Rapture dream

[Molly]

Let's first speak of natural Gentiles, and natural Israelites. Either these people were Gentiles, or not; in which case they might be the people of the ten tribes, that is, Israelites, but, the text calls them Gentiles. If the Scripture is right, then they were not members of the lost ten tribes

Abraham was a Gentile.  Everyone started out as a Gentile.  God set the Israelites apart for his own purposes, as a called out people, as a holy nation.  He called them Hebrews, the crossed over ones.  He called them Israelites, he will rule as God, the imagers.

If they were natural Israelites, then they would not fulfill the prophecy that James referred to. This also applies to Paul's argument, in Romans 11; if the people Paul preached to were natural Israelites rather than Gentiles his argument is invalid. In that case, how could he be the "apostle of the Gentiles"?

I don't really understand what you're saying, if you could explain that more.  But, don't call all twelve tribes by the name of the tribe of Judah, i.e. Jews.  Each tribe has its own name.

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." [Ephesians 2:11-13]

Paul is saying you were called the Uncircumcision.  To me, that's the same as being called Not My People.  This is the fulfillment of the prophecy where God says of the northern tribes, call them Loammi, which means not a people.  But, then he continues with the prophecy--

1The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
2The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

3So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

5And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.

--Hos 1

Jezreel=God will sow

1Hear ye this, O priests; and hearken, ye house of Israel; and give ye ear, O house of the king; for judgment is toward you, because ye have been a snare on Mizpah, and a net spread upon Tabor.

2And the revolters are profound to make slaughter, though I have been a rebuker of them all.

3I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.

4They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the LORD.

5And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them. [Hos 5]



God spits them out and sows them, as he says, into the earth [Hos 2].

We see Loammi [meaning not my people] is fulfilled.  The house of Israel disappears from history...

9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.



But when is this prophecy fulfilled:

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

--Hos 1



I don't understand why you would suddenly call random Gentiles the twelve tribes.  It doesn't make any sense if it's random.  It's not random.


Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.  [Deut 28:64]

I think that it's through the scattering of the northern tribes that all the nations of the earth shall be blessed--the promise made to Abraham's seed.

[Doug]

If they were natural Israelites, then they would not fulfill the prophecy that James referred to. This also applies to Paul's argument, in Romans 11; if the people Paul preached to were natural Israelites rather than Gentiles his argument is invalid. In that case, how could he be the "apostle of the Gentiles"?

I don't really understand what you're saying, if you could explain that more.  But, don't call all twelve tribes by the name of the tribe of Judah, i.e. Jews.  Each tribe has its own name.

This was a comment related to your claim that Acts 15:12-18 supports the idea that the Gentile converts in the early church were in fact the lost ten tribes of Israel, which to me, seems to have no foundation, and in fact it is contradicted by the statements referring to the people of those churches as Gentiles.

In Romans 11:7, Paul says, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

I suggest that this statement of Paul discredits you idea that the Gentile churches were in fact members of the ten tribes, if that is indeed what you are saying, and it seems to be. Because Paul tells us "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for," and contrasts their failure with the "election," referring to the believers in Gentile churches who had received the Gospel. Paul does not say "Jews" here, but "Israel." The rest, who did not believe, he said, were "blinded."

BTW is this idea you are promoting an interpretation you have developed yourself, from your own study, or have you obtained it from others? Do you have any references to books or articles  that support the idea?

Doug

[Molly]

BTW is this idea you are promoting an interpretation you have developed yourself, from your own study, or have you obtained it from others? Do you have any references to books or articles that support the idea?

I'm not promoting the idea.  Just talking about it.  It is a conclusion I came to a while ago, and it still makes a lot of sense to me.  Otherwise, you have God breaking his promises to his people, and maybe you could take some time to show me how that would not be so.

It is also something I feel to be true in my bones, if that makes any sense.  I have also thought, well, what tribe would I be from if it were true?  And, I've looked at family names [first names].  They come from the tribes of Judah and Manasseh. So I am kind of serious about it, for myself.

Yes, there have been others that thought some form of this to be true--mostly in the 19th century.  It seems to have fallen out of favor in the 20th century.  Although there is a man in Israel now who actually does promote the idea with books and videos.  I was looking at his videos last night.  I haven't read his books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFvQNzRsf6g&feature=related


Now, as for Paul, he plays games with the word 'Israel.'  He says things like not all Israel is Israel.
In your script, he's calling the Jehudites 'Israel,' when he knows full well they are only two tribes, Benjamin and Judah, and called the house of Judah.

But, he does make this mysterious statement at the end of Romans...

