Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 57856 times)

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Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #475 on: January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM »
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.

I whole-heartedly agree!!!  I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.


This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;



Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #476 on: January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PM »
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?

CHB

I think God shows up when people call on him.  But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature?  It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?"  The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more.  But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ."  The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not.  It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of.  This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that.  Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in.  The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all.  When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens.  We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.

So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it.  I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in.  Every GOOD THING comes from above.  The things God DOES send are things that induce life.  There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him?  There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live.  That's a whole other thread.

I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.

You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.

CHB

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #477 on: January 03, 2012, 11:53:17 PM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it. Martin's claim that it was to last for only a few decades, and that it was then replaced by the "mystery," does not inspire one with any confidence. Such a claim needs to be supported by notable miracles. The New Covenant is said to be "everlasting." [Hebrews 13:20]

First off, Dr. Martin did not believe that this world would be completely destroyed.

A Covenant is an agreement between two parties, it has do's and don'ts attached to it. The New Covenant was only between God, Israel and Judah. No where does it say God made a Covenant with Gentiles, old or new. The word "everlasting" means age.

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #478 on: January 04, 2012, 12:00:12 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it.

Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.


 :thumbsup:

This is so wonderful.

But, don't you think it is the same everlasting covenant made with Abraham?

It was always to be based on the grace of God.



No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.  Gen 17:5

Nations means Gentiles.



By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
--Heb 11

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #479 on: January 04, 2012, 12:08:48 AM »
This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
(Rev 1:3) Happy he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep the things written therein; for the time is at hand.



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Be patient. It's a very slow site.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #480 on: January 04, 2012, 12:20:46 AM »
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in".
:thumbsup:

Quote
Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
The get-God-of-the-hook syndrome.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #481 on: January 04, 2012, 12:33:40 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it.

Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.


 :thumbsup:

This is so wonderful.

But, don't you think it is the same everlasting covenant made with Abraham?

It was always to be based on the grace of God.



Yes, I think it is the same. Paul called the promise to Abraham the Gospel. [Galatians 3:8]

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #482 on: January 04, 2012, 12:59:35 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it.

Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.


 :thumbsup:

This is so wonderful.

But, don't you think it is the same everlasting covenant made with Abraham?

It was always to be based on the grace of God.



Yes, I think it is the same. Paul called the promise to Abraham the Gospel. [Galatians 3:8]

Doug


The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

--Gal 3:8

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #483 on: January 04, 2012, 01:22:13 AM »
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.

I whole-heartedly agree!!!  I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.


This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


This is probably not speaking of an asteroid impact, or natural disasters. The hail, fire and blood are all symbolic here; rain and snow represent God's word, in Isaiah 55:10, so hail might represent a strong rebuke. Jesus compared the message of the Gospel to fire.

Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Isaiah said, "all flesh is grass."

Isaiah 40:6-8
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

The righteous are compared to trees in Psalm 1:2. By identifying the various symbols from the Scripture, one can understand what the prophecy is about.


 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.


Babylon is referred to as a "burnt mountain" in Jeremiah 51:25. Its judgment includes fire, vs. 58.

Isaiah 57:20 says: "The wicked are like the troubled sea ..." Revelation 17:15 says: "The waters which thou sawest , where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations and tongues;"

Ships in this prophecy have sometimes been interpreted as churches.


 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;


The message of the Gospel is a life-giving stream; Jesus spoke of the "rivers of living water" that flow from those who believe in him.

But the waters are made bitter and corrupted by flawed interpretations, and relics of paganism, and superstition. The doctrine of infernal torment is an example; there are many others.

Charles D. Alexander wrote, on this Scripture: "The reversion of the life giving Gospel fountains to death-dealing bitter waters, takes place whenever the life giving doctrines of divine grace are corrupted by apostate and carnal religion."

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #484 on: January 04, 2012, 01:36:39 AM »
The everlasting covenant--A Nation of Priests


What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."
--Gal 3:8

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.


Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."


 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,  Gen 26:4

 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith  Rom 3:30

and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."  Ex 19:6

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #485 on: January 04, 2012, 02:21:40 AM »
IMO
Abraham's descendants are the descendents of faith.

