Rapture dream

[Molly]

Yes, it is really cool.

And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  John 1

Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.

Genesis 28:12-13
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

In the dream, the ladder reached up to heaven, and the Lord stood above it. The ladder, then, is not in the place of Christ. Rather, the land where Jacob slept, and the entire promised land, was a place where revelations from God would be given. The Old Testament contains revelations and promises made to Jacob's descendants. On John 1:51, W.D. Davies wrote:

The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.

The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. [U. of California Press 1974] p. 298.

 Doug

 14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

 15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

 16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

 17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

--Gen 28



John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

[Doug]

Yes, it is really cool.

And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  John 1

Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.

Genesis 28:12-13
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

In the dream, the ladder reached up to heaven, and the Lord stood above it. The ladder, then, is not in the place of Christ. Rather, the land where Jacob slept, and the entire promised land, was a place where revelations from God would be given. The Old Testament contains revelations and promises made to Jacob's descendants. On John 1:51, W.D. Davies wrote:

The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.

The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. [U. of California Press 1974] p. 298.

 Doug

 14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

 15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

 16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

 17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

--Gen 28



John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

The ladder in Jacob's dream suggests a connection between heaven and earth, and between God and man. Angels ascending and descending suggests messages going from God to man and vice versa.

The Samaritans had a temple on Mt. Gerizim, near the site of Bethel, in the time of Jesus. When he was at Bethel, or Sychar, Jesus said that neither the holy place there ['this mountain' = Gerizim] nor Jerusalem were significant, but "they that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth."

John 4:21-24
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Doug

[Doug]

On the one hand, the book of Revelation describes Jesus as a lamb, who stands on mount Zion with 144,000 saints who "follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth;" on the other hand, he is portrayed as ruling the nations with a rod of iron, and "treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" as the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

These are contrasting images, but both are valid throughout the present age. Similarly, the saints are portrayed in the prophetic Scriptures both as sheep, and also as kings. In Ezekiel 34:6, God's sheep wander through all the mountains, and are scattered upon all the face of the earth. They are preyed upon by shepherds who rule over them with cruelty. [vs. 4] God says he will seek his sheep, and he will deliver them from those shepherds, [vs. 10] and bring them to the mountains of Israel, where they will feed by the rivers; [vs. 13] David will be their prince, and their shepherd. [vs. 23-24] In John 10:11, Jesus identifies himself as the good shepherd. "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

The image of Christ as the shepherd, and the saints as sheep occurs in Zechariah. This prophecy is cited in Matthew 26:31 and in Mark 14:27.

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

In the introductory verses of Revelation, John describes the saints of the present age as kings and priests unto God. [Revelation 1:6] The four beasts and 24 elders, who represent those who are redeemed by Christ's blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, sing a new song which says God has "made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." [Revelation 5:10]

In Revelation 12:1, the woman in heaven is adorned with a crown of twelve stars, depicting saints who reign with Christ as kings and priests.

In the Old Testament, the kings of Israel and Judah were anointed. The saints are also called anointed. Paul said, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God." [2 Corinthians 1:21] He said believers have been sealed with the spirit of promise. [Ephesians 1:13; Revelation 7:2-4]

Kings of Judah and Israel ruled over the territory of the promised land. In the New Testament, the promised land is a shadow and type of a "better country," a heavenly one, which represents the spiritual things promised to the saints. [Hebrews 11:16]

Kings of Judah and Israel often had to defend their territory against aggression by foreign invaders; similarly, believers are involved in spiritual warfare; the truth of the Gospel, and faith in God's promises, is the spiritual territory they defend. [Ephesians 6:12]

The kings of Judah were descendants of David, and James identified the saints with the tabernacle of David. [Acts 15:16]

The apostle Peter said the saints are a "royal priesthood." [1 Peter 2:9-10]

The locusts in Revelation 9:7 wear "crowns like gold," evidently alluding to their status as believers. See this post for more.