26And so all Israel shall be saved: Rom 11

Well, how does he come to that conclusion?  Do we really think Paul has somehow forgotten that only two tribes [plus some Levites] are left in the land and the rest are lost?  It is the northern ten tribes who were last known as Israel, not the house of Judah.  So saving the house of Judah, which is what he talking about, is not going to save all Israel.  Or is it?  Because the rest--the multitude of nations, the fulness of the Gentiles--will have already been saved?

Paul is an Old Testament scholar.  He knows to whom God made the covenant.

[jabcat]

Molly, you and Doug are talking about things of which I know very little.  Never studied it, but I do find it interesting.  I've kind of come to the conclusion that God knows who Israel and the Jews are, whether scattered or "lost" - He knows who to save when and in what order.   

There's a significant piece of scripture though that I think about, not just in this discussion, but in others - especially when I think about Jesus' earthly ministry, His purpose, His primary audience of earthly ministry.  I wonder how it fits in this discussion, might it shed any light, contribute to any "changes in direction"...

I't s when He said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  What I'm really referring to though, is the prior context to that statement;  a Gentile, a Samaritan [edit] Canaanite woman had come to Him and ask of Him a favor.  He basically ignored her, until she continued to "bug" Him, when He finally responded to her request.  IF I'm reading that correctly, she did not appear to be in His primary audience/target of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel".  Or maybe there's another explanation.  I do wonder how and where that fits..

[Molly]

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

What does he mean by that?  It's a good question.  A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.'  Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah?  And since when is 'Jews' synonymous  with 'the house of Israel'?  Israel was 12 tribes, not one.  The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8

Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.'  But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.

  My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.

If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile.  Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?

[jabcat]

I was just looking at some info on the Gentile "church" being the lost sheep.  But IMO, it seems something doesn't fit.  Again, look at the context;

A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely."
But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. "Tell her to go away," they said. "She is bothering us with all her begging."
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, "Lord, help me!"
Jesus responded, "It isn't right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs."

So IMO, here's another option (though I know little of OT history of the tribes, etc. - mostly a NT guy  );  Jesus earthly ministry was to the nation of Israel/the Jews (those of the Jewish religion?) - thus the "lost sheep" - and it wasn't until AFTER the cross that the Gospel went to the Gentiles.    It appears He said above, the nation of Israel (those of the Jewish religion, temple worship, etc.) were "the children", while the Gentiles (me) were the "dogs".   

[jabcat]

So I realize there is much mixing of races, people scattered all over, etc.  Guess that was certainly less so at the time - but could it be there was strong consideration then to those that practiced the Jewish religion?  Which would also be a demarcation of those who were veiled/couldn't see Him?  Or maybe nationality was the primary thing somehow, I'm just not sure.  Again, with all the mixing and scattering, I've sort of just looked at it more as an outline - the Jews (whoever they are - He knows) rejected Him and are blinded;  while the Gentiles (He knows who they/we are) have had the gospel brought to us.  Then there will be a fulfillment of that, and the Jews (whoever they are) will be "turned to" and will be brought in as well.    The outline, without really being able to determine many of the details...seems those practicing the Jewish religion though could be a "wild card" in this, you know, still waiting for a Messiah per their religious indoctrination, etc.

[jabcat]

P.S.  that translation I quoted that says "the people of Israel" was sort of "random", it was the one in biblegateway below the NIV which I try not to use so much.

That's an interesting translation/interpretation though...I'm going to look at others...

[Molly]

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

--Rom 1:16


Yes, salvation is offered to the 'Jews' first, and most of his ministry before the cross is to the tribes of Israel that are still extant

But, does that mean he was sent only to the 'Jews,' and that they are the lost sheep of the house of israel?

They aren't lost physically.  They are still there and going to Temple.

Are they lost spiritually?  They are still there and going to Temple.

How are they lost?

Furthermore, Paul tells us they have been purposely blinded so that the Gentiles can come in.

So gong to them is merely a formality.





Here's another interesting thing.  He picks the most educated Torah scholar in the country to send as Apostle to the Gentiles.   What's with that?

[jabcat]

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

--Rom 1:16


Yes, salvation is offered to the 'Jews' first, and most of his ministry before the cross is to the tribes of Israel that are still extant

But, does that mean he was sent only to the 'Jews,' and that they are the lost sheep of the house of israel?

They aren't lost physically.  They are still there and going to Temple.

i'll think out loud...maybe going to Temple they were still lost spiritually?  doing the works of the Law never saved anyone... hmmm

Furthermore, Paul tells us they have been purposely blinded so that the Gentiles can come in.

