Rapture dream

[lomarah]

Hey Aleax. I said almost the exact same thing to Cardinal once about not being as able to hear directly from God as she does and she replied that we are all able and should be hearing from Him and being led by Him. I believe her. The more I get quiet and seek to hear from Him, the more I do. 

[sheila]

 a different 'take' on the rapture..what it is and where we are in the stream of Christ's kingdom...

    the 1000 year preceded  by armies of heaven warring against kingdom of darkness= the work done for us in delivering us from Babylon into truth

  of Christ's victory...salvation of all mankind...first resurrection. Gog and Magog are the adversary released/time Jesus hands kingdom over to Father[Father finishes training]

  last enemy death. Resurrection of righteous and unrighteous is this/after learning of salvation of all the unrighteous[offspring of viper spirits] fight against

  the finished work of Christ...surrounding the camp[spirit redeemed body] as warring of sin in flesh against the spirit. God's purifying fire comes down

   and changes /consumes/accept on His alter the sacrifice[Christ's]...rising into eternal spirit realm.

     the end of the 1000 year reign is as the grape harvest....a few have a blessing in it[finding grapes in the desert]   camp of  spirit and truth

     the knowledge of God as the waters cover the earth is the early and fall rains

     when everyone is in Heaven/changed.....God then sends all His sons and daughters to their own estate[inheritance]...a NEW Heaven and Earth...

   twelve heavens and earths[Adam?Christ 12 tribes Israel[real Israel of God].]....He makes ONE NEW MAN....NEW HEAVEN NEW EARTH...the creature He always had in mind

        Lord's supper....call all birds to eat flesh of kings, armies,great and small[each man's hand against his brother] carnal slaughtering lays bare corruption in flesh

   and consumes corrupted flesh..leaving only bones....which He then clothes in new flesh/earth,Heaven/mind of Christ.


   I agree totally with Nathan on passing through the fire consuming carnality....in the end of the age/grape harvest fire comes down from heaven and condumes all carnality

   and we rise and are clothed upon on high...and given our inheritance...a new heaven/earth...total resoration of all men.  no more death..endless life

[Cardinal]

@ Aleax......And as always, the best thing to do is ask the LORD to reveal the truth to you. My    Blessings....

I don't have the same kind of "direct" relationship with Him like some other people seem to do. Therefore, I depend on what other people are telling me. Fortunately, I know several trustworthy people with the gift of prophecy, and I have received accurate personal prophecy with advice several times.

However, I have had two major experiences that can be considered direct answers to prayers. The first one when I launched my latest attempt at becoming a Christian. At that time my knowledge of the Bible was even worse than nowadays, and I got worried over this infamous "unpardonable sin". So I asked God whether I had done it. I told Him if a certain person calls me after I've finished the prayer, I take that as a "no, you haven't". Immediately after I'd finished the prayer, this person called me. (He usually calls me about once a week.)

The second major experience was in the summer of 2010, when I was suffering a nervous breakdown because of the ET doctrine. I had compulsive negative religious thoughts about 24/7, except for the times I was asleep or under influence. I was quite well on my way to either losing my sanity, becoming an alcoholic or both. Ultimately I told God it's either that He tells me the truth on this UR/ET thing, or I commit suicide. Shortly after that something/someone (God? Holy Spirit?) impressed upon me that I should seek information about a person called "Dora van Assen". I did exactly what I was told, read her testimony and was greatly relieved. That experience started my road to recovery. And that's also the reason I've gone so much by her theology. I know we should be careful as in to what we take in as the truth, but my situation was roughly analogous to me being a sole survivor of a plane crash. The plane's fallen in middle of the desert. So I start walking and hope to reach civilization before I dehydrate. Just when I'm about to die I find an oasis. In that situation, would you just drink the water or start wondering on whether the water is drinkable or contaminated?

