Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 150549 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8820
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1150 on: November 25, 2012, 08:36:39 PM »

 IMO, in this age, there are only one kind of saints. Everyone who believes is "in Christ", Jew and Gentile.

The dividing wall is removed in Christ. The wild olive branches are grafted into ONE olive tree in Christ.


I agree with that.

IMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.

I'm not one who "breaks up the body of Christ".  As you say, one Lord, one baptism, and I'll add "one way to the Father".  I am one though that although not always very good at doing it, believes in being careful with the scriptures in terms of who was the primary audience when the Word was spoken, and then how is that intended for us today;  i.e., is it a primary application, or more so "spiritual application/examples for our learning"... saying it poorly, but I think you know what I'm getting at.   :2c:  I don't really think that's what you're alluding to in your post, but it made me think of it.  (There's probably more to "dispensationalism" than that..)
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Doug

  • Guest
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1151 on: November 27, 2012, 02:44:42 PM »

Quote
IMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.

Fair point.....but square this with Dan 9:24. Are all of us Daniel's people then? You want to break up "dispensational theories", so who are Daniel's people here upon whom the 70 weeks are conferred? Body of Christ saints? Israelite saints?

In his prayer in chapter 9 Daniel says, "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us." [vs. 16]

He mentions Jerusalem, thy holy mountain, our fathers, and "thy people" and elsewhere in ch. 7 he refers to "the saints." I will focus here on "thy holy mountain." In Isaiah 2:2, the mountain of the Lord's house is to be established in the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills, and all nations flow to it. I suggest Jesus represented the holy mountain. He is also referred to as the "foundation" laid in Zion, Isaiah 28:16, and precious corner stone, the stone that the builders rejected, etc. In Daniel 2:35-45 Jesus is represented by a stone cut without hands, that smashes the image on its feet, and destroys it. The stone grows into a mountain that fills the earth. The "holy mountain" is clearly a metaphor and a symbol of Christ and his kingdom, the church, as the legs and feet of the image represent the Roman Empire.

Isaiah 2:2, which is a prophecy concerning mount Zion and Jerusalem, shows the continuity of OT Jerusalem, and the church, the heavenly Jerusalem. When Jesus ascended to heaven, Isaiah 2:2 was fulfilled, and Jerusalem became a heavenly city. Paul said that believers are raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Eph. 2:6. The city of Jerusalem is in heaven, Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22, Rev. 21:10ff.

Daniel's people, then are the saints of both the Old and New Testaments. The prophets are the foundation of the church, together with the apostles, Eph. 2:20.

Dispensationalism fails to recognize that Isaiah 2:2 applies to Christ and his church, and that this prophecy was fulfilled. The dispensationalists have a mantra of literalism, and appeal to literalism to support their claim that the church is not found in Old Testament prophecy, but this "literal" approach is quickly abandoned, whenever there is a chance to exult the Jews in an earthly kingdom where they are doted on by Gentiles, as suggested in their interpretation of Isaiah 2:2.

The literal approach says that mount Zion is exulted tectonically, and becomes the highest mountain in the world. A tectonic uplift of Jerusalem is also depicted in Zechariah 14:10 if this is taken literally. But of course such ideas are absurd. And consider John's message, "every mountain and hill shall be made low." The prophecies contradict. One says mount Zion is to be the highest mountain in the world, the other says every mountain will be made low. The dilemma is resolved when the mountains are interpreted as symbols of God's promises, as we see in Genesis 49:26. Jacob said his blessings extended "to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The association of his blessings with mountains, and everlasting ones, alludes to their lofty spiritual nature, and their eternal duration. Thus, mountains are symbols of the promises of the Gospel.

One of the foremost of these promises is the coming of a Savior, so Christ is represented by a mountain. He is the foundation laid in Zion, the precious corner stone. So mount Zion is the name of the mountain which represents Christ. Was this mountain made low? When Jesus was crucified and buried, he was indeed "made low." But afterwards, when he was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, he was established in the top of the mountains, in the throne of his Father, and made Lord of all, and was given the eternal throne of David which he was to receive, as king of his saints in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Now, in the New Testament, the church is represented by Jerusalem, the heavenly city, and Jerusalem was raised up when Christ ascended to heaven. So the "saints" of Daniel's prophecies are the people of Israel, up until the time of Pentecost, when Jesus was "made Christ." Then the apostles preached the good news to the Jews, and Peter cited the law of Moses, about a prophet who was to come, and said:

Acts 3:19-24
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Verse 23 says those Jews who do not believe the Gospel are "destroyed from among the people," and so are no longer Jews, or Israel, but as Paul said, in Romans 9:6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." They are cut off from the promises, which are obtained only through Christ.