 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."  Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Galatians 3:6-9

Jesus is Abraham's seed. We have been begotten anew by an incorruptible seed, unto a fervent love of the brethren. "In Christ" there is only.... One New Man composed of Hebrews and Gentiles.....

 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.(Gal 3:14)

Jn1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:  who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Begotten by.....The word implanted which is able to save our souls. "Christ in you, the hope of glory". Beginning as a seed having within it, "everything pertaing to life and godliness through the true knowldge of God". Making us "partakers of the divine nature", being "transformed by the renewing of our minds"- conformed to the image of Christ, the image of God.

Jesus said, "Of these stones i am able to raise up children to Abraham", and he did, living stones, fitly joined together, mortared with brotherly love, a tabernacle of God "in the Spirit".

He told the Pharisees they were guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from Abel(making them sons of Cain) to Zechariah(making them sons of the devil). He even said they were children of the devil, a murderer(liar and thief) from the beginning. He said, "If you were sons of Abraham you would not be trying to kill me", making clear that the promise was of faith, and tied to the actions that spring from faith.....

Gal.3:16,17 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.  What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Any developments subsequent to the intial promise to Abraham and his "seed" cannot override that initial covenant. All the nations will be blessed through the "seed" of Abraham, that is Christ. This promise extends to everyone, for, "if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in him and to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of his cross." The promise was carried through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in their "age". It was carried by the nation of Israel through theirs. It is being carried by the church(the invisible body of Christ, under his headship by the Spirit, having nothing to do with organizations etc.), who is the Bride, the Body, the One New Man, etc. In the ages to come it will be carried by the sons(men and women and children who graduated as overcomers in this age), until all are reconciled, in heaven, on earth and under the earth- then God will be all in all, all will be dwelling "in the land of promise", children of Abraham.



The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #486 on: January 04, 2012, 04:59:01 AM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it. Martin's claim that it was to last for only a few decades, and that it was then replaced by the "mystery," does not inspire one with any confidence. Such a claim needs to be supported by notable miracles. The New Covenant is said to be "everlasting." [Hebrews 13:20]

First off, Dr. Martin did not believe that this world would be completely destroyed.

A Covenant is an agreement between two parties, it has do's and don'ts attached to it. The New Covenant was only between God, Israel and Judah. No where does it say God made a Covenant with Gentiles, old or new. The word "everlasting" means age.

CHB

Dr. Martin's views on the New Covenant were likely connected to his ideas about the identity of Israel. He believed that the nations mentioned in Bible prophecy correspond to modern nations in the Middle East, including both Jews and Gentiles. However, the New Testament shows that the church inherits the promises made to Abraham. Believers of Gentile background are made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise by the blood of Christ. [Ephesians 2:12-13]

Jesus called the cup of the Lord's supper "my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." [Mark 14:24] I think the Greek words translated "new testament" here mean "new covenant."

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #487 on: January 04, 2012, 06:16:56 AM »
[new] "testament"

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.



It's a contract that goes into effect when someone dies [a will], which, as we see, it did.

The contract was signed with Abraham on behalf of Abraham's seed, which seed is Christ.

This is the contract passed down through Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.

Ephraim is the testamentary inheritor--Ephraim is my firstborn son.  Jer 31:9--also known as, the Gentiles.

It's all signed, sealed, legal, and would stand up in probate court.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM



« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:24:30 AM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #488 on: January 04, 2012, 01:55:06 PM »
[new] "testament"

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.



It's a contract that goes into effect when someone dies [a will], which, as we see, it did.

The contract was signed with Abraham on behalf of Abraham's seed, which seed is Christ.

This is the contract passed down through Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.

Ephraim is the testamentary inheritor--Ephraim is my firstborn son.  Jer 31:9--also known as, the Gentiles.

It's all signed, sealed, legal, and would stand up in probate court.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM


The New Covenant is said to apply to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

But, in the New Testament, Gentile Christians are also included in it. This is evident from Paul's discussion of the Lord's supper in 1 Corinthians 11. The Corinthians were Gentiles.

In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul declared that he wanted to present the Corinthian Christians "as a chaste virgin to Christ." He said in vs. 2-3:

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Paul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The  love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.   

Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit.

Dr. Martin believed that the Jews represent Israel. But Paul said those who did not believe the Gospel were branches broken off from their tree, and cast aside, while the Gentile believers were branches of a wild olive that had been grafted in. 