  Aleax, the Lord speaks to us in whatever way He can at the moment, so I have no doubt He led you to what/who would be of help to you. But you are entitled to hear Him for yourself, so let me encourage you to press in, ask Him to give you the hearing ear, and get the Word in you (He won't speak unless you have a "measuring rod" to compare what you hear with) and meditate on it.

No good father would have a child and then never speak to it. Is man more righteous than God? Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given. Blessings.....

[Doug]

In Revelation 20:8, John says those who have part in the first resurrection are blessed, and holy; he said that "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [Revelation 20:6]

A question for many is, does this refer to a future resurrection, or to the present state of believers? Do the saints now reign with Christ?

Jesus promised the disciples that they would sit on 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." [Matthew 19:28]

The apostle Peter wrote that the saints are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10]

Peter referred to the light of the Gospel.

In the first chapter of Revelation, John says of Jesus, "Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." [Revelation 1:5-6]

These scriptures connect reigning as kings and priests with the present era. James identified the church with the tabernacle of David, the royal line. [Acts 15:16]

Why did John say that the saints reign for a thousand years, in Revelation 20:8? Perhaps it is because this period corresponds to the time when Satan is bound with a chain, and confined in a bottomless pit. [Revelation 20:2]

Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven," [Luke 10:18] referring to his own victory over Satan. He is the "strong man" who binds Satan. [Mark 3:27]

Paul said believers have been translated into Christ's kingdom. He connected Christ's kingdom with light, and contrasted it with "the power of darkness." He wrote: "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." [Colossians 1:12-14]

He said the saints are "children of the day"--"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." [1 Thessalonians 5:5]

Jesus spoke of the eye as the "light" of the body, and he said, if our eye is single, the whole body is "filled with light." [Matthew 6:22-24] He used the eye figuratively. "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" The New Testament shows that while the saints are citizens in the kingdom of light, some become seduced, and turn aside. For them, Satan is no longer bound. 
   
In the 20th chapter of Revelation, there are several phrases which also occur in the 7th chapter of Daniel, suggesting that John alluded to Daniel's prophecy. They are compared in the table below.

Daniel 7 Revelation 20 I beheld till the thrones were cast down (vs. 9) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them (vs. 4) and judgment was given to the saints of the most High (vs. 22) and judgment was given to them (vs. 4) the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom (vs. 22) and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (vs. 4) I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them (vs. 21) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth (vs. 7, 8) he shall wear out the saints of the most High (vs. 25) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: (vs. 9) his throne was like the fiery flame ... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him (vs. 9, 10) and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (vs. 9) Daniel's prophecy shows many of the saints are "worn out" by the little horn. The horn "prevails against" them. It is connected with the time when Satan is "loosed out of his prison" in the table. The parallels between Daniel 7 and Revelation 20:4-9 suggest the influence of the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel's vision corresponds to Satan being loosed from the bottomless pit where he was cast after he was bound by Jesus. In Revelation 20:7, the expiry of the thousand years must occur individually; if a Christian turns aside from the light and truth of the Gospel, to darkness, that person becomes deceived. Just as beheading is personal and individual, so the thousand years of the saints' reigning with Christ as kings and priests seems to apply personally and individually. If so, the prophecies of Daniel 7 and Revelation 20:1-9 apply to the present age. Doug

[Molly]

I like that pairing of Dan 7 and Rev 20, Doug.

I just noticed in 20:9, the enemy is compassing the camp of the saints in the breadth of the earth, so this is happening everywhere.

My question, being literal, if this applies individually, what happens when your thousand years is up?

It makes more sense to me that these things,however you interpret them, are happening to everyone at the same time.

If I'm supposed to be ruling and reigning with Christ right now, I'm failing miserably, as he told us, the world will hate you for my sake.

[Cardinal]

  I really like that post Doug, I can see some of it. I too believe it's happening/been happening throughout the ages, more and more manifestation of Him in His body. Revelation/manifestation happens inwardly and then expands (pulls up our tent stakes, enlarging our portion) until He cannot be hid anymore.

Last summer, thru my daughter, I was led to pray for a young man who had just been told by an ER doctor, that his X-ray showed a brain tumor (coincidence? I think not  ).

