Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 193190 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1250 on: December 09, 2012, 06:37:09 PM »
Immanuel: God With Us

Dec.24, 2011 byMichael Horton inGeneral, whitehorseinn.org


Christmas is a time for celebration, but it's also a time for sentimentality. It's a time for returning to the greatest story ever told, yet precisely because of its magnitude in our history, tall tales attach themselves to the divine drama like sea mussels to the hull of a ship. In this situation, "God With Us" can easily become little more than a salute from afar, the way we send loved ones off on a trip with, "God be with you!"

God's Tabernacle
We don't really understand the significance of "Immanuel: God With Us" unless we crawl inside the story of Israel. From the very beginning, God created the world for the purpose of dwelling in the midst of it, particularly in the midst of the people he created in his own image for covenantal fellowship. The Creator had completed his work and entered his everlasting rest of royal conquest, and now his image-bearer was to follow this pattern. The earthly temple-garden of Eden was but a copy of the heavenly sanctuary, yet no less than the holy place where God promised to meet his viceroy in blessing. After completing the mission for he was anointed as prophet, priest, and king, Adam would be given the right to eat from the sacramental Tree of Life—not only for himself and for Eve, but for his posterity. Leading the whole creation in his train, Adam would enter the heavenly sanctuary, participating in God's own everlasting Sabbath conquest, confirmed in everlasting righteousness and glory.

Of course, we know how it turned out. Instead of leading the parade to the finish line, Adam led a detour. Instead of listening to every word that comes from the mouth of God and embracing everlasting life by feeding on the sacramental Tree of Life, Adam demanded the food he craved. He sought an inner word that he could ratify by his own inner experience. Evicted from the temple, Adam and Eve were nevertheless given the surprising and wonderful announcement that Christmas was coming. With this gospel promise, a fissure was opened up in history for the progress of God's redemptive work leading to Christ. The story behind the story, from Genesis to Revelation, would be the war between the serpent and the seed of the woman.

The fall did not change the determination of the Triune God to dwell in the midst of his people. However, it did mean that as long as the people were guilty as covenant-breakers, God's dwelling in their midst could only be the most terrifying prospect. The mere advent of the Holy God in the midst of a sinful people would incinerate the camp. There's no going back to Eden, especially to the Tree of Life. In fact, the cherubim were posted there to bar re-entry; for if Adam and Eve had returned and eaten from that Tree, they (and their posterity) would have been confirmed in God's everlasting immortality, to be sure, but in a state of condemnation rather than righteousness.

So, understandably, when God calls his people to himself, the question arises, "Where can he be found in safety and peace rather than in danger and destruction?" This question doesn't automatically come to 3 out of 4 Americans. God's kind of like Santa. "He knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake," but the worst that can happen is that he passes you by on Christmas Eve. It's not, of course.

So Jews had a good reason to be a little concerned about God just showing up all unannounced. On one hand, they knew that they were nothing without God's presence—that was the whole point of the covenant. On the other hand, they knew that God's presence was not benign; it meant either unspeakable blessing or unimaginable destruction. So Moses took the risk, pleading with God to accompany his people on their journey from Sinai to Canaan after the golden calf episode; otherwise, how will the nations know that God had chosen, redeemed, and called them rather than liberating them from Egypt only to let them die in the desert as no-people? God acceded to Moses' intercession. However, knowing the sinful inclination of his people, God mercifully added that he would only pitch his tent outside the camp, with the priest entering the tabernacle on their behalf.

It's the delicate tension between this ultimate blessedness and ultimate danger of God dwelling in our midst that we observe throughout the biblical drama. The early Reformed theologian Wolfgang Musculus put a fine point on it: "So here we are, faced by terror of divine Majesty on one side and the need of our salvation on the other." Only in this context are we ready to understand the significance of the Temple.

With the Tabernacle, God condescends to maintain his presence on the edges of the camp. It's too dangerous to have God living in the neighborhood of sinners. But then there is also priestly mediation through the sacrificial system: the sacrifice's blood dripping from the horns of the ark of the covenant that housed the broken law. After Israel thoroughly violated the covenant, no longer serving as a beacon to the nations pointing them to the coming Messiah, the Spirit of Glory evacuated his sanctuary and the holy place became as common as a baseball park. Without God's presence, Israel was no longer a holy nation and the people were sent into exile by the covenant Lord himself. Once more, the cherabim sealed the gate to the sacramental Tree of Life.