These references connecting the saints to royalty and reigning as kings are all consistent with John's statement in Revelation 20, that those saints who are figuratively "beheaded" reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Several Scriptures indicate beheading is symbolic of submission to God. The individual, discrete millennial reigns of the saints sometimes end prematurely. Zechariah said two thirds of the flock would be "cut off and die" and a third would be left, who would be refined as silver or gold.

In Revelation 12:4, a third of the stars are cast to the earth; they follow the tail of the dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, who is identified in verse 9 as Satan. This corresponds to their thousand year reigns ending, as described in Revelation 20:8-9. They turn aside from the faith, and are deceived, compass the camp of the saints about.

Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The fiery judgment is likely what Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Doug

[Cardinal]

Yes, it is really cool.

And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  John 1

Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.

  Yes.....and/or......the "ladder" is as stairs going up, as the priests ascending the stairs of the temple ministering from outer (man) to inner courts (man's hearts), to the Holy of Holies (to the Lord God).

We do it now, "ascending" into His presence in the Spirit (son of God), receiving and bringing it "down" to the sons of men (son of Man) HE resides in.

It's the circle of life, the power of an endless life, ever in His presence (whether ministering to Him in the Spirit or in vessels of clay), ministereth a High Priest continually unto God.The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. My  Blessings....

[jabcat]

I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently.  I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.).   I believe the sinful (corrupt) nature and flesh are sometimes used interchangeably, but that the primary thing is the nature.  That's what I believe, and then I looked up a few things just now.  I found that sarkos is used 38 times in the NT, and is almost always translated as "flesh".  However, a couple of times it is sort of clarified in definition with "carnal ordinances" and "preferred will".   

In the I Cor. 5:5 passage, where Paul is turning the one over to satan for destruction so his spirit will be saved, again most translations say "flesh".  A couple, the New Living Translation and God's Word translation say "sinful nature destroyed" and "corrupt nature destroyed".  IMO, they got it more accurate.  I'm not saying the rest of them saying "flesh" is wrong, because IMO, that's sort of an accepted description of our sinfulness - but again, I tend to believe it really boils down to a nature or will, not just skin, hair, and muscles, etc.

 

Interesting, thanks Jabcat.

 yw, thx   

[Molly]

Yes, it is really cool.

And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  John 1

Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.

  Yes.....and/or......the "ladder" is as stairs going up, as the priests ascending the stairs of the temple ministering from outer (man) to inner courts (man's hearts), to the Holy of Holies (to the Lord God).

We do it now, "ascending" into His presence in the Spirit (son of God), receiving and bringing it "down" to the sons of men (son of Man) HE resides in.

It's the circle of life, the power of an endless life, ever in His presence (whether ministering to Him in the Spirit or in vessels of clay), ministereth a High Priest continually unto God.The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. My  Blessings....

This author thinks the Temple was vertical  not horizontal.



Two Winding Staircases

The First Temple as drawn by Ezekiel had a winding staircase built within the thick wall which accessed the higher chambers. Josephus confirms that a large winding staircase existed in the First Temple. He claims it was built in its thick wall. The Bible states it was built in the thick southern wall. The Second Temple did not have a winding staircase.

"The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third." MELAKHIM 6:8 JB

"The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third." 1 KINGS 6:8 KJV

There are clearly two winding staircases. In order to use two winding staircases you would need 3 chambers stacked on top of each other and such is the case in this model of Solomon's Temple when you incorporate Ezekiel's measurements. The winding staircase is attached to "the right side of the house" I Kings 6:8 and goes up through the arch in the ceiling.
At the North Gate the blood from the sacrifice was drained into a goblet which was brought up the stairs by the High Priest once a year. In the ritual it took blood to approach the throne room. Once the High Priest passed through the curtain and entered into the Holy Throne Room the blood was then sprinkled on God who was resting in the Ark. He was always pleased. There is no record of Him striking to death any High Priest who brought the blood. The first set of winding stairs for house chamber (60 x 20) start there and connect up into the 40 x 20 chamber (I Kings 6:33)

In a horizontal Temple model the 60 x 20 chamber has a ceiling of 30, but the Holy of Holies has a ceiling of 20. If the Holy Chamber was elevated this would allow one winding staircase to enter it but where would the second winding staircase go? I Kings 6:2 & 8

Historian Josephus states this is how the winding staircases was constructed in Solomon's Temple.

