Prophecy

[goodreport]

Noun 1. prophecy - knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine source)
 2. prophecy - a prediction uttered under divine inspiration




How does that saying go? 
"You can't handle the truth."


But, what does it say of God's people that the truth must be watered down and delivered to them only in pleasantries?

Yet, we look at the prophets of old, and what pleasantries came out of their mouths?

And, to skip over all the bad stuff, also known as judgment on a people who will not change its ways,  shows a lack of courage and character, an unwillingness to see the problem, and repent.




9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
 
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
 
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
 
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
 
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.

--Isa 30

Molly, sometimes we just "get to" proclaim.  We're not the Holy Spirit; we can't change hearts. 

[Molly]

Absolutely Uncertain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgvMGLdc908


A video about the ominous implications of our changing relationship  with Israel

[Molly]

All The President's Wars: How Foreign Policy Became One Man's Prerogative


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bOSOFKM5tE

[dajomaco]

Could it be the other side of the same coin with false prophets.
They realize that the people of the church want Jesus to return during their live time.

Lately we have had a huge market place to sell the end times prophecies.
People you do not trust in the lord for today.
Want to hear that the end of everything is near and unspirit filled people will tell them exactly what their Itching ears want to hear.

This generation will be judge by the next two generations.
As the generation who buried their COIN so that they did not have to risk.
The next two generations will spend their Coins and help bring in bumper crops

[Molly]

Isaiah 30:10 They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.


For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:3



2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

[dajomaco]

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

The key here is LAST DAYS.

In the beginning of the 19th century and  the beginning 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century.

Those you were miss led by a contrary spirit predicted that the LAST DAYS were upon them.

When the 22nd century starts there will a throng of people following a contrary spirit predicting that they are in the LAST DAYS.

Following or being a false prophet in no way profits the Kingdom of GOD

[Molly]

In the beginning of the 19th century and the beginning 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century.

Those you were miss led by a contrary spirit predicted that the LAST DAYS were upon them.

The Bible contains tons of descriptions of the last days, of the beast system that will drive it, of particular players like Antichrist and False Prophet, of specific nations that will be involved in specific ways.  And, always in the center of it, are God's covenant people.

I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time.  They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.  I think the reason the book of Daniel is sealed until the end is because it will simply not be understandable until the set up is in place for certain events to unfold.

Given that, I don't think you can go wrong by paying attention to what is going on in the world and looking at how it relates to Bible prophecy.  What I think we have to remember is that it is not only one event but many simultaneous and consecutive events that will exhibit the birth pangs of the LAST DAYS.

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

[jabcat]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.  It would be interesting to see the #'s on whether faith in YHWH through His Son is on the increase or decrease in the world, and what that might mean.  IF on the dramatic decrease, for those who think it just gets better and better from here, what's the perspective in light of that possible event (dramatic decrease in the faith)?  Thanks, blessings.

[jabcat]

p.s.  I certainly believe God is going to set things right.  But i don't know how dark things may get in the meantime, and I think there must be a combination of awareness/warning and hope/faith/trust.   

[Molly]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.  It would be interesting to see the #'s on whether faith in YHWH through His Son is on the increase or decrease in the world, and what that might mean.  IF on the dramatic decrease, for those who think it just gets better and better from here, what's the perspective in light of that possible event (dramatic decrease in the faith)?  Thanks, blessings.

I've read the same thing, and there are lots of warnings about Europe and the death of the culture if things continue in this vein, which they show every evidence of continuing.

We've already read how the Ottoman empire and its precursor brought us the dark ages, and brought it in waves, as first the Byzantine and then the European countries were dominated by Islam.  Whole libraries were burned, and the leaders, priests, and common people wiped out.  Today, the same thing can be brought about by a more 'peaceful' transition, just as a matter of a numbers game.  Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.  Even in our own country, there have been recent muslim protests against freedom of speech, and one would think no one would take it seriously, but our own President has said, 'The future does not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.'

Would calling that religion satanic be considered slander?

[WhiteWings]

I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time.  They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.

The counting strategy is also part of the prophesy.
And yes the events are also a very important part of that prophesy.
The problem with those events is that they aren't described in such a way it's impossible to be wrong about what they really are. Another problem is that only after all events took place it's sure they were the prophesied events.
Same with Jesus. When was it Biblically proven He was the person the whole OT pointed to?
At birth? After fulfilling 10% of all prophesies about him? 40%? 80%? 99%?
No. Only when the 100% was reached it was a fact.

[WhiteWings]

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like  a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?

[Molly]

I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time.  They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.

The counting strategy is also part of the prophesy.
And yes the events are also a very important part of that prophesy.
The problem with those events is that they aren't described in such a way it's impossible to be wrong about what they really are. Another problem is that only after all events took place it's sure they were the prophesied events.
Same with Jesus. When was it Biblically proven He was the person the whole OT pointed to?
At birth? After fulfilling 10% of all prophesies about him? 40%? 80%? 99%?
No. Only when the 100% was reached it was a fact.

It's interesting that when the Magi came to Herod and asked where will the king of the Jews be born, Herod called the priests and they said Bethlehem.  Then Herod takes on killing all the baby boys.

Then, 30 years later when John the Baptist is down at the river in the wilderness, they come to him from Jerusalem and ask him, who are you?

They knew the Messiah was there, and they were looking for him.  They knew who he was.

What they didn't know was how he was going to win.

Meanwhile, many who met him for the first time knew.

I think it is possible to know before there is 100 percent verification.

[WhiteWings]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.

It's a fact.

But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc

[Molly]

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like  a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?

I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things.  There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah.  That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David.  In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.

They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired.  They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.

[Molly]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.

It's a fact.

But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc

Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

[WhiteWings]

I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time.  They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.

The counting strategy is also part of the prophesy.
And yes the events are also a very important part of that prophesy.
The problem with those events is that they aren't described in such a way it's impossible to be wrong about what they really are. Another problem is that only after all events took place it's sure they were the prophesied events.
Same with Jesus. When was it Biblically proven He was the person the whole OT pointed to?
At birth? After fulfilling 10% of all prophesies about him? 40%? 80%? 99%?
No. Only when the 100% was reached it was a fact.

It's interesting that when the Magi came to Herod and asked where will the king of the Jews be born, Herod called the priests and they said Bethlehem.  Then Herod takes on killing all the baby boys.

Then, 30 years later when John the Baptist is down at the river in the wilderness, they come to him from Jerusalem and ask him, who are you?

They knew the Messiah was there, and they were looking for him.  They knew who he was.

What they didn't know was how he was going to win.

Meanwhile, many who met him for the first time knew.

I think it is possible to know before there is 100 percent verification.

Let's assume Jesus got scared and ran away before He got crucified. Or He died when He fell of a cliff. Yes all prophesies would still be right. Except the most important one. "Saviour".
Without crucifixion no salvation.
Sure after watching 50 miracles it all becomes quite obvious. But the Bible is kinda strickt in it's rules regarding true/false prophesies and prophets.

[WhiteWings]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.

It's a fact.

But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc

Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

What exactly are you answering Molly?

[WhiteWings]

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like  a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?

I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things.  There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah.  That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David.  In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.

They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired.  They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.

If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is  a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?

[Molly]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.

It's a fact.

But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc

Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

What exactly are you answering Molly?

I think the great falling away that is described could be a transition to another religion altogether, especially one where Jesus is not the Son of God but a minor prophet who will kill Jews and Christians when he returns.

As opposed, to another sect, denomination, or flavor of Christianity that some would consider heresy, like Protestant vs Roman Catholic.

[Molly]

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like  a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?

I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things.  There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah.  That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David.  In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.

They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired.  They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.

If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is  a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?

I'm not sure they really understood in what order these Messiahs might come or if, perhaps they would be one or two people.  I've read all kinds of speculation.  But, I've also heard that they do not currently read Isaiah 53 in the synogogue, either.

I just think they were oppressed, so they wanted the warrior.  But, meanwhile, the ones he called vipers knew who he was.  Satan knows who God is.  So, the masses were probably also misled, as well.

[WhiteWings]

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

These certainly are "terrible times".  I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques.  I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.

It's a fact.

But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc

Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

What exactly are you answering Molly?

I think the great falling away that is described could be a transition to another religion altogether, especially one where Jesus is not the Son of God but a minor prophet who will kill Jews and Christians when he returns.

As opposed, to another sect, denomination, or flavor of Christianity that some would consider heresy, like Protestant vs Roman Catholic.

Imo, the transition from Christianity to islam is far less worse than that from UR to ET.
Imo, denying Jesus is far less bad than turning Him into an ET monster.
Personally I would prefer daily reading I don't exist in all newspapers over reading I'm a child molestor once a month.

UR-->ET is a transition to another religion. Remember the Christmas thread? How many names the wife of Nimrod has? Same happened to Christianity when it got ETified. Take a pagan (Roman) religion change a few names and inject foreign doctrines (hell for example)

[WhiteWings]

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like  a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?

I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things.  There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah.  That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David.  In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.

They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired.  They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.

If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is  a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?

I'm not sure they really understood in what order these Messiahs might come or if, perhaps they would be one or two people.  I've read all kinds of speculation.  But, I've also heard that they do not currently read Isaiah 53 in the synogogue, either.

I just think they were oppressed, so they wanted the warrior.  But, meanwhile, the ones he called vipers knew who he was.  Satan knows who God is.  So, the masses were probably also misled, as well.

A Warrior King followed by a servant doesn't make sense.
The warrior will establish a everlasting kingdom but then gets replaced by a servant? Who will come after the servant to liberate the Jews again? Another warrior?

[WhiteWings]

Maybe it was because Jesus spoke about His kingdom and setting captives free.
Only mighty kings have such powers. So the issue the Jews had with Jesus perhaps was that they thought He proclaimed Himself a warrior while they expected a servant to appear first.


Besides of all the above I think they (Jewish leaders) were so entangled in their own laws, applying patterns overly strickt nobody ever would be capable to fit their ideals....

[Molly]

As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.

I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like  a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?

I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things.  There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah.  That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David.  In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.

They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired.  They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.

If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is  a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?

I'm not sure they really understood in what order these Messiahs might come or if, perhaps they would be one or two people.  I've read all kinds of speculation.  But, I've also heard that they do not currently read Isaiah 53 in the synogogue, either.

I just think they were oppressed, so they wanted the warrior.  But, meanwhile, the ones he called vipers knew who he was.  Satan knows who God is.  So, the masses were probably also misled, as well.

A Warrior King followed by a servant doesn't make sense.
The warrior will establish a everlasting kingdom but then gets replaced by a servant? Who will come after the servant to liberate the Jews again? Another warrior?

  It could be one person, for instance a warrior who ends up dying [in battle] for the nation.  I've heard that one described, too.

But, you can see the importance of knowing all the prophecies by heart, even if you don't understand them.