Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 55973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2011, 11:39:16 PM »
micah
"Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream,..." TT
For a surety I don't understand, ' if you were here many years ago?'

TT
Once upon a time you said you had dreams and believed ,in such, as I presented here and embraced the gifts of the spirit such as tongues.

micah
I also reason that when I start off on the wrong foot, or begin to build and the first brick or board is not square or plumb, then what ever I do from that point on will not be right. I do not believe in a rapture, I believe that those who are hearing are being caught up now, I cannot understand, """I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost."

--------------------
TT
We all know your viewpoint concerning the spirit/ soul. Maybe you are correct in part, maybe only certain people continue to live after they die. Maybe most of humanity see themselves as dust, so to dust they return. But those who see themselves as spirit give it life and so live, so maybe those of other religions(those that emphasize spirit) continue to live as an antichrist unclean spirit, unwashed in the blood of the lamb, wanderers of the earth, lost. I think Taff said that death can live, if it desires.

----------


micah

As well as, " As I thought these thoughts I began to slow down and felt heavier...." TT

I do understand this,   for many times in my walk "my" thoughts have made me heavy and my upward rise is slowed greatly, even all the way down and I have to pray through my weaknesses, and the Lord must get me started again correctly. When the Lord revealed to me the strength of the resurrection [to rise again or rising again] my walk has become much easier and lighter. I always thought that the resurrection was a one time thing, I know now that it is not, it is a RISING AGAIN.
What a Wonderful Lord, Mat 18:22 Jesus is saying to him, "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven,


TT
I see it as both. That we change from glory to glory, but yet the resurection does a quick work in our mortal bodies, that we become immortal in a twinkling of an eye, so that we may receive the things done in their bodies, whether they be good or evil. So the more good, the greater glory of the body.


Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5707
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2011, 12:37:37 AM »
If that is how you understand your dream, then so be it. May the Lord continue to bless you. :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2011, 12:46:50 AM »
The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.


The millenium may not make sense to you at this time, but deleting verses out of the bible is not a good way of coming to the truth.

Peace.

Notice that the thousand years in Revelation 20:5 is called "the first resurrection." This is how we should understand it, I think, in every instance in Chapter 20. Paul wrote:

Romans 6:3-6
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Here we have a death, a burial, and a resurrection, as "newness of life" following one's death is actually a kind of "resurrection," isn't it? The same is true in Revelation 20, except that John does not speak of burial. He speaks of "beheading," which is usually fatal. He speaks of a "first resurrection," and later a "second death." But all these must be figurative and spiritual.

When John speaks of "the rest of the dead," in verse 5, isn't this referring to those who have never heard or believed the Gospel? Jesus said to a man who wanted to join his ministry, but first wanted to see to his father's burial; "Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." [Luke 9:60] Paul wrote, "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." [1 Timothy 5:6] In each case, "dead" is meant in a spiritual sense. Those who do not believe the Gospel, and follow Christ, are spiritually "dead." John refers to such, when he writes, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." [Revelation 20:5] Of course I would never delete such a verse, as it is this verse that defines an explains what John meant by "a thousand years." And furthermore, there is something wonderful implied in the verse, which is, that the "rest of the dead," (most of humanity) will indeed "live again," and IMO we may quite reasonably infer they will live in the sense that those who reign with Christ are said to participate in the first resurrection, that is they will believe the Gospel and find salvation, during the time of the judgment, although it seems to be a time characterized by "great tribulation." [Revelation 7:14]

Doug

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2011, 02:34:04 AM »

III. Scripture and Premillennialism

Many sections of the Bible can be summoned to advance premillennialism. I include six of these passages here:

1) Revelation 20:1-6 affirms the concept of one thousand years six times, and it also affirms the rule and reign of a king, specifically Christ's rule. To overthrow or abandon premillennialism, Revelation chapter twenty must be attacked.


On the contrary, premillennialism is based upon a literal reading of the thousand years in Revelation 20, a number which is specifically identified as having a non-literal meaning, elsewhere in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 3:8. Without a literal take on the thousand years in Revelation 20, the theory of premillennialism falls to the ground.

Interpreting the thousand years and other symbols in Revelation 20 from other Scriptures is not an attack on Revelation 20; it is ridiculous to assert that it is!


2) First Corinthians 15:23-28 references the coming of Jesus Christ and associates it with His rule and reign. This is a strong premillennial passage in that Jesus Christ is portrayed as the conquering monarch, clearly ruling and reigning. Amillennialism and postmillennialism do not fit this passage.