Romans 11:15-18
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


The conclusion is clear, that the church consisting of believers of both Jewish and Gentile origin is the true Israel.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #489 on: January 04, 2012, 02:29:28 PM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant is said to apply to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

You keep saying this--that the covenant is with both houses--but then you ignore that he goes on only to specify the new covenant with the house of Israel:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8 repeats the same.

The fine print says there that this covenant is only with the house of Israel.  So what is the new covenant with the house of Judah?

We are not told in this passage.

Quote
The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit.

You say the church are Israelites in a spiritual sense but what happened to those people of the house of Israel, that is, Ephraim, who are the inheritors of the will.  If they are a different group, surely they could contest the will.

The Gentiles might be a wild olive tree but they are still an olive tree---before they are grafted onto the cultivated olive tree.

The LORD called your name,
Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit
--Jer 11:16

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #490 on: January 04, 2012, 02:47:36 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Paul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The  love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.   

Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit


This is the story of the book of Ruth.  She is originally a Moabite who marries an Israelite.  When her husband dies, she is set adrift, but remains with her mother-in-law declaring 'your God is my God'--until she is redeemed by Boaz, again the house of Judah, who marries her.  And of course, she becomes the great grandmother of king David.

So yes, it is the same pattern--redeemed by marriage--the two shall become one flesh.

But Boaz is also Ruth's kinsman through her earlier marriage--hence the kinsman redeemer.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 02:50:48 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #491 on: January 04, 2012, 02:59:12 PM »
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant is said to apply to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

You keep saying this--that the covenant is with both houses--but then you ignore that he goes on only to specify the new covenant with the house of Israel:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8 repeats the same.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


The fine print says there that this covenant is only with the house of Israel.  So what is the new covenant with the house of Judah?

We are not told in this passage.


The breach between the northern kingdom and the Davidic kingdom of Judah was only temporary. The Jews were taken into captivity to the same areas where the northern tribes were dwelling, in what is now Iraq. Thus the tribes were reunited to some extent, at least with the remaining Israelites, and this is illustrated in Ezekiel's prophecy of the two sticks becoming one.

The label "Jews" applied to all the tribes, and so did the label "Israel," after the captivity. We see this must be so, in the church, since Jesus is both a Jew, and an Israelite, and we are "of his flesh, and of his bones" and so inherit those labels from Christ. This is why, I think, Jesus said, "for salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] And Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3] Paul said we have "no confidence in the flesh" as he did not want people seeking some Jewish connection in their ancestry, as apparently some did. He probably alluded to this when he wrote to Timothy, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." [1 Timothy 1:4] Having some Jewish or Israelite connection in a literal sense has absolutely nothing to do with faith in Christ.


Quote
The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit.

You say the church are Israelites in a spiritual sense but what happened to those people of the house of Israel, that is, Ephraim, who are the inheritors of the will.  If they are a different group, surely they could contest the will.


The ones who did not believe in Christ were branches broken off from their tree. That remains true today.


The Gentiles might be a wild olive tree but they are still an olive tree---before they are grafted onto the cultivated olive tree.

The LORD called your name,
Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit
--Jer 11:16

Paul wrote,

Romans 11:19-21
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

To be an Israelite is a matter of belief, not of ethnic background.

Doug

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #492 on: January 04, 2012, 03:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Paul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The  love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.   

Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit


This is the story of the book of Ruth.  She is originally a Moabite who marries an Israelite.  When her husband dies, she is set adrift, but remains with her mother-in-law declaring 'your God is my God'--until she is redeemed by Boaz, again the house of Judah, who marries her.  And of course, she becomes the great grandmother of king David.

So yes, it is the same pattern--redeemed by marriage--the two shall become one flesh.

But Boaz is also Ruth's kinsman through her earlier marriage--hence the kinsman redeemer.

When Ruth married Naomi's son, she became an Israelite. She elected to remain an Israelite after the death of her husband. "And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:" [Ruth 1:16]

And similarly, since the church is Christ's "wife," or bride, Gentile believers are married to Christ, and inherit his Jewishness. Also they are of the "house of David," and they are "priests" as Christ is a priest in heaven. Thus, Peter says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10] This is written to Gentiles who became a "holy nation" [the true Israel] by faith in Christ.

