Prophecy

[dajomaco]

Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.

The only way to the Christian God is through Jesus Christ and obviously that is not true of  Allah,  the muslim god.  They consider Jesus a prophet of less status than Muhammed.

Rick Warren et al have been bought off by someone, IMO.

Molly only God knows the secrets which lay in the heart of man ( and woman)

[Molly]

The Black Horseman of Revelation 6

Behold, a black horse...

He is heralding death by famine.


There shall be...famine...

--Luke 21:11

There will be famines...

--Mat 24:7



One day's pay for that day's food for one person.  How do you pay for food for your family?  How do you pay for other necessities?


A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;

--Rev 6:6


The Black Horseman of famine rides behind the Red Horseman of war.  This famine will happen in the context of war.   


3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

--Rev 6



The pair of scales in the Black Horseman's hand suggest that the food supply is being rationed.  It also suggests only those who can pay will get food.  And, only those who can work will get paid.  Inflation destroys those who cannot work because of age or sickness, the poor, the young, the old, the ill-prepared.




5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
 
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny...

--Rev 6



And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  --Mat 24:22

[sheila]

let the wheat and tares grow togather.....then He says to the angels...first gather the tares and bind them

  into bundles for burning...then...gather in the wheat to my storehouse..   Do Not store up for

  yourselves treasures on earth..where moths and rust consume...STORE UP FOR YOURSELVES

  TREASURE IN HEAVEN

[jabcat]

The Black Horseman of Revelation 6

There shall be...famine...

One day's pay for that day's food for one person.  How do you pay for food for your family?  How do you pay for other necessities?


A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;

--Rev 6:6

The pair of scales in the Black Horseman's hand suggest that the food supply is being rationed.  It also suggests only those who can pay will get food.  And, only those who can work will get paid.  Inflation destroys those who cannot work because of age or sickness, the poor, the young, the old, the ill-prepared.
 
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny...

--Rev 6



And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  --Mat 24:22

Molly, this prompts me to mention a couple of things;

a penny for a bushel doesn't sound like much...but perhaps taking inflation into account, and/or that's it not literal may answer that


"work = eat"...what about the mark, "can neither buy nor sell"?  Maybe work=eat is only applying to those in the system, while God's flock is being protected in some other manner...

[Molly]

A measure of wheat for a penny - See the margin. The word rendered "measure" - χοινιξ choinix - denotes an Attic measure for grain and things dry, equal to the 48th part of the Attic medimnus, or the 8th part of the Roman modius, and consequently was nearly equivalent to one quart English (Robinson's Lexicon). The word rendered "penny," δηναρίον dēnarion - Latin, denarius - was of the same value as the Greek δραχμή drachmē, and was equivalent to about fourteen cents or seven-pence (circa mid-19th century). This was the usual price of a day's labor, Matthew 20:2, Matthew 20:9. The choenix, or measure of grain here referred to, was the ordinary daily allowance for one man (Odyssey xix. 27, 28). See Stuart, in loco. The common price of the Attic medimnus of wheat was five or six denarii; but here, as that contained 48 choenixes or quarts, the price would be augmented to 48 denarii - or it would be about eight times as dear as ordinary; that is, there would be a scarcity or famine. The price of a bushel of wheat at this rate would be about four dollars and a half or 18 shillings - a price which would indicate great scarcity, and which would give rise to much distress.

--Barnes notes



So there you have it.  A bushel of wheat costs 8 times normal.  A man has to work all day to pay for his daily food.  No work, no food.

It's a pretty simple equation of scarcity, inflation, and famine.


Will God's people be somehow outside this system?  I don't know, yet.

I only know he's warning us.

[sheila]

in some parts of the world that's already true. Been to the grocery store lately? american drought is not over..

  but continuing.

[eaglesway]

Zec 11:6-17
(6)  "For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land," declares the LORD; "but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another's power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power."
(7)  So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.
(8)  Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.
(9)  Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
(10)  I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
(11)  So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.
(12)  I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.
(13)  Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
(14)  Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
(15)  The LORD said to me, "Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd.
(16)  "For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
(17)  "Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."

When God breaks the staffs Favor and Union, nobody likes you and you don't like each other.

Lev 26:26  'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.

Eze 4:16  Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, behold, I am going to break the staff of bread in Jerusalem, and they will eat bread by weight and with anxiety, and drink water by measure and in horror,

Psa 105:16  And He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread.

When God breaks the staff of bread then famine overtakes the people.

God breaks these staffs because of the backslidings of the people, to regain their attention.

[dajomaco]

[

Zec 11:6-17
(6)  "For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land," declares the LORD; "but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another's power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power."
(7)  So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.
(8)  Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.
(9)  Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
(10)  I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
(11)  So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.
(12)  I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.
(13)  Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
(14)  Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
(15)  The LORD said to me, "Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd.
(16)  "For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
(17)  "Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."

When God breaks the staffs Favor and Union, nobody likes you and you don't like each other.

Lev 26:26  'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.