So gong to them is merely a formality.

that's one thing that's puzzled me...they are said to have rejected Him, yet it's apparent they were blinded so they were not allowed to see.. maybe formality's a good word...like it just had to be done as a piece of the puzzle [of The Plan] that needed to be inserted somehow

He picks the most educated Torah scholar in the country to send as Apostle to the Gentiles.   What's with that?

LOL

the thought that comes to my mind is, to show all the learning and wisdom of men is worth nothing?  Paul said he came not with fancy speech, etc., but with the demonstration of the power of God.  He was a "big man", put to his knees, blinded, and having to be led around by the hand...then lifted by the power of God.  The first shall be last...  again the thought, all the knowing of the Law, keeping it, being able to teach it, etc., was not a spiritual cure.    "Without faith it is impossible to please God".   

we're saved by grace through faith, and THAT not of ourselves.  it is the gift of God.

[Molly]

I actually think it is because Paul is the only one who would understand what God was doing based on his knowledge of the Old Testament.

Peter was --what? You want me to do what?  Eat with those people?

But, Paul can put it all in context.  He is constantly quoting the Old Testament and putting it in context for the Gentiles.

If Jesus is coming only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, we know from the Old Testament that there are really lost Israelites because God scattered them to the four winds--but before he did, he made them a promise.


33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

--Jer 31


woah.  Doesn't that sound like what Jesus did on the cross?  Doesn't that sound like Paul's description of the circumcised Gentile?


Either the church is those people described in Jer 31 or the church has replaced them and they are lost forever.

[Doug]

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

What does he mean by that?  It's a good question.  A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.'  Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah?  And since when is 'Jews' synonymous  with 'the house of Israel'?  Israel was 12 tribes, not one.  The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8

Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.'  But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.

  My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.

If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile.  Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?

Why not? And have these people you refer to really followed his voice?

In Ezek. 34, Christ is described searching for his sheep, who are "meat to all the beasts of the field;" and they "wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill;" and he says, "my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth." Their shepherds feed upon them.

The "lost sheep" metaphor is similar to the metaphor Jesus used, when he said it is the "sick" who need a physician. He said that the sinners are being called to repentance, not the righteous.

Matthew 9:8-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

[Molly]

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

What does he mean by that?  It's a good question.  A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.'  Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah?  And since when is 'Jews' synonymous  with 'the house of Israel'?  Israel was 12 tribes, not one.  The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8

Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.'  But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.

  My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.

If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile.  Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?

Why not? And have these people you refer to really followed his voice?

In Ezek. 34, Christ is described searching for his sheep, who are "meat to all the beasts of the field;" and they "wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill;" and he says, "my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth." Their shepherds feed upon them.

The "lost sheep" metaphor is similar to the metaphor Jesus used, when he said it is the "sick" who need a physician. He said that the sinners are being called to repentance, not the righteous.

Matthew 9:8-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

Two sticks and they shall be joined one to another....and they shall become one in mine hand.

Solve that puzzle for me first.

[jabcat]

back to this particular passage and my original question;  any thoughts on how this fits?  that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?  I know there's a lot to it, but in this particular passage, it appears to me He's calling the gentiles the dogs and "someone else" the house of israel...  also, all this is obviously pre-cross.   you said one time Molly, "the cross changed everything"!          not sure if that applies to this piece specifically

alright, i don't have all the historical perspective, this is the main piece of it i wonder about.  seems important, an indicator - a clue.   i'll let you guys continue.   

I't s when He said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  What I'm really referring to though, is the prior context to that statement;  a Gentile, a Canaanite woman had come to Him and ask of Him a favor.  He basically ignored her, until she continued to "bug" Him, when He finally responded to her request.  IF I'm reading that correctly, she did not appear to be in His primary audience/target of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel".  I do wonder how and where that fits..

I was just looking at some info on the Gentile "church" being the lost sheep.  But IMO, it seems something doesn't fit.  Again, look at the context;

A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely."
But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. "Tell her to go away," they said. "She is bothering us with all her begging."
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, "Lord, help me!"
Jesus responded, "It isn't right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs."

[Doug]

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

What does he mean by that?  It's a good question.  A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.'  Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah?  And since when is 'Jews' synonymous  with 'the house of Israel'?  Israel was 12 tribes, not one.  The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8

Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.'  But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.

  My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.

If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile.  Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?

Why not? And have these people you refer to really followed his voice?

In Ezek. 34, Christ is described searching for his sheep, who are "meat to all the beasts of the field;" and they "wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill;" and he says, "my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth." Their shepherds feed upon them.

The "lost sheep" metaphor is similar to the metaphor Jesus used, when he said it is the "sick" who need a physician. He said that the sinners are being called to repentance, not the righteous.