The Lord had me on a months long Daniel fast at the time. I was instructed by Him to place my hands on the boy's temples. When I did, with a start, I literally felt Him slip His arms in mine, like you put on gloves up to your elbows. HE was praying for that boy thru me, LITERALLY.  I have had 2 experiences like this, and I fully anticipate the day when we will fully be manifested with Him in our midst. To God be the glory, it's all about Him. Blessings.....

[Doug]

The apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 3:8, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Suppose we replace the words "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-7 with the phrase "day with the Lord." Would it make sense? Let's see:

Revelation 20:1-7
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a day with the Lord,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the day with the Lord should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a day with the Lord.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the day with the Lord was finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a day with the Lord.
7 And when the day with the Lord is expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

The number a thousand is used in Scripture to signify the idea of completeness or fullness, as in: "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." [Psalm 50:10]

For some, the thousand years or the day with the Lord might end prematurely. This applies to those who fall away and abandon their faith, and return to the world from which they were delivered and had escaped. John's prophecy suggests they are in danger of being deceived and turning against the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city." Enemies of the Church and of the Gospel are frequently former Christians.

Doug

[Doug]

Steve Moyise pointed out several ways that the book of Revelation depends on the prophecies of Ezekiel; the creatures having four faces, lion, ox, man, eagle, in Rev. 4 occur in Ez. 1; sealing of the saints in Rev. 7 compares to the sealing described in Ez. 9-10; the harlot city in Rev. 17 compares to Ez. 16:23; the lament over the city in Rev. 18 compares with Ez. 26-27; establishment of the New Jerusalem compares with Ez. 37-48. Other things drawn from Ezekiel include the precious stones, and the rainbow about God's throne, the crystal sea, and the expression "full of eyes." [Steve Moyise. Does the author of Revelation misappropriate the scriptures? Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, Vol. 40, No. 1. 3-21.]

The table below, from the above article by Moyise, lists several topics in Ezekiel's prophecies that correspond to things described in the final three chapters of Revelation.

Ezekiel		Revelation
Revival of dry bones (Ez. 37:10)		First resurrection (Rev. 20:5)
Reunited kingdom (Ez. 37:21)		Saints rule for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4)
Gog & Magog battle (Ez. 38:2)		Gog & Magog battle (Rev. 20:8)
Gorging of the birds (Ez. 39:4)		Gorging of the birds (Rev. 19:21)
Taken to high mountain (Ez. 40:2)		Taken to high mountain (Rev. 21:10)
Temple is measured (Ez. 40:5)		City is measured (Rev. 21:15)
Temple full of God's glory (Ez. 43:2)		City full of God's glory (Rev. 21:23)
River of life (Ez. 47:12)		River of life (Rev. 22:2)

Doug

[Doug]

I like that pairing of Dan 7 and Rev 20, Doug.

I just noticed in 20:9, the enemy is compassing the camp of the saints in the breadth of the earth, so this is happening everywhere.

My question, being literal, if this applies individually, what happens when your thousand years is up?

It makes more sense to me that these things,however you interpret them, are happening to everyone at the same time.

What if one interprets the thousand years as a day, based on 2 Peter 3:8?

The expression "in the days of ... " applies to persons, referring to their lifetimes, as in the examples below. John could have meant something like "in the days of ..." when he used the phrase "a thousand years" in his prophecy.

	the days of Herod the king		Matthew 2:1; Luke 1:5
	the days of our fathers		Matthew 11:12
	the days of Noah		Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26; 1 Peter 3:20
	the days of Abiathar the high priest		Mark 2:26
	the days of Elias		Luke 4:25
	the days of the Son of man		Luke 17:22
	the days of Lot		Luke 17:28
	the days of David		Acts 7:45
	in the days of Melchisedec		Hebrews 5:6-7
	the days of the voice of the seventh angel		Revelation 10:7
	the days of their prophecy		Revelation 11:6

The last of these refers to the two witnesses. If John meant "day" in the sense of "in the days of ... " when he used "thousand years" in chapter 20, then that phrase might be applied individually and personally to those saints who are figuratively "beheaded," and the time of their reign with Christ.