Doug
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 03:16:52 PM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #493 on: January 04, 2012, 03:33:57 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Paul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The  love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.   

Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit


This is the story of the book of Ruth.  She is originally a Moabite who marries an Israelite.  When her husband dies, she is set adrift, but remains with her mother-in-law declaring 'your God is my God'--until she is redeemed by Boaz, again the house of Judah, who marries her.  And of course, she becomes the great grandmother of king David.

So yes, it is the same pattern--redeemed by marriage--the two shall become one flesh.

But Boaz is also Ruth's kinsman through her earlier marriage--hence the kinsman redeemer.

When Ruth married Naomi's son, she became an Israelite. She elected to remain an Israelite after the death of her husband. "And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:" [Ruth 1:16]

And similarly, since the church is Christ's "wife," or bride, Gentile believers are married to Christ, and inherit his Jewishness. Also they are of the "house of David," and they are "priests" as Christ is a priest in heaven. Thus, Peter says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10] This is written to Gentiles who became a "holy nation" [the true Israel] by faith in Christ.

Doug

Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.

Christ is our kinsman Redeemer.  How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?

But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.

Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel.  It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself.  We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #494 on: January 04, 2012, 03:40:40 PM »
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #495 on: January 04, 2012, 03:46:23 PM »
 :thumbsup:
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #496 on: January 04, 2012, 03:51:43 PM »

Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.

Christ is our kinsman Redeemer.  How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?

But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.

Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel.  It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself.  We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.


Those who believe in Christ are a "royal priesthood" only by their connection with Christ. A person who is descended, say, from Ephraim, is not of the house of David, or of Levi, so does not inherit royalty, or the right to be a priest. And the same for members of the other tribes. A person of the tribe of Judah does not have any right to be a priest. But in Christ, those things apply to all believers. Therefore, they are a "royal priesthood," not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ. In a similar way, Gentile believers become Israelites, not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ.

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #497 on: January 04, 2012, 03:56:32 PM »
Quote from: Doug
The breach between the northern kingdom and the Davidic kingdom of Judah was only temporary. The Jews were taken into captivity to the same areas where the northern tribes were dwelling, in what is now Iraq. Thus the tribes were reunited to some extent, at least with the remaining Israelites, and this is illustrated in Ezekiel's prophecy of the two sticks becoming one.
well, I disagree with that. Take a look at this:

When the Babylonian  captivity of the House of Judah ended in 538 B.C., there was a return of God's people known today as "the Restoration." Religious writers looking back upon this event 2,500 years later invariably assume that virtually every one of the Israelites, all twelve tribes, were soon reestablished in Canaan. But surprisingly, there are two very credible and inspired witnesses to the events of that period—Ezra and Nehemiah—who sharply disagree with most modern historians.

In fact, these two prophets are the only reliable eyewitnesses whose accounts are existing today concerning the Restoration period of Biblical history. Both agree on an important point: They specifically refer to the returnees as being only of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, corporately known as the House of Judah. There is no mention at all of any of the other missing ten tribes which comprised the kingdom of the House of Israel!

Ezra was looking for colonists to resettle Israel's old homeland, yet not only did he not send an embassy to the missing ten tribes, he strangely did not mention their existence at all. We receive the definite impression that Ezra had no idea where they were himself! In 2 Kings 17:6, we were told that the house of Israel was exiled by Assyria "to Halah, and Habor, and the cities of the Medes." If they were still in the same location in Ezra's day, surely he would have sent emissaries there to encourage them to return to the land of Canaan. Yet Ezra did not send an envoy, nor did he seem to even know where they had gone.

Although only two tribes are ever mentioned throughout the Book of Ezra, the common teaching today is that all twelve tribes of Israel, from both Houses of Israel and Judah, were reunited at the end of the Babylonian captivity. If so, why is there no mention of the rest of these tribes, either in the early portion of the book (see Ezra 1:5 and 4:1, "Judah and Benjamin"), or during events years later (Ezra 10:9, "Judah and Benjamin")? The prophet Ezra knew nothing of any return to old Canaan of the exiled ten tribes of the House of Israel! Neither did his contemporary, the prophet Nehemiah, who spoke only of the existence of the "House of Judah" (Neh. 4:16) and the two tribes it comprised, Judah and Benjamin (Neh. 11:4, 36; 12:34).

