of a future Millennium that ends in general rebellion of humans all over the earth.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2011, 04:44:50 PM »
Nice post, Doug.  Very well put together and presented.

But, why can't it be both?

We understand that the Christ is being birthed in us, as we grow up into him in all things.

But, that doesn't negate the fact that 2000 years ago a real child was born who is our Savior and Lord.



For to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. [Lk 2:11]

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2011, 05:19:46 PM »
Nice post, Doug.  Very well put together and presented.

But, why can't it be both?


Thanks, Molly. The big problem with a literal Millennium, is that it ends in general rebellion. This is inconsistent with what is said of the world's future, and the time of "restitution of all things." That phrase, "restitution of all things," implies that there will be no more deception, no more general rebellion. Think about it; when the saints are immortal, reigning on the earth, how can deceived nations from all over the earth gather to attack them? That only makes sense in the present world. Even then, it applies spiritually. The weapons are primitive. And the destruction that comes upon them makes little sense, if taken literally. How can birds and beasts eat their corpses, which generate a great stench, and drink their blood, if they are all buried in the valley of Hamongog? [Ez. 39:11] Why are horses and chariots on the menu?  :Sparkletooth:

And, before all this, they are rained on with "overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone." They fight themselves, "I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother" [Ez. 38:21].

And all this, it is claimed, if it is the same event that John describes, happens at the end of the thousand year reign, when "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." [Isa. 2:4] Of course, the ideas contradict.
 
The idea of a thousand year earthly reign, before the judgment, contradicts a number of scriptures.

Hebrews 9:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It does not say: "as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the thousand year reign, followed by the judgment."

At the seventh trumpet, we read:

Revelation 11:17-18
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The idea of a general rebellion a thousand years after this, seems too much of a stretch; it boggles the mind!

Doug

Offline sheila

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2011, 06:05:04 PM »
   I see the re-emergence os satan out of the abyss as the 'falling away' prophesied about[turned aside from doctrines of demons]

   I see the 'wrath of God' or eaonian punishment as while in flesh[and alienated from God,enemies in our mind to Him]

 I perceive...   the not being forgiven in this age or the next..referring to refusing of Jesus Christ under law covenant[tokogae] of which law covenant was to lead to..

  and the next age[grace TOL renewl,born from above in this time in flesh

    I see the harvest as wrath and destruction of all evil seed permanantly and good seed gathered[fire come down and destroyed those that encircled the camp]

    then the Holy city coming down to new earth=permant restoration of all for eternity

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »
However you see it, THIS will be a reality:


They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.[Isa 11:9]

Offline sheila

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2011, 06:18:11 PM »
Amen!

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2011, 06:30:14 PM »
However you see it, THIS will be a reality:


They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.[Isa 11:9]


In Revelation 20:7-9, John says:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The fire coming down from God is not literal fire; the word of God is called fire, in several scriptures.

Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Jeremiah 5:14
Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Fire from heaven falls upon those who hurt the two witnesses:

Revelation 11:4-6
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

The prophecy of Isaiah about the knowledge of the Lord filling the earth as waters cover the sea, combined with Jeremiah's metaphor of the word of God being a fire, leads naturally to the concept of a "lake of fire."

And the lake of fire is mentioned in Rev. 20:10, after the destruction of the hordes of Gog and Magog. It is "fire" for those who don't know God, but those reigning with Christ are not hurt by it.  [vs. 6]

Doug

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #115 on: December 03, 2011, 04:07:14 PM »
PREMILLENNIALISM

By Daymond Duck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

5) In Daniel chapter 2, the Rock (Second Coming of Jesus) will destroy the final Gentile world kingdom BEFORE the Rock fills the whole earth (Jesus will return and destroy the world government of the Antichrist before He establishes the Millennial Kingdom).


This argument begs the question; Duck assumes what he attempts to prove. Furthermore, Duck misrepresents the prophecy of Daniel 2. Here, the stone was cut out without hands smote the image upon his feet. In the days of the fourth kingdom or empire, that consists of iron and clay, God sets up his kingdom. This fourth kingdom is identified with the Roman empire by most commentators.