Yet even in exile, God sent word through his prophets that he would keep history moving toward his Messiah in spite of his people's treason.

God With Us: A Blessing or a Curse?
In his remarkable book, Sinai and Zion, Jewish scholar Jon Levenson points out that Sinai—standing for the covenant that Israel swore under Moses as mediator—represents everything temporal and insecure, dependent on the people's obedience. However, "Zion represents the possibility of meaning above history, out of history, through an opening into the realm of the ideal." It is not outside of history; this heavenly, inviolable, and gracious covenant enters history. Nevertheless, it is not dependent on what people do and how history evolves under its own steam. Zion represents the promise that God will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

The Temple was the focal point of biblical faith. It was both Law and Gospel. As God's holy residence, it was a constant reminder of Israel's sinfulness, but it also provided the way of salvation through cleansing and forgiveness. As God had made perfectly clear to Moses, God's presence among his people was a dangerous thing, given who they were and who he is. But if the people, regardless of their sins, came by way of the washing and atonement he had provided on his holy hill, they could experience God's presence as good news rather than disaster: "God With Us" would be a blessing and not a curse. Levenson explains, "Jerusalem and, as we shall see, especially Mount Zion, are a sign that beneath and beyond the pain and chaos of the realm we call history, there is another realm, upheld by the indefectible promise of God. Dynasty and Temple, the house of David and house of God, function within the order of history, but are rooted in that other order of things." It's a zone protected from the ravages of "profane time."

Eden and "God's holy mountain" are correlated in Ezekiel 28:13-14. The connection to Eden in that passage drives home also the allusion to Adam in the mysterious fall of the king of Tyre. "The equation of Temple mount and paradise, then, did not begin with Ezekiel," says Levenson. For instance, it can be found in Psalm 36:8-10. "In short, the Temple is intimately associated with creation. It is, in a sense, the gateway to life as it was meant to be, unlimited by death, eternal life,…sacred time, always new, always just created." Levenson quotes the sages: "Both [heaven and earth] were created from Zion." So Zion takes on a cosmic, universal role that Sinai never did. Sinai represents a limited, provisional, national, and utterly conditional covenant that points to the everlasting promise but has no power to bring it about within history. The lampstand represents a cosmic tree atop a cosmic mountain, with branches reaches down, throughout the world, into the heavens above. "This tree was the central life-giving force for the entire creation (there is portrayal of such trees in Dan. 4; Ezek. 17; 19; 31)."

Yet here once again the deceiver lay in waiting, seducing the Israelites away from their God through the idolatry of their neighbors. "Like Adam, they broke the covenant" (Hos 6:7). "High places"—shrines established by religious whim to worship other gods—proliferated, including the sacrifices of firstborn children to Molech. Instead of being stairways to heaven, as many of their inscriptions advertised, they were actually gates to a hellish abyss. Like the avenging angel in the Passover, only this time striking the Israelites themselves, judgment moved steadily from Shiloh until it reached the Jerusalem Temple itself (Jer 7:11-12).

Israel and Judah were finally sent into exile, evicted like Adam and Eve, from the holy place of communion with God that they had corrupted. Evacuating the temple, the Glory-Spirit returned to the heavenly sanctuary, although he continued to keep the hope of the promise alive in the hearts of the captives in Babylon. In exile, God says, "yet I was a sanctuary for them a little while" (Ezek 11:16). In the end-time sanctuary, the Spirit will be present again: Hag 2:5; Zech 4:6-9—the latter an allusion to Ex 33:14-17, the Presence that goes with Israel. God promises "to make 'the latter glory of this house…greater than the former' (Hag 2:3-9)." In fact, Isaiah prophesies of the new temple, it will be beautiful (Is 60:1-20).

Although a remnant did eventually return to Jerusalem to rebuild its ruins, the people never experienced a sustained era of independence from foreign rule. Under Roman occupation, something occurred that was greater than the return of the Shekinah-Glory to the new temple under construction. "The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14).