A leading Jewish Israeli scholar, Sara Japhet, agrees and says, "the restoration [i.e. return from exile] and the subsequent renewal of Jewish community life involved only three tribes: the lay tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and the tribe of Levi." ("From The Rivers Of Babylon," p.82) Levi was the priestly tribe whose members were divided and spread among all of the other tribes. It therefore did not inherit land itself and the majority of its members would be proportionately found among the missing tribes of the House of Israel.

It is further very significant that out of all of King David's descendants, only one—Hattush—is listed (Ezra 8:2) among the returning exiles. Since the land of Canaan was virtually emptied of Hebrews during the Babylonian exile, apparently all of David's other descendants remained in the diaspora in other lands. One of them, King Zedekiah's daughter, accompanied by the prophet Jeremiah, escaped the defeated and plundered land of Judah (Jer. 43) to go first to Tahpahnes, Egypt, and then (according to legendary history) to the isles of the West.

Another very possible line of descent from King David provides an interesting link with the Norse-Gothic tribes and their early leader Odin. We read in 1 Chronicles 3:17-18 that Davidic descendant and king of Judah, Jehoiakin, had one son, Asir (KJV: Assir), translated in the RSV and NIV as "captive." This Asir was therefore among those exiled from Canaan, and as noted above, neither he nor any of his descendants were included in Ezra's list of those who returned from Babylon. Where did Asir, of the Davidic royal line of kings, and his descendants go? In Norse history, although encased in myth, Asir or Aesir was the name of the chief royal tribe living at Asgard, the early Mideast homeland of the Norse people. The Columbia Encyclopedia under the heading "Germanic religion" states, "In early times there were two groups of gods—the Aesir and the Vanir. However, after a war between the rival pantheons which perhaps reflects a war between two rival tribes, the defeated Vanir were absorbed into the Aesir, and the gods of both were worshipped in a single pantheon...of twelve principal deities...The gods dwelled at Asgard." Apparently, exiled Israelites of the twelve tribes gathered around their Davidic leader, Aesir, before leaving the Mideast for Europe. A later leader of these assembled tribes was Odin, whose name is pure Semitic. The name Odin has been shown by scholars to be a royal title meaning "Lord" (compare the Hebrew "Adonai" and early Greek hero, "Adonis").

This should not be surprising, since Ezra informs us that only four courses or divisions of priests returned from Babylon (Ezra 2:36-39), out of a total of twenty-four courses (1 Chron. 24:7-18). These twenty-four courses of priests were a prophetic foretype of the twenty-four elders of the Book of Revelation (4:4; 19:4), showing us that they were not eliminated in God's Divine purposes. Simple math will show that well over 80% of the priesthood of Israel therefore did not return from its exile in foreign lands. This percentage would also be reflected in the very low number of Israelites as a whole who returned to Canaan.

Respected scholar, Dr. W.F. Lofthouse, in "Israel After The Exile," (Clarendon Bible, Old Testament, Vol. 4), has this to say: "[Cyrus' decree] did not mean that any large number of Jews returned from Babylon to Palestine...it is doubtful if many of the Jews (save the poorer members of the community) would have been anxious to leave... Moreover, if there had been a considerable company of returning exiles, our sources for subsequent events in Palestine must have referred to its presence there. As a matter of fact, such references do not exist." (p.24) In other words, relatively very few Israelites ever returned to the land of Canaan after being exiled.

The only place that you will read that all of the Israelite tribes reunited in Babylon, and returned together as one body to Canaan, is in the religious theories of some opponents of the Two-House belief! Neither reputable scholars, nor the Bible, nor history support the idea of a mass return from Babylon of both Houses of Israel. Instead, the prophet Ezra stated, "...grace hath been showed from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape..." (9:8) Again he emphasized, "We are left this day as a remnant." (9:15, NIV) There is no question that Ezra, an eye-witness, documented that the majority of Israel remained in exile in other lands!