Eze 4:16  Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, behold, I am going to break the staff of bread in Jerusalem, and they will eat bread by weight and with anxiety, and drink water by measure and in horror,

Psa 105:16  And He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread.

When God breaks the staff of bread then famine overtakes the people.

God breaks these staffs because of the backslidings of the people, to regain their attention.

[eaglesway]

By Favor and Union a nation is exalted

By Bread a nation is powered

But man is not powered by bread alone- rather, by every word that Cometh out of the mouth of God.

When man quits listening

Favor is lost, Union disintegrates and Bread becomes scarc e

[thinktank]

Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.

The only way to the Christian God is through Jesus Christ and obviously that is not true of  Allah,  the muslim god.  They consider Jesus a prophet of less status than Muhammed.

Rick Warren et al have been bought off by someone, IMO.

IMO, that's why we have to be careful about clinging to and standing for sound doctrine.  "Deceivers will wax worse and worse..deceiving and being deceived".

A well-known minister said these things.  Even more than that, he's a believer in some form of universal salvation.

"..the operative idea here is that there is a right and wrong theology -- a right God and a wrong God. But this is an invalid premise. All versions of God are the same thing: A HUMAN INTERPRETATION OF THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS."

"God, however, is Spirit and cannot be confined exclusively to any particular religion including Christianity. He's not Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist; yet, He is all of that if we want or need Him to be.."

"Everyone loves Christ. The word "Messiah" simply means "anointed one." All the religions spiritually overlap and are intertwined. They all have meaning and all should be respected and valued. I'm discovering that the Prophets are basically saying the same thing; it is the theologians that are confused."

"[God is] so inclusive, it's hard to believe.  He put the versions of Himself back together in Christ. There's a version of God that's Hindu. There's a version of God that's Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Baha'i. It's so beautiful."


Caveat emptor!

I like the idea and also believe other religions can promote peace and Godly principles, but my concern is that the scriptural truth and authority of Christ is lost in the blur, where Christ is just one path of many. It seems impossible but the other religions must submit to the authority of Christ. They probably would say the same thing about their God, so the "democratic" thing is to compromise and we all sheepily say that all religions have a path towards God.

[eaglesway]

As yet we do not see a version of Christianity worthy of submitting to. Come Quickly Lord Jesus!

[thinktank]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

I can GUARANTEE  whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.

That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.

[eaglesway]

Many having already endured great tribulation and having overcome by the grace of God :o)

[Molly]

So--when Jesus returns. the angels will gather his elect from one part of earth to the other and one part of heaven to the other.   Does that mean an angel will appear to me and say, 'It's time,"  the way the angels came for Lot?

That the saints should be scattered all over the earth is not surprising.  But, what I don't see anyone mentioning is that there are all these saints scattered all over heaven.  Who are they?  The so-called 'dead in Christ'?  And, these so-called dead in Christ actually return with Jesus for the first resurrection.  How can this be?




31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.  Mat 24



13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

--1 Thess 4




 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

--Mark 13



14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  --Jude 1




The 'holy ones,' hagios, 'saints' who are the 'dead in Christ' will have a front row seat to their own resurrection.  But, meanwhile they are doing whatever one does in heaven.




For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5



2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.  John 14



26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

[Paul L]

author=thinktank link=topic=10395.msg146186#msg146186 date=1355438746]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

I can GUARANTEE  whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.

That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.

This is the best response I have ever seen put into in words over this controversy. So often I have thought about the concept......you penned the words.

[thinktank]

So--when Jesus returns. the angels will gather his elect from one part of earth to the other and one part of heaven to the other.   Does that mean an angel will appear to me and say, 'It's time,"  the way the angels came for Lot?
Molly

No he comes like a thief in the night. when these things begin to come to pass, look up your redemption draweth nigh.

Although by faith I hope God will give us a weeks or 24 hour warning to prepare and sanctify ourselves like Ether did with the king.

[thinktank]

author=thinktank link=topic=10395.msg146186#msg146186 date=1355438746]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

I can GUARANTEE  whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.

That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.

This is the best response I have ever seen put into in words over this controversy. So often I have thought about the concept......you penned the words.

Thank you brother, God bless you.

[Paul L]

So--when Jesus returns. the angels will gather his elect from one part of earth to the other and one part of heaven to the other.   Does that mean an angel will appear to me and say, 'It's time,"  the way the angels came for Lot?
Molly

No he comes like a thief in the night. when these things begin to come to pass, look up your redemption draweth nigh.

Although by faith I hope God will give us a weeks or 24 hour warning to prepare and sanctify ourselves like Ether did with the king.

TT, if you don't stop posting for the night, I won't be able to get any sleep because you've got me laughing so hard with your uproariously insightful humor. Two posts in a row, right on the mark............luv ya guy. (by the way, is that a real picture of you we see?).

[jabcat]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

I can GUARANTEE  whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.

That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.

That's interesting tank..how do you think they/we get there?  If most are sleeping, that sounds like martyrdom to me  - which sounds like tribulation.  But I'm likely missing something, so I'm asking what you see here?  Tanks :).