Daniel 2:42-43
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The words "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom" clearly show that Christ's kingdom is contemporary with those kings; it has existed since the day of Pentecost after his resurrection. That is what Peter meant, when he said to the Jews, "God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." [Acts 2:36]


6) Israel must complete all seventy weeks of her punishment BEFORE she stops rebelling against God and before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established (Daniel 9:24). Since the seventieth week will end with the Second Coming of Jesus, this means the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium.


The "punishment" referred to probably alludes to Leviticus 26, which specifies four periods of seven times of punishment under the Old Covenant. In the exile in Babylon, Daniel said the curse of the law of Moses had been poured out. Thus, the 70 years of exile in Babylon can be identified with the first of the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. The remaining three periods of seven times can be identified with the three sections of the seventy weeks, each of which is seven times, where "times" takes different units. In the first section of seven weeks, the seven times are seven weeks of leap years of 13 months, or 49 leap years. This spans 133 years. In the second section, the times are 62 years each, or 62 sabbatical cycles of seven years, which are equivalent. These span 434 years. Together the first two sections add up to 567 years, which is the interval between the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC, and the ministry of Jesus, 28 AD.

The final week includes the ministry of Jesus as the first half week, and the last half week, the time, times and a half, is the whole age of the church. Jesus confirms his covenant with many for the entire 70th week. Below is a graphic illustrating this view of the 70 weeks.




The covenant includes the promise of a kingdom, [James 2:5] and that would seem to imply that the thousand years when the saints who are beheaded reign with Christ must be included in the last week. Daniel describes Christ's reign as contemporary with the little horn of the fourth beast in chapter 7.

Daniel 7:9-10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

When does this fiery stream proceed from before the throne? For the whole church age. Jesus said, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" [Luke 12:49]

Daniel 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Christ's kingdom is eternal, but in the church age, individuals of every age reign with him, for a portion of their lives, which is a foretaste and an "earnest" of their eternal inheritance. Thus it is represented by the symbolic number, a thousand years. It signifies completeness, and a thousand is also associated with the dimensions of the holy city; 12,000 are sealed from each tribe; the width, breadth and height are 12,000 furlongs, etc. These numbers are symbolic, as they apply to a holy, spiritual, eternal city. [Hebrews 13:14]

Doug
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 05:43:58 PM by Doug »

Offline sheila

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #116 on: December 03, 2011, 05:55:33 PM »
 :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #117 on: December 03, 2011, 08:52:42 PM »
Doug,

538BC+49  isn't 405BC

??

BTW what's your source for the 538 BC date?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #118 on: December 03, 2011, 10:08:16 PM »
Doug,

538BC+49  isn't 405BC

??


In my post, I have used leap years, for determining the length of the first section of the 70 weeks. These are years with 13 months in the Babylonian (and Jewish) calendars. The Babylonians determined that there were 235 synodic months in 19 years. That is, in 19 years, there are 12 regular years of 12 months, and 7 leap years with 13 months. Counting only the years with 13 months, seven weeks of years of 13 months is 19 x 7 = 133 years. Thus, if weeks of leap years are the correct units for the first section, 49 leap years spans 133 years, and the first section of the 70 weeks ends in 405 BC.


BTW what's your source for the 538 BC date?


The consensus of scholars is that the fall of Babylon was 539 BC; 538 is in the first year of Cyrus. Daniel gave the first year of Darius as the year of his vision in chapter 9. This Darius was identified as Cyrus by OT scholar D. J. Wiseman. One of his arguments was based on the correspondence of their ages. Cyrus is thought to have been born in 600 BC. Daniel gave the age of Darius when he became king as 62, which is very close to the age of Cyrus, as determined by the historians and scholars. 62 years is the unit of "times" in the second section of the 70 weeks. See this article.