Some of our critics claim that these exiled Israelites all intermarried with the pagan nations of Assyria and Babylon and passed out of existence as a separate people. To this, Dr. Lofthouse replies, "Were they absorbed into the new civilization? If they had been, no one would have been surprised. But they were not." (ibid. p.5)

Other critics assert that although few Israelites may have returned immediately, a mass exodus took place sometime later. This too, ignores the facts of history. An interesting statement appears in Ezra's last chapter which bears on this. It reads: "And they made proclamation throughout Judah and Jerusalem unto all the children of the captivity, that they should gather themselves together unto Jerusalem; And that whosoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the princes and the elders, all his substance should be forfeited, and himself separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away." (Ezra 10:7-8)

Ezra stated that exiles who did not return to Jerusalem at that time "forfeited" all of their property. The Hebrew word used here, yaharam, means confiscated property. Any Israelite who returned months or years later would have found his home and vineyard legally turned over to others. He was disinherited! At that point, there was no incentive to return. Those not present at the appointed time were "separated" or "expelled" (NIV) from citizenship among the exiles. (Ezra 10:8) Those remaining in exile were truly "lost tribes," for they had lost their land, property, and citizenship in their former homeland of Canaan.

The book of Nehemiah tells us that the whole community of exiles who returned to Canaan was only 42,360. (Neh. 8:66) What happened to the rest of God's people, the Israelite majority who continued in exile? They did not remain in Assyria and Babylon. As Dr. Lofthouse expressed it, "[the prophet] Jeremiah...seems to imply a certain restlessness among the exiles." (ibid. p.5) The fulfillment of the numerous prophecies of Scripture required that these restless wanderers be later found in the coastlands and isles to the west, where they became a great multitude and company of nations. (Gen. 15:5; 35:11; Isa. 42:4) -J.S. Brooks

http://www.israelite.info/

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #498 on: January 04, 2012, 04:01:38 PM »

Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.

Christ is our kinsman Redeemer.  How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?

But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.

Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel.  It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself.  We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.


Those who believe in Christ are a "royal priesthood" only by their connection with Christ. A person who is descended, say, from Ephraim, is not of the house of David, or of Levi, so does not inherit royalty, or the right to be a priest. And the same for members of the other tribes. A person of the tribe of Judah does not have any right to be a priest. But in Christ, those things apply to all believers. Therefore, they are a "royal priesthood," not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ. In a similar way, Gentile believers become Israelites, not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ.

Doug
Ephraim is the inheritor of the will.

Think like a lawyer!

Do you think God makes contracts and then changes his mind?

What is the inheritance?  Well, among other things, it is CHRIST.

How can I prove I am a rightful inheritor under Ephraim?

I go into probate court and slap down my faith in front of the judge.

Case closed.  My faith justifies me.

That's what the whole Protestant Reformation was about.

Martin Luther read Paul and the whole world changed for him.


Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,  Rom 5:1

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 04:10:13 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #499 on: January 04, 2012, 05:17:20 PM »

Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.

Christ is our kinsman Redeemer.  How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?

But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.

Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel.  It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself.  We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.


Those who believe in Christ are a "royal priesthood" only by their connection with Christ. A person who is descended, say, from Ephraim, is not of the house of David, or of Levi, so does not inherit royalty, or the right to be a priest. And the same for members of the other tribes. A person of the tribe of Judah does not have any right to be a priest. But in Christ, those things apply to all believers. Therefore, they are a "royal priesthood," not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ. In a similar way, Gentile believers become Israelites, not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ.

Doug
Ephraim is the inheritor of the will.

Think like a lawyer!

Do you think God makes contracts and then changes his mind?

What is the inheritance?  Well, among other things, it is CHRIST.

How can I prove I am a rightful inheritor under Ephraim?


Even if one could prove beyond a doubt that he or she descended directly from Ephraim, that would not entitle him or her to inherit the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or the other promises given to Israel, according to John the Baptist.

Luke 3:7-9
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


I go into probate court and slap down my faith in front of the judge.

Case closed.  My faith justifies me.

That's what the whole Protestant Reformation was about.

Martin Luther read Paul and the whole world changed for him.


Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,  Rom 5:1

Paul was not referring to faith in one's ancestry. He meant faith in Christ. It is from their status in Christ that believers become a "royal priesthood," not from their ethnic background, which for most people is rather dubious.

Doug