Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 209928 times)

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Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #750 on: October 07, 2012, 10:30:51 PM »
Quote from: doug
IMO, there is no such thing as an "unforetold gap" except in the misty darkness of dispensationalist delusions.

It was a mystery, that is, kept hidden, for eyes only, known only to the initiates--those who were personally told by God.  Kept secret for ages and generations.

Is that so hard to understand?

This mystery is now being made known to the saints.

What's so hard to understand about: "all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days"? See Acts 3:24.

Peter said they spoke of "these days," referring to the days of the apostles, and the whole church era, of which we are a part today. John said, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." [1 John 2:18] It was the "last time" then, and still is the "last time" today, and many more "antichrists" exist today. The whole church era is the "last time." There is no "time" after the "last time." It is the final half of the 70th week; no "gap" exists between the 69th and 70th week as dispensationalism claims.

Paul explained what the "mystery" was. It has nothing to do with an alleged "gap." He wrote:

Ephesians 3:3-9
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

The "mystery" is the revelation "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel."

Traditional Dispensationalism denies that Jews and Gentiles are "the same body." Some have even claimed they have different eternal destinies.

Paul explained the mystery in various ways. One could say there are several mysteries. In Colossians 1:27 he wrote, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

In 1 Corinthians 2:6-10 he wrote:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

All these scriptures reveal bits of insight on the "mystery." There is nothing here that suggests or supports the idea of a "gap," or a "parenthesis" such as dispensationalism proposes, an "unforetold gap in prophetic history." That is just a "gap" in their understanding. They have been blinded, because they do not believe what the apostles taught. They think Christ's kingdom is yet future. At Pentecost, Peter said Jesus was "made Christ." That means he fulfills the prophecies about a king of the line of David who reigns forever on the throne of David, over the twelve tribes of Israel. Peter said:

Acts 2
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Dispensationalism has long denied that Jesus is reigning now upon the throne of David. But they were faced with a challenge upon this very point, with the development of "progressive dispensationalism." The authors of this modification of dispensationalism were Craig A. Blaising, Darrell L. Bock, and Robert L. Saucy.

This newer theory exposes some of the flaws in the doctrine of older varieties of dispensationalism.

Another aspect of the "mystery" is mentioned in Romans 11. It is about the "blindness" of Jews who reject the gospel. Actually this information was not specific to Paul because Peter said very similar things in Acts 3; those Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Christ, are cut off from Israel. Peter said this was stated in the law of Moses. He wrote, "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." [Acts 3:22-24]

This is basically similar to what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." But then, what happens? In the judgment, the "vail" of unbelief is taken away. Isaiah wrote: "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." [Isaiah 25:7]

"All nations" includes Jews who were in unbelief. They will be raised up, with the people of Nineveh, and the queen of the south, as Jesus said. [Matthew 12:41-42]

Doug


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #751 on: October 08, 2012, 08:21:25 AM »
Amen

Romans 16 and Romans 11 speak of the mystery, and Paul really fills this out for the Ephesians (and all believers)

In Ephesians we see…

1) The mystery of His kind intention, the gathering together of all things in Christ, God's kind intention for the ages.(Eph 1:9-11;Col.1:16-21;1 Cor 15:23-28;Romans 8:18-24)

2) The mystery of the ONE NEW MAN, a priesthood made of Jew and Gentile with NO DIVIDING WALL, having an inheritance with the Son of God- that inheritance being the ministry of delivering  the WHOLE CREATION from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Eph 3:1-11; Romans chapters 9-11; Galatians Chapter 3)

3)The mystery of the Bride (Eph 5:32;Hebrews 12;Rev 12; Rev 21) IMO, a woman clothed in the sun, giving birth to a man-child, the fulfillment of Ephesian 4:7-16(until we all attain....)

4)The mystery of the gospel(Eph 6:19, Romans 16:25-27) inclusive of all of the above mysteries.