[jabcat]

A measure of wheat for a penny - See the margin. The word rendered "measure" - χοινιξ choinix - denotes an Attic measure for grain and things dry, equal to the 48th part of the Attic medimnus, or the 8th part of the Roman modius, and consequently was nearly equivalent to one quart English (Robinson's Lexicon). The word rendered "penny," δηναρίον dēnarion - Latin, denarius - was of the same value as the Greek δραχμή drachmē, and was equivalent to about fourteen cents or seven-pence (circa mid-19th century). This was the usual price of a day's labor, Matthew 20:2, Matthew 20:9. The choenix, or measure of grain here referred to, was the ordinary daily allowance for one man (Odyssey xix. 27, 28). See Stuart, in loco. The common price of the Attic medimnus of wheat was five or six denarii; but here, as that contained 48 choenixes or quarts, the price would be augmented to 48 denarii - or it would be about eight times as dear as ordinary; that is, there would be a scarcity or famine. The price of a bushel of wheat at this rate would be about four dollars and a half or 18 shillings - a price which would indicate great scarcity, and which would give rise to much distress.

--Barnes notes



So there you have it.  A bushel of wheat costs 8 times normal.  A man has to work all day to pay for his daily food.  No work, no food.

It's a pretty simple equation of scarcity, inflation, and famine.


Will God's people be somehow outside this system?  I don't know, yet.

I only know he's warning us.

Good, interesting info Molly.  Thanks! 

[Molly]

He will come as a thief in the night to others, but not to us because we are children of the day and we are watching for his return.






Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters,[a] we don't really need to write you. 2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord's return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. 3 When people are saying, "Everything is peaceful and secure," then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman's labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.

4 But you aren't in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won't be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief. 5 For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don't belong to darkness and night. 6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded. 7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk. 8 But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.

9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever. 11 So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.

--1 Thess 5




"I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. 3 Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don't wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.  Rev 3

[thinktank]

A measure of wheat for a penny - See the margin. The word rendered "measure" - χοινιξ choinix - denotes an Attic measure for grain and things dry, equal to the 48th part of the Attic medimnus, or the 8th part of the Roman modius, and consequently was nearly equivalent to one quart English (Robinson's Lexicon). The word rendered "penny," δηναρίον dēnarion - Latin, denarius - was of the same value as the Greek δραχμή drachmē, and was equivalent to about fourteen cents or seven-pence (circa mid-19th century). This was the usual price of a day's labor, Matthew 20:2, Matthew 20:9. The choenix, or measure of grain here referred to, was the ordinary daily allowance for one man (Odyssey xix. 27, 28). See Stuart, in loco. The common price of the Attic medimnus of wheat was five or six denarii; but here, as that contained 48 choenixes or quarts, the price would be augmented to 48 denarii - or it would be about eight times as dear as ordinary; that is, there would be a scarcity or famine. The price of a bushel of wheat at this rate would be about four dollars and a half or 18 shillings - a price which would indicate great scarcity, and which would give rise to much distress.

--Barnes notes



So there you have it.  A bushel of wheat costs 8 times normal.  A man has to work all day to pay for his daily food.  No work, no food.

It's a pretty simple equation of scarcity, inflation, and famine.


Will God's people be somehow outside this system?  I don't know, yet.

I only know he's warning us.

Good, interesting info Molly.  Thanks! 

Its interesting that God tells his horseman, not to hurt the oil or wine. Oil and wine are often used by Christians throughout the scriptures and wine is used in communion. It could be that believers are spared in some sense.

[thinktank]

TT, if you don't stop posting for the night, I won't be able to get any sleep because you've got me laughing so hard with your uproariously insightful humor. Two posts in a row, right on the mark............luv ya guy. (by the way, is that a real picture of you we see?).

 .  No the pic is of Bono a singer in a band called U2. He's kind of a Christian, giving to charity etc.

[thinktank]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

I can GUARANTEE  whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.

That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.

That's interesting tank..how do you think they/we get there?  If most are sleeping, that sounds like martyrdom to me  - which sounds like tribulation.  But I'm likely missing something, so I'm asking what you see here?  Tanks :).

The typical church teaching, is that the bodies of the saints, of all generations await in their graves, until the harvest of the earth is ripe. The spirits have already gone home to the Lord and await the redemption  of their bodies. So all these will miss the tribulation, great tribulation. The ones left alive will not have to experience death, but be translated.

The thoughts I had once were similar to this, except that there were two groups of the dead in Christ. Those like Paul who depart and went to be with Christ and in some sense continue to minister in heaven and others, possibly e.g Ellen G white who go to sleep in Christ, to depart in peace and take a rest from their lifes journey in order to regather strength to enter heavenly places. The only reason I mention Ellen G white is because she popularized the soul sleep doctrine and what you sow you reap so to speak.
So the basic premise is that entering heaven is no easy task and requires a strong saint to be in the presence of the Lord, as even the prophets had a hard time being in the Lords presence.

[Molly]

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."

--J. Edgar Hoover



"People yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."

--David Rockefeller




"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

--George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788