When a person believes the gospel, and is baptized, he or she is raised up, to newness of life. Paul said, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." [Romans 6:4] This may be the basis for the metaphor of "beheading."

Paul said believers have been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. [Ephesians 1:3] He said they sit together "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:5-7] What else could this be, but reigning with Christ?

Doug

[Molly]

Paul said believers have been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. [Ephesians 1:3] He said they sit together "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:5-7] What else could this be, but reigning with Christ?

It's a good question.  Do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ?  Over what?



But, my question remains--what happens when the 1000 years or the day is over?  Since it still seems to be bracketed by time.

Also, why would we be given reign now, when we only have an earnest of our redemption?   Wouldn't that wait until we, like Christ, have the Spirit without measure and redeemed bodies?  Remember the parable of the talents.  The Master gives out talents to his servents and goes away to a faraway land.  When he returns, he recompenses them based on how they used the talents.

His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master [Mat 25:23]

[Doug]

Paul said believers have been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. [Ephesians 1:3] He said they sit together "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:5-7] What else could this be, but reigning with Christ?

It's a good question.  Do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ?  Over what?

Even for kings there are but 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, etc.

But, my question remains--what happens when the 1000 years or the day is over?  Since it still seems to be bracketed by time.

If the thousand years of Revelation 20 are understood in a spiritual sense, rather than by the letter, that expression represents the duration of the lives of individual Christians. The thousand years ends prematurely for those who fall away, who abandon their faith, who return to the world from which they had escaped, and cease to walk in the way of Christ. This terminates the thousand years, which represents the duration of their reign with Christ. For these people, the thousand years have ended. 

On the other hand, those who endure to the end are promised a "crown of life." James wrote, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." [James 1:12; see also Revelation 2:10]

John said, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [Revelation 20:6]

The promise to those who endure to the end is that they are not hurt by the "second death," the lake of fire.  [Revelation 20:14]

Also, why would we be given reign now, when we only have an earnest of our redemption?   Wouldn't that wait until we, like Christ, have the Spirit without measure and redeemed bodies?  Remember the parable of the talents.  The Master gives out talents to his servents and goes away to a faraway land.  When he returns, he recompenses them based on how they used the talents.

His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master [Mat 25:23]

I think you answered your own question here. In my view the "thousand years" is a figure for the time which we have been given to reign with Christ in this age; an opportunity to build something durable upon the foundation that has been laid for us. [1 Corinthians 3:10-14]

Doug

[micah7:9]

"Even for kings there are but 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, etc." Doug

In my Bible there are 12 hours in a day>  Joh 11:9  Jesus answered, `Are there not twelve hours in the day? if any one may walk in the day, he doth not stumble, because the light of this world he doth see;

[micah7:9]

I already know that my offering of bewilderment will be not be recognized as worth and explanation, but I am totally at a loss as to what this post and the responses are saying. I maybe looked upon as a dolt and even ignorant or that my imagination is dulled to understanding to all the explanations of the OP. "I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.

I unfortunately read, "23 minutes in Hell," and this dream seems so familar, almost like going the other way. I am not attempting to make light of the dream, yet from what is it espoused? The "rapture?"
In all honesty, many years ago when the Lord drew me into Pentecoste and speaking in tongues(as evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit) I had dreams such as this and listrened to others, and believed.
But there is strong meat, Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Doug]

Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The author of Hebrews contrasts "milk" with "strong meat."

Hebrews 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

The metaphor of "milk" represents basic things about the Gospel, ideas that need no chewing. Infants lack teeth, and so they are unable to chew, or to eat "strong meat," which is another metaphor.

In John's account of the saints who were beheaded reigning with Christ for a thousand years, the simplistic approach is to say it refers to a millennium on the earth. That view might be characterized as handling John's prophecy as if it was "milk," food meant for babes. It involves little interpretation, and difficulties are ignored. It can simply be swallowed, or believed, without chewing, or understanding. In post #37, I pointed out some of the difficulties with the chronology of the Gog Magog revolt inherent in that interpretation.

The idea of reigning with Christ now, in this life, is revealed in Paul's epistles, Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:13. John also brings in the concept of beheading. Jesus spoke of cutting off a hand, and plucking out an eye; John spoke of beheading. 

Matthew 5:29-30
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.

I suggest that the meaning of beheading should be understood spiritually; it refers to the mind being renewed, "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind;" [Romans 12:2] "be renewed in the spirit of your mind." [Ephesians 4:23] It is not that hard to connect beheading with the mind change involved in becoming a Christian. Just as beheading is personal and individual, the binding of Satan, and reigning with Christ, are concepts that are personal, and individual.

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

That just goes to show how many "churchgoers" aren't real Christians and why the Lord Jesus speaks in:
Matthew 25:12;



"...I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

[sheila]

'do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ? Over what?"

    Arise shine,for your light has come,and the glory of the Lord rises upon you. See,darkness covers the earth, and thick darkness is over the peoples

    Nations will come to your light,and kings to the brightness of your dawn"

     Light reigns over darkness..... you do not put a lamp under a basket.....

        [He will establish her]

[Molly]

'do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ? Over what?"

    Arise shine,for your light has come,and the glory of the Lord rises upon you. See,darkness covers the earth, and thick darkness is over the peoples

    Nations will come to your light,and kings to the brightness of your dawn"

     Light reigns over darkness..... you do not put a lamp under a basket.....

        [He will establish her]

To live successfully in this world, one has to have an extremely high tolerance for cognitive dissonance, which makes them, in effect, insane.

"dissonance"

1
a : lack of agreement; especially : inconsistency between the beliefs one holds or between one's actions and one's beliefs — compare cognitive dissonance b : an instance of such inconsistency or disagreement
2
: a mingling of discordant sounds; especially : a clashing or unresolved musical interval or chord


You have to , in short, be willing to sing out of tune along with a huge chorus of voices that are also singing out of tune.   

Should the light shine on you, and you then are able to hear the heavenly voices of the angels singing in tune, you suddenly can hear the dissonance of the world, and are awakened to the truth.   You have developed an ear, so to speak.

But you cannot then change those around you.  ' Listen, can't you hear what truth sounds like?'

 No they don't hear it, and moreover, to them, you are the one who now looks insane.

[micah7:9]

GREAT post Molly! Great post Praise the Lord!

[thinktank]

I already know that my offering of bewilderment will be not be recognized as worth and explanation, but I am totally at a loss as to what this post and the responses are saying. I maybe looked upon as a dolt and even ignorant or that my imagination is dulled to understanding to all the explanations of the OP. "I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.

I unfortunately read, "23 minutes in Hell," and this dream seems so familar, almost like going the other way. I am not attempting to make light of the dream, yet from what is it espoused? The "rapture?"
In all honesty, many years ago when the Lord drew me into Pentecoste and speaking in tongues(as evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit) I had dreams such as this and listrened to others, and believed.
But there is strong meat, Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Ah Micah, bold as always  . If I may say, , what happened? why turn your back on the spirit. Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream, but I guess that's speculative. Not to worry, maybe one day you will dream again and be what God called you to be, as God promised that in the last days old men shall dream visions and young men dreams. I hope God will reveal to you your great potential. God live.

[Doug]

You have to , in short, be willing to sing out of tune along with a huge chorus of voices that are also singing out of tune.   

There is a huge chorus of voices singing to the tune of premillennialism. If you are supporting that view you are part of a very big crowd, which, IMO, is out of tune with the teaching of the apostles and the whole New Testament, and misinterprets the thousand years of Revelation 20.

Jesus spoke of a judgment "in the last day," [John 12:47-48] but where did he refer to a millennium?

Acts 17:31 says, "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Where is there any room for a millennium here?

Paul wrote, "... In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." [Romans 2:16] Where does Paul speak of a millennium?

Paul does teach that God will judge the world: "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?" [Romans 3:5-6]

He also said that the saints will judge the world; but isn't that referring to the judgment? "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" [1 Corinthians 6:2]

Paul looked forward to receiving a reward, "at that day," but he said nothing about reigning on earth for a thousand years. "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [2 Timothy 4:8]

The apostle Peter wrote:

2 Peter 3:3-10
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Where does the millennium idea fit in these verses? I don't see it. Peter speaks of the thousand years as a "day" in connection with the present age, and the "day of the Lord." He does not refer to a future millennium. The "day of the Lord" comes as a thief which suggests it may be upon us already, although most people are unaware of it.

And neither is the millennium taught in Revelation 20, when the thousand years is interpreted as symbolic, representing the lifetime of individual believers, who are figuratively "beheaded."

Doug

[thinktank]

The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.


The millenium may not make sense to you at this time, but deleting verses out of the bible is not a good way of coming to the truth.

Peace.

[jabcat]

The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.


The millenium may not make sense to you at this time, but deleting verses out of the bible is not a good way of coming to the truth.

Peace.

I often can't do it, but I also think it's important to rightly divide what Jesus spoke of regarding the judgment of Israel from "end times eschatology";  i.e., IMO, there's a question of which "last day".  I know it's tempting to get locked into a point of view, but I think it's important for those who may be open to consider how we (self included) often "mix" scriptural specific focus/intent.   

When you guys get this all figured out, let me know.   

[jabcat]

(No, I am not a full preterist  ).

[Molly]

Both could be true, Doug.  We are, after all, born out of due time, premature, one age too early.


II. History and Premillennialism



Historical patterns on any given subject have profound significance. Nowhere is this more true than in Church history. And in the case of premillennialism, the facts of history are of special impact.



The early church was premillennial, as Paul L. King well illustrates elsewhere in this book of essays. Thiessen flatly says that "the early church was premillennial"4 and Fisher (in a comment of interest to me since I have come to this conclusion on my own) blames the Montanistic heresy of the second century with its prophetic eccentricities for the overthrow of Chiliasm in the early Church.5 Unfortunately, in the early Church, millennialism (i.e., Chiliasm) was thought by some to be both sensual and "grossly materialistic."6 After Origen, it is nearly impossible to overestimate Augustine's formidable contribution in the intervening centuries. Through his influence and writings (including The City of God), amillennialism became the de facto theology of the Church. With the Reformation and the historic return of the Church to the Bible, belief in the soon coming of Christ reemerged. Luther, Melancthon, Calvin and Knox may all be cited as fervent believers in the return of Jesus Christ.7 Belief in the imminent return of Jesus Christ unfortunately did not extend to premillennialism among the Reformers. Their view of Scripture, however, made the re-emergence of premillennialism likely, if not inevitable.


Indeed, there was a tremendous surge in premillennial belief in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. And, predictably, the surge was built upon the sturdy view of Scripture embraced earlier by the Reformers. Evangelical leaders crowded the premillennial platform. A.B. Simpson was among them.8 Thiessen says, ". . . there has been a return to the position of the early Church. Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts, Bengel, Lange, Godet, Ellicott, Trench, Alford, the Bonar brothers and most of the outstanding evangelists of the past and present generations have espoused the premillennial position."9 From Thiessen's perspective in the mid-twentieth century, he remained optimistic: "During the last sixty years there has been a renewed emphasis upon this blessed hope."10


Currently, as indicated earlier, premillennialism is under assault and is being repudiated on many sides.11 One possible factor in the decline of premillennialism is the ongoing controversies over pre- and post-tribulational views of the second coming of Jesus Christ. These controversies among dispensational premillennialists, along with present eccentricities in the charismatic/prophecy movements, may have combined to erode belief in premillennialism.


Finally, a new interest in Reformed theology sometimes also carries with it a casual disdain for the tenets of premillennialism. In seeking to be Calvin-like and Luther-like, the new "reformers" have not extended their passion for the full authority of Scripture to eschatology. And the long shadow of Augustine's amillennialism has lingered too. These caveats notwithstanding, the biblical arguments for premillennialism are several and strong.



III. Scripture and Premillennialism



Many sections of the Bible can be summoned to advance premillennialism. I include six of these passages here:


1) Revelation 20:1-6 affirms the concept of one thousand years six times, and it also affirms the rule and reign of a king, specifically Christ's rule. To overthrow or abandon premillennialism, Revelation chapter twenty must be attacked.


2) First Corinthians 15:23-28 references the coming of Jesus Christ and associates it with His rule and reign. This is a strong premillennial passage in that Jesus Christ is portrayed as the conquering monarch, clearly ruling and reigning. Amillennialism and postmillennialism do not fit this passage.


3) Daniel 7:13-14 describes the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds and His subsequent rule. All people, languages and people will serve Him. It sounds very much like Revelation 20:1-7. Premillennialism fits like a glove.


4) Isaiah 11:2-10 describes the wolf and the lamb dwelling together and a ruler's ensign which "the Gentiles [shall] seek." The ruler here is from "the root of Jesse" and again this scene from the prophet synchronizes with the New Testament passages on the millennium, Revelation 20 and First Corinthians 15.


5) Psalm 2:6-9 gives the description of a king on the holy hill of Zion. The uttermost parts are included, along with the heathen. He rules with a rod of iron. Again, a king ruling in a millennium-like ambiance is in view.


6) Other Scriptures which could be summoned to the premillennialist cause but upon which I will not comment include Isaiah 65:20, 25; Psalm 45:4; Ezekiel 37:27-28; Ezekiel chapters 40-48 (especially 43:19-27, 45:20-21), and Zechariah 14:16-21.


These and yet other Scriptures describe the rule and reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in terms that best fit the premillennial view.

http://www.kneillfoster.com/articles/Premillennialism.html

[micah7:9]

I already know that my offering of bewilderment will be not be recognized as worth and explanation, but I am totally at a loss as to what this post and the responses are saying. I maybe looked upon as a dolt and even ignorant or that my imagination is dulled to understanding to all the explanations of the OP. "I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.

I unfortunately read, "23 minutes in Hell," and this dream seems so familar, almost like going the other way. I am not attempting to make light of the dream, yet from what is it espoused? The "rapture?"
In all honesty, many years ago when the Lord drew me into Pentecoste and speaking in tongues(as evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit) I had dreams such as this and listrened to others, and believed.
But there is strong meat, Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Ah Micah, bold as always  . If I may say, , what happened? why turn your back on the spirit. Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream, but I guess that's speculative. Not to worry, maybe one day you will dream again and be what God called you to be, as God promised that in the last days old men shall dream visions and young men dreams. I hope God will reveal to you your great potential. God live.

"Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream,..." TT
For a surety I don't understand, ' if you were here many years ago?'

I believe with my whole heart and being in the words of Joel 2:28 And it comes afterward, I shall pour out My spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your elders shall dream dreams, your chosen ones shall see visions."

I also reason that when I start off on the wrong foot, or begin to build and the first brick or board is not square or plumb, then what ever I do from that point on will not be right. I do not believe in a rapture, I believe that those who are hearing are being caught up now, I cannot understand, """I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.""

As well as, " As I thought these thoughts I began to slow down and felt heavier...." TT

I do understand this,  for many times in my walk "my" thoughts have made me heavy and my upward rise is slowed greatly, even all the way down and I have to pray through my weaknesses, and the Lord must get me started again correctly. When the Lord revealed to me the strength of the resurrection [to rise again or rising again] my walk has become much easier and lighter. I always thought that the resurrection was a one time thing, I know now that it is not, it is a RISING AGAIN.
What a Wonderful Lord, Mat 18:22 Jesus is saying to him, "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven,'"   

This of course is only my opinion