Prophecy

[jabcat]

I was reading about the tribulation.  There were a couple of interesting comments, including some guy pointing out the following which had never fully registered with me before..what to make of this?

Rev. 1:9   I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos...

[Molly]

Elijah will return to prepare the way for Jesus.  He will return at the beginning of the 3.5 years.  This will be his message:


For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

--Mal 4



"Remember the  law of Moses my servant."  Remember the Torah.  That will be Elijah's message to God's people.

Elijah will come to restore all things in preparation for the return of the Lord.



10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

--Mat 17



Restoring something is bringing it back to what it was originally.



21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

--Isa 42



We are a destroyed people.  Elijah will preach on this for 3.5 years.

12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

--Isa 58



The repairer of the breach between man and God.  The restorer of paths to dwell in.



We are to learn to  walk in the path of the Torah, restored in preparation for the return of the Lord.

23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: --Prov 6



Elijah will preach for 3.5 years to restore the remnant and repair the breach.



34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

--Psa 119

[Molly]

I was reading about the tribulation.  There were a couple of interesting comments, including some guy pointing out the following which had never fully registered with me before..what to make of this?

Rev. 1:9   I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos...

I think-- it is like Paul saying I am your father.  I think--that these great saints could see the future and labored greatly to give birth to our generation and to labor with us in the birth pains for the next.

I think--that they are with us now, cheering us on.


Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

--Heb 12:1, 2

[Molly]

Abbas 'Victory Speech': Jerusalem 'Eternal Capital of Palestine'

PA Chairman promises that someday the PA flag will fly over "Jerusalem, eternal capital of the state of Palestine."

First  Publish: 12/2/2012, 2:58 PM

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162753





Daniel 11:39: Thus shall he [Antichrist] do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.



Revelation 11:1,2
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [3.5 years]




13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

--Eze 38



Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

[Molly]

Interesting thing about these folks that declare Jerusalem their eternal capital.  How much can they care for the city when they just did their best to decimate it with rockets?

They are like the mother who wanted to cut the baby in half instead of giving up her claim to a child that was not hers.

[goodreport]

Abbas 'Victory Speech': Jerusalem 'Eternal Capital of Palestine'

PA Chairman promises that someday the PA flag will fly over "Jerusalem, eternal capital of the state of Palestine."

First  Publish: 12/2/2012, 2:58 PM

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162753





Daniel 11:39: Thus shall he [Antichrist] do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.



Revelation 11:1,2
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [3.5 years]




13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

--Eze 38



Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Thanks for the current events update: I'm very interested in all the current events, especially those involving Israel.  Also thanks for the Scriptures especially Rev 11:1,2, ... I was just looking at some Scriptures that mention Gentiles... 

[Paul L]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24

I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
 shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!

Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being similar or dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?

The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.

[Molly]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24

I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
 shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!

Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being similar or dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?

The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--Mat 24



So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!"  --Lk 21:28



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

--1 Cor 15



7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

--Rev 10



The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

--Rev 11:15




13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
 
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
 
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

--1 Thess 4




29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--Mat 24




24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
 
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
 
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
 
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

--Mark 13




so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

--Heb 9:28





All the same event.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA

[dajomaco]

Interesting thing about these folks that declare Jerusalem their eternal capital.  How much can they care for the city when they just did their best to decimate it with rockets?

They are like the mother who wanted to cut the baby in half instead of giving up her claim to a child that was not hers.

Molly who is the true Mother willing to give Jerusalem away.

[sheila]

 Daj..I think Jerusalem Above......the children of Isreal were sent away to Babylon for discipline..Isreal

  and Babylon were both behaving as harlots at that time. Natural children were given over to the harlot..

  so that theeternal spiritual child's life could be saved/repentance/grace/restoration  Spare the rod

  spoil the child.  Proverbs has a lot to say about the rod of discipline.

   JUDGEMENT THEN RESTORATION

  Ezekiel 20;37  As I judged your fathers in the desert in the land of Egypt,so I will judge you,declares

  the Sovereign Lord.  I WILL TAKE NOTE OF YOU AS YOU PASS UNDER MY ROD,AND I WILL BRING YOU

  INTO THE BOND OF THE COVENANT.  I WILL PURGE YOU OF THOSE WHO REBEL AND REVOLT AGAINST

  ME[SATAN AND DEMONS]EVIL SPIRIT CONTRAST..