The prophets had already been given a glimpse of this new world-wide temple "made without hands," especially in Ezekiel's vision (Ezek 43-46). Here, once and for all, forgiveness of sins would come to God's people "in one day" and the Spirit would fill all of them, making them witnesses to the ends of the earth. The typological sacrifices, rituals, and ceremonies of the temple would be fulfilled in the person and work of the messianic Son of David, who would unite in his person the offices of prophet, priest, and king.

So how can we climb Mount Zion? That becomes the key question of rabbinical theology after the remnant returned from exile, according to Levenson. Indeed, he adds, "For Jews, there is no greater voice than that of Sinai." Even after so clearly pointing out the sharp contrast between the unilateral promise of grace in the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants over against the conditional covenant of Sinai, Levenson maintains that that the messiah will come with "Israel's observance of the stipulations of Sinai…." The Sinai legacy, according to Levenson, rather than being the "schoolmaster" to lead us to Christ, is to be perpetually renewed by each generation. When the remnant returned from Babylon to rebuild Jerusalem, they saw themselves in exactly the same situation as their fathers at Mount Sinai, swearing the oath, "All this we will do." Levenson even notes that this is precisely where Judaism and the New Testament part ways: The former sees perpetual rededication to Sinai as the way to the resurrection of the righteous, while the latter sees the new covenant in Christ as rendering Sinai obsolete. "In fact, the Davidic theology is the origin of Jewish messianism and the christology of the church."

The Temple Made Flesh
John's Gospel begins with the eternal Word as God made flesh, pitching his tabernacle no longer outside the camp but in our midst. God would be with us, not only on the edges of the camp to avoid destroying his people in wrath, but "in our midst." God came to our neighborhood. He became one of us, in fact. The most amazing thing about the first Christmas is that nobody died. Sinners gathered to behold the glory of the Creator of heaven and earth and lived to tell about it.

Jesus identifies himself explicitly as the Temple (Mt 12:6, 39-42) and the Sabbath rest (Mt 11:28-30), dispensing forgiveness directly without the mediation of the temple system. In fact, such actions arouse the greatest ire of the religious leaders, both because he is draining the temple of its significance and, by replacing it, is making himself equal with God: "For who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mk 2:1-12; Lk 5:18-26). Jesus takes the old sanctuary with him into the grave and on the third day exits the greater exile in a greater exodus once and for all.

In Galatians 4, Paul refers to two mountains that are definitive in redemptive history, especially in the Psalter and the prophets: Mount Sinai and Mount Zion. This side of Christ's advent, however, these stand for the earthly Jerusalem in bondage as children of Hagar and the heavenly Jerusalem made up of the free children of Sarah. These represent "two covenants," says Paul, a covenant of law (Moses) and a covenant of promise (Abraham). With Israel's exile to Babylon as the curse for breaking the Mosaic covenant, the only hope for the future is the new covenant as the realization of the unilateral divine promise made to Abraham and David. This new covenant, says Jeremiah, will not be like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31).

Levenson is right: Both Judaism and Christianity depart from the expectation of a future restoration of the temple and its worship as a necessary prerequisite for its identity. Yet the difference is crucial: Judaism teaches that circumcision and personal dedication to Torah now replaces the Temple and its sacrificial system, while Christians believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the types and shadows of the law. Where Judaism has spiritualized and moralized the prophetic anticipation of a future Temple "made without hands," the gospel announces a materialization of that prophetic anticipation in the person and work of Jesus Christ. God is now truly "haveable." His presence is no longer a threat for all who dwell in the sacred precincts of the Holy of Holies, where Christ has entered with his own blood.

There is no going back to the shadows once the reality has appeared in the flesh. And that is good news for Jews as well as for the nations who stream into the Light that radiates from the Lamb. This means that there is not now and never will be any temple of God other than Christ and no holy land other than that which is within the sacred precincts of his body. In Christ, we are the people whom God has made a place—his place—forever. "The Word became flesh and pitched his tabernacle among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14).

Nor is there any going back to pagan Gentile philosophy, with its ethical or mystical ascent. And that is also good news, because, "There is no health in us." While we were trying to rise from our flesh to the realm of spirit, "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us."Only the God of majestic holiness and wrath can be found when we look within ourselves. Jesus is not "God Within Us," but "God With Us." And this too is good news, because we need a safe meeting place, an Axis Mundi where we are assured of meeting God in peace and blessing rather than in judgment and disaster.