I don't see anything in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 that would support K. Neill Foster's statement that this is a "a strong premillennial passage." There is no hint of the idea of a thousand year reign, in which the Jews are doted on by Gentiles.   

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The apostle Paul taught that Christ's coming will be for the judgment of the world. He did not say anything to suggest that a thousand year reign occurs between Christ's coming and the judgment.

Doug


Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2011, 06:45:18 AM »

III. Scripture and Premillennialism

...

3) Daniel 7:13-14 describes the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds and His subsequent rule. All people, languages and people will serve Him. It sounds very much like Revelation 20:1-7. Premillennialism fits like a glove.


A table comparing several verses in Daniel 7 with Revelation 20:4-9 was presented in this post.

In Daniel 7, the little horn with "eyes like the eyes of a man" and a "mouth speaking great things" prevails against the saints, which is hardly compatible with the doctrine of a millennium. The horn's "eyes like the eyes of a man" picture a "human point of view," as opposed to a divine one.


4) Isaiah 11:2-10 describes the wolf and the lamb dwelling together and a ruler's ensign which "the Gentiles [shall] seek." The ruler here is from "the root of Jesse" and again this scene from the prophet synchronizes with the New Testament passages on the millennium, Revelation 20 and First Corinthians 15.


Again, in the New Testament, men are represented by animals, in visions, and in prophecies. For example, in the vision Peter saw, described in Acts 10, a sheet descended from heaven, containing various animals, creeping things, and birds. Peter heard a voice telling him to kill and eat, but he refused, saying, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean." He was told: "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." From this experience Peter understood that he was not to call any man "common or unclean." [vs. 28] The point is that to understand the vision he had to connect the animals and creatures with humans. 

Similarly, in 2 Peter 2, Peter compared false teachers who would come into the church, to "natural brute beasts," and he cited a proverb against them: "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

In Isaiah 11:6-8, animals such as the wolf, lamb, leopard, goat, calf, lion, yearling, cow, bear, ox, cobra, and viper are mentioned. Natural enemies are to dwell in harmony. The image probably alludes to conditions in Eden. As in the New Testament where animals represent men, in the Church Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, bond and free become brethren. "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." [vs. 9]

The prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not about lions literally eating straw like an ox, etc. What would be the benefit of that? The real meaning is that human nature is to be changed; those who were warring against one another will be at peace.

Doug

Offline Aleax

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Gender: Male
  • Dear God, I have a problem, it's Me.
    • Is Hell eternal? Or will God's plan fail?
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2011, 02:59:43 PM »
I can not accept the view Jesus will return to Earth to perform the Last Judgement. In my opinion, there is no way Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 can be describing the same event. There are several discrepancies (<-- word?)

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/big_blocker_me_9293.msg116421.html#msg116421

Actually, as an atheist, I used Matthew 25 as a proof Bible contradicts itself. Later on I came to understand the Bible speaks of more than one judgement.
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2011, 05:08:50 PM »
...

5) Psalm 2:6-9 gives the description of a king on the holy hill of Zion. The uttermost parts are included, along with the heathen. He rules with a rod of iron. Again, a king ruling in a millennium-like ambiance is in view.


Here, IMO, Foster has ignored or misunderstood Isaiah's prophecy about mount Zion and Jerusalem, that says the mountain of the Lord's house will be established in "the tops of the mountains" and raised up "above the hills," [Isaiah 2:1-3] which I believe is fulfilled in the New Testament, where Jerusalem and mount Zion are depicted in heaven. [Galatians 6:24; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 21:10ff.] This must have occurred, I think, when Jesus ascended to heaven, Acts 1.

The New Testament says that Jesus rules over all things from heaven, having a "rod of iron." [Ephesians 1:20-22; Revelation 12:5] He said to his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." [Matthew 29:18]


6) Other Scriptures which could be summoned to the premillennialist cause but upon which I will not comment include Isaiah 65:20, 25; Psalm 45:4; Ezekiel 37:27-28; Ezekiel chapters 40-48 (especially 43:19-27, 45:20-21), and Zechariah 14:16-21.

These and yet other Scriptures describe the rule and reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in terms that best fit the premillennial view.

http://www.kneillfoster.com/articles/Premillennialism.html

My comments under #4 in reply 79, on Isaiah 11:2-10, also apply to Isaiah 65:25, as these scriptures are similar.

Psalm 45:4 says, "And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things." I wonder how this Scripture is supposed to support the idea of an earthly millennium?

By citing Ezekiel 37:27-28, Foster seems to "shoot himself in the foot." These verses are applied to the heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21:2-3, in the setting of the new heaven and the new earth, not the alleged millennium.