Matthew 9:8-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

Two sticks and they shall be joined one to another....and they shall become one in mine hand.

Solve that puzzle for me first.

Ezekiel 37
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

This seems to say that the ten tribes of Israel which had been taken into captivity long before Ezekiel's time would be united with the tribe of Judah, which is very likely what actually happened. There was some contact between the Israelite tribes and the kingdom of Judah after the Assyrian captivity, as indicated in 2 Chronicles 35:17; when Israel kept the passover in the reign of Josiah. Obviously the ten tribes were not lost at that point in their history. Many of Ezekiel's prophecies make reference to the Israelites.

After the Babylonian captivity, the names Israel and Judah (or Jew) applied to the same people, as suggested by Ezekiel's prophecy where the two sticks become one. Some descendants of the ten tribes who had been living in what is now Iraq returned with the Jews and rebuilt the temple.

AFAIK, the Scripture does not actually say that the ten tribes were "lost." That is a fairly modern idea.

The New Testament refers to Zabulon and Nephthalim, two of the ten tribes.

Matthew 4:12-16
Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

There is also a reference to the "country of the Gadarenes" which may allude to Gad, another tribe.

Luke 8:26
And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.

Ezekiel 37
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

These things are fulfilled in the church, and in Christ, in whom, Paul said, all the promises of God "are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]

The "mountains of Israel" are symbolic of the promises and revelations of God, as Jacob indicated when he blessed Joseph, Genesis 49:26, and said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

Mountains are high, or lofty, and durable, as are the blessings and promises that Jacob inherited. They were spiritual, and eternal.

The king referred to by Ezekiel is Christ, who has inherited the throne of David.

Ezekiel 37
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

The "everlasting covenant" is the New Covenant that Christ confirms with his saints in the present age.

See this post for more.

Doug

[Molly]

This seems to say that the ten tribes of Israel which had been taken into captivity long before Ezekiel's time would be united with the tribe of Judah, which is very likely what actually happened.

I don't see the historical or the Biblical evidence that this had already happened.  The twelve tribes of Israel were a lot of people 3000 years ago, over a million people, so that by the time of Jesus a few of them are just mentioned here and there?  Just because there are places still named for them doesn't mean they are there; they never returned, and God said they would never return until he writes the law on their hearts and forgives their sins--that means their return to the fold would happen after Jesus and the Cross.

After the Babylonian captivity, the names Israel and Judah (or Jew) applied to the same people, as suggested by Ezekiel's prophecy where the two sticks become one. Some descendants of the ten tribes who had been living in what is now Iraq returned with the Jews and rebuilt the temple.

.

This is a bone of contention since the name Israel was given to Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh by Jacob.

16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.  Gen 48

This is why the northern ten tribes was called the house of Israel, because Ephraim was the ruling tribe.

Likewise, the southern two tribes was called the house of Judah, because Judah was the ruling tribe and they are called 'Jews' to this day.

The name Israel goes with the tribe of Joseph, through Ephraim and Manasseh--where are they today?

These things are fulfilled in the church, and in Christ, in whom, Paul said, all the promises of God "are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]

I agree, for which reason we should call the church, Israel.   But the Jews are not yet brought in.  And,  we still speak of Gentile and Jew, as though there are still two separate sticks, not yet brought together.  And, to say that Gentile is one of the sticks doesn't even make sense, because the two sticks belonged to the northern and the southern kingdoms, Israel and Judah.   Neither one were Gentiles.

Thus, I see this as an end time prophecy.  The two sticks will be held together in one hand when Christ returns.

I"m beginning to think our true identity won't be revealed until then, either.

[Molly]

16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.  Gen 48

You see the tribe of Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh also get the name of Abraham handed down to them--

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.  Gal 3:29


And, they get the name of Isaac handed down to them--

nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." Rom 9:7


Of course Paul knew what he was saying when he made those statements.  Joseph is Israel and Joseph, the double portioned one,  gets the whole shebang. 


Who is this describing if not the Christian "Gentiles"?   And, what happens to Joseph?  He gets sold into slavery by his brothers where he languishes in obscurity--LOST--for the better part of his life until he emerges as the ruler of a wealthy heathen country,   When his brothers see him again, he looks to them like a GENTILE,  They don't recognize him as their brother.

[Doug]

This seems to say that the ten tribes of Israel which had been taken into captivity long before Ezekiel's time would be united with the tribe of Judah, which is very likely what actually happened.