Isaiah 2:2 is a key scripture which shows the continuity of OT Israel and the Christian church. The dispensationalists are blind to it; their theory is a man made doctrine, destroyed by the prophecy of Isaiah, itself a "mountain." As Ezekiel said, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel." [Ezek. 39:4] These mountains are symbols of promises, and blessings, and prophecies of God's word.

Doug


« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 03:56:46 PM by Doug »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1152 on: November 27, 2012, 06:50:39 PM »
Daniel's timeline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czHNJHmkgr0



I highly recommend this two hour video.  He's done an incredible job of piecing things together, and gives the dates for the start of the Great Tribulation [last 3.5 years] and the return of Jesus.

I am in pretty much total agreement with his timeline and his rationale for it.




And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

--Luke 21:28

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1153 on: November 28, 2012, 01:16:59 AM »
JOEL RICHARDSON: The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus

September 29, 2012 By daltonthomas Leave a Comment


[Source] The Book of Revelation, chapter 19, contains what is perhaps the most famous Biblical passage concerning the return of Jesus. There, Jesus the Messiah is seen to burst forth from heaven, riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven following Him. But as powerful and well known as this prophetic portrayal of the return of Jesus is, few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus. In fact, it can be said that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is in fact, the Armageddon of the Old Testament.
 
Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this. But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
 
That's right, Ezekiel reveals that at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
 

"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20
 
According to this text, the Lord Himself says that throughout the earth, both people and animals will "quake at [His] presence." The word used for presence here is the Hebrew word paneh. Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel (see also: Zechariah 14:2-5, Isaiah 29:2-8, Revelation 16:16-20).
 
Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person." Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:
 

"So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face [paneh] to face [paneh], and yet my life has been delivered'" —Genesis 32:30
 
It is also interesting to note that in place of the Hebrew paneh, the Septuagint used the Greek word prosopon. Prosopon is one of two words commonly used in the New Testament to refer to actual presence. The other word is parousia, which is commonly associated with the Second Coming. To convey actual presence, betweenparousia and prosopon, prosopon is the more powerful term. While parousia most often implies coming, prosopon implies actual face-to-face presence. As Jesus is coming on the clouds, this is His parousia, but once He has actually arrived, then the word prosopon is used.
 
An excellent example of the New Testament usage of prosopon is a scene where the righteous are actually looking upon the face of God in the eternal city:
 

"No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face [prosopon], and his name will be on their foreheads" —Revelation 22:4
 
Ezekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
 
The Holy One in Israel
 
Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
 

"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." — Ezekiel 39:7
 
This is the only time that the phrase "the LORD, the Holy One in Israel" is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra'el. A similar phrase, "the Holy One of Israel" (qadowsh Yisra'el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
 
Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. Apologist Dave Hunt for instance has stated:
 

"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
 
Hunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
 
If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah. And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1154 on: November 28, 2012, 03:21:41 AM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145329#msg145329 date=1354058219]
JOEL RICHARDSON: The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus

Quote
.......few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus.

Read the text: Rev 20:7-8

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog & Magog , to gather them together.....and compassed.....the beloved city" (Jerusalem).

Christ had been in the city of Jerusalem for a thousand years by the time Gog & Magog attempts their invasion.
 
Quote
Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this.

Quite right.....

 
Quote
But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
IMO,
This is for sure , he'd been there for 1000 years by the time Gog & Magog show up. Rev 20:7-8
 
Quote
..... at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:

Yep, he'd already been there for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8
 

Quote
Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel


That's correct, he'd been present in the land for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8.
 
Quote
Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person." Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:

Absolutely correct, Christ had been "paneh" for 1000 years by the time Gog & Magog show up, Rev 20:7-8
 
Quote
Ezekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.

And he'd been present there for a thousand years, Rev 20:7-8
 
 
Quote
Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
 
"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." — Ezekiel 39:7
 
........ the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.

In light of Rev 20:7-8, this is absolutely correct. Christ was sitting in the Holy of Holy in Jerusalem at the time Satan makes his invasion attempt as the Chief Prince of Mesech & Tubal.
 
Quote
Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19.


The two battles are separated by 1000 years in time. Armageddon occurred when Anti-christ was defeated a thousand years before Satan gets his defeat along with the forces of Gog & Magog.
 

Quote
"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."

Entire quote is pure fiction, the writer doesn't even allude to Rev 20:7-8 because it doesn't support this untenable position.
 
Quote
Hunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.

Huh? I have no idea what the guy just said......Is there an interpreter on-line?
 
Quote
If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah.

He starts out with "paneh" that Christ must already be present on the ground when the invasion occurs, then he states: "....one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah". This leaves me feeling quite pleased I didn't learn my use of the English language at his school of theology.

 
Quote
And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.

........and which scenario would he be talking about here? The scenario he started (paneh) with, or the one he concluded with(panim)? :2c:
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 07:32:20 PM by ded2daworld »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1155 on: November 28, 2012, 04:22:48 AM »
Paul did it  occur to you that gog and magog war could happen twice, once before the return of Christ and once after the 1000 year reign of Christ?

Rev 19 describes the gog and magog of Eze 38 as happening before the milleneum reign of Christ.  We know this because Christ is returning to earth with his armies from heaven to avenge the saints and fight the war himself.    What is described in Rev 20 is the second battle of gog and magog at the end of the millenium.


1st war, for which Christ returns:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

--Rev 19



Rev 19 is also described in prophecy by Enoch:




14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1


This is also described by many prophets as the day of the Lord or that day.



Rev 20 is describing the 2nd war of gog and magog, after the millenium:



And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

--Rev 20

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1156 on: November 28, 2012, 05:06:02 AM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145335#msg145335 date=1354069368

Quote
Paul did it  occur to you that gog and magog war could happen twice, once before the return of Christ and once after the 1000 year reign of Christ?

Only if it appears in the Bible......

Quote
Rev 19 describes the gog and magog of Eze 38 as happening before the milleneum reign of Christ.

OH? The only mention I see appears in Rv 20:7-8, plainly stated as occurring "and when the thousand years are expired", I'm pretty sure that means after the millenium, not "before" as you have stated it.

Quote
We know this because Christ is returning to earth with his armies from heaven

This is not "paneh", already present.....


Quote
to avenge the saints and fight the war himself.

What are you doing here? Picking & choosing your "paneh's" ?

Quote
  What is described in Rev 20 is the second battle of gog and magog at the end of the millenium.

Yep, this is what is called picking & choosing your "paneh's". The Bible doesn't state your position, so what the heck, just write it in.

Molly, I'm not a 1st grader........six years of engineering school education has served me pretty well. The math required to follow a simple timeline does not require calculus, so you bury it in eschatology to make it look presentable.



Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1157 on: November 28, 2012, 06:14:31 AM »
Rev 19 is describing a war with Christ and Israel on one side and the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies on the other side.  Is this the same war as Eze 38 and 39?

In my opinion, Yes.

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

--Eze 38


We know that the latter days refers to the end of the age, this age, as it is referred to in this manner in other places in the Bible.  So the battle of Eze 38 [gog and magog] is happening at the end of the age.

The battle of Rev 19 is also happening at the end of the age, because it describes Christ's return and he returns at the end of the age.


in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.  Eze 38

Again it is the latter years, and Israel is described as having been brought out of the nations into the land once again when Gog decides to descend on her with his armies.
Today we see the first time in 2000 years that Israel has been brought into the land again from out of the nations.


9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.  Eze 38

This describes the abomination that causes desolation described by Daniel and Jesus which involves a foreign army invading Jerusalem and Judea, which we know kicks off the 3.5 years of the Great tribulation at the end of the age.


Here we see Rev 19 and Eze 39 describing the same outcome.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 

--Eze 39


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

--Rev 19



The Rev 19 battle of gog and magog ends with Satan being locked up in the pit for 1000 years.


And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

--Rev 20



After 1000 years, Satan is released and does the same thing all over again.



7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

--Rev 20



But Jesus does not return at the end of the Rev 20 war because he is already here.

He returned at the first battle of gog and magog, which is Richardson's point.


"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20


On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.--Zech 14:4


« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 04:12:51 PM by Molly »

Offline ded2daworld

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2102
  • Gender: Male
  • What if today we were just grateful for everything
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1158 on: November 28, 2012, 03:47:33 PM »
Please folks,
remember to be putting IMO
-especially where opinions differ widely about the prophetic scriptures. Thanks :friendstu:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5467
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1159 on: November 28, 2012, 05:05:55 PM »
Since when did and where does prophecy have an opinion? It is only me wondering. :Chinscratch:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2102
  • Gender: Male
  • What if today we were just grateful for everything
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1160 on: November 28, 2012, 06:00:24 PM »
Micah - What I meant was people have different interpretation of prophecy and were starting to post as if their interpretation was the right one rather than give an opinion. This is a discussion forum not a debate. We all (I think) agree that Bible prophecy is true and "scripture cannot be broken" but prophecy is a little more vague oftimes compared to "God is Love." :Peace2:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1161 on: November 28, 2012, 06:01:21 PM »
Quote
quote author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145341#msg145341 date=1354076071]

Quote
Rev 19 is describing a war with Christ and Israel on one side and the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies on the other side.

Is this the same war as Eze 38 and 39?

Not in accordance to the timeline given in Rev 20:7-8, IMO, it's the only timeline given anywhere in the Bible for the Gog/Magog event which clearly is separated in time with Armageddon by 1000 years.......

Quote
In my opinion, Yes.

Then give us a Biblical quote, I gave you mine & it's crystal clear.

Quote
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.--Eze 38

We know that the latter days refers to the end of the age, this age, as it is referred to in this manner in other places in the Bible.  So the battle of Eze 38 [gog and magog] is happening at the end of the age.

The end part of any period of time is the latter part of that period, the "latter" part of the 19th century is distinctly displaced from the "latter" part of the 20th century by 100 years. For century markers, "latter" could be any point beyond the the first fifty years of the century in question.

Quote
The battle of Rev 19 is also happening at the end of the age, because it describes Christ's return and he returns at the end of the age.

That's for sure......but what age? The current one we are presently living in or the millennial age?   If you want "paneh", you don't get it when Christ returns at the very end of the age, you can only get "paneh" if he was present before that.


Quote
in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.  Eze 38

Again, the "latter years" of what age?

Quote
Today we see the first time in 2000 years that Israel has been brought into the land again from out of the nations.

Only the House of Judah is present in the land. Most of the areas of the Land of Promise in present day Israel is populated by Arabs, it is they who largely populate the areas given to the House of Israel.


Quote
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.  Eze 38

This describes the abomination that causes desolation described by Daniel and Jesus

The "abomination that causes desolation" is nowhere mentioned in all of the book of Ezekiel, just as nowhere in all of Rev 19 is there any mention of Gog & Magog.


Quote
Here we see Rev 19 and Eze 39 describing the same outcome.

All wars have the same outcome, winners/losers. You could just just as well be discussing the American Civil War here. Vultures have been feeding on carcasses since the dawn of time, nothing unique about it, just a picture of the outcomes of all wars.

Quote
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.--Rev 19

Yep, happened right after Armageddon when Ant-Christ was defeated, and it'll happen again 1000 years later at a different epic battle that does not have it's location at Armageddon. Have you taken some time to study the battle location where Messiah defeats Gog & Magog? I've not been able to find a Biblical reference that equates "Hammon-gog" with Armageddon in respect to geographical location.

Quote
The Rev 19 battle of gog and magog ends with Satan being locked up in the pit for 1000 years.

Again, where in Rev 19 does Gog & Magog appear? So far I've located it only in Rev 20:7-8.


Quote
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.--Rev 20


Quote
But Jesus does not return at the end of the Rev 20 war because he is already here.

That's for sure, it's what "paneh" is all about. Christ was sitting inside the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem when Gog & Magog commenced their invasion attempt, he wasn't sitting in the Holy of Holies when Anti-christ succeeded in his invasion of Jerusalem a 1000 years earlier; different wars, different outcomes of specific events.

Quote
He returned at the first battle of gog and magog, which is Richardson's point.


At the time of the "first" (only) battle of Gog & Magog, Christ was already sitting in the Holy of Holies inside the city of Jerusalem, having been there already for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8.

Richardson's point starts with "paneh" but he concludes it with "panim"....he contradicted his original premise to which if he'd remained true he would have somewhere in his digression at least mentioned Rev 20:7-8, but he appears deliberately avoid quoting it because of the obvious contradiction he creates within his own premise. :2c:
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 07:37:49 PM by ded2daworld »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1162 on: November 28, 2012, 06:41:52 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Not in accordance to the timeline given in Rev 20:7-8, it's the only timeline given anywhere in the Bible for the Gog/Magog event which clearly is separated in time with Armageddon by 1000 years.......

I agree it's a nice timeline in Rev 20, but the timeline starts with Satan being cast into the pit and the beginning of the millenium reign of Christ.

It does not mention the war which was just covered in Rev 19, during which Jesus returns to earth, and which aligns in so many ways with Eze 38 and 39 as I attempted to show with scripture. 


Quote
That's for sure......but what age? The current one we are presently living in or the millennial age? If you want "paneh", you don't get it when Christ returns at the very end of the age, you can only get "paneh" if he was present before that.

IMO, Christ returns at the end of the current age.  This is commonly referred to in the Bible as the day of the Lord.  He vanquishes the enemies of Israel and rules and reigns for 1000 years.   When he returns, he stands on the mount of Olives and there is a great earthquake, splitting the mountain in half.  He says, all on earth will quake at my presence.[Ez 38]  Once he returns, he is present and all the earth will be struck with fear and mourn when they see him.  This will be an earth-shattering event.  His return is described in the context of the war spoken of in Rev 19, which is the same war as Eze 38.

Quote
The "abomination that causes desolation" is nowhere mentioned in all of the book of Ezekiel, just as nowhere in all of Rev 19 is there any mention of Gog & Magog.

Those specific words are not used there, nor are they used in Rev 20.  However, Eze does talk about armies invading Jerusalem and Judea which is what the abomination is.


16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

--Eze 38

  This is what Jesus referred to when he said in Mat 24--when you see this--flee for your life!  This is the beginning of the last 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation--Daniel says, when you see this start counting in days to the return of Christ.   Jesus will return to cut those days short and save the remnant of his people Israel.  The Bible tells us 2/3's of them will be wiped out before the great tribulation ends.

IMO, This is what happens at the end of this age.  The war of Eze 38 fits the description, incuding the return of Christ. Richardson's point is that Christ was present in Eze 38 prophecy causing the whole world to quake which we know happens when Christ returns at the end of this age.  The fact that the war is repeated again at the end of 1000 years does not negate this. 


"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20

On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.--Zech 14:4


Finally, Gog is an archon who is around now, around at the first war of Gog and magog, and around at the second war of Gog and magog.  He doesn't just miraculously appear at the end of the millenium out of nowhere.


2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,  Eze 38



Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:  Eze 39

The word prince here refers to an archon, a supernatural being, in the same way that the word prince in the book of Daniel [prince of Persia] referrs to an archon fought by the archangel Michael.  Gog is not human.

This is of course always my opinion.  And as always, we can agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 07:39:41 PM by ded2daworld »

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1163 on: November 28, 2012, 11:59:15 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145376#msg145376 date=1354120912]
Quote from: Paul
Not in accordance to the timeline given in Rev 20:7-8, it's the only timeline given anywhere in the Bible for the Gog/Magog event which clearly is separated in time with Armageddon by 1000 years.......

Quote
I agree it's a nice timeline in Rev 20, but the timeline starts with Satan being cast into the pit and the beginning of the millenium reign of Christ.

The "timeline" actually starts with the opening day of the 70th week & is a continuous unfolding series of events, events that are parallel & congruent to other events are so noted.....there are several examples of this, but none in Rev 19 with Gog & Magog.

Quote
It does not mention the war which was just covered in Rev 19

Huh? What "war"? The only war discussed in Rev 19 is the defeat of Anti-Christ & his armies.

Quote
.... and which aligns in so many ways with Eze 38 and 39 as I attempted to show with scripture.

All you did was show how all battles conducted during any warfare end up with the same results, winner/loser, mayhem & death, birds of prey feeding on carcasses, etc; you might just as well as been talking about the American Civil War.


Quote
That's for sure......but what age? The current one we are presently living in or the millennial age? If you want "paneh", you don't get it when Christ returns at the very end of the age, you can only get "paneh" if he was present before that.

Quote
His return is described in the context of the war spoken of in Rev 19, which is the same war as Eze 38.

OK, then let's discuss that "context": The "abomination that causes desolation" is nowhere mentioned in all of the book of Ezekiel, just as nowhere in all of Rev 19 is there any mention of Gog & Magog. When Anti-christ came to Jerusalem, he not only enters it but destroys whole sections of the city & drives out it's resident saints, I don't see that in Ezek 38-39.

Your focus has only been on similarities. What about dis-similarities? Start focusing on one just like I pointed out, then maybe you'll understand better why there is no mention of Gog & Magog in Rev 19, it's the dis-similarity.

Quote
Those specific words are not used there, nor are they used in Rev 20.


I know, that's exactly the point I've been making.......

Quote
However, Eze does talk about armies invading Jerusalem and Judea

So by this line of reasoning, when Nebuchadnezzar invaded & sacked Jerusalem, that too is an applicable use of "context"? It's the same end result, so it must be the same war?

Quote
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.--Eze 38

"latter days" of what century?

Quote
  The war of Eze 38 fits the description,

Again, it fits the descriptions of lots of battles from time immemorial,

Quote
incuding the return of Christ.

Christ's return is nowhere mentioned in Eze 38. The fact of his "presence" , the "paneh" about which Richardson discussed is what is in play here.

Quote
Richardson's point is that Christ was present in Eze 38 prophecy causing the whole world to quake which we know happens when Christ returns at the end of this age.

Sure, and the that is not the only time the Bible speaks of the world in a quaking mode, or are you suggesting that everytime one reads in the Bible that the world quakes & shakes that it must always be referring to the same event?


Quote
The fact that the war is repeated again at the end of 1000 years does not negate this.

Still looking for your evidence there's a "repeat", so it's negated until you come up with it.


Quote
Finally, Gog is an archon who is around now, around at the first war of Gog and magog, and around at the second war of Gog and magog.  He doesn't just miraculously appear at the end of the millenium out of nowhere.

I have no idea what this means................or is that what you you discuss immediately below:

Quote
The word prince here refers to an archon, a supernatural being, in the same way that the word prince in the book of Daniel [prince of Persia] referrs to an archon fought by the archangel Michael.  Gog is not human.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1164 on: November 29, 2012, 04:43:43 AM »
Quote from: Paul
When Anti-christ came to Jerusalem, he not only enters it but destroys whole sections of the city & drives out it's resident saints, I don't see that in Ezek 38-39

All of these passages are discussing the same end time event which will occur at the end of this age.  It is called by Daniel 'the abomination that causes desolation'.  It is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem and Judea.  It starts the Great Tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble.  It will mark the final 3.5 years of the age.  Take it or leave it--it's my opinion.



and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.   Dan 9:27


And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.  Dan 11:31


And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:11


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

--Mat 24



20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

--Luke 21



in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

--Eze 38



15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

--Eze 38



19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  Rev 19



Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  Jer 30:7



Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 05:09:00 AM by Molly »

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1165 on: November 29, 2012, 04:07:16 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145404#msg145404 date=1354157023]
Quote from: Paul
When Anti-christ came to Jerusalem, he not only enters it but destroys whole sections of the city & drives out it's resident saints, I don't see that in Ezek 38-39

Quote
All of these passages are discussing the same end time event which will occur at the end of this age.  It is called by Daniel 'the abomination that causes desolation'.  It is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem and Judea.  It starts the Great Tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble.  It will mark the final 3.5 years of the age.  Take it or leave it--it's my opinion.

There's no disagreement on this timeline, the career of Anti-christ, it's right on the money. But this timeline & series of events cannot be found in the book of Ezekiel. Where in Ezek 38 & 39 is there any discussion that foreign armies make a successful invasion of Jerusalem as described above?

Quote
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.  Dan 11:31


And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:11


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Quote
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So where in Ezekiel 38 & 39 do we find warnings for the inhabitants to flee the city of Jerusalem? In fact we find the opposite (Ezek 38:11), that God comes & defends the land & prevents these conditions from being repeated in contrast to 1000 years earlier, this is what all of Ezek 38 & 39 is all about, a thwarting of the efforts of the Chief Prince of Mesech & Tubal to recreate the the conditions of the 70th week of Daniels prophecy where the conditions inside Israel became so dire that 2/3rds of the population are murdered. Where do you see 2/3rds of the population of Jerusalem, or anywhere else in Israel, being murdered in Ezek 38 & 39?

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.--Mat 24

....and where is any of this found in Ezekiel?



Quote
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.--Luke 21

.....and what passage in Ezekiel does this fulfill?

The 38 & 39th chapters of Ezekiel contain absolutely no description of the events described in Luke 21. In fact the reverse is the case, the opening verses of chapter 39 sets up the battle conditions whereby the Gog/Magog invasion force is defeated. They obviously never make it to the city of Jerusalem because there is not one word of discussion in Ezek 38 or 39 about Jerusalem, only about certain unspecified "mountains" on Israel's north border, at which time the Gog/Magog invasion force is defeated.


Quote
in the latter years

But in the "latter years" of what age? The context of Ezek 38 & 39 does not describe the age in which the events of Luke 21 occur. The context of Ezek 38 & 39 is found in Rev 20:9, this occurs "when the thousand years are expired".

Quote
thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

And here is the land of Israel that has been "brought back from the sword", and this somehow fits into the Luke 21? How do you do that with diametrically opposite descriptions of the living conditions inside Israel? In Ezek 38:11 the Israelites are living safely & securely inside their borders & in 39:3-5 Gog's defeat occurs in an "open field", not inside Jerusalem.

 Nowhere in all of Ezekiel 38-39 is there one word of mention that there are forces encompassing Jerusalem and entering it. Therefore it must be a different time, a different event.


Quote
Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

And when is this occurring ? Can't be at the same time of Ezekiel 38:11 when Israel is safely dwelling in the land because the descriptions of events are the opposite of one another just as is also described in Luke 21.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1166 on: November 29, 2012, 04:28:09 PM »
Quote
Nowhere in all of Ezekiel 38-39 is there one word of mention that there are forces encompassing Jerusalem and entering it. Therefore it must be a different time, a different event.

The great tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble:



in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

--Eze 38



15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

--Eze 38



15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

--Mat 24


They threw dice to decide which of my people would be their slaves. They traded boys to obtain prostitutes and sold girls for enough wine to get drunk.
--Joel 3:3


In the whole land, declares the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"

--Zech 13



13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time [3 1/2 years].

--Rev 12



"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book

--Dan 12

« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 04:45:09 PM by Molly »

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1167 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:25 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145436#msg145436 date=1354199289]

Quote
Nowhere in all of Ezekiel 38-39 is there one word of mention that there are forces encompassing Jerusalem and entering it. Therefore it must be a different time, a different event.

Quote
The great tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble:

...and where is this found in Ezek 38 & 39? Ezek 38:11 explicitly states the opposite of this scenario, this being the case, it can't possibly be the same event occurring in the same age.


Quote
in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

So if they have been brought back from the sword once already as clearly stated here, then that it's about to happen for a second period of "latter years"? How many times must these people endure a 2/3rds decimation of their population?

Quote
Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.--Eze 38

Yep, and also Rev 20:7-9.....and the invasion is stopped dead in it's tracks at Hammon-gog, Ezek 39:11, not at Armageddon. Two different battle sites, two different defeats. Anti-christ forces get their defeat at Armageddon, Gog/Magog forces get their defeat at Hammon-gog.


Quote
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.--Eze 38

Yep, also found in Rev 20:7-9....



Quote
15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. --Mat 24

Not found in Ezekiel 38 & 39


Quote
They threw dice to decide which of my people would be their slaves. They traded boys to obtain prostitutes and sold girls for enough wine to get drunk.
--Joel 3:3


In the whole land, declares the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"

--Zech 13



13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.--Rev 12

And where is any of this found in Ezekiel 38 & 39?

Ezekiel 38:11 states just the opposite.......this is at the conclusion of the  millenium, not the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy as are the events you quote above.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1168 on: November 29, 2012, 05:08:11 PM »
Blow a trumpet in Zion;
sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.
3 Fire devours before them,
and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
but behind them a desolate wilderness,
and nothing escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots,
they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
drawn up for battle.

6 Before them peoples are in anguish;
all faces grow pale.
7 Like warriors they charge;
like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
they do not swerve from their paths.
8 They do not jostle one another;
each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
and are not halted.
9 They leap upon the city,
they run upon the walls,
they climb up into the houses,
they enter through the windows like a thief.

10 The earth quakes before them;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
and the stars withdraw their shining.
11 The Lord utters his voice
before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome;
who can endure it?

Return to the Lord
12 "Yet even now," declares the Lord,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
13 and rend your hearts and not your garments."
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love;
and he relents over disaster.
14 Who knows whether he will not turn and relent,
and leave a blessing behind him,
a grain offering and a drink offering
for the Lord your God?

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
consecrate a fast;
call a solemn assembly;
16 gather the people.
Consecrate the congregation;
assemble the elders;
gather the children,
even nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom leave his room,
and the bride her chamber.

17 Between the vestibule and the altar
let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep
and say, "Spare your people, O Lord,
and make not your heritage a reproach,
a byword among the nations.

Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?'"

The Lord Had Pity
18 Then the Lord became jealous for his land
and had pity on his people.
19 The Lord answered and said to his people,
"Behold, I am sending to you
grain, wine, and oil,
and you will be satisfied;
and I will no more make you
a reproach among the nations.

20 "I will remove the northerner far from you,
and drive him into a parched and desolate land,
his vanguard into the eastern sea,
and his rear guard into the western sea;
the stench and foul smell of him will rise,
for he has done great things.

21 "Fear not, O land;
be glad and rejoice,
for the Lord has done great things!
22 Fear not, you beasts of the field,
for the pastures of the wilderness are green;
the tree bears its fruit;
the fig tree and vine give their full yield.

23 "Be glad, O children of Zion,
and rejoice in the Lord your God,
for he has given the early rain for your vindication;
he has poured down for you abundant rain,
the early and the latter rain, as before.

24 "The threshing floors shall be full of grain;
the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 I will restore to you the years
that the swarming locust has eaten,
the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,
my great army, which I sent among you.

26 "You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the Lord your God,
who has dealt wondrously with you.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
27 You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the Lord your God and there is none else.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.

The Lord Will Pour Out His Spirit
28  "And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.

30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

--Joel 2



20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

--Luke 21

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1169 on: November 29, 2012, 05:35:17 PM »
The times of the Gentiles are fulfilled at the end of the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.

No more will the stranger enter into Jerusalem.

In the first battle of Gog and magog, the land is overrun by hordes from the North.[Eze 38]

They are not stopped short, Paul.  They cover the land like a cloud.  Two thirds of those in Israel perish.


9 You will advance, coming on like a storm. You will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you.  Eze 38

In the second battle of Gog and magog, at the end of the millenium, they are not allowed to enter Jerusalem but are judged in the valley of Jehosephat.


"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because [past tense: what they did in the first battle at the end of this age] they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, 3 and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it.  Joel 3
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 05:40:49 PM by Molly »

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 3557
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1170 on: November 29, 2012, 07:59:20 PM »
I would like to suggest to all that we "discuss" the scriptures and our version of eschatology. It has been clearly stated in the rules of the forum that we ought to salt our posts with disclaimers like, "IMO" rather than enforcing our opinions with an attitude of empirical truth.

We have members on this forum from many differing perspectives on eschatology and it is a discussion forum, not a debate forum.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline dajomaco

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 845
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1171 on: November 29, 2012, 08:14:00 PM »

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Where in the world are there no flights on the sabbath
and the winters  are brutal.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-05/israeli-proposal-to-make-sunday-day-of-rest-may-benefit-retail.html

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1172 on: November 29, 2012, 11:43:05 PM »
Quote
author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145440#msg145440 date=1354203317]

Quote
In the first battle of Gog and magog, the land is overrun by hordes from the North.[Eze 38]

You inserted "overun".

Quote
They are not stopped short, Paul

Yes they are, at Hammom-gog, long before they get to Jerusalem. Do you know where Hammon-gog is?

Ezek 39:2 They are "stopped short", Molly: "I am against thee O Gog, the chief prince of Mesech & Tubal:And I will turn thee back and leave but the sixth part of thee....."

Quote
Two thirds of those in Israel perish.

Where is that stated in Ezek 38 or 39? The only numbers are those of the dead invaders, 5/6 of them perish.

In the battle of Gog and Magog, at the end of the millenium, they are not allowed to enter Jerusalem but are judged in the valley of Hammon-gog Ezek 39:11, this is not Jehosephat.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:58:32 PM by ded2daworld »

Offline ded2daworld

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2102
  • Gender: Male
  • What if today we were just grateful for everything
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1173 on: November 30, 2012, 12:06:22 AM »
I'm locking this thread. This is way off track of UR and you're discussing matters that we can't change and that can't change our lives and there's no way of proving since scripture is not definitive (though it may seem so to each idea proponent)
My apologies  to all that think this is a wrong move.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline ded2daworld

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2102
  • Gender: Male
  • What if today we were just grateful for everything
Re: Prophecy
« Reply #1174 on: November 30, 2012, 02:27:19 PM »
"The moderators of the forum would ask everyone to pay attention to the forum rules and keep the discussion in a spirit of sharing between members of the body of Christ."

2 Peter 1:20 Above all else, however, remember that none of us can explain by ourselves a prophecy in the Scriptures.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 06:18:33 PM by ded2daworld »
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"