Ezekiel 37:27-28
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

John cites from the above Scripture in Revelation 21:3, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Ezekiel 43:19-27 describes animal sacrifices, types and shadows that have been abolished, now that the reality of the Gospel has appeared. This also applies to Ezekiel 45:20-21.

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

On Zechariah 14, see the following posts:

    * Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:10
    * Is Jerusalem in Daniel and Zechariah the heavenly city?
    * William Kelly and the mount of Olives
    * All nations in Zechariah 14
    * Zecharaiah and the assault on Jerusalem
    * The 70th week and the mount of Olives

To sum up, Foster's arguments from Scripture, by which he tries to support Premillennialism, seem rather feeble. It seems to be a passing fad, a doctrine of men, and a tempest that has swept away many who are not grounded in the truth.

Doug

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM »
PREMILLENNIALISM

By Daymond Duck


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are three major views about how the Second Coming relates to the Millennium:

1) Premillennialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium (a literal 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth based on Revelation 20:1-7).

2) Postmillenialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be AFTER the Millennium. Those who believe this way say the Millennium started with the first coming of Jesus and is going on today; that during this time Christians will preach the gospel, the world will get better and better, and most of those on earth will accept Jesus; then, AFTER many years of success in the Church, Jesus will come back to reign on earth over a converted world (this group teaches that the Millennium refers to a long period of time not necessarily a literal 1,000 years).

3) Amillennialism which means no Millennium. This group believes that Jesus is reigning spiritually today and there won't be a future literal reign of Jesus.

We believe Premillennialism is the right view for many reasons:

1) Isaiah prophesied the birth of Jesus (it was a literal birth) and that the government will be upon His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6).

2) The Bible prophesies an earthly reign or earthly government of Jesus (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 14:9).

3) The Bible teaches that the believers who are killed during the Tribulation Period will reign on the earth in the future (Revelation 5:10). It teaches that these Tribulation Period saints will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after Satan is seized, bound and chained (Revelation 20:1-4). Since Satan is seized at the Second Coming of Jesus, the 1,000 year reign of the Tribulation Period saints will be AFTER the Second Coming.

4) Since Satan will be bound, chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years at the Second Coming (Revelation 20:2-3), the Millennium won't start until the Second Coming takes place.

5) In Daniel chapter 2, the Rock (Second Coming of Jesus) will destroy the final Gentile world kingdom BEFORE the Rock fills the whole earth (Jesus will return and destroy the world government of the Antichrist before He establishes the Millennial Kingdom).

6) Israel must complete all seventy weeks of her punishment BEFORE she stops rebelling against God and before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established (Daniel 9:24). Since the seventieth week will end with the Second Coming of Jesus, this means the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium.

7) Jesus will send forth His angels to remove the wicked from the earth at His Second Coming (Matthew 13:36-43; 47-51). Since the wicked are removed before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established, the Second Coming will be BEFORE the Millennium.

8) Jesus told Christians to watch for the Second Coming, but there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming if it is after the Church wins most of the world to Christ (Postmillennialism). No matter how long the Millennium is there is no need to watch for the Second Coming if the Church must convert the world first.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd9.html

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2011, 05:38:33 PM »
Quote from: Doug
The prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not about lions literally eating straw like an ox, etc. What would be the benefit of that? The real meaning is that human nature is to be changed; those who were warring against one another will be at peace.

The point is the peaceable kingdom would extend even to the animals.  There will be no more killing.  I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality.
As such, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.




 6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

--Isa 11

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2011, 05:52:10 PM »
I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality

But isn't that exactly how "men" percieved the words of Jesus?  He said he'd raise a temple back up in three days, they took him literally.  He said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, they took that literally . . .he said he would establish a kingdom and they took that literally.

And none of them got it right.  What makes "this" or any other spiritual truth any different?

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2011, 06:18:42 PM »
I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality

But isn't that exactly how "men" percieved the words of Jesus?  He said he'd raise a temple back up in three days, they took him literally.  He said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, they took that literally . . .he said he would establish a kingdom and they took that literally.

And none of them got it right.  What makes "this" or any other spiritual truth any different?
Jesus did raise the temple in three days.  You can take that literally.  They just didn't understand what temple he was talking about.


But this is prophecy.  Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal.  Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?


He will establish a kingdom that will fill the world --at the second coming.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2011, 06:20:15 PM »
Quote from: Doug
The prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not about lions literally eating straw like an ox, etc. What would be the benefit of that? The real meaning is that human nature is to be changed; those who were warring against one another will be at peace.