"The king (Solomon) also had a fine contrivance for an ascent to the upper room over the temple, and that was by steps in the thickness of its wall."
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, B-VIII, C-3, V-2.

At the time that Josephus was told about the construction of Solomon's Temple it had been destroyed 500 years prior. So the memory of perhaps the Holy of Holies chamber being ascended by stairs might have been lost in the oral tradition, but if this model is correct it was sealed in the written tradition of the Hebrew Bible.

In the first winding staircase it incorporates one-fifth (1/5) of the thickness of the wall to stabilize the staircase. In the second chamber the winding staircase is constructed of and tied into one-forth (1/4) of the thickness of the wall. Probably because the walls are pylon shaped it uses less of the stone wall in the middle chamber. I Kings 6:31-33

Solomon's Temple is the only building on record which incorporated an arched ceiling which spanned 20 cubits (35′). Keep in mind this Temple predates the Roman Empire by nearly 1,000 years. Additionally there were three gigantic arches in Solomon's Temple for the 3 chambers of the main structure.

Question: Which type of temple could best utilize two winding staircases: A horizontal temple or a vertical Temple? The TWO winding staircases is more evidence that the main tower structure might have had three stories and built vertically.



http://www.solomonstemple.com/the-temple/two-winding-staircases/

[micah7:9]

I have read some, but not all, of the discourse that has built upon this "rapture dream" offered by TT. The only thing that I read was by either WW or Cardinal, that the time and dates must a meaning for something.... for they had been written. That has value and I certainly believe that there is importance; but I, that's just me, see nor hear any ring of bells or awakening of revelation in what has been brought forth. We have but mathematical figures of biblical times and those dealing with the "assumption" of a "rapture."
For me, and of course it is only my opinion, but to gather all this information one has to believe in, and accept the "rapture" teaching.... be it pre, mid, or post. to be a viable thought and teaching.
I for one, yes of course it is but my opinion, that the "rapture" teaching is very much man's idea of how man figures man will get out  being an overcomer. The teaching posseses no power, and for a surety gives The Lord God a very weak stance in His purpose. Will the saints be caught up, snatched....YES but not to be taken out of,  but with the Power and Glory to go through.
It is "silly" to even consider that the Father would remove the very identity of His Greatness from the midist of the last battle. Of course this is but my opinion.

[livingwater1]

http://www.afterlifetv.com/2011/12/07/a-fascinating-near-death-experience-during-a-coma-a-powerful-message-that-could-change-your-life/

one ladies near death experience; and she talks about time, separation vs. NOW and oneness.  worth watching, at least imo.

[livingwater1]

listening to this, brings such peace and life  :)  UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.......All there is

[livingwater1]

to KNOW LOVE casts out ALL FEAR 

[WhiteWings]

For me, and of course it is only my opinion, but to gather all this information one has to believe in, and accept the "rapture" teaching.... be it pre, mid, or post. to be a viable thought and teaching.
I for one, yes of course it is but my opinion, that the "rapture" teaching is very much man's idea of how man figures man will get out  being an overcomer.

Perhaps history can give a hint.
The Protestants split of the Roman church. The RCC reacts with increasing oppression. Not long afterwards every denomination besides the Catholic was of opinion that the RCC was huntig down saints as decribed in Revelation. RCC was the little horn, the beast etc. Then a Catholic monk wrote a book that "proves" the beast will emerge only during the end times. Because back then it wasn't end times it was the absolute proof RCC wasn't the beast.
Maybe the monk was right. Or very wrong. The point is that the centuries before the monk's book such teaching did not exist.

[eaglesway]

I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
 

Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]

What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?

Doug

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to(from the perspective of) an administration suitable to the fullness(pleroma -completion) of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

1Pe 1:20  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared(has been manifested) in these last times for the sake of you

Act 17:26-28  and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,  (27)  that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;  (28)  for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Gal 4:4-5  But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,  (5)  so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Act 1:7-9  He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;  (8)  but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."  (9)  And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Act 3:18-21  "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.  (19)  "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;  (20)  and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,  (21)  whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Act 17:30-31  "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,  (31)  because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Great discussion you guys are having. I think "the time is fulfilled the kingdom of God is at hand" means- since God's plan is an administration, or dispensation of times, that at the time Christ was on the earth(Gal. 4:4,5)- the time was come for the next stage in the revelation of God to the entire kosmos(Romans 8:19-21). First the Hebrews(in Abraham,Moses,David), then the church(Bride, Body, Sons), then the whole creation(All in All, restoration and reconciliation of all)Col 1 Eph 1 Acts 3:21). The time for the kingdom of God (Lordship of Jesus, law of love, gathering of all) was "at hand".....within reach, manifest in this time(because of the Spirit, that was not given till Jesus was glorified). This because the kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy SPirit. (for the promise is to you and your children and to all who are afar off.)

 So, after this age ends, the time will be fulfilled(the time of Israel was fulfilled, then swallowed by the church,the time of the church will be swallowed by the sons, until all creation set is free into the glorious liberty of the sons Ro 8:19-21) and the period of the restoration of all things will begin as the sons of God are "manifested"( we eagerly await, the whole creation groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of god....the "redemption of our bodies") .... a kingdom of priests on earth(bringing heaven to earth, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, city of God"coming down out of heaven adorned").

Just some thoughts as I was reading your posts. No desire to interrupt. Peace, John

[Beloved Servant]

a kingdom of priests on earth

And it is not the Aaronic — yea, the Melchizedek Priesthood.

[Doug]

...

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to(from the perspective of) an administration suitable to the fullness(pleroma -completion) of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

1Pe 1:20  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared(has been manifested) in these last times for the sake of you

Act 17:26-28  and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,  (27)  that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;  (28)  for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Gal 4:4-5  But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,  (5)  so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Act 1:7-9  He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;  (8)  but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."  (9)  And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Act 3:18-21  "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.  (19)  "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;  (20)  and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,  (21)  whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Act 17:30-31  "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,  (31)  because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Another reference that seems to fit in with the ones listed above is 1 John 2:18, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

John wrote his epistle near the end of the first century. When he wrote "the last time," he may have alluded to the last of four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26, during which God would be reconciled to his people and "remember the land." This "seven times" corresponds to the 70th week, which would be what John called "the last time." The 70th week had not ended three and a half years after the crucifixion as some think; it continues to the present time, as it is the week in which Jesus confirms his covenant with many. This covenant is the Gospel. John identified the present age as "the last time." He referred to the prophecy of Daniel 7, and the little horn of the fourth beast described there, who represents the antichrist. John said "even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." The church was falling prey to people who John called "antichrists." Below is a graphic illustrating how the various numbers, 1,335 days, 1,290 days, 1,260 days each represent diminishing parts of the last half-week, the time, times and a half. 



In most futurist prophetic schemes these numbers start with the same event and end with different events. But in the above chart, they begin at different times, and extend to the end of the age as indicated in Daniel 12:7. The outermost period, "this generation," began with the birth of Jesus, and continues forever, as Jesus was raised up, and remains alive. The next line, with the label 1,335 days, is the one that spans all the time from the resurrection to the end of the age. Daniel said, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Daniel 12:12] Who else could this refer to, but Jesus?

On the 1,290 days, Daniel said "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." [Daniel 12:11] The abomination he spoke of is none other than the "many antichrists" that John refers to in 1 John 2:18.

And finally, the line labeled 1,260 days corresponds to the time of the ministry of the two witnesses, [Revelation 11:3] and the period for which the woman flees to the wilderness. [Revelation 12:6] This is smaller than the previous numbers and shows the diminishing nature of the "time, times and a half," the whole age of the church. Time tends to run out, as those of us who are getting older are finding out. The period dates from when the book of Revelation was written, probably near the end of the first century. The two witnesses include the book of Revelation, IMO. 

Great discussion you guys are having. I think "the time is fulfilled the kingdom of God is at hand" means- since God's plan is an administration, or dispensation of times, that at the time Christ was on the earth(Gal. 4:4,5)- the time was come for the next stage in the revelation of God to the entire kosmos(Romans 8:19-21). First the Hebrews(in Abraham,Moses,David), then the church(Bride, Body, Sons), then the whole creation(All in All, restoration and reconciliation of all)Col 1 Eph 1 Acts 3:21). The time for the kingdom of God (Lordship of Jesus, law of love, gathering of all) was "at hand".....within reach, manifest in this time(because of the Spirit, that was not given till Jesus was glorified). This because the kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy SPirit. (for the promise is to you and your children and to all who are afar off.)

 So, after this age ends, the time will be fulfilled(the time of Israel was fulfilled, then swallowed by the church,the time of the church will be swallowed by the sons, until all creation set is free into the glorious liberty of the sons Ro 8:19-21) and the period of the restoration of all things will begin as the sons of God are "manifested"( we eagerly await, the whole creation groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of god....the "redemption of our bodies") .... a kingdom of priests on earth(bringing heaven to earth, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, city of God"coming down out of heaven adorned").

Just some thoughts as I was reading your posts. No desire to interrupt. Peace, John

Doug

[Cardinal]

The outermost period, "this generation," began with the birth of Jesus, and continues forever, as Jesus was raised up, and remains alive.

  Amen, He gave me this very thing. The last generation is one of Spirit, whose Seed we carry. My 

[Doug]

From the erection of the first temple by Solomon, to the destruction of the Herodian temple in 70 AD spans a little more than a thousand years. If the time for which Solomon's temple lay in ruins is excluded, a temple was standing in Jerusalem for a little less than a thousand years. Perhaps John's use of a thousand years in Revelation 20 is connected to the period in history when a literal temple of God, made by hands, stood in Jerusalem.

In the ministry of Jesus, the prophecy of Malachi was fulfilled:

Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jesus is the "messenger of the covenant," and the Gospel accounts relate that he came to the temple and taught there, and cast out the merchants, who had turned it into a "den of thieves." [Matthew 21:13]

In Discrete Millennialism, the thousand years represents the time that individual believers who have been figuratively "beheaded" reign with Christ, and when Satan is bound, and cast into a bottomless pit. They are each living stones in the spiritual temple. Peter said: "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." [1 Peter 2:5] Because the literal temple remained for about a thousand years that seems quite suitable and fitting as a symbol of the time of a believer's reign with Christ.

Paul said every believer is a temple of God, and the church is also called the temple of God. [Ephesians 2:20-21] Paul said, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" [1 Corinthians 3:16]

The thousand years for which a literal temple stood in Jerusalem may be considered a type and shadow of period for which each believer reigns with Christ, when they are kings and priests unto God. [Revelation 1:6]
   
Just as Jesus visited the temple at Jerusalem, and fulfilled Malachi's prophecy, the prophets show that he will also come to his church by his Spirit, and also to every believer. [Ezekiel 43:5; Revelation 15:8]

For the earthly temples the thousand years ended in 70 AD, and about that time is when the abomination of desolation was set up in the spiritual temple, the church. Daniel said, "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days." The daily sacrifices ended when the temple was destroyed. Daniel also says this occurred "in the midst" of the 70th week. "In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." [Daniel 9:27]

Doug

[thinktank]

I have read some, but not all, of the discourse that has built upon this "rapture dream" offered by TT. The only thing that I read was by either WW or Cardinal, that the time and dates must a meaning for something.... for they had been written. That has value and I certainly believe that there is importance; but I, that's just me, see nor hear any ring of bells or awakening of revelation in what has been brought forth. We have but mathematical figures of biblical times and those dealing with the "assumption" of a "rapture."
For me, and of course it is only my opinion, but to gather all this information one has to believe in, and accept the "rapture" teaching.... be it pre, mid, or post. to be a viable thought and teaching.
I for one, yes of course it is but my opinion, that the "rapture" teaching is very much man's idea of how man figures man will get out  being an overcomer. The teaching posseses no power, and for a surety gives The Lord God a very weak stance in His purpose. Will the saints be caught up, snatched....YES but not to be taken out of,  but with the Power and Glory to go through.
It is "silly" to even consider that the Father would remove the very identity of His Greatness from the midist of the last battle. Of course this is but my opinion.

You forgot the part where the raptured saints come back to earth. It is a possibility that we get raptured to meet the lord in the air, then maybe return to Jerusalem to minister to the Israelites, as Paul said they would all be saved.

[Nathan]

But to assume that, one would be "adding to" Scripture.  Those that embrace the literal interpretation of that are pulling it from Thessalonians and there's no mention of returning to earth there . . .there it's just "caught up in the air and there we shall forever be . . ." 

[Molly]

I have a question about Eze 37, the dry bones chapter.  Although I doubt anyone here will like this question, maybe I can get some help with it.

The chapter seems to me to be an end of age description.  It starts out with the dry bones being revived and brought back to life.  It includes the bringing together again of all the scattered tribes of Israel into one nation [two sticks in one hand] [even though ten of the tribes are lost to history].  Then it ends with everyone living happily and in peace and with God in their midst.

So, here's my question.  If this is end of age, and a description of the first resurrection and/or the manifested sons of God, the ending passages confuse me because it talks of 'multiplying' themselves and of their children and their children's children.   I was assuming there would be no more marrying or giving in marriage after the resurrection.  So how could this be?  [I told you that you wouldn't like the question--because I am reading it very literally].


25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

--Eze 37

[Molly]

But to assume that, one would be "adding to" Scripture.  Those that embrace the literal interpretation of that are pulling it from Thessalonians and there's no mention of returning to earth there . . .there it's just "caught up in the air and there we shall forever be . . ."

I think it's ok to piece together pieces of scripture in order to see the whole, generally speaking.

The whole piece is scattered throughout the Bible, which is one thing that makes it a coded book.

[micah7:9]

 As much as I do not accept the "rapture teaching" on this post, those caught up, do return with the Lord.

If one will look at the other 2 times the word "meet"(to meetG1519 G529)  is used  besides 1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
You will see that they went to meet and went with, they did not stay. As much as I do not accept the "rapture teaching" those caught do return with the Lord.
It is reasonably the same with Act 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
They all returned with who they went to meet. Just something to consider.

To meet  to meetG1519 G529

[eaglesway]

But, of course, it doesn t say...."there we shall be"

It says "thus shall we ever be with the Lord" who, if one believes in the second coming as both a literal and spiritual event, (I do) will merge his heavenly throne into the earth, or, a better way to put it, manifest it over the earth, and continue the "ministry of reconciliation".

[Nathan]

I have a question about Eze 37, the dry bones chapter.  Although I doubt anyone here will like this question, maybe I can get some help with it.

The chapter seems to me to be an end of age description.  It starts out with the dry bones being revived and brought back to life.  It includes the bringing together again of all the scattered tribes of Israel into one nation [two sticks in one hand] [even though ten of the tribes are lost to history].  Then it ends with everyone living happily and in peace and with God in their midst.

So, here's my question.  If this is end of age, and a description of the first resurrection and/or the manifested sons of God, the ending passages confuse me because it talks of 'multiplying' themselves and of their children and their children's children.   I was assuming there would be no more marrying or giving in marriage after the resurrection.  So how could this be?  [I told you that you wouldn't like the question--because I am reading it very literally].


25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

--Eze 37

The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration.  But it's all spiritual.  He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit.  He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of.  Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual.  That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly.  So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.

[Doug]

I have a question about Eze 37, the dry bones chapter.  Although I doubt anyone here will like this question, maybe I can get some help with it.

The chapter seems to me to be an end of age description.  It starts out with the dry bones being revived and brought back to life.  It includes the bringing together again of all the scattered tribes of Israel into one nation [two sticks in one hand] [even though ten of the tribes are lost to history].  Then it ends with everyone living happily and in peace and with God in their midst.

So, here's my question.  If this is end of age, and a description of the first resurrection and/or the manifested sons of God, the ending passages confuse me because it talks of 'multiplying' themselves and of their children and their children's children.   I was assuming there would be no more marrying or giving in marriage after the resurrection.  So how could this be?  [I told you that you wouldn't like the question--because I am reading it very literally].

Since Jesus said that "when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage," [Mark 12:25] the dry bones vision can't be about the raising of the dead from their graves at the last trump, but it could be referring to a spiritual revival in the church, which in many prophecies is called Israel. Earlier in this thread, I posted a table showing a correspondence between the structures and subjects of the last few chapters Ezekiel and the last few chapters in Revelation, based on a list in an article by Steve Moyise. [See this post.]

Ezekiel		Revelation
Revival of dry bones (Ez. 37:10)		First resurrection (Rev. 20:5)
Reunited kingdom (Ez. 37:21)		Saints rule for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4)
Gog & Magog battle (Ez. 38:2)		Gog & Magog battle (Rev. 20:8)
Gorging of the birds (Ez. 39:4)		Gorging of the birds (Rev. 19:21)
Taken to high mountain (Ez. 40:2)		Taken to high mountain (Rev. 21:10)
Temple is measured (Ez. 40:5)		City is measured (Rev. 21:15)
Temple full of God's glory (Ez. 43:2)		City full of God's glory (Rev. 21:23)
River of life (Ez. 47:12)		River of life (Rev. 22:2)

The table suggests the vision of the valley of dry bones corresponds to the first resurrection that John outlines in Revelation 20, when the saints who are (figuratively) beheaded reign with Christ. The bones coming together, joint to joint, and sinews and flesh being added, and then skin, finally life being breathed into them, applies to Christ building his Church in the present age. Although believers have become scattered among tens of thousands of sects and denominations, there are links being formed here and there, and barriers that used to separate various groups are falling down.

There is a great contrast here between Ezekiel's description of the fate of the armies of Gog and Magog, which are described as falling on the plain, and on the mountains of Israel, rained on, and afflicted with overflowing floods, pestilence, fire and brimstone, fighting each other, being eaten by beasts and birds, the corpses causing a great stench, and bones being sought out by men of continual employment, and flagged, and then being buried by another party from the people of Israel for 7 months. While Gog's armies are decimated, the bones that come together represent the whole army of Israel, which signifies the Church in the present age.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

--Eze 37

The army corresponds to the saints described in Revelation 19, riding upon white horses, led by Jesus.

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant" -- the land is reinterpreted in Hebrews 11:16, as a "heavenly country;" the land of Canaan represents spiritual things promised to the saints, one of which is to understand prophecy. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]

"David shall be their prince for ever" -- David represents Christ who was born a king and has inherited David's throne, as ruler of the heavenly Jerusalem and the Israel of God.

"they, and their children, and their children's children" -- Paul spoke of Gentile converts as his children.

"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them" -- This is the new covenant.

"when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore" -- God's sanctuary is the church; the New Jerusalem, described in Revelation 21.

Doug

[thinktank]

The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration.  But it's all spiritual.  He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit.  He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of.  Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual.  That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly.  So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Nathan


Yes I believe the scriptures testify to that. That all of Israel shall know me in spiritual truth, circumcised in heart. I think the bones are a picture of their bodies being regenerated. I am not sure at the moment, but I reason God has plans for the Israelites, maybe these plans are different to the gentile church. Not sure who is who, but I think God will have a physical flesh and blood people who minister to him from an earthly realm, in order to bring the rest of humanity under his guidance.

Zechariah 8:23
 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.