I don't see the historical or the Biblical evidence that this had already happened.  The twelve tribes of Israel were a lot of people 3000 years ago, over a million people, so that by the time of Jesus a few of them are just mentioned here and there?  Just because there are places still named for them doesn't mean they are there; they never returned, and God said they would never return until he writes the law on their hearts and forgives their sins--that means their return to the fold would happen after Jesus and the Cross.

Ezekiel's prophecies about the return to the land have to be understood and interpreted in the light of the Gospel, not read as if Christ had never come and as if the Spirit was never given to the apostles after he ascended. All Ezekiel's prophecies should be considered together, and one section cannot be isolated from the rest, or else some absurd conclusions are likely to result. His prophecies should also be considered together with other prophecies, such as those in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Zechariah, the Olivet Discourse, Revelation.

The book of Hebrews applies Jeremiah's prophecies about the New Covenant and about God putting His laws into the hearts of His people to the church.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Ezekiel's prophecy is similar; it also refers to God's covenant. "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:" [Ezekiel 37:26]

Ezekiel wrote about salvation, and cleansing from sin, which is what the Gospel is about; "but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." [Ezekiel 37:23-24] Why should this not apply to the church too?

Ezekiel said, "they all shall have one shepherd." Who is the shepherd? David said, "The Lord is my shepherd." Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."  [John 10:11]

Most commentators recognize that David in Ezekiel 37 refers to Christ.

After the Babylonian captivity, the names Israel and Judah (or Jew) applied to the same people, as suggested by Ezekiel's prophecy where the two sticks become one. Some descendants of the ten tribes who had been living in what is now Iraq returned with the Jews and rebuilt the temple.

.

This is a bone of contention since the name Israel was given to Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh by Jacob.

16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.  Gen 48

Who gave Jacob the name "Israel"?

I suggest, God can apply the name he gave to Jacob to whoever he wants to... and He showed by Ezekiel's prophecy that it applies to all the tribes, and, the label "Jew" applies to all the tribes as well. The label applies to the covenant people, and those who did not return after the exile were no longer the subjects of the record of Scripture. But wearing this label carries with it a responsibility to live according to the covenant. [Revelation 2:9]

Jesus showed what a true Israelite is:

John 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Doug

[Molly]

The book of Hebrews applies Jeremiah's prophecies about the New Covenant and about God putting His laws into the hearts of His people to the church.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16

Yes, I agree.  Hebrews applies Jeremiah's prophecies about the northern kingdom of Israel to the church!  That's why I'm saying the church is the lost tribes--the tribe of Joseph [Ephraim]--Israel.


Joseph's dream--


3Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.

4And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him.

5And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.

6And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

7For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

11And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

--Gen 37


I think this is an end time dream.


The coat of many colors= a multitude of nations?

[WhiteWings]

back to this particular passage and my original question;  any thoughts on how this fits?  that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?

The man that breaks the bread is both mater to the children and the dogs. The dogs mentioned here are not wild dogs but house-dogs.

[WhiteWings]

http://philologos.org/__eb-lat/book333.htm

[WhiteWings]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/syrophoenician.html

[jabcat]

back to this particular passage and my original question;  any thoughts on how this fits?  that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?

The man that breaks the bread is both mater to the children and the dogs. The dogs mentioned here are not wild dogs but house-dogs.

Yes, I've read that.  It's not as big of an "insult"  as it sounds on the surface. 

However...and I'm glad you responded, maybe you have a viewpoint on this particular thing.  How do you think it fits this whole discussion Tony regarding who are Jews and Gentiles and who's the lost sheep of house of Israel, that Jesus (even though not insulting) still  1) initially ignored the Gentile woman 2) then made the comment about taking from the children (Jews/Israel?) and giving to the puppies/pets (Gentiles?) 3) and commenting "I only came for.."      What distinctions between who was who do you believe he was making here?    I personally think this is a significant passage, speaks to who is who, and about Jesus' earthly ministry.   

[jabcat]

I'll look at your links, maybe there's some info there about my question...

[WhiteWings]

I't s when He said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  What I'm really referring to though, is the prior context to that statement;  a Gentile, a Samaritan [edit] Canaanite woman had come to Him and ask of Him a favor.  He basically ignored her, until she continued to "bug" Him, when He finally responded to her request.  IF I'm reading that correctly, she did not appear to be in His primary audience/target of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel".  Or maybe there's another explanation.  I do wonder how and where that fits..

(John 10:16) And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will hear my voice. And there will become one flock, one shepherd.

Here Jesus is refering to 3 types of sheep.
a] Sheep that are part of His flock and with Him. (very few I think)
b] Sheep that one were part of His flock but are now lost. (majority of Israel)
c] All sheep not being a or b