 ALTHOUGH I WILL BRING THEM OUT OF THE LAND THEY ARE LIVING IN[RESURRECTION OF THE

 WICKED/SERPENT PLAGUE IN THE DESERT]

 YET THEY WILL NOT ENTER THE LAND OF ISREAL  THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.


........I WILL ACCEPT YOU AS FRAGRANT INCENSE WHEN I BRING YOU OUT FROM THE NATIONS AND GATHER

 YOU FROM THE COUNTRIES WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN SCATTERED..............

........YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD WHEN I DEAL WITH YOU FOR MY NAME'S SAKE AND NOT

  ACCORDING TO YOUR EVIL WAYS  AND YOUR CORRUPT PRACTICES[BRAZEN SERPENT ON A POLE]


  SEEMS FATHER GIVES OVER TO ANOTHER TO SAVE SONS FROM ETERNAL DESTRUCTION ALSO

[Paul L]

author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145892#msg145892 date=1354807810]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24

I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
 shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!

Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being similar or dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?

The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24

So, Christ himself will not be doing the gathering, Christ sends the angels to do that job. Do you know why? Follow next paragraph.........

In 1 Thess 4:16-17, the contrasting description of Christ snatching away the Body of Christ is: "for the Lord himself will descend....."......"and the dead in Christ shall rise first....". There are no angels on the job here & do you know why? Because only Christ can raise the dead, angels are not given that power, they are only gathering flesh & blood remnants of the tribulation which is the reason why there is no resurrection spoken of or even alluded to in all of Matt 24.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.--1 Cor 15

Lots of trumpets up there in heaven I'm quite sure, with many having been blown at numerous different points in time, past & future. The sounding of a trumpet in one passage of Holy Writ does not need to conform to some humanly devised criteria that it must be the same as all the other references to the sounding of a trumpet mentioned elsewhere in the pages of Holy Writ, not all trumpet sounds are the same, some are silver others are rams horn. God can sound any & all trumpets in his possession at any point in time he chooses. God knows better how to pick & choose his fanfare of music.

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,[/b] and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."[/i]--Rev 11:15

Again, not all trumpets need to be the same trumpet call, God has sole discretion when he chooses for a trumpet to be blown.

Complete absence of any reference to a resurrection here. Did you think this is somehow connected to 1Thess 4 or Cor 15? If so, where is there mention of a resurrection in Rev 11:15?  None.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And the reason Christ himself must descend, as opposed to sending angels to "gather" only, is because only Christ has the power to raise the dead, angels do not, therefore they are not charged with the job, and not all trumpets need to be the same trumpet call for a single event.
 

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24

......and notice, no resurrection. Again why? Because angels are charged with the gathering of the elect remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation. Christ himself is not in the picture because there is no resurrection of "elect" at this moment in time. Instead Christ "shall send his angels" to "gather" only, no resurrection in the context or otherwise alluded to.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation,

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.--Mark 13

.......Christ sending out more angel gatherings, but no mention of a resurrection, because angels are impotent at raising the dead.

The Body of Christ doesn't have an angel gathering as spoken of by the Apostle Paul, because only Christ himslf can make the dead "rise".


I have been unable to locate a single passage where "gather" and "rise"/ "resurrect" are used interchangeably or where "gather" appears with either "rise" or "resurrect".

Different descriptions, therefore different events.

[Molly]

The trump of God IS Christ's voice. 

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,"

--Rev 1


But the dead in Christ are with him when he returns.  They are the clouds [of witnesses] he arrives with.    He is just raising their bodies.

so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.--1Thess 4



26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.--Mark 13


14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

---Jude 1



It's all the same event: the second coming of Christ.




11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
 
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
 
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
 
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

--Rev 19



Jesus is the LORD of Hosts.  He is Almighty God, also known as El Shaddai in the Old Testament.

[sheila]

  Jesus is not El Shaddai..the many breasted one..  As the High Preist Jesus is entitled to the breast as His

  portion.  He is girded about the paps with a golden girlde..this girdle is 'a mere woman shall encompass

  a man." wisdoms army[the women declaring the Good news are a mighty army]. they are daughters of God

  and Jerusalem above....the rib portion crowns the heart[think crown rib roast]  and thus a capable

  wife is a crown unto her husband. [He is her head/heart..she does His will]   all glorious is the princess

   within her chamber[ribs/crown encircled Jesus heart] her gown is interwoven with gold.  The Royal

  bride is at His right hand in gold of Ophir[Mother Jerusalem Above].

  El-Shaddai is Jerusalem above and Christ's bride is her only daughter/New Jerusalem. Sexual roles

  are fixed eternally. There are sons and daughters of God.  So Jesus Christ is not the many breasted one

 but is girded about the paps/breasts of heaven with a golden girdle.  As kinsman redeemer of Adam's

   offspring..God gave Him them as the breast portion to nurture/teach the little children.  they are the 'help-meet

   they are ONE with Him...so technically you can say they are Christ,and that He is the many breasted one


Psalms 45 the wedding song.'Gird your sword upon your side,O Mighty One,clothe yourself with splendor

 and majesty. In your majesty ride forth victoriously,in behalf of truth humility and righteousness.Let your

  right hand display awesome deeds[royal bride at right hand]. Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts

  of the Kings enemies,let the nations fall beneath your feet..

   the Shulamite rejoices in her maturity because her breasts are towers[God is in her citadels,He has

  shown Himself to be her fortress}.When the kings joined forces,when they advanced togather...

   they saw her and were astounded...they fled in terror.....as we have heard..so we have seen...

   in the city of the Lord Almighty,in the city of our God;GOD MAKES HER SECURE FOREVER.

   Rev 14...144,000..standing on Mt Zion...these are chief commanders in  Wisdom's[from above] Army

   they teach men and women on earth/gotta love that bosom position]

   there are 12 pairs of ribs[12x12=144]   Twelve foundations in Holy city..the little one shall become 1000

  these are the cheif commanders only...they have many many in-numerable that serve under their command

...Heavenly Host's...Holy ghosts are God's hosts   

[Molly]

However you want to process it:


Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


"Almighty"
H7706
שׁדּי
shadday
shad-dah'ee
From H7703; the Almighty: - Almighty.


"God"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."


(1 Peter 5:10) "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."



El Shaddai [God Almighty] is the name by which the fathers knew the God of the Old Testament, YHWH.

YHWH tells Moses this.



3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

--Ex 6:3



(Deuteronomy 32:1-4) "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he."




and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.

--1 Cor 10:14



(Jude 1:24-25) "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuXB1a3NBCw

[dajomaco]

Interesting thing about these folks that declare Jerusalem their eternal capital.  How much can they care for the city when they just did their best to decimate it with rockets?

They are like the mother who wanted to cut the baby in half instead of giving up her claim to a child that was not hers.

Molly who is the true Mother willing to give Jerusalem away.

I would be willing to give Jerusalem away .
If these folks were my children.

[dajomaco]

Although we could have been a burden as Christ's apostles,
instead we were gentle among you,
as a nursing mother nurtures her own children.

[Molly]

So--Although I would like to see a pre-tribulation rapture, I just can't find it in the scriptures.

If anyone can, please make your case.

:Luke 21--and Mat 24--no pretrib rapture.


Jesus returns after the tribulation.


"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24).


"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:25-28).


Mark 13 Agrees.  Lots of tribulation and no Jesus appearing for rapture.  Instead, false christs and false prophets.


For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand (Mark 13:3-23).


"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven (Mark 13:24-27).


And, Jesus makes it clear that there will be no secret rapture.  Everyone will see him when he returns.


Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be...Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt 24:26-27,30).


Also, the only church that is guaranteed protection from the tribulation seems to be the church of Philadephia:

 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

--Rev 3



Only one out of 7 church types is protected.  That means the rest of the church is in apostasy and will be tried.  But, to those who love him and follow his commandments, he says

"Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." (Isaiah 26:20-21).

[jabcat]

I did a little looking.  One fellow made some (what I considered) rather silly arguments for pre-trib, but did come up with the following that could use some critiquing;

from raptureready - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming."  - end quote

[Molly]

Jab, Revelation 3:10 is his message to the church of Philadelphia, which I mentioned in my post above as the one church that he would protect through the tribulation [but not rapture out of it].  He seems to find fault which each of the other churches, although he gives them direction how they could repent.

What do you mean a known and an unknown date?

[jabcat]

Those are all his words... I'll go back in and make that more clear. 

I think he's saying since the return of Christ can be "exactly counted down and known", then that lends credence to his view of a pre-trib rapture, since "no man knows the day/hour".   So he's contending there must be 2 separate events.

[ded2daworld]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

[Molly]

Doesn't he tell us that everyone will be asleep in that day but we will be awake because we are children of the light?  Then BE children of the light, because if you walk in the light, you can see where you're going, and you won't stumble and fall.




  Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
 
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

--1 Thess 5




But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.-- (Mark 13)

[Paul L]

author=ded2daworld link=topic=10395.msg145947#msg145947 date=1354970681]

I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true?

True.....But what initiated this sudden change in thinking? Up until about 175 years ago, only the Latin Vulgate & King James versions were available for public reading. Then as the Revisers went about translating newly discovered Greek codices in the middle of the 19th century, they discovered numerous inconsistencies with the non-Greek based versions of the Latin Vulgate & King James. This lead to compilations of concordances providing Greek definitions of words that often have very different definitions in English, the end result of which we have Strong's Concordance today.

These issues sparked further investigations into other matters that had in the past been considered settled dogma. Once settled dogma (namely that of Preterism) was now coming under intense scrutiny as the western world's populations were on the precipice of becoming substantially literate cultures no longer held hostage to the whimsical fantasies of a small group of "church fathers". 

With this increase in literacy, more people were discovering that many things they were told about the Bible were in fact obvious discrepancies absent from the text. The pre-trib & post-trib descriptions of the coming(s) of Christ became one of the many discrepancies that could no longer be hidden. These of course had implications for the timeline(s) of resurrections present in some scriptures but absent in others, while supposedly referring to the same event; as by example previously posted by me just above.

Most of the post-trib groups are considered holdover Replacement Theology dogmatists, or those whose eschatological aspirations are more such than they care to openly admit. These are people who see the Christian Church anywhere the word "saint" or "elect" appear in the Bible.

.......are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.

What then was the purpose of the Ark? That didn't accomplish about the same thing? Being lifted high above the heads of the people who were becoming immersed in the waters below them. 

[Molly]

A prophecy against Damascus:


"See, Damascus will no longer be a city
    but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
    and left to flocks, which will lie down,
    with no one to make them afraid.

3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,  <----northern Israel
    and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
    like the glory of the Israelites,"
declares the Lord Almighty.
 

4 "In that day the glory of Jacob will fade;
    the fat of his body will waste away.
5 It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain,
    gathering the grain in their arms—
as when someone gleans heads of grain
    in the Valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet some gleanings will remain,
    as when an olive tree is beaten,
leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
    four or five on the fruitful boughs,"
declares the Lord, the God of Israel.
 

7 In that day people will look to their Maker
    and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
8 They will not look to the altars,
    the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles[a]
    and the incense altars their fingers have made.
 
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
 

10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
    you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
    and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
    and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
    in the day of disease and incurable pain.
 

12 Woe to the many nations that rage—
    they rage like the raging sea!
Woe to the peoples who roar—
    they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
    when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
    like tumbleweed before a gale.

14 In the evening, sudden terror!    <----Nuclear?
    Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
    the lot of those who plunder us.


--Isa 17

[Molly]

A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud     <---The Rider on the Clouds
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

2 "I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—   <----Civil War
brother will fight against brother,
neighbor against neighbor,
city against city,
kingdom against kingdom.
3 The Egyptians will lose heart,
and I will bring their plans to nothing;
they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
the mediums and the spiritists.
4 I will hand the Egyptians over
to the power of a cruel master,
and a fierce king will rule over them,"
declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.

5 The waters of the river will dry up,     <----Drought from the Two Witnesses?
and the riverbed will be parched and dry.
6 The canals will stink;
the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up.
The reeds and rushes will wither,    <----Famine
7 also the plants along the Nile,
at the mouth of the river.
Every sown field along the Nile
will become parched, will blow away and be no more.
8 The fishermen will groan and lament,
all who cast hooks into the Nile;
those who throw nets on the water
will pine away.
9 Those who work with combed flax will despair,   <---Economic Collapse
the weavers of fine linen will lose hope.
10 The workers in cloth will be dejected,
and all the wage earners will be sick at heart.

11 The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools;
the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice.
How can you say to Pharaoh,
"I am one of the wise men,
a disciple of the ancient kings"?

12 Where are your wise men now?
Let them show you and make known
what the Lord Almighty
has planned against Egypt.
13 The officials of Zoan have become fools,
the leaders of Memphis are deceived;
the cornerstones of her peoples
have led Egypt astray.
14 The Lord has poured into them
a spirit of dizziness;
they make Egypt stagger in all that she does,
as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.
15 There is nothing Egypt can do—
head or tail, palm branch or reed.

16 In that day the Egyptians will become weaklings. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the Lord Almighty raises against them. 17 And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the Lord Almighty is planning against them.

18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.

19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."

--Isa 19