All of these mysteries are, in summation, the gospel, "euaggelion", eu-good/kind aggelion-announcement/news/message. They are the "mystery of the gospel"

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
(Eph 6:18-20)

Paul "made known" the mystery as an ambassador from the kingdom of heaven- as are we if we know what spirit we are of and are established in the basics and walking in the love of God.

the "restoration of the mysteries" is the "re-pouring" of the foundation doctrines of the apostles so that the temple of living stones can be rebuilt, "see to it that you make it according to the pattern", and the glory can settle once again upon the house of God- "the house of prayer for all peoples".

"If the foundations be removed, what shall the righteous do"(Psalm 11:3)

"And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."
(Isa 58:10-12)

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
(Psa 51:17-18)

The mystery was made known to the apostles of Jesus. Through them and by the writings of the prophets, it was made known to the whole church,"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" (Eph 1:9)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(Joh 14:26)

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)

"first principles" is arche stoicheon   arche- most important, primary  stoicheon -foundation,elemental

The primary elements of, or the basic foundations of, or the "under-standing"- that which stands under, the foundation.

What is a mystery to the world is the basic foundation of our gospel, we just havent fully got the milk down yet is all :o)

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection(maturity/completion); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
(Heb 6:1-3)

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:6-10)














« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 08:28:44 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #752 on: October 08, 2012, 08:43:32 AM »
everyone leaves out this one--


Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.




26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #753 on: October 08, 2012, 08:48:17 AM »
everyone leaves out this one--

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

:thumbsup:

I believe that's the part of the "process" we're in now.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #754 on: October 08, 2012, 08:50:48 AM »
A little to share here about the word "Mystery" as in "Mystery Babylon" (what I want to get to,) or as in "The Mystery of the Gospel."  It has been used of things hidden and mysterious in the writings of the Hebrew prophets that are now understood since the coming of Jesus and the writings of the Greek scriptures.  While some truth is in this, it doesn't do justice to the wealth of our spiritual life in union with God the Holy Spirit that He sends in Jesus' name.  It is important to understand that not only is the true understanding of at least the 12 Mysteries in the New Testament dependent on the initiation into that understanding by the work of the Holy Spirit within us, we can only continue to perceive these mystical realities by the continuing work of the Holy Spirit.  Detached from Him whatever we remember about them withers and dies.

I would point out it seems inconsistent to speak of a "Mystical Babylon" as being a literal city built or to be built with bricks and mortar, steel, stone, glass, and whatever other "literal" material goes into such a non-mystical city.
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #755 on: October 08, 2012, 08:59:21 AM »
everyone leaves out this one--


Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.




26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Actually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.
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Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #756 on: October 08, 2012, 03:26:12 PM »
A little to share here about the word "Mystery" as in "Mystery Babylon" (what I want to get to,) or as in "The Mystery of the Gospel."  It has been used of things hidden and mysterious in the writings of the Hebrew prophets that are now understood since the coming of Jesus and the writings of the Greek scriptures. 

I would point out it seems inconsistent to speak of a "Mystical Babylon" as being a literal city built or to be built with bricks and mortar, steel, stone, glass, and whatever other "literal" material goes into such a non-mystical city.

The operative Greek word here is musterion which literally from the Greek means to "shut (muo) the mouth" When the angel says to John the Revelator in Rev 17:7, "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman...", that simply means he is about to "open (unshut) his mouth and talk about it", that is talk about the symbolism of the "woman" in question. So the angel opens his mouth & tells John what the "woman" is symbolic of and that this is the complete explanation, no need to do that which so many Bible Commentaries do in a foolish endeavor to "interpret the interpretation".

Who are all these commentators who think they are so smart that they can interpret that which God has already clearly interpreted? God clearly unshuts his mouth & says the "woman" is the "city of Babylon", but foolish men in all their brilliance  says God really means Rome or New York City, or some other wholly made up piece of fiction. What is this? Is God really so stupid that he doesn't even know what he means when he makes a statement? No wonder so many people don't believe in God, or the Bible, what with so many "Christians"  running around saying that God does not really mean what he clearly states, they have a good excuse for their "unbelief" don't they? And we're supposed to be witnesses to an unbelieving world mired in Godlessness & we can't even get the facts straight about our own Holy Writ?

Or how about Dan 11:6? God clearly tells Daniel there will be a wedding in the "end of years" of the daughter of the King of the South to one of the Kings of the North, and what do Bible commentaries do? Foolishly they start ransacking the history of a decaying Greek empire in 300 BC for an interpretation that is in direct defiance of the plainly stated writ, "end of years".

No wonder so many will be caught up in absolute surprise when endtime prophecies start to be fulfilled, people's minds will be so filled with the pap of Replacement Theology (Preterism) instigated by "respected" theologians that there will be no quantity of clear statements of Holy Writ that will have any credibility.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 03:36:37 PM by Paul L »

Offline sheila

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #757 on: October 08, 2012, 05:02:05 PM »
 as in the days of Noah..marrying and giving in marriage......those who marry will have tribulation

  in the flesh....she Babylon  is an adulteress and fornicates with the kings of the earth

   but you are promised as a chaste virgin betrothed to Christ...I fear lest ye be seduced......away.....

   marriages can be church and state unions.

  now, i am not saying that I have a full understanding of this marriage spoken of.......

  but I know there is a great evening meal where birds eat flesh of generals etc....and another

  meal where the wedding supper of the Lord is and those who partake of it.


    He said...I will make you jealous of a people who are NOT a nation...........

Offline sheila

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #758 on: October 08, 2012, 06:04:14 PM »
the Great multitude in white robes.

   after this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count...

   from every nation,tribe,people and language standing before the throne and in front of

  the Lamb.  They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands

   and they cried out in a loud voice

   salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne..and to the Lamb


    these in white robes..who are they? and where did they come from?

   these are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; they have washed their robes and made

  them white in the blood of the Lamb.


   Satan will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth[man is divided by race in the earth

 into black,white,yellow and red] and further divided into nations etc...their is no such division

  in Christ]   nations deceived by Satan..into warring against the oneness of mankind in Christ

THEN I SAW A GREAT WHITE THRONE AND THE ONE WHO WAS SEATED ON IT


  EARTH AND SKY FLED FROM HIS PRESENCE.  [why would thee arth and sky flee from His presence?

   old earth with it's divisions nation against nation has no place in Christ..old heavens/scattered

  into four corners of heavens/prince of the air..who divides through  differences of religions..

    Look!!!   The Holy city coming down from heaven!! New heavens! New earth!!!  all four corners of what

  was scattered in the heavens and on earth...ARE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

   Beautiful spiritual jeweled city of many colours...reflecting light as a rainbow...in it's

  many and varied hueman.    God and The Lamb are in the midst of the city..and are the light of it






Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #759 on: October 08, 2012, 06:32:15 PM »
The scroll of revelation is the apocalypse(apocalupsis), the opening/disclosure/unveiling of mysteries. It was disclosing them "to the churches" from the day it was written by John and distributed among the saints.

The writing says Babylon sits on seven hills. The the prophetic voice goes on to describe these seven hills and an eight as kingdoms distributed chronologically through time.

What hill is she sitting on today?

The Arab nations do not fulfill many of those prophesies- not even closely.


The prophecies of the book of revelation were written for the saints of 2000 years, not just the saints of the last 50 or 100 years.

I believe there is a literal fulfillment, I just believe we have to consider all the verses and what they say. I think the interpretation is incorrect, and that you are misidentifying Babylon as you fail to take into account the whole testimony of scripture(and of course, I am sure you feel the same way about my interpretation, I intend no offense)

Babylon has been a MYSTERY since time immemorial- she is not Iraq/Iran, when she falls the whole world will be AmAZEd AND  TERRIFIED. BEHOLD IN ONE HOUR BABYLON IS FALLEN, IN HER IS FOUND ALL THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS, she is the GREAT CITY known and feared by ALL.

Who could that be, Bagdad, Tehran..... I don't think so. The United States just bombed Bagdad into rubble and there are a half dozen nations that could bully the Iraqis and Iranians.

IMO, The whole world will never follow Islam. Not even the majority of it. I think we are on the precipice of major world changes and shifts and there are many possibilities on the horizon, but I think Babylon the Great is something MUCH MORE than the historical and geographical city.

One can't just cherry pick the few verses that fit one view or another, we have to consider all that is written of "her"- that "great city", the "harlot"- Mystery Babylon.

Do you really think that the revelation of John was written for the last few years of the age?

 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
(Rev 22:6-7)

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
(Rev 22:9-10)

I am just saying that perhaps the time transcendent truths hidden in the scroll of John's revelation are as important as any literal fulfillment, since according to the TESTIMONY OF the SCROLL ITSELF the "time is at hand" 2000 years ago when it came out. The fact that preterists reject the literal aspects and that fundamentalists throw out the figurative aspects is just a testament to the ambition, immaturity and blindness of both. If you want simple.....

Let the one who has ears to hear, hear WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES.



« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 06:50:38 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #760 on: October 08, 2012, 06:49:12 PM »
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
 
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

--Rev 1


You can read this whole book as occurring in the context of John being taken away in the Spirit and shown what will be at the end times, in the Lord's day, and leading up to it.


Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel.  We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times.  So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.

Given the book is prophecy, when John is taken away in Spirit, he is told the time is at hand, when all these things shall be fulfilled.  This is because he is taken to that time, the end of the age, in Spirit. 

 Write this to the churches now, he is instructed, about what shall be at the
end of times.  --which he did and the book has survived to this day.

Again, the Lord's day is not Saturday or Sunday.  It is the day of the LORD which occurs at the end of the age.  This is a book of prophecy about THAT day, as the Bible refers to it, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and reign on earth with his saints.



8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
 
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
 
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

--Daniel 12



« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 07:08:55 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #761 on: October 08, 2012, 07:52:59 PM »

Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel.  We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times.  So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.


The book described in Revelation 5:1 is sealed with seven seals. The whole chapter is devoted to the question, who is worthy to open the seals?

For many, the person who unseals the book of Revelation is John N. Darby. Or one of his followers. Others suppose rationalist German critics unravelled its mysteries. Or, insert your favourite commentator. But in Revelation 5:12, Jesus Christ is the only one found worthy, in heaven and earth, to open the seals of the book. As I understand this, it teaches that to understand the book of Revelation, our minds need to be enlightened by Christ. He unlocks and unseals the book to us, not Mr. Darby, or any other person; only Jesus can open our minds to its meaning.

On the question about whether Babylon in chapters 17 and 18 is a literal city, Daniel's prophecies illuminate the significance of Babylon in Revelation. Daniel acknowledged that God is the one who reveals secrets.

Daniel 2:27-30
Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

Daniel was given the true interpretation of the king's dream. It reveals the meaning of Babylon in prophecy.

Daniel 2:31-35
Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Here is a great image, and as Daniel explains the vision, the image represents all the great human kingdoms, that are eventually broken, and reduced to chaff, and the kingdom of God takes their place. 

Daniel 2:36
This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The image's head represented Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, called Babylon, implying that the whole image can be called "Babylon." This underlies John's use of the term Babylon in Revelation, IMO. It represents the world, human civilization. The image described in Daniel 2 includes all human governments and society.

In Revelation 11:8, John alludes to this "great city," as symbolic of the whole world, outside Jerusalem. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem; he "suffered without the gate." [Heb. 13:12]

Jerusalem itself is the holy city of the saints, the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city," which represents the church, the heavenly Jerusalem.

This also leads to the proper interpretation of the wilderness, in Rev. 12:6, 14, and Rev. 17:3.

Those who have "escaped the corruption that is in the world," [2 Pet. 1:4] come out of Babylon, and go to a spiritual "wilderness."

The sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness before they came to the promised land is a metaphor and a figure of the church's present state. [1 Cor. 10:1-11; 2 Pet. 2:1]

Egypt and Sodom were places from which God's people escaped. They represent the bondage of sin, and the world. The world's social systems, governments, philosophies, and religions are represented by the great city Babylon, in Revelation 18:1-4. Verse 4 says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

In Rev. 12:6 and 14 the woman flees to the wilderness, and has a place prepared by God, and is nourished there. Jesus said to his disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [John 14:2-3] The place prepared for her by God represents the spiritual environment in which Christians dwell in all ages of the church. Like the Israelites who camped in many different places in the wilderness, the church has persevered through various spiritual and cultural environments, over the centuries, and today exists in all nations.

The "place" prepared for the woman in Rev. 12:6 and Rev. 12:14 is no doubt the same as the "place" Jesus prepares for the saints in John 14, which is called a wilderness, as it is separate and distinct from the world.

And in Rev. 17:3, John said he was taken to the wilderness, from where he saw the woman who sat on the beast. He said, "And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth." [Rev. 17:5]

From the wilderness, a place outside of, and separate from the world-system, John described the woman riding the beast. That is how we need to understand it too. The "fornication" of the woman refers to her involvement with the world, and its politics, governments, nations, and society.

James wrote: "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." [James 4:4]

Doug


Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #762 on: October 08, 2012, 08:02:12 PM »
Quote from: doug
The image's head represented Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, called Babylon, implying that the whole image can be called "Babylon."

Yes, Babylon is the head [mind] of the system--but those who rule the world under this system [through this mind] change as we move through history,--the seven empires, and the eighth a revival of the seventh-- and Daniel is also telling us the history of Babylon-from the beginning to the end of this age.


And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The beast that was and is no longer is the eighth king, but it belongs with the seven kings and goes to its destruction.

--Rev 17: 10,11



Offline thinktank

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #763 on: October 08, 2012, 11:04:36 PM »
A little to share here about the word "Mystery" as in "Mystery Babylon" (what I want to get to,) or as in "The Mystery of the Gospel."  It has been used of things hidden and mysterious in the writings of the Hebrew prophets that are now understood since the coming of Jesus and the writings of the Greek scriptures.  While some truth is in this, it doesn't do justice to the wealth of our spiritual life in union with God the Holy Spirit that He sends in Jesus' name.  It is important to understand that not only is the true understanding of at least the 12 Mysteries in the New Testament dependent on the initiation into that understanding by the work of the Holy Spirit within us, we can only continue to perceive these mystical realities by the continuing work of the Holy Spirit.  Detached from Him whatever we remember about them withers and dies.

I would point out it seems inconsistent to speak of a "Mystical Babylon" as being a literal city built or to be built with bricks and mortar, steel, stone, glass, and whatever other "literal" material goes into such a non-mystical city.

I thought I'd share this. We do not come from the same perspective, but since you speak of the word "mystery"

That mystery babylon is a mystery.

The name of that city is Babylon. So what's the mystery?
It brings me back to Pauls words, behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep.
So to me mystery babylon is a resurrection of the city of Babylon, to coincide with the resurrection of the king of Babylon. So the 8th head, lives in mystery Babylon.
The 8th head beast makes war with the saints. So this fills up the beasts city, Babylon with lots of prophet and saint blood. So she sheds and drinks blood of all those upon the earth.
Because that great city has now engulfed and conquered Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified, then God in Zechariah splits up Jerusalem into 3 parts to save the city, also said in revelation about mystery babylon.

The bible uses great city to describe the city of Nineveh also. Which means great city is a capital city.
Since the king in Daniel has infiltrated and stolen the holy temple placing the abomination of desolation, there, then Jerusalem becomes the new headquaters of Babylon.
Jesus warns to flee Judea, when this happens.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #764 on: October 08, 2012, 11:07:24 PM »

Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel.  We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times.  So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.


 
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Except for the wedding of Dan 11:6?

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #765 on: October 08, 2012, 11:40:32 PM »


The name of that city is Babylon. So what's the mystery?
It brings me back to Pauls words, behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep.
So to me mystery babylon is a resurrection of the city of Babylon, to coincide with the resurrection of the king of Babylon. So the 8th head, lives in mystery Babylon.
The 8th head beast makes war with the saints. So this fills up the beasts city, Babylon with lots of prophet and saint blood. So she sheds and drinks blood of all those upon the earth.
Because that great city has now engulfed and conquered Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified, then God in Zechariah splits up Jerusalem into 3 parts to save the city, also said in revelation about mystery babylon.

The bible uses great city to describe the city of Nineveh also. Which means great city is a capital city.
Since the king in Daniel has infiltrated and stolen the holy temple placing the abomination of desolation, there, then Jerusalem becomes the new headquaters of Babylon.
Jesus warns to flee Judea, when this happens.

You make very interesting points. Yes, so what does happen when apparently in the middle of the 70th week the city of Babylon is destroyed by the ten horned beast as pointed out in Rev 17:16. So now the False Prophet needs a new staging ground for 3 1/2 more years doesn't he? So he invades Jerusalem, murders the 2 Witnesses, chases their faithful followers out of the city of Jerusalem into the wilderness, and now has the entire city all to himself setting it up as his new capitol to replace the one he just firebombed in Iraq. Cool, I can dig that scenario.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #766 on: October 08, 2012, 11:57:49 PM »

Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel.  We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times.  So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.


 
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Except for the wedding of Dan 11:6?

haha That already happened.  You are relying on a translator that you think is saying that is happening in the end times.  It is not, nor do the Hebrew words say that.  I will go into that in detail if you make me, but there is so much more to be concerned about.

Obviously, I think the Lord Jesus might be unsealing this scripture right now.  But, let's continue with our dialogue.  You see, when he unseals it, it happens.  That's why we can understand it.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #767 on: October 09, 2012, 01:44:03 AM »

Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel.  We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times.  So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.


 
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Except for the wedding of Dan 11:6?

haha That already happened.  You are relying on a translator that you think is saying that is happening in the end times.  It is not, nor do the Hebrew words say that.  I will go into that in detail if you make me, but there is so much more to be concerned about.

Obviously, I think the Lord Jesus might be unsealing this scripture right now.  But, let's continue with our dialogue.  You see, when he unseals it, it happens.  That's why we can understand it.

What translator is that of which you speak?

If I read it directly from the Bible & it clearly states this wedding occurs in the end of years, what is there to translate? Or maybe you are suggesting God has spoken directly to you & informed you he's changed his mind about this wedding date? That he wrote those words intending to deliberately mislead all of us except yourself? Come on, you know that hasn't happened. So what really do you think? "Let's continue with our dialogue", my challenge, your counter......

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #768 on: October 09, 2012, 02:07:13 AM »
Daniel 11:6 "After some years..."




New International Version (©1984)
After some years, they will become allies.


New Living Translation (©2007)
"Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north and the king of the south.

English Standard Version (©2001)
After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"After some years they will form an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the South will come to the king of the North


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north


GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After a few years the southern and northern kings will make an alliance.


King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And at the end of some years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north


American King James Version
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north


American Standard Version
And at the end of years they shall join themselves together; and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make


Douay-Rheims Bible
And after the end of years they shall be in league together: and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north


« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:16:14 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #769 on: October 09, 2012, 02:34:56 AM »
Quote from: eaglesway
Actually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.


This is what concerns me.  Nobody here seems to be agreeing with me that as a part of God's plan the Jews have been blinded, for our benefit,  and at the time of the end, when the fulfillment of the Gentiles has happened, the Jews will be brought back into the fold.

THIS is what Paul is talking about in Romans [9,10]11.  In Romans 11 he is very clear, Jesus will return, and they will be saved.  This is the promise God made to the tribe of Judah.  Romans 11 is an end time prophecy.  It is not yet happened.

And, for this reason, instead of boasting against them,  we must honor them as our brothers, now, before the time of the end,  because as He said,

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you."  Gen 12:3

And, They are going to really need the help of the church during the time of Jacob's trouble.




AN END TIME PROPHECY:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

--Rom 11


« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:41:24 AM by Molly »

Offline sheila

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #770 on: October 09, 2012, 03:22:06 AM »
I totally accept and rejoice in God's mercy shown unto all.  Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..

  all I can do is pray for all mankind...and yes, God called out a special people for His name..the Isrealites..

   but the kingdom is like leaven hidden in a basket..........the blindness of Isreal allowed mercy to the gentiles

   and the blindness of the gentile saints[christendom] allows mercy to be shown to all mankind

   the saints were overcome..and God planned it so...that no flesh should boast...the called out into

  special relationship..fall flat on their faces..time and again..so that 'sinners' can be welcomed in.

  it is the way of leaven...whether it be  of sin or righteousness and mercy in Christ.

   for God bound them all up in sin..to have mercy on all.

   ALL MEN. WILL BE BROUGHT BACK INTO THE FOLD...EVEN THE ONE DOOMED TO CUTTING OFF....

   IN ORDER THAT THE SCRIPTURES MAY BE FUFILLED. For his body possessed of the evil spirit....

  was an example of the corrupt image[satan/man of sin/son of perdition]  that all men have bore as the

 corruptible image to lesser or greater extent...sin in the flesh.....

  And so too, all men shall bear the incorruptible image of the son of God.


   JESUS WILL RETURN AND ALL MEN SHALL BE SAVED.

  .

   




 






























.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #771 on: October 09, 2012, 03:33:08 AM »
Daniel 11:6 "After some years..."




New International Version (©1984)
After some years, they will become allies.


New Living Translation (©2007)
"Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north and the king of the south.

English Standard Version (©2001)
After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"After some years they will form an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the South will come to the king of the North


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north


GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After a few years the southern and northern kings will make an alliance.


King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And at the end of some years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north


American King James Version
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north


American Standard Version
And at the end of years they shall join themselves together; and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make


Douay-Rheims Bible
And after the end of years they shall be in league together: and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north

Mol, I'd suggest you become proficient in the use of a good concordance if you want to try and hang a wedding date of 2300 BC on using half of the above translations. Stong's Concordance would be a good place to start, it's online. Look up word #'s 7093 & 8141. The Chaldee/Hebrew do not even remotely suggest "some" or "few" being placed before the word "years", it is bogus translating, it is "end". I understand you do not want this to be the case because of some other conflict this creates with your view of Dan 11, but God is not waiting on your approval, nor mine, God simply inspired the Chaldee/Hebrew 7093 for the English word "end", and I just take God at his word. I don't pick and choose my translations out of convenience, you shouldn't either.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #772 on: October 09, 2012, 03:40:20 AM »
Quote from: eaglesway
Actually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.


as a part of God's plan the Jews have been blinded, for our benefit,  and at the time of the end, when the fulfillment of the Gentiles has happened, the Jews will be brought back into the fold.

THIS is what Paul is talking about in Romans [9,10]11.  In Romans 11 he is very clear, Jesus will return, and they will be saved.  This is the promise God made to the tribe of Judah.  Romans 11 is an end time prophecy.  It is not yet happened.


I'm not real involved in this thread, but I totally agree.  It's the Plan of the Ages.  I don't care to explain it by labels or try to put it in some eschatological category, but according to my understanding of the scriptures.

 First Israel (throughout the OT and beginning of the New, pre-cross).
 After the cross, the elect of the Gentiles (plus a few Jews as part of the elect who are given eyes to see) while the rest are blinded;  "..their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn..".  Only in Christ is that veil removed, and yet according to the Jewish religion, Yashua is not (as yet) seen as the Messiah. 
 Within that elect, those few given faith to believe in this age, there is neither Jew nor Gentile; both alive and having become one in Christ. His body.   
 Time of Gentiles fulfilled, all Israel saved.
Blessings.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 03:59:07 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #773 on: October 09, 2012, 04:02:26 AM »
Paul--

We see in the very next chapter of Daniel, the reference to "the time of the end."   There is no controversy about this.  Everyone agrees this is referring to the end of the age.



9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Dan 12


TWO HEBREW WORDS

"the time of the end"

‛êth  qêts


"time"

H6256
עת
‛êth
ayth
From H5703; time, especially (adverbially with preposition) now, when, etc.: -  + after, [al-] ways, X certain, + continually, + evening, long, (due) season, so [long] as, [even-, evening-, noon-] tide, ([meal-], what) time, when.


[of the] "end"

H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: -  + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.


No one disputes "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:9 refers to the end times, even though other translations are possible of these two words.  Fourteen different translations all translate it with the same words:  the time of the end, or the end times or the end time.  All have the same meaning.

Why not use the same phrase, the same two words in Daniel 11, then, if the meaning was to be the end times?  BECAUSE DANIEL 11:6 USES TWO DIFFERENT WORDS.   This is why Daniel 11:6 is translated so differently [it might seem] by different translators.   If Daniel 11:6 was talking about the end times, the same two words would have been used as used in Daniel 12:9.


After some years, they will become allies.   Dan 11:6


TWO DIFFERENT HEBREW WORDS

"after some years"

qêts shâneh


"after"

H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: -  + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process


"some years"

H8141
שׁנה    שׁנה
shâneh  shânâh
shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): -  + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).


So here in Daniel 11:6 we see a bit of discretion used by the translators.  They alternatively translate  "after some years, "  "some years later,"  "in the end of years,"  "after a few years,""at the end of some years," and "after the end of years."

You can see from the words used and the context why they use their discretion.  But, it all means the same thing--after a period of years, the king and the daughter of the other king get together.

Nowhere does this refer to the end times.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 04:11:49 AM by Molly »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #774 on: October 09, 2012, 05:57:23 AM »
Yes, but the time of the end stretches out over many years, as Doug demonstrated, Peter and Paul both referred to the the last times as being in their present. John spoke in revelation to the churches and the Spirit spoke to the churches, so that THE BRIDE WOULD BE PURE so that the SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE COULD SPEAK TOGETHER, "COME,DRINK FREELY OF THE WATER OF LIFE." And let the one who thirsts come. It is clear and UNDENIABLE that the scroll, in the very least, OPENS TO THE CHURCHES and ENDS TO THE CHURCHES. My point is not so much to disagree with any particular literal interpretation, it is to point out that revelation is PRIMARILY, an "aionian" message to the Bride, the Body, the Overcomers in Christ, the City of God, the Messengers of the Gospel, the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, the "aionian gospel".

Personally, I do believe in literal fulfillment- I just believe it is primarily about the church manifesting in the end times. I believe in a literal anti christ, But only AS A MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT OF ANTI_CHRIST which has been in the world since the gospel first began according to John- AND THERE WERE ALREADY MANY. I believe in a literal Babylon, but SHE HAS BEEN RIDING THE HILLS THROUGH SEVEN WORLD KINGDOMS ALREADY AND ONLY ONE OF THEM BORE THE ACTUAL NAME BABYLON.

If Babylon is the Arab caliphate then who is the beast? If the beast turns and eats her, as the prophesy details literally, who fills that role?    Honest questions, really- I don't claim to know or forsee exactly who the final manifestation of Babylon will be in this age. It could be an as yet unforeseen confederation or kingdom.

What I do see clearly is that if we REALLY UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE OF JOHN"S REVELATION we would be tearing up Ephesians, Philipians and Colosians getting understanding about how to become the Bride, how to ADORN OURSELVES and how to get our vessels full of oil.

Like I said before, WANT SIMPLE?

When it comes to understanding Revelation

"LET THE ONE WHO HAS EARS TO HEAR, HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES!"
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com