For the seventieth week, note that the part of it that followed the resurrection of Jesus applies not to the earthly Jerusalem, but the heavenly one, and earth days, earth months, and earth years do not measure time for things of a heavenly and spiritual nature; the "time, times and a half" and the numbers associated with it are not natural days or years, but symbolic, as they apply to the heavenly Jerusalem and the age of the church, or portions of it.

Doug


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #119 on: December 03, 2011, 10:49:25 PM »
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #120 on: December 03, 2011, 11:15:01 PM »
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?


Part of the 70 weeks prophecy applies to the earthly city of Jerusalem, and the units are in terms of real earth time, for that portion. Units may vary in the various sections, or else, why have three sections? Why not say, sixty and nine weeks?

I suggest they are weeks of leap years in the first section, and 62 sabbatical cycles, of 7 years, for the second, which is the same as seven times where times are 62 years in length. This works out correctly to the time of Jesus, as I showed earlier. 

Isaiah 2:1-3, which applies to mount Zion and Jerusalem, says "the mountain of the Lord's house" will be established in the tops of the mountains and established above the hills, and that happened, I think, when Jesus ascended to heaven. After that, the units of time that apply to it are no longer earth days, earth months, or earth years. They are symbolic, as Jerusalem was raised up, and became a heavenly city, while the earthly one was identified with Hagar the Egyptian, and Sinai, a mountain in Arabia, Paul says. [Galatians 4:25-26] Hagar was cast out of Abraham's household.

The part of the 70 weeks prophecy for which the time units are not in terms of real earth days, earth months, earth years, etc., is the last half of the 70th week, which is also the "time, times and a half," a symbolic period, a spiritual half week, which completes the week in which Jesus confirms his covenant with his saints. The last half week spans the whole age of the church.

The New Testament depicts Jerusalem as raised up to heaven, which fulfills Isaiah's prophecy, and also one in Zechariah 14:10, that says it would be raised up, and the surrounding country would become a plain. The earth movements here are not literal, but have to be interpreted spiritually; attempts to say they are literal lead to contradictions. For example, several scriptures speak of the "everlasting hills." How can they be everlasting, if all the territory around Jerusalem literally becomes a plain? 

Doug

« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 11:21:17 PM by Doug »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #121 on: December 03, 2011, 11:55:15 PM »
Not saying there are no "spiritual weeks" but the end of the 70th week, 3.5 years after crucifixion, marks the start of the Gospel to the Gentiles I think.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #122 on: December 03, 2011, 11:55:33 PM »
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?

 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #123 on: December 04, 2011, 12:15:15 AM »
Doug,

538BC+49  isn't 405BC

??

Thus, if weeks of leap years are the correct units for the first section, 49 leap years spans 133 years, and the first section of the 70 weeks ends in 405 BC.
Understood.
That would make Him 32 years old at the start of His ministry in 30AD. That's not "about 30".
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #124 on: December 04, 2011, 12:53:49 AM »
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?

 :thumbsup:

Lest some person reading this get a false impression, I did not claim "It's all a spiritual metaphor," whatever that might mean. But I have supported the idea that human units such as cubits, and furlongs, in Revelation 21, used to give the dimensions of the heavenly Jerusalem, have to be understood figuratively and spiritually, and John says that the cubits, that apply to the wall, are cubits of an angel, and I take this to mean that they are not meant literally, but are figurative and have to be understood as having some spiritual meaning. And I believe the same applies to time units that apply to the heavenly city, such as the 1,260 days, the 1,290 days, the 1,335 days, and the "time, times and a half." It would also apply to the "thousand years" for which the beheaded saints reign with Christ, as his throne is heavenly and spiritual in nature. These conclusions are supported in part by what John wrote about the units for the dimension of the wall of the holy city, suggesting they are angelic cubits.

Another point is that the gates in the wall are said to be each one a single pearl. This gives rise to the expression "pearly gates." I don't believe we need to imagine monster sized oysters in a heavenly ocean. I think the pearl is symbolic, perhaps alluding to the "pearl of great price" in the parable of Jesus. Taken literally, those gates would have to be viewed as very tiny, indeed.

Doug