For you have not come to a mountain that may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the command that was given, 'If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.' Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, 'I tremble with fear.' But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel…Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:18-24, 28-29).

Christ by highest heav'n adored

Christ the everlasting Lord!

Late in time behold Him come

Offspring of a Virgin's womb

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see

Hail the incarnate Deity

Pleased as man with man to dwell

Jesus, our Emmanuel

Hark! The herald angels sing

"Glory to the newborn King!"





Hark the Herald Angels Sing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbdvo019mgM
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 06:57:02 PM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1251 on: December 09, 2012, 08:41:16 PM »
I did a little looking.  One fellow made some (what I considered) rather silly arguments for pre-trib, but did come up with the following that could use some critiquing;

from raptureready - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming."  - end quote

Molly, I'm curious what you ended up thinking about this guy's argument.  He's (rightly or wrongly) pointing out 2 separate events.  I'm not sure how they fit together, or if they're different or really separate.   :dontknow:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1252 on: December 10, 2012, 06:07:01 AM »
I did a little looking.  One fellow made some (what I considered) rather silly arguments for pre-trib, but did come up with the following that could use some critiquing;

from raptureready - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming."  - end quote

Molly, I'm curious what you ended up thinking about this guy's argument.  He's (rightly or wrongly) pointing out 2 separate events.  I'm not sure how they fit together, or if they're different or really separate.   :dontknow:
Did you give a link for me to read?  I went looking and couldn't find it.

As I said above, I cannot find or justify two events, nor a secret rapture, nor a pretrib rapture.   I see where he says he will protect the church of Philadelphia [brotherly love] from the tribulation, but it doesn't say he will remove them from the earth during it.  And, tnat still leaves 6 other churches that are falling short in one way or another, and he doesn't say he will protect them.  [I think we ought to figure out what the church of Philadelphia is doing right.  :laughing7:]

So it still sounds to me that for 3.5 years the whole world will be tried [with focus on Jacob's trouble] and then Christ will return.  But, for the church of Philadelphia, those not appointed to wrath,

"Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity."
 (Isaiah 26:20-21).



For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.  Psa 27:5



He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.


--Psa 91

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1253 on: December 10, 2012, 06:26:55 AM »
No link, like I said, I considered most of it speculation, with little to no solid scriptural evidence presented.  The main thing that caught my attention was, he's saying we're told we can't know the day nor hour [of something - catching away, or return], while on the other hand we have an "exact" time frame given (per him), the 1260 days [of something - catching away, or return].  So I see him saying how can it just be one event, if we have both "can't know the time" and "here's a specific time".  So he's saying there must be a pre-trib rapture and a return.  Maybe he's just doing more reaching and speculating, without really solid evidence.  Like I said, it just sort of caught my attention, and I wondered about the equation he's presenting.

I hear you, and I've got some things bouncing around in my head about protection during tribulation, and how/who that might look like.  Guesses and speculation on my part. lol
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 07:00:00 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1254 on: December 10, 2012, 07:56:12 AM »
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

--Mat 24:35-36





Ok, regarding no man knows the day or the hour when these things will happen--

Some people argue that we are just to be blindsided by the return of Christ because of this statement.  That hardly makes sense to me, given that the Bible and Jesus himself gives us so many signs to look for in such great detail. 

Others argue that no man knows the day or the hour is a direct reference to Tabernacles which begins on the new moon.  The priests go to the top of the Temple to watch for the appearing of the new moon over a 48 hour period to start Tabernacles.  That's why Jesus says no one knows the day or the hour, just like the priest doesn't know the day or the hour for the beginning of Tabernacles because he doesn't know exactly when the crescent moon will appear.

It could also be as simple as he didn't want to say, ok ok Dec 21, 2012, and have everyone go to sleep for 2000 years.  :laugh:

But, I personally think we can look for dates based on study and reasoning and if we are wrong, what have we lost?  I enjoy looking forward to a date when I think the Lord is going to return and I have one in my head right now.   If the date comes and goes, I'll just go back to the drawing board.  He says himself that we are to be the children of the light, and if we are not watching he will come like a thief in the night.  There is also the story about the foolish virgins who were not prepared for the groom's arrival.





"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

--Mark 13:31



So when the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, "Lord, has the time come for you to free Israel and restore our kingdom?"
He replied, "The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know.

--Act 1:6,8


Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1255 on: December 10, 2012, 08:11:42 AM »
Here's another one many use to support their belief of a pre-trib rapture;


American King James Version
Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Some commentators explain that as regarding the coming judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD;

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
To stand before the Son of man - These approaching calamities are represented as the "coming of the Son of man" to judge Jerusalem for its crimes. Its inhabitants were so wicked that they were not worthy to stand before him and would be condemned, and the city would be overthrown. To "stand before him" here denotes approbation, acquittal, favor, and is equivalent to saying that "they" would be free from these calamities, while they should come upon others. See Romans 14:4; Psalm 1:5; Psalm 130:3; Revelation 6:17. Perhaps, also, there is a reference here to the day of judgment. See the notes at Matthew 24.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

That shall come to pass - That is, the tribulations which are on their way to overwhelm and destroy the Jewish people. These are sufficiently stated in the preceding verses.

To stand before the Son of man - To be acquitted, and to be condemned, are expressed, in Romans 14:4, by standing and falling. Those who were faithful to the grace they had received were not only not destroyed in the destruction of Jerusalem, but became heralds of the grace and mercy of God to the nations. Thus they were counted worthy to stand before the Son of man - to minister salvation in his name.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1256 on: December 10, 2012, 08:22:50 AM »
well, ok, but, Jesus did not return in 70 ad and set up his kingdom with Jerusalem as the capital.  [I'm being literal here].  So 70 ad is really about 'that which is becoming obsolete will fade away.'  Jesus made an actual, literal prophecy about the Temple and how not one stone would be left standing on another, and I think that takes care of 70 ad.

I have all these verses which say 'after the tribulation' of those days, Jesus will return.

I'm not sure how much one can negotiate that.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1257 on: December 10, 2012, 08:32:32 AM »
I have all these verses which say 'after the tribulation' of those days, Jesus will return.


That sounds pretty solid alright.  I don't have those verses right now.  I think I'll do a search on "after the tribulation" and look at the context(s) and see if they're all the same, or if there are any variations of context (maybe you already know).  I'd guess even if some appear to be talking about 70AD, there are others that appear to be addressing the Day of the Lord.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1258 on: December 10, 2012, 08:39:52 AM »
Holy smokes.  I had no idea so many Bible commentators took such a historical view.  I checked out this scrip Mt. 24:29 just by picking it up in a Google search of "after the tribulation", on bible.cc -


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


American King James Version
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
 The word rendered "immediately" - εὐθέως eutheōs - means, properly, "straightway, immediately," Matthew 8:3; Matthew 13:5; Mark 1:31; Acts 12:10; then "shortly," 3 John 1:14. This is the meaning here. Such events would "shortly" or "soon" occur In the fulfillment of the predictions they would be "the next in order," and would occur "before long." The term here requires us to admit that, in order to the fulfillment of the prophecy, it can be shown, or it actually happened, that things "did" soon occur "after the tribulation of those days" which would be "properly represented or described" by the images which the Saviour employs. It is not necessary to show that there could not have been "a more remote" reference to events lying far in the future, in which there would be a more complete fulfillment or "filling up" of the meaning of the words (compare the notes at Matthew 1:22-23); but it is necessary that there should have been events which would be "properly expressed" by the language which the Saviour uses, or which would have been in some proper sense "fulfilled," even if there had not been reference to more remote events. It will be seen in the exposition that this was actually the case, and that therefore there was a propriety in saying that these events would occur "immediately" - that is, "soon, or the next in order." Compare the notes at Revelation 1:1.

Shall the sun be darkened ... - The images used here are not to be taken literally. They are often employed by the sacred writers to denote "any great calamities." As the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars, would be an inexpressible calamity, so any great catastrophe - any overturning of kingdoms or cities, or dethroning of kings and princes is represented by the darkening of the sun and moon, and by some terrible convulsion in the elements. Thus the destruction of Babylon is foretold in similar terms Isaiah 13:10, and of Tyre Isaiah 24:23. The slaughter in Bozrah and Idumea is predicted in the same language, Isaiah 34:4. See also Isaiah 50:3; Isaiah 60:19-20; Ezekiel 32:7; Joel 3:15. To the description in Matthew, Luke has added Luke 21:25-26, "And upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; people's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." All these are figures of great and terrible calamities. The roaring of the waves of the sea denotes great tumult and affliction among the people. "Perplexity" means doubt, anxiety; not knowing what to do to escape. "Men's hearts should fail them for fear," or by reason of fear. Their fears would be so great as to take away their courage and strength.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened - brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8, etc." Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens: -

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 13:10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30, Joel 2:31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth - darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times. The heathens have marked this

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, Matthew 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.. Shall the sun be darkened: not in a literal but in a figurative sense...

----------------------------
Will look at others.   :mshock:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 08:46:43 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1259 on: December 10, 2012, 09:04:37 AM »
It's not 'immediately,'  It's immediately after those days, the days he has just spend all of Mat 24 describing.

What are they saying, that Christ already returned with ten thousands of his saints in power and great glory---we just can't tell?

well, if that was it...I'm disappointed.  :btantrum:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1260 on: December 10, 2012, 09:12:07 AM »
 :laugh:  I know what you mean. 

I'm gonna have to dig into this a little more!  :wacko2:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1261 on: December 10, 2012, 09:40:46 AM »
These guys say all the stones were not thrown down, so all could not have been fulfilled except Christ's return.

http://www.jesus-messiah.com/prophecy/not-one-stone.html
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1262 on: December 10, 2012, 10:47:26 AM »
These guys say all the stones were not thrown down, so all could not have been fulfilled except Christ's return.

http://www.jesus-messiah.com/prophecy/not-one-stone.html

This is an interesting list. I don't agree with most of this.




What do Preterist believe?


The Law did not end at Calvary but in 70AD
Salvation was a mixture of Law and Grace until 70AD
The time of the Gentiles did not begin until 70AD
We have no New Testament it was all fulfilled except Revelation chapters 20, 21, and 22, by 70AD
The Joel prophecy and Holy Ghost outpouring ended in 70AD
Acts 2:38 plan of faith and grace salvation ended in 70AD
All the epistles were for those to be raptured or resurrected in 70AD
The Gospel the Apostles and Paul preached prior to 70AD is not the plan of salvation "after" 70AD
Those before 70AD were in the Kingdom but the Kingdom ceased in 70AD
Those who were not ready in 70AD had a second chance after the secret rapture
The Gentile Church began in 70AD
The Apostles and all the early saints were raptured or resurrected in 70AD
The second coming of Jesus was spiritual and occurred in 70AD
To endure until the end in Matthew 24:13 is to endure until 70AD
The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is already past
There is no future antichrist or false prophet who certifies him
There is no mark of the beast, the mark is just the mark(s) of sin
There is no future tribulation
There are no future events in the seals, trumpets, or vials
The sun will not turn dark or the moon turn into blood
All prophecies contain "idioms" that need kabbalistic interpretation
There is no future pre, mid, pre-wrath, or post tribulation rapture.
There is no millennial. The millennial is not 1,000 actual years but is identical with the church age
All that remains is the next coming of Jesus followed by the judgment

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1263 on: December 10, 2012, 01:49:48 PM »
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1264 on: December 10, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:

There are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

The "Partial Pretrerists" are found within the ranks of those usually labeling themselves "Dispensationalists". These are those who generally give Israel it's due place in events leading up to the founding of the Jewish State in 1948.

The "Partial Preterists" could also be labeled as "Partial Dispensationalists".

The final category could be labeled "Purist Dispensationalism". These are those who make sharp distinctions of scripture with regard to promises made only to Israel & promises that pertain only to the Body of Christ. Partial Preterists/Dispensationalists blur the sharp distinctions made by the purists of those within the ranks of dispensationalism, in other words they mix the language of promises made to Israelite saints with promises made to Body of Christ saints.

I looked at the RaptureReady site & at Rev 3:10 & the comment the editor made, it's the "preterist" position.  It's a "preterist" position because he believes the Pope's position that the "seven churches" are seven ages of the Christian Church.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1265 on: December 10, 2012, 07:01:06 PM »
Remember, I've told you all this beforehand.

Listen! I've told you this before it happens.

--Matthew 24:25



But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

--Mat 24:13

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1266 on: December 10, 2012, 07:20:10 PM »
Quote from: Paul
There are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

So what do they say we are in now?

Some kind of post-millenial haze?

Or maybe this is the lake of fire?   :mshock:

No wonder everyone's on drugs.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1267 on: December 10, 2012, 07:42:40 PM »
It is so easy for us to label people that way we can determine.
Who they are.
We can say they are wrong.
They don't agree with me.
I don't agree with them.
I am not going to say they are wrong.

Now we are making straw men out of crack pipes
   

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1268 on: December 10, 2012, 07:44:46 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146048#msg146048 date=1355160010]
Quote from: Paul
There are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

Quote
So what do they say we are in now?

......that we are in a judgement period.

Quote
Some kind of post-millenial haze?

........so it seems.

Quote
Or maybe this is the lake of fire?

........there are those who actually believe this.


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1269 on: December 10, 2012, 08:02:34 PM »
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:

Yes, but we do know that two of the three positions are wrong because they cannot include ALL the scripture within their position. UR does that and is IMO a foundation doctrine, or elementary principle of the oracles of God (Hebrews 5:11-15 & 6:1-6).

Eschatology is a little different because it deals with events in play and prophesies not yet clearly defined. The only Preterists I feel are actually heretical are those who teach there is no physical resurrection, a teaching that rejects the foundation doctrine, or elementary principle, of the resurrection of the dead as taught by the jesus and the apostles.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1270 on: December 10, 2012, 08:03:43 PM »
Of course, I am a radical that believes the whole western denominational church is heretical :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1271 on: December 10, 2012, 08:45:59 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146048#msg146048 date=1355160010]
Quote from: Paul
There are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

Quote
So what do they say we are in now?

......that we are in a judgement period.

Quote
Some kind of post-millenial haze?

........so it seems.

Quote
Or maybe this is the lake of fire?

........there are those who actually believe this.

It's good to know where people stand.

But that's just plain....spooky...

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1272 on: December 10, 2012, 11:41:24 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146048#msg146048 date=1355160010]
Quote from: Paul
There are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

Quote
So what do they say we are in now?

......that we are in a judgement period.

Quote
Some kind of post-millenial haze?

........so it seems.

Quote
Or maybe this is the lake of fire?

........there are those who actually believe this.

It's good to know where people stand.

But that's just plain....spooky...

It's just as spooky that a preacher can talk 900 followers into drinking arsenic laced kool-aid in the jungles of Guyana, and another church leader can talk heads of governments into murdering hundreds of thousands non-catholics in the middle ages, or another head of state murders 6 million Jews in the 20th century while the "church fathers" sit by silent & maybe even approving of it.

Wait'll you see what's coming next if you want to witness spookiness, no one will care about the tenets of the preterist or dispensationalist teachings by the time the 21st century is concluded, the planet will by then have become such a nightmare to live in it'll be hard to imagine how people will cling to their sanity.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1273 on: December 10, 2012, 11:47:08 PM »
8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

--Mat 24



And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold.

--Mat 24:12



 "People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of religion but denying its power. Avoid them!"-- (2 Tim 3:2-5)




9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.--Mat 24



13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

--Mat 24



10 "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.
--Rev 3



"persevere"

G5281
υπομονή
hupomonē
hoop-om-on-ay'
From G5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).




"endure"

G5278
υπομένω
hupomenō
hoop-om-en'-o
From G5259 and G3306; to stay under (behind), that is, remain; figuratively to undergo, that is, bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere: - abide, endure, (take) patient (-ly), suffer, tarry behind.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 11:56:57 PM by Molly »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1274 on: December 11, 2012, 12:03:57 AM »
Before I was UR, I was a preterist. (This is not to say you can't be preterist and UR- you can. I spent a lot of time reading material and books and articles about prophecy and preterism.
One day, the Lord said, (in my mind) "What are you doing? You're spending a lot of time on stuff that is not of primary importance. You're living in the future and you can only love in the now."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"