The point is the peaceable kingdom would extend even to the animals.  There will be no more killing.  I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality.
As such, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.


Umm.. what would happen to rat populations?

What would the raptors eat? Would they munch on straw too?

How about fish? Will lures and worms be any use for fishermen? Are sharks going to cease chasing smaller fishes?

Although it says lions will eat straw like an ox, they don't have teeth that would enable them to chew that sort of food. The ox (I am sure) has teeth that are adapted to chewing vegetable matter, whereas lions do not. Their teeth are adapted to a carnivorous diet. And cattle also have stomachs that are adapted to digesting grass etc. Lions do not.

So, a spiritual meaning and interpretation of Isaiah's prophecy is far superior to a literal one, as it avoids these difficulties, and many others besides.


 6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

--Isa 11

Jesus is called a Lamb, and his followers are called "sheep." Jesus also claimed to be the "shepherd" of the sheep.

A "wolf" is sometimes identified as a false teacher, a predator, one who scatters the "sheep."

John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Here, wolf and sheep are metaphors; in Isaiah's prophecy also, wolf and lamb are metaphors. There will come a time when false teachers and the 'lambs' and sheep who were deceived by them will be at peace.

Doug

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2011, 06:37:59 PM »
I have no doubt that much benefit can be had by reading the Bible spiritually.

But a literal reading has its own spiritual benefits.  We expect a hugh difference between a fallen and a restored world.

What could be more illustrative of that than the predator and the prey bonding in love within the animal kingdom?

Today we are beginning to see examples of that happening here and there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZw-1BfHFKM&feature=related
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:44:36 PM by Molly »

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »

But this is prophecy.  Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal.  Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?


This is contrary to what the prophet Hosea wrote:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

And, it is very curious to see people like Dr. Foster quoting "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" and applying it to the millennium, and at the same time, claiming that Ezekiel 43:19-27 & Ezekiel 45:20-21 mean that temple sacrifices and killing of animals will be reestablished in the temple worship at Jerusalem. Don't you think that these things contradict?

Doug

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2011, 06:41:24 PM »
I have no doubt that much benefit can be had by reading the Bible spiritually.

But a literal reading has its own spiritual benefits.  We expect a hugh difference between a fallen and a restored world.

What could be more illustrative of that than the predator and the prey bonding in love within the animal kingdom?


I think I would prefer a world in which birds and bats ate up lots of mosquitoes.

Doug


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2011, 07:07:59 PM »

But this is prophecy.  Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal.  Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?


This is contrary to what the prophet Hosea wrote:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

And, it is very curious to see people like Dr. Foster quoting "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" and applying it to the millennium, and at the same time, claiming that Ezekiel 43:19-27 & Ezekiel 45:20-21 mean that temple sacrifices and killing of animals will be reestablished in the temple worship at Jerusalem. Don't you think that these things contradict?

Doug


I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them." [Hos 12:10]

Although the prophets may be receiving their information through visions and parables, what they are prophesying about is really--literally-- going to happen.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2011, 07:44:23 PM »

But this is prophecy.  Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal.  Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?


This is contrary to what the prophet Hosea wrote:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

And, it is very curious to see people like Dr. Foster quoting "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" and applying it to the millennium, and at the same time, claiming that Ezekiel 43:19-27 & Ezekiel 45:20-21 mean that temple sacrifices and killing of animals will be reestablished in the temple worship at Jerusalem. Don't you think that these things contradict?

Doug


I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them." [Hos 12:10]

Although the prophets may be receiving their information through visions and parables, what they are prophesying about is really--literally-- going to happen.


Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Doug

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2011, 10:20:02 PM »
PREMILLENNIALISM

By Daymond Duck


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are three major views about how the Second Coming relates to the Millennium:

1) Premillennialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium (a literal 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth based on Revelation 20:1-7).

2) Postmillenialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be AFTER the Millennium. Those who believe this way say the Millennium started with the first coming of Jesus and is going on today; that during this time Christians will preach the gospel, the world will get better and better, and most of those on earth will accept Jesus; then, AFTER many years of success in the Church, Jesus will come back to reign on earth over a converted world (this group teaches that the Millennium refers to a long period of time not necessarily a literal 1,000 years).

3) Amillennialism which means no Millennium. This group believes that Jesus is reigning spiritually today and there won't be a future literal reign of Jesus.

We believe Premillennialism is the right view for many reasons:

1) Isaiah prophesied the birth of Jesus (it was a literal birth) and that the government will be upon His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6).

2) The Bible prophesies an earthly reign or earthly government of Jesus (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 14:9).

3) The Bible teaches that the believers who are killed during the Tribulation Period will reign on the earth in the future (Revelation 5:10). It teaches that these Tribulation Period saints will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after Satan is seized, bound and chained (Revelation 20:1-4). Since Satan is seized at the Second Coming of Jesus, the 1,000 year reign of the Tribulation Period saints will be AFTER the Second Coming.

4) Since Satan will be bound, chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years at the Second Coming (Revelation 20:2-3), the Millennium won't start until the Second Coming takes place.

5) In Daniel chapter 2, the Rock (Second Coming of Jesus) will destroy the final Gentile world kingdom BEFORE the Rock fills the whole earth (Jesus will return and destroy the world government of the Antichrist before He establishes the Millennial Kingdom).

6) Israel must complete all seventy weeks of her punishment BEFORE she stops rebelling against God and before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established (Daniel 9:24). Since the seventieth week will end with the Second Coming of Jesus, this means the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium.

7) Jesus will send forth His angels to remove the wicked from the earth at His Second Coming (Matthew 13:36-43; 47-51). Since the wicked are removed before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established, the Second Coming will be BEFORE the Millennium.

8) Jesus told Christians to watch for the Second Coming, but there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming if it is after the Church wins most of the world to Christ (Postmillennialism). No matter how long the Millennium is there is no need to watch for the Second Coming if the Church must convert the world first.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd9.html


I found this verse which remarkebly parallels the rapture


Joshua 6:5
 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.

I wonder if this is a prophetic  clue that the rapture will take place after the wailing wall collapses.

 :icon_flower:

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2011, 03:42:03 PM »
 :cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2011, 04:01:40 PM »
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My  :2c:

Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.

10x10x10=1000

Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2011, 04:06:26 PM »
 :cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.

Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2011, 04:12:43 PM »
 :cloud9: PS. What his curse involved after the fall, had to do with being lowered into SEASONS = time. Being in His presence = time is no more. Anyone who has been caught up in the Spirit, speaks of it seeming like a few seconds, but in actual time, it may have been hours. Time slows down the manifestation of Spirit, until it's visible. That is the reason creation is visible in the first place. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2011, 04:17:40 PM »
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My  :2c:

Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.

10x10x10=1000

Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.
And if you scale up the Holies of Holies to New Jerusalems size the Temple fits exactly īnside the globe/earth  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2011, 04:44:54 PM »
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My  :2c:

Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.

10x10x10=1000

Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.


Those who believe, Paul said, have been raised up to sit "in heavenly places," along with all the saints. In Revelation, John shows that they are in the throne of Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Jesus promised the saints who overcome, that they will sit with him in his throne. This is a heavenly throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Earth days, earth months, and earth years do not apply to the throne of Jesus, or to spiritual things. God's way of reckoning time is not constrained by the earth's orbit or period of rotation, or the phases of the moon. And so, the thousand years that the saints reign with Christ is not defined by earthly units. IMO, the number should be filtered through 2 Peter 3:8. 

The shape of the heavenly Jerusalem is as a cube, and this seems to link it to the dimensions and design of the holy of holies of the tabernacle in the wilderness.

The dimensions of the city, 12,000 furlongs each side, are to be understood spiritually, rather than literally. When John reported the dimensions of the wall, he said it was 144 cubits. He did not say whether this was its height, or width. Both are need for a literal wall, and the length could be specified too. But only one dimension was supplied. It is clearly a symbolic number, 12 x 12. And John indicated these were "angelic" cubits. Who can say what an "angelic" cubit is? Is it smaller than 18 inches, or larger? If it was the same as a regular cubit, why specify that it was the cubit of an angel?

John's mention of an "angelic" cubit indicates the units and numbers are spiritual; space and time are different for spiritual things. If taken "literally," or in terms of natural units a wall of 144 cubits around a city 12,000 furlongs high seems ridiculously out of proportion; the city would be about 36,666 times higher than its wall!

Just as linear dimensions are meant to be understood symbolically, when considering the holy city, the times that apply to its construction are spiritual and symbolic; it is a city built by God, and without hands. I suggest the thousand years is a number that applies to the components of the city: the individual saints of whom it consists. 

Doug

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8428
  • Gender: Female
Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2011, 04:51:56 PM »
 :cloud9: What if an "angelic cubit" speaks of the stature of the Christ in His messengers/angels, which we are? Twelve such cubits being the stature of the 12 heads of the tribes/12 apostles, whose natures being formed in us fulfill the fullness of Christ. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor