Author Topic: Rapture dream  (Read 62738 times)

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Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2011, 05:48:17 PM »
@ cardinal

when the lord told you there'd be no rapture could it be your interpretation of it that is different to mine?

I've been thinking of the same thing. Maybe there will be some kind of "rapture", but not one in Tim LaHaye/Jerry B. Jenkins style.

This is the kind of stuff why a part of me is, has always been (but hopefully won't forever be) a non-believer. Contradicting God-experiences. Person A states "Lord told me that [X]", and person B states "Lord told me that [Y]", while X <> Y. The unbelieving part of me is suggesting that these "God-experiences" cannot be coming from the omnipotent Christian God, for He would have surely found a more tangible way of communicating with His people. However, the believing part of me is suggesting that these seemingly contradictory messages can be conciliated.

For example, I've seen a prophecy like "Don't look forward to a literal 1000 Kingdom with Jesus ruling the world from Jerusalem. The Kingdom of Heaven is simply within you". Then again, there are prophecies predicting a very literal Millennial Kingdom. What if the point God wanted to bring across with the "don't look forward to a literal Millennial Kingdom" prophecy was simply that one doesn't need to wait until the next eon to enjoy Kingdom Life, as (s)he can already have it spiritually in this current eon?

The rapture "theory" uses the passage out of 1 Thessalonians 4
9 Now about your love for one another (The context isn't about the end of the world, it's about love for one another) we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. 10 And in fact, you do love all of God's family throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers and sisters, to do so more and more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
Believers Who Have Died
 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep


There's one major clash with the literal aspects of this in that "if" this is to be taken literally, then who's going to know what the order is of who goes up when if this is all to happen in a twinkling of an eye in the first place?

But again, this isn't a book of knowledge, it's a book of spiritual signs.  When Jesus spoke of the dead, he wasn't talking literal dead, he was talking spiritual dead.  "Let the dead bury the dead".   The stuff I have in red in this passage, for me, the dead he speaks of and those that are "outside" are one and the same.  The subject hasn't changed.  There are millions who attend church yet are walking dead.  There are millions who are friends with those who are alive that rather than judge them to eternal hell, we should be encouraged that Christ comes to everyone of us.  This is an "individual" relationship that God offers to every man.  When those who are alive witness the coming of the Lord to those who are asleep, we ALL get CAUGHT UP in the resurrection experience.  But for me, nowhere does Paul end one subject and begin a new one about something that's happening 2,000 years later.  Love those who are alive and those who are dead.


Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2011, 07:36:29 PM »
But how can you regard them, who sleep in Jesus as spiritually dead?

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2011, 07:53:26 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
This is an "individual" relationship that God offers to every man.  When those who are alive witness the coming of the Lord to those who are asleep, we ALL get CAUGHT UP in the resurrection experience.

Do you not believe in a literal ressurection of the dead?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2011, 09:56:42 PM »
I do not believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh".
I do not believe in the physical rapturing of the church.
I don't believe in a literal 1000 year reign with Christ.

I believe every one of these things is a spiritual experience within us, not a physical event yet to come. 

I believe the reason Jesus came in the flesh the first time was to redeem THAT PART of man back to God.  I believe this was completely and fully accomplished by his very own words while on the cross.  "It is finished."

I believe the rapture, the "caught up" experience is what transpires every time Jesus appears to us as individuals.

And I also believe this 1000 year reign is "outside" of this physical realm.  And heaven is not governed or measured by time.  Time is measured by the sun and moon and you've read for yourselves that Revelation even says, there will be no more sun or moon.  If there is no measurement of time, then there is no specific 1000 years of anyone reigning.  It's a spiritual sign pointing toward a spiritual principle.

Try this on and see if it fits.

In Scripture, Jesus in speaking to the religious crowd stated "you search the Scriptures because in them you think you'll find eternal life.  But I tell you they all point to "me". 

Scripture, to me, is a book of signs that point to Christ.  It's not material to build a platform of doctrinal beliefs on, that comes from Christ building his church "with" me as a living stone.  Nor is the Bible to be used to build a house of my own . . .like . . a denomination for example.  I mean really, if you think about it. . .imagine what someone's house would look like if they used road signs as their materials.  All of these signs nailed next to each other . . ."no U turn"  . . ."No passing zone" . . ."speed limit" . . ."curve ahead" . . . on and on.  Your house would be built with all these signs, but their meaning would no longer be relevant because every one of the signs were removed from their original locations.

One house, hundreds of "directional/instructional" indicators and when you throw them all together, it's a house of confusion at best.

Then on the other end, you have others going down the same road and now that the sign has been removed, they're headed for disaster.

For me, this is what we do when we take Scripture out of context to reinforce our personal doctrines.  We rely on our mind's filtering system to "sift out" the meaning of specific lines and words without taking the rest of the context into consideration, and call it "discernment".  Even though there is no life manifesting in the end results.

I think topics like those I've listed above about what I believe are very similar to this same treatment.  I believe the majority of the church has taken the signs down from their intended locations and they've been "reconstructed" in other locations as "proof" that a belief is legit.  If "any" sign is removed from it's original path it immediately becomes dysfunctional.   It no longer carries the spiritual significance it once did because it's been removed from it's original context.

To embrace a literal 1000 year reign is removing the sign from it's original location. 

Walking in the spirit gives vision back to the journeymen to see where the signs were originally intended to be.  Walking in the flesh is continuing to build a house of doctrine with signs that have lost their accuracy and relevance.

Again, this is just something that recently came to me as an example of how religions lose their way from where the real truth lies.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2011, 10:25:08 PM »
And I also believe this 1000 year reign is "outside" of this physical realm.  And heaven is not governed or measured by time.  Time is measured by the sun and moon and you've read for yourselves that Revelation even says, there will be no more sun or moon.  If there is no measurement of time, then there is no specific 1000 years of anyone reigning.  It's a spiritual sign pointing toward a spiritual principle.
Nathan

Yes it says that there is no sun and moon AFTER the 1000 years of peace.

The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom. While you yourself may be saved billions of people are not, who are in bondage to the evil of this world. Without the millenium kingdom when will this evil age ever end? It could last forever, which is kind of like tormenting forever and ever.
Mankind is not spiritually mature enough to handle the technology today, and as time passes more and more restrictions are placed on individuals freedoms, to prevent misuse of the technology. The way I see it the millenium is Gods kingdom manifesting upon the earth and destroying the systems that are currently in place,as spoken by Daniel the prophet. The millenium is something to look forward to, not something to fear.
What happens on the inside of us changes us on the outside, which leads to works, or otherwise our faith is in vain according to Paul-James.



Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 12:26:06 AM »
You're still not understanding what I'm trying to say.  You agree that the 1000 year is "outside" of this realm yet you still also believe the natural sun and moon will measure time not only in this realm but also in the natural.  I disagree.  You also imply that "some" will be here while others will be celebrating 1000 years, which I'd assume you'd then say the 1000 year measured is not by those in the reigning with Christ, only by those still on earth that aren't.

Think about "that" concept.  We believe everyone will go to heaven, but not everyone can reign with him???  Or, everyone will "eventually" reign with Christ but only the elite will reign with him the first thousand years . . .in which case, if those that are reigning with Christ are in the spirit, what's a thousand years to them?  Does not Peter even tell us that a thousand years is as a day???
For me, natural minds can't comprehend what's spiritually existing without the Holy Spirit leading us there.  Everything is by faith, not fact.  Makes it frustrating for the fact-finders, but truth isn't based on tangible because what we see is only temporary. Truth is eternal.

Wit[i]hout the millenium kingdom when will this evil age ever end? It could last forever, which is kind of like tormenting forever and ever.[/i]

The age ends when it's over . .. when it's run it's course.  The literal thousand years isn't our goal.  We can reign with Christ NOW if we enter into the complete finished works . . .but our minds are so resistant to that "laying down" thing.

The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom  Again . . WHERE is the kingdom of God?  It's not in some far off place or time.  It's IN US.  The ones missing out on the kingdom are those that are not looking inwardly to see that it's been here all along.

What happens on the inside of us changes us on the outside, which leads to works, or otherwise our faith is in vain according to Paul-James

Not sure what you're attempting to connect that to.  But the works mentioned here is not about labor, it's about "function".  Faith is the gas that makes the engine "run".  It's what enables us to function in this life by illuminating the nature of His.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 12:52:53 AM »
I understand what you are saying that, the kingdom is within individuals. But the point I am making is  concerning mankind as a whole, that not all are saved in this age. The earth we live in continues to live ever onwards in its sinfull condition. But Christ came to not only change the spiritual nature of man but also the physical. Otherwise mankind will be in bondage to death for the rest of it's existence. The 1000 year millenium reign is a period of time in the future where God sets up an earthly kingdom, where he rules with an Iron rod, where Satan is bound. Time will still be in existence because the saints will be ruling over human being. The scriptures say the meek shall inherit the earth, blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. Being human beings means that the sun and moon are there, which also includes time. The saints of God will be as the angels of heaven, ascending and descending upon the earth, similar to Jacobs ladder. These are they who came out of great tribulation, they shall reign with Christ and rule for 1000 years. (rev)
Creation groaneth waiting for the manifestation for the sons of God, so that the Earth can live in peace, turning weapons into ploughshares, lamb lying down with the wolf.

Nathan
The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom  Again . . WHERE is the kingdom of God?  It's not in some far off place or time.  It's IN US.  The ones missing out on the kingdom are those that are not looking inwardly to see that it's been here all along.
---------------

But very few live in this kingdom. I am talking about a kingdom that is for all people, regardless of faith, not just for those who lay down their lives for christ, but for those who are hungry, the samirtan on the street, the deaf, the dumb, the blind, the poor of this world. Didn't Christ came for these too?

Jesus said for us to pray, let thy kingdom be on the earth as it is in heaven.

". . . They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid . . ." (Micah:4:3-4).

 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah:11:9).

Wild animals' nature transformed

 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them . . ." (Isaiah:11:6).

A world of agricultural abundance

 "'Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'when the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; the mountains shall drip with sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it . . . They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them'" (Amos:9:13-14).

 ". . . I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase" (Ezekiel:34:26-27).

Wastelands transformed

 ". . . Waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. The parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water . . ." (Isaiah:35:6-7).

Sickness and disease healed

 "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing" (Isaiah:35:5-6).

Mankind given a new heart and spirit

 "Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them . . . that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel:11:19-20).

Nations will learn God's ways

 "Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD . . . He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth . . .'" (Micah:4:2).

Jesus Christ will rule the world

 "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder . . . Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end . . ." (Isaiah:9:6-7).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:01:06 AM by thinktank »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 01:25:30 AM »
TT, if you run on that platform, I'll vote for you!

Nathan, do you believe in a literal resurrection of the body?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 01:54:45 AM »
This all sounds very much like the same mindsets the disciples had after Jesus had died.  At first, they were shocked that he actually died because they were totally expecting him to rise up an army and over throw the Romans and reestablish Israel . . .literally . . .just like what you're presenting here as "literal".  But when he died, they were forced to realize that it wasn't going to happen at all like they were imagining.  So what'd they do?  They went back to their old way of living . . .they went fishing.

All through the NIGHT (death, lack of knowledge and understanding) they fished for sustenance and caught nothing.  But then early in the morning (resurrection)  Jesus appeared and instructed them to throw the nets on the OTHER SIDE of the boat.  See any similarities there?  In Revelation, John was caught up in the spirit and heard a voice, but it was behind him . .. in order to SEE THE VOICE he had to TURN AROUND . . .cast your nets on the OTHER side.  Do you think Jesus was directing all of this just for the show?  It's all about spiritual principles.

And immediately, once again, they left their fishing/labor for following Jesus and STILL after everything they'd heard him tell them and saw him go through . . .they STILL were expecting him to TAKE THE THRONE and cast Rome out of Israel.  They were STILL looking for a literal over throw instead of realizing it was all spiritual.  Exact same thing as what's going on here in all of this. 

So, are you saying there "is" a rapture that will take place where all believers will then go to heaven along with dead unbelievers and in the mean time, the people again, to whom we were to go the second mile for, to embrace God's grace with, to love with all our hearts and soul and mind . . .screw them, we're going to heaven to party on and leave them behind???  That sounds much like an ET perspective, only not as harsh as you've chosen to delete eternal hell from all of that.  But if you're taking the thousand year reign literally, then you also have to take the destruction of the earth and everything in it literally as well.  You can't have it both ways.

Either the power of the cross overcame the retribution of sin in man or it didn't.  If men still have to go through a form of hell of ANY kind then the cross wasn't enough.  It takes the cross "and" whatever you want to fill that in with.  It becomes a very sticky doctrine again.  There "is" a literal thousand year reign but not a literal eternal place of torment.  There "is" a literal reversal of beastly natures between animal and man on the earth, but there's not really going to be a total destruction of the earth . . . if you keep this true to form, the Great Tribulation's end is what ushers in the 1000 year reign . . . and that opens a whole other can of worms.

I believe the cross caused ALL MEN to be saved.  But those that reject a relationship with Christ can not experience the unlimited benefits of such an inheritance that requires . . .a relationship with Jesus Christ.  This all pertains to THIS REALM.  When we pass through THE VEIL of death, for me, the ozone layer is a picture of death.  It's what defines our atmosphere from outer space.  It enables us to breathe, but it also separates us from what's on the other side.  Anything that passes through it is burned.  Death, for me does the same thing to the carnality that I've embraced in this realm.  Anything not eternal can not pass through the veil of death.  Carnality is not eternal. 

Are we to measure our actions on this earth to be greater than the acts of God beyond this earth?  Was not the sacrifice of Jesus the greatest act of all creation?  How then can our earthly acts negate the outcome of what the finished work of the cross has done?  Why would we spend a thousand years reigning with Jesus in this realm when he's already completed everything that needs to be done in this realm to enable us to go to his?

"I've gone on to prepare a place for you so that where I am, you will also be . . ."

Does that sound like Jesus is coming back here?  This place he's preparing ahead of us . . .is this just a temporary place for us to hang out until the thousand year reign brings us back to earth?  Quite frankly, I don't believe "this" earth we're living in is the same earth that existed before Adam and Eve were introduced to it.  And I don't think it'll be the same earth that will remain in the end as we know it to be now either.  This earth is still bound by the curse of the misalignment of Adam and until time releases it back to the Father's original creation of things, it will remain what it is.  But in the end, I believe that which is now spiritual but invisible will become visible and that which is tangible and visible now will become invisible.  The curse will be reversed for all creation.

But that's just where I'm seeing it today.

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 01:59:31 AM »
I understand what you are saying that, the kingdom is within individuals. But the point I am making is  concerning mankind as a whole, that not all are saved in this age. The earth we live in continues to live ever onwards in its sinfull condition. But Christ came to not only change the spiritual nature of man but also the physical. Otherwise mankind will be in bondage to death for the rest of it's existence. The 1000 year millenium reign is a period of time in the future where God sets up an earthly kingdom, where he rules with an Iron rod, where Satan is bound. Time will still be in existence because the saints will be ruling over human being. The scriptures say the meek shall inherit the earth, blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. Being human beings means that the sun and moon are there, which also includes time. The saints of God will be as the angels of heaven, ascending and descending upon the earth, similar to Jacobs ladder. These are they who came out of great tribulation, they shall reign with Christ and rule for 1000 years. (rev)
Creation groaneth waiting for the manifestation for the sons of God, so that the Earth can live in peace, turning weapons into ploughshares, lamb lying down with the wolf.

Nathan
The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom  Again . . WHERE is the kingdom of God?  It's not in some far off place or time.  It's IN US.  The ones missing out on the kingdom are those that are not looking inwardly to see that it's been here all along.
---------------

But very few live in this kingdom. I am talking about a kingdom that is for all people, regardless of faith, not just for those who lay down their lives for christ, but for those who are hungry, the samirtan on the street, the deaf, the dumb, the blind, the poor of this world. Didn't Christ came for these too?

Jesus said for us to pray, let thy kingdom be on the earth as it is in heaven.

". . . They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid . . ." (Micah:4:3-4).

 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah:11:9).

Wild animals' nature transformed

 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them . . ." (Isaiah:11:6).

A world of agricultural abundance

 "'Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'when the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; the mountains shall drip with sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it . . . They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them'" (Amos:9:13-14).

 ". . . I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase" (Ezekiel:34:26-27).

Wastelands transformed

 ". . . Waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. The parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water . . ." (Isaiah:35:6-7).

Sickness and disease healed

 "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing" (Isaiah:35:5-6).

Mankind given a new heart and spirit

 "Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them . . . that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel:11:19-20).

Nations will learn God's ways

 "Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD . . . He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth . . .'" (Micah:4:2).

Jesus Christ will rule the world

 "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder . . . Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end . . ." (Isaiah:9:6-7).

TT I kind of see this the same way you do.

CHB

Offline thinktank

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 02:07:55 AM »
This earth is still bound by the curse of the misalignment of Adam and until time releases it back to the Father's original creation of things, it will remain what it is.  But in the end, I believe that which is now spiritual but invisible will become visible and that which is tangible and visible now will become invisible.  The curse will be reversed for all creation.

But that's just where I'm seeing it today.

Nathan


So you do agree with me then, that there will be an earthly kingdom governed by Christ, as time passes, releases.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2011, 02:52:33 AM »

I believe the reason Jesus came in the flesh the first time was to redeem THAT PART of man back to God. 

Perfect!

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2011, 02:54:36 AM »

". . . They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid . . ." (Micah:4:3-4).

 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah:11:9).


Those who say there is to be a thousand years when Jesus reigns on the earth at Jerusalem and the Jews are exulted and doted on by Gentiles have a problem with the attack by the hordes of Gog and Magog that is supposed to come at the end of it.

If they don't learn war any more, why are they all equipped with swords and clubs and spears and bows and arrows, shields and bucklers, etc., as described by Ezekiel?

When the earth is full of the knowledge of the Lord, why would Satan be let loose, to deceive the nations? What a sad end to the thousand years -- all those people deceived, who attack the beloved city!

Some say that the attack by Gog and Magog comes at the beginning of the millennium rather than its end. Others say it is before the millennium, and they look every day for signs of an invasion by Russia and Iran and various other nations. But this idea is problematic, because the Jews have built a great wall or fence around the West Bank and the prophecy says the invaders come against "a land of unwalled villages." The Jewish state of today does not qualify; besides, the idea of armies coming on horses and armed with bows and arrows and spears and clubs does not fit today's military technology very well.

Still another idea is that there are two invasions, one at the start of the millennium, one at the end. Or, one before the millennium, and one at its end. The one at the end is based on Rev. 20:8-9. The first one is based on Ezekiel 38-39.

None of these schemes is very satisfactory, and the whole idea of a rebellion in the millennium seems to contradict what Isaiah wrote, "neither shall they learn war any more" ... "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain."

Hmm.. maybe we should consider another approach to those prophecies.



Jesus Christ will rule the world

 "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder . . . Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end . . ." (Isaiah:9:6-7).


"... and peace there will be no end"

This also seems to contradict the idea of a great revolt at the end of the thousand year reign...

Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2011, 03:17:47 AM »
Quote from: Nathan
This all sounds very much like the same mindsets the disciples had after Jesus had died.  At first, they were shocked that he actually died because they were totally expecting him to rise up an army and over throw the Romans and reestablish Israel . . .literally . . .just like what you're presenting here as "literal".  But when he died, they were forced to realize that it wasn't going to happen at all like they were imagining.  So what'd they do?  They went back to their old way of living . . .they went fishing.

They were expecting him to raise up a kingdom on earth because prophecy said he would.  They missed, or misunderstood, the suffering servant chapter of Isaiah. The cross was beyond their understanding, a mystery kept hidden by God.   But, they were right that prophecy predicted a king who would reign on earth.

 
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth." (Jer. 23:)

...and the government will be upon his shoulders  [Isa 9:6]



And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isa. 2)


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [Dan 2]


The predictions of Messiah as King on earth are so dramatically opposed to the suffering servant Messiah that some Jews have debated the possibility of there being two Messiahs.

Two Messiahs?   Or the same one, coming to earth twice in different capacities?

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2011, 03:29:28 AM »
Quote from: Doug
If they don't learn war any more, why are they all equipped with swords and clubs and spears and bows and arrows, shields and bucklers, etc., as described by Ezekiel

Quote
besides, the idea of armies coming on horses and armed with bows and arrows and spears and clubs does not fit today's military technology very well.

Einstein said WWIV would be fought with sticks and stones.

Hi Doug!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 05:34:58 AM »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2011, 06:51:44 AM »
Zechariah 9:9-10 -- A King of Peace
Israel certainly had her share of disappointing kings. The books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles attest to this history. But in Zechariah 9:9-10, the prophet points to a coming king who is unique.

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth."

This isn't just any king. The prophet tells the people of Israel to be joyful, to get excited, because the promised one, the one sent from God, the long awaited king, is coming. And so this passage has been interpreted as messianic; that is, it is often supposed that the king in this passage is none other than the Messiah, the savior of Israel.

Traditional Judaism teaches that, "The messiah is a G-d fearing, pious Jew, who is both a Torah scholar and a great leader. He is to be a direct descendent of King David, anointed as the new Jewish King. (In fact, the Hebrew word for messiah 'Moshiach' means 'anointed one.')"1

Many Jewish people do not give much thought to the coming of a Messiah anymore, and those who do often picture him as a mighty conqueror, even a superhero-type figure. But here in Zechariah 9 the picture is very different the king is not coming to fight a war; he comes in gentleness and meekness. He is the king over all the earth and he has all authority, but he comes in this humble fashion, riding on a baby donkey, as opposed to a chariot or even a great horse.

This passage of Scripture provides a picture of a Messiah-king, a deliverer of salvation, gently offering his kingship to Israel and to the world he is a man of peace for all peoples. He will proclaim peace to all the nations, not just to Israel.

In our world today peaceful people may win prizes, but they don't necessarily command authority. We've come to expect a certain amount of confidence, even arrogance, from our leaders. We expect them to do what they have to do to maintain order. Especially in Israel and the Middle East, it is difficult to fathom that someone could come to such power on peaceful terms. A king who does not fight? Yet in this passage, that is exactly what is promised.

Zechariah 14:2-4 -- A King of War
Later, however, Zechariah gives another description of the coming king, a picture quite different from that of chapter 9. Let's take a brief look at the context for his statement:

"For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured. Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south."

This picture is very much like an epic battle scene from a movie full of bloodshed and tragedy and triumph. Then in verses 8-9 we read:

"And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one."

Chapters 9 and 14 are the central passages in Zechariah telling of this king who will reign over all the earth. In chapter 9 the king is humble, but in chapter 14 he is a force to be reckoned with. In the latter picture, the king is a conqueror; he comes in wrath, meting out judgment to the enemies of Israel. This is perhaps a more traditional picture of Messiah, a mighty hero who fights on our behalf.

Mysteriously, this passage seems to suggest that this Messiah-king is none other than the Lord God himself, God coming to fight on behalf of his people (see page 8). In any case, we are presented with a dramatically different picture of the king here than the one we see in Zechariah 9.

Two Descriptions, Two Kings?
So the question is, does this king who reigns over all the earth come gently, riding on a donkey in peace? Or in great wrath, ready to do battle? Is Zechariah contradicting himself? This is a big puzzle for Jewish scholars as well. But this is not the only place in the Scriptures where we find seemingly divergent pictures of Messiah (see chart on page 5). For example, Micah 5 tells us he is born in Bethlehem, the city of David. But in Daniel 7 the prophet tells us he will arrive, riding on the clouds of heaven. Is the Messiah going to be cut off (killed) as predicted in Daniel 9, or will he come in regal splendor and reign forever, as Isaiah 9 tells us? Is he the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 or a royal king portrayed in Psalm 2?

In response to these two seemingly opposite pictures of Messiah, some rabbis decided that there must be two messiahs, the Messiah ben Yosef who would come and suffer and Messiah ben David, who would come as a conquering king.

Another Jewish tradition explains the two contrasting portraits of Messiah like this: "If the people of Israel will be righteous, the Messiah will come in the clouds of Heaven. If they will not be righteous, he will come as a poor man riding upon an ass" (Sanhedrin 98a).

Are such explanations necessary or is it possible that one individual might "fit the bill" of both pictures; someone who would be both a king of peace and a king of power, a humble servant and a conqueror? If so, what would this extraordinary person look like?

The Once and Future King
There is still another Jewish view concerning the two pictures of the Messiah-king that accurately fulfills the portrait we see in Zechariah and elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. This view actually predates the other two mentioned. It's the position presented in the New Testament.

The writers of the New Testament were Jewish people, living in the first century, who believed that the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures described one Messiah, a great king who was to come twice, first as a servant, then as conqueror. They believed that Y'shua (Jesus) was the fulfillment of both expectations.

Y'shua was not a typical king. His was a life marked by humility. He was a man of gentleness and peace. But the peace he offered was different from what most people think about it was a peace that comes from the depth of personal spiritual solutions that Y'shua offered to people who would follow him.

"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful" (John 14:27).

"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10).

Near the close of Y'shua's life on earth, he called to his disciples to get a donkey with its colt. Just before Passover, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt of a donkey, fulfilling the prophecy Zechariah gave more than five hundred years earlier. And the people shouted and rejoiced:

"Hosha-na to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosha-na in the highest!" (Matthew 21:9).

The people were shouting, "Save us!" They understood that their king had come and that he was offering powerful, life-changing salvation to those who would welcome him. In fact, the name "Y'shua" means "God saves."

Though Y'shua did not usher in an age of "peace on earth" as many hoped then and many wish for today, he did offer peace with God to everyone willing to trust in him and the atonement for sin he offered through his death and resurrection.

Y'shua was a man of peace, but he was also a man of strength. He boldly proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, the Son of God, even though he knew that he would be crucified for these claims.

That's because Y'shua also knew that he possessed the power of an indestructible life. Though he was to die, he knew that he would rise again. Consider his words to a Jewish audience:

"I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again " (John 10:17b-18d).

It was a hard claim to believe and yet many witnessed Jesus' resurrection and were willing to die proclaiming the truth of his life. Today, millions of people around the world wait for his return.

What will that return look like? According to Zechariah it will be a day of judgment, but also a day of deliverance for those who honor the king:

"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty " (Zechariah 14:6).

So the king came first to offer his kingship, to give people the chance to enthrone him. One day he'll come again to take by force what is rightfully his. Like a parent dealing with children: the father or mother hopes the children will obey on their own, so they begin dealing with them gently, but when the children refuse to submit, the parents insist and enforce their will with resolve. This is the picture Zechariah paints of the king who has come, the one who will come again.

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/15_5/returningking

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2011, 02:28:46 PM »
Zechariah 9:9-10 -- A King of Peace
Israel certainly had her share of disappointing kings. The books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles attest to this history. But in Zechariah 9:9-10, the prophet points to a coming king who is unique.

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth."


When Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the ass, and the colt following, he fulfilled Zechariah 9:9-10, according to Matthew 21:4. He was called the king of Jerusalem; they crowned him with a crown of thorns, and put a label on his cross, "Jesus the King of the Jews."

Isaiah 2:1-3 says the mountain of the Lord's house will be "established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills." This is fulfilled in the New Testament; Jerusalem is "the Jerusalem which is above" [Gal. 4:26] and Heb. 12:22 says "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."

Jerusalem was raised up, higher than the hills, to heaven, when Jesus ascended to heaven, which fulfills Isaiah's prophecy. Those who believe in him have been "delivered from the power of darkness," and they have been "translated" into Christ's kingdom. [Colossians 1:13] His kingdom is invisible, not an earthly one.
 
To be "delivered from the power of darkness," corresponds to the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3.
 
Paul said, in Ephesians 2:5-6, that the saints "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." In the same epistle he spoke of "spiritual wickedness in high places," that the saints wrestle against.

Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The armor of God includes a breastplate, shoes, a shield, a helmet, a sword, and Paul says "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth."

Compare this armor with the swords carried by the hordes of Gog and Magog, [Ezekiel 38:4] and their shields, bucklers, bows and arrows, handstaves, and spears. [Ezekiel 39:9]

Paul said the sword represents the Scriptures, and in Psalm 64:3, arrows are identified with "bitter words."

The armies of Gog and Magog all ride upon horses, [Ezekiel 38:15] and horses are involved in the invasion described in Zechariah's prophecy too. "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness." [Zechariah 12:4]

The horses, asses, mules, and camels in the assault upon Jerusalem are smitten with an awful plague. [Zechariah 14:15] Horses and mules are symbolic of people with no understanding. "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." [Psalm 32:9] Note that plagues are often infectious; the flawed interpretations of prophecy are likewise very infectious, and affect many. 

Those who have claimed that Ezekiel's prophecy is about a military attack on the Jews by  a group of nations including Russia and Iran and various other nations are greatly embarrassed by the construction of the Israeli West Bank Separation Barrier in the last 10 years, which thwarts their interpretation of Ezekiel's prophecy, and exposes their interpretations as completely false.

John interprets Ezekiel's prophecy about Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:9 as an assault upon "the camp of the saints" and "the beloved city," which is the church, the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 21. The thousand years, then, must be something other than the millennium of dispensationalism.

In his prophecy about the "thousand years," John declared that during that period, Satan is bound, and no longer deceives the nations, and in the same period of time, those who have been "beheaded" reign with Christ, and they are priests of God and of Christ. The apostle Peter said that a thousand years with God is as a day, and a day as a thousand years. [2 Peter 3:8] Thus, when John mentioned a thousand years as the length of the saints' reign with Christ, this must be a figurative number, to be understood spiritually, rather than in terms of the letter, as earth days, earth months, and earth years, do not apply to things that are spiritual. The reign of the beheaded saints together with Christ, in Revelation 21, is clearly a spiritual concept. How could it be otherwise?

In Ecclesiastes 6:6, "a thousand years" is related to a portion of a human lifetime; "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"

The apostle Peter wrote, "the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries." [1 Peter 4:3] He encouraged the believer "to live the rest of his time in the flesh" according to the will of God.

Paul spoke of the old nature as dead, and the saints being made anew--a new creature. "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." [Romans 7:6]

This could be what is signified by beheading in Revelation 20. Paul said: "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind." [Ephesians 4:23] This leads naturally to the idea of "beheading" as a metaphor of the person who repents and lives the new way, subject to  Christ.

Those who are beheaded reign with Christ, and beheading is personal and individual. The "thousand years" applies to individuals, not the whole church. The "time, times and a half" applies to the whole age of the church, but the "thousand years" is associated with the individual who has been figuratively "beheaded" reigning with Christ. Beheading is also associated with the idea of sacrifice, as some animals that were sacrificed were beheaded. Paul wrote:

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Doug



« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:59:40 PM by Doug »

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2011, 04:51:04 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Some say that the attack by Gog and Magog comes at the beginning of the millennium rather than its end. Others say it is before the millennium, and they look every day for signs of an invasion by Russia and Iran and various other nations. But this idea is problematic, because the Jews have built a great wall or fence around the West Bank and the prophecy says the invaders come against "a land of unwalled villages." The Jewish state of today does not qualify;



Quote
Those who have claimed that Ezekiel's prophecy is about a military attack on the Jews by a group of nations including Russia and Iran and various other nations are greatly embarrassed by the construction of the Israeli West Bank Separation Barrier in the last 10 years, which thwarts their interpretation of Ezekiel's prophecy, and exposes their interpretations as completely false.


I'm not sure that the wall is meant to wall in the villages of Israel as much as to wall in the villages of Palestine.  Nor does it seem to me that the west bank barrier acts as an embarrassment to the Christian world due to the so called foiling of prophecy as much as an outrage due to human rights violations and violations of international law.

Could we argue that Israel is still a land of unwalled villages?  Absolutely.  It is Palestine that has become a land of walled villages, not Israel, oftentimes cutting off one half of the village from the other, and one part of the country from another.



"The Israeli West Bank barrier is a separation barrier (see "Names of the barrier") being constructed by the State of Israel along and within the West Bank. Upon completion, the barrier's total length will be approximately 760 kilometres (470 mi) (twice the length of the 1949 Armistice Line (Green Line) between the West Bank and Israel). The barrier is a fence with vehicle-barrier trenches surrounded by an on average 60 metres (200 ft) wide exclusion area (90% of its length), and an 8 metres (26 ft) tall concrete wall (10% of its length).[1] The barrier is built mainly in the West Bank and partly along the 1949 Armistice line, or "Green Line" between Israel and Palestinian West Bank. 12% of the West Bank area is on the Israel side of the barrier.[2]

Supporters argue that the barrier is necessary to protect Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorism, including the suicide bombing attacks that increased significantly during the Second Intifada.[3] There has been a reduced number of incidents of suicide bombings since the construction of the barrier. According to statistics published by the Israeli government, between 2000 and July 2003, when the "first continuous segment" of the barrier was built, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. However, from August 2003 and the end of 2006, only 12 attacks were carried out, killing 64 Israelis and wounding 445.[4] Supporters argue that this is indicative of the barrier being effective in preventing such attacks.[5]

Opponents of the barrier object that the route substantially deviates from the Green Line into the occupied territories captured by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967. They argue that the barrier is an illegal attempt to annex Palestinian land under the guise of security,[6] violates international law,[7] has the effect of undermining negotiations (by establishing new borders),[8] and severely restricts Palestinians who live nearby, particularly their ability to travel freely within the West Bank and to access work in Israel.[8] In a 2004 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall". The Court found that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law".[9]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:54:49 PM by Molly »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2011, 04:56:00 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
This all sounds very much like the same mindsets the disciples had after Jesus had died.  At first, they were shocked that he actually died because they were totally expecting him to rise up an army and over throw the Romans and reestablish Israel . . .literally . . .just like what you're presenting here as "literal".  But when he died, they were forced to realize that it wasn't going to happen at all like they were imagining.  So what'd they do?  They went back to their old way of living . . .they went fishing.

They were expecting him to raise up a kingdom on earth because prophecy said he would.  They missed, or misunderstood, the suffering servant chapter of Isaiah. The cross was beyond their understanding, a mystery kept hidden by God.   But, they were right that prophecy predicted a king who would reign on earth.

 
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth." (Jer. 23:)

...and the government will be upon his shoulders  [Isa 9:6]



And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isa. 2)


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [Dan 2]


The predictions of Messiah as King on earth are so dramatically opposed to the suffering servant Messiah that some Jews have debated the possibility of there being two Messiahs.

Two Messiahs?   Or the same one, coming to earth twice in different capacities?

Neither one.
One Christ CAME to the earth and fulfilled the prophecies.  He did everything you just quoted.  His judgments were righteousness.  I seriously don't think these passages skip over the cross experience only to tell you that he's coming again in the end of time to rule over the earth.  One has to "add to" what's there in order to take away an idea that he's coming twice physically.

Perhaps TT has hit on something here in that we may be saying the same things about what's going on on the earth but in my eyes, the earth "then" isn't going to be in the same state as it is now.  I believe when the curse is removed, the natural realm will no longer be the dominant realm as it is today.  I believe the earth will still exist.  I believe the meek truly will inherit not just the dominion over "my" earth, but also "the" earth it's just that the natural realm will no longer be what it is now.  I believe there will be a reversal of which realm is visible (primary) to us and which is invisible, (secondary) but still existing.

And maybe that's where the differences are.  I don't believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh" to the realm of flesh.  But I do believe he returned, returns and will be returning.  He returned to "this" earth 2000 years ago.  He returns to "our" earth individually and resurrects us from our death and he'll return to the whole earth but after the reversal of the order of spirit and flesh.

I believe a lot of the prophecies about the Gog and Maygog have already happened in history and continue to happen within us metaphorically but to project wars to be around after the end has come, I don't agree with that.

Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2011, 05:04:22 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
And maybe that's where the differences are.  I don't believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh" to the realm of flesh.  But I do believe he returned, returns and will be returning.  He returned to "this" earth 2000 years ago.  He returns to "our" earth individually and resurrects us from our death and he'll return to the whole earth but after the reversal of the order of spirit and flesh.

No one is saying he will return in the 'flesh.'   He will return in his glorified body and our flesh will be changed in an instant, in the blinking of an eye.

For those who carry his Spirit, yes he 'returns and will be returning.'

Even so, the world cannot see him.


But, when he returns in his glorified body, the whole world will see it at the same time.


And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
 [Isa 40:5]


Am I the only one whose heart leaps at this?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 05:19:35 PM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2011, 06:09:22 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Neither one.
One Christ CAME to the earth and fulfilled the prophecies.  He did everything you just quoted.  His judgments were righteousness.  I seriously don't think these passages skip over the cross experience only to tell you that he's coming again in the end of time to rule over the earth.  One has to "add to" what's there in order to take away an idea that he's coming twice physically.

Perhaps TT has hit on something here in that we may be saying the same things about what's going on on the earth but in my eyes, the earth "then" isn't going to be in the same state as it is now.  I believe when the curse is removed, the natural realm will no longer be the dominant realm as it is today.  I believe the earth will still exist.  I believe the meek truly will inherit not just the dominion over "my" earth, but also "the" earth it's just that the natural realm will no longer be what it is now.  I believe there will be a reversal of which realm is visible (primary) to us and which is invisible, (secondary) but still existing.

And maybe that's where the differences are.  I don't believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh" to the realm of flesh.  But I do believe he returned, returns and will be returning.  He returned to "this" earth 2000 years ago.  He returns to "our" earth individually and resurrects us from our death and he'll return to the whole earth but after the reversal of the order of spirit and flesh.

I believe a lot of the prophecies about the Gog and Maygog have already happened in history and continue to happen within us metaphorically but to project wars to be around after the end has come, I don't agree with that.

Hi Nathan,

I believe a lot of prophecy has already happened but I still believe there are things still to happen, such as, Christ returning to earth. A resurrection. God will wipe away all tears. No more death, no more sorrow. God will see to it that the knowledge of him and truth will cover the earth. There will be a time of peace that even the animals will adhere to.  I think Israel will have her kingdom which was promised to her, which will probably last for a 1000 years. I believe during this time is when the nations will be taught the truth. All things will become new. All will be in all.

As far as the antichrist and the other beast, they probably have already had their day in 70AD.  I do think Daniel chapter 9 has already been fulfilled.  If one notices this prophecy is for Israel because in verse 19 Daniel is praying and confessing his sins and the sins OF HIS PEOPLE.  Also in verse 24 it says Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY. (Dan. 10: 14) it says, "Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall THY PEOPLE IN THE LATTER DAYS.  I think all of this is for Israel just like Revelation is written to the seven Churches of the Jew's or Israel. I do think that some things in Revelation will apply to the end time, like the wipeing away of all tears, no more death or sorrow.  God dwelling with mankind. All things becoming new. 

I don't know if I left anything out or not but was wondering how you saw these things?

CHB

Doug

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2011, 06:52:21 PM »

I'm not sure that the wall is meant to wall in the villages of Israel as much as to wall in the villages of Palestine.  Nor does it seem to me that the west bank barrier acts as an embarrassment to the Christian world due to the so called foiling of prophecy as much as an outrage due to human rights violations and violations of international law.

Could we argue that Israel is still a land of unwalled villages?  Absolutely.  It is Palestine that has become a land of walled villages, not Israel, oftentimes cutting off one half of the village from the other, and one part of the country from another.


It is a mistake, I think, to equate "Israel" with a regime in the Middle East, simply because some Jewish Zionist politicians in the 1940's picked that name. Even Orthodox Jews have denied that it is legitimate to call it "Israel."

"Zionism is an ideology that by definition opposed the Torah, since the Torah teaches that Jews must wait for the coming of the messiah, whereas Zionism attempts to replace the messiah with a redemption of our own." [http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/]

"From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole."
...
"Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people." [Zionists Do Not Represent Jews]

It is also a major mistake, for understanding prophecy. The name "Israel" is significant, as many OT prophecies and promises apply to it.

In the book of Revelation, John says the saints are sealed, and they are included among the 12 tribes of Israel [Chapter 7]. He gives the names of each of the tribes. The number sealed, 12,000 of each tribe, is clearly a symbolic number. It is also used in the description of the holy city in Chapter 21. The dimensions of the city are 12,000 furlongs, its length and breadth and height being equal. This city is the "bride of the Lamb" so it represents the Church. Many of the things said of it are derived from Isaiah 60.

John also identifies the church with the temple of God, and the holy city, that is trampled by Gentiles [Chapter 11].

In Chapter 12 the seed of the woman, who represents the Church, are those who keep the commandments of God, and they overcome Satan.

In Chapter 13 the saints are those who don't worship the beast or his image, but the beast makes war with them.

In Chapter 14 he calls them virgins, and firstfruits, and they follow Christ wherever he leads.

In Chapter 20 they are beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and they reign with Christ 1,000 years; they are blessed and holy, and they are not hurt by the 2nd death. The 1,000 years is identified as a "day" by Peter in 2 Pet. 3:8; Jesus said, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." [John 9:4] He contrasts day and night, and both are figurative. Day refers to the enlightenment provided by the Gospel.

Paul said, "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." [1 Thessalonians 5:5]

The thousand years is connected with day, and walking in the light of the Gospel.

Doug


Offline Molly

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2011, 07:10:52 PM »
Quote from: Doug
It is a mistake, I think, to equate "Israel" with a regime in the Middle East, simply because some Jewish Zionist politicians in the 1940's picked that name. Even Orthodox Jews have denied that it is legitimate to call it "Israel."

Quote
It is also a major mistake, for understanding prophecy. The name "Israel" is significant, as many OT prophecies and promises apply to it.

I hear you.   And, I agree the word 'Israel" depends on the context.

I feel that what is happening in this age is a shadow of the real thing which will happen in the next age.

I'm not sure if you are saying all prophecy is now fulfilled, but I don't believe that.  Nor do I believe it is even perfectly fulfilled for the firstfruits, the chosen of this age.

We are told that we are getting a 'taste' of the good things to come, and we are still looking in a clouded mirror.

So we wait, for a city built by God.

But, I believe his kingdom will come to earth one day and cover the earth like the water covers the sea.



Taste and see that the LORD is good. Oh, the joys of those who take refuge in him!  [Psa 34:8]


Offline Aleax

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Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2011, 12:34:42 AM »
:cloud9: @ Aleax......And as always, the best thing to do is ask the LORD to reveal the truth to you. My  :2c:  Blessings....

I don't have the same kind of "direct" relationship with Him like some other people seem to do. Therefore, I depend on what other people are telling me. Fortunately, I know several trustworthy people with the gift of prophecy, and I have received accurate personal prophecy with advice several times.

However, I have had two major experiences that can be considered direct answers to prayers. The first one when I launched my latest attempt at becoming a Christian. At that time my knowledge of the Bible was even worse than nowadays, and I got worried over this infamous "unpardonable sin". So I asked God whether I had done it. I told Him if a certain person calls me after I've finished the prayer, I take that as a "no, you haven't". Immediately after I'd finished the prayer, this person called me. (He usually calls me about once a week.)

The second major experience was in the summer of 2010, when I was suffering a nervous breakdown because of the ET doctrine. I had compulsive negative religious thoughts about 24/7, except for the times I was asleep or under influence. I was quite well on my way to either losing my sanity, becoming an alcoholic or both. Ultimately I told God it's either that He tells me the truth on this UR/ET thing, or I commit suicide. Shortly after that something/someone (God? Holy Spirit?) impressed upon me that I should seek information about a person called "Dora van Assen". I did exactly what I was told, read her testimony and was greatly relieved. That experience started my road to recovery. And that's also the reason I've gone so much by her theology. I know we should be careful as in to what we take in as the truth, but my situation was roughly analogous to me being a sole survivor of a plane crash. The plane's fallen in middle of the desert. So I start walking and hope to reach civilization before I dehydrate. Just when I'm about to die I find an oasis. In that situation, would you just drink the water or start wondering on whether the water is drinkable or contaminated?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross