Prophecy

[Molly]

32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

--Joel 2:32





That would be the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem

You are missing this so badly that you aren't even bothering to read the scripture.  Why would someone want to escape from the heavenly mount Zion?  Why would there be survivors of the heavenly Jerusalem?  Why would they be sounding the alarm in heavenly Zion?  Why would they be fasting and trembling and calling on God?



 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
 
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
 
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
 
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
 
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
 
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
 
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
 
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
 
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
 
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
 
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
 
12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
 
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
 
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?
 
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
 
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
 
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
 
18 Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
 
19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
 
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
 
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.
 
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
 
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
 
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
 
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
 
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
 
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
 
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
 
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
 
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
 
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
 
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

--Joel 2

[Molly]

Where is America in Bible Prophecy?

By Walid Shoebat

For many years, it has been taught that in the Last-Days literally every nation of the earth – including the United States – will be utterly dominated by the Antichrist; there will be no place to escape from the dreaded Mark of the Beast; every last nation of the world will come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12 is usually used to validate the theory, as is the Apostle John. After all, the Antichrist will be given "authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation," (Revelation 13:7).

This would seem like an ironclad case for the Antichrist ruling the globe, including the United States, which he uses in his march against Jerusalem. It is this dilemma that caused many to believe that the United States will be taken over by Antichrist.

Before we attempt to solve this issue, it is necessary to clarify the dilemma. For this, we can ask a Jesus-style question: does the usage of the phrase, "the whole earth" and "every tribe, tongue and nation" in the Bible mean "the entire globe"? If so, then did Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:1 send his letter to every nation, tribe and tongue in the "entire globe"?

"Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." (Daniel 4:1)

"O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him," (Daniel 5:18, 19).

How about…

"Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom," (I Kings 4:34)

Did anyone visit Solomon from China?

How about…

"Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt," (2 Kings 17:29).

Did the inhabitants of every last nation of the earth have Samaritan gods in their homes?

How about…

"the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries." Isaiah 37:18

Did King Sennacherib of Assyria actually destroy all nations on the face of the earth?

How about…

"As I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth," (Daniel 8:5).

Did Alexander the Great occupy the whole earth?

So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:

Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle"
Matthew 25:32 "I will also gather all nations"
Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations"

Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:

"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves," (Zechariah 12:2-3).

In Joel 3:12 we find the same:

"Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations."

"The surrounding peoples" and "all the nations of the earth" are two references pertaining to the same people; "all the nations" and "the earth" is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since – in English – "the earth" tends to mean "the entire globe" and in Hebrew the word "Eretz" commonly means "the land" and not "the entire globe."

Then we have the culture. In ancient Hebrew, we find a grammatical construct that makes emphatic statements in order to convey a point, whereas using hyperbole is extremely common in eastern cultures. Elaborating on the exceptions would entirely blunt the impact of the statement. For instance, imagine a speed limit sign that listed the exceptions painted on it, "speed limit 55—except ambulances, fire trucks, police giving chase, etc." Thus, exceptions cannot be ruled out on the basis of exclusive language. This type of language is actually found quite frequently in the Bible. Throughout the prophecies of end-times the Bible is speaking of a regional war and not global (Ezekiel 36:4, 5, Psalm 79:12, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 28-32).

One common argument I always get is an objection that "the earth" is meant to be "the known world," that today's "known world" must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all "Four Beasts" in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of "the Great Sea" (Daniel 7:2). "The Great Sea" is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the "Great Sea" (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.

To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize "The Great Sea" as "the sea of humanity." In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to "The Great Sea" cannot be an allegory pertaining to the "sea of humanity" since every verse in the Bible refers to "The Great Sea" as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).

The Bible makes every effort to clarify that the nations surrounding Israel are the ones to which it is referring:

"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord," (Psalm 79:12).

Do Israel's "neighbors" include The United States? No. This is confirmed in many places in the Bible:

"Thus Says Jehovah against all mine evil neighbors that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit," (Jeremiah 12:14). The neighbors are all Muslim.

In the Bible, Antichrist "will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it" (Daniel 7: 23), yet several prophecies state that Antichrist will be confronted and will not take over the globe (Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 11:30, Ezekiel 28:7-8).

So where is the United States in the Bible? How many ever think about this, that perhaps in the end, the United States is mentioned fighting against the Antichrist. Daniel 11 tells us that Antichrist "acts against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory" (Daniel 11:39).

Who are these "strongest fortresses" [the strongest military might]"? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?
The answer to this is "No."

Why then do so many modern Western prophecy analysts insist that Antichrist hold the most powerful military might in the world? Which nations hold the strongest military might? Is it not the United States?

The text regarding end-times is clearly portraying what we see in Islam today. Even when we read that he declares war "against the strongest fortresses." What could that mean except what it plainly says—to declare war against the most powerful nations on earth? Jihadists already declared war on Europe and the U.S. And now with the Arab Spring clearly becoming an Islamic storm, we see that what we have said to you years ago in advance; everything is happening in accordance to a plan.

However, the West today seems oblivious to this fact. Who else could be as maniacal as Muslim fundamentalists to declare war on the powerful West? Who else is deceiving the West with false peace saying that 'Islam is a peaceful religion'? And it is all for the purpose of advancing their god, Allah.

This is exactly what we see today.

The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:

"Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas." (Ezekiel 28:7-8)

"They" pertains to these powerful nations and the term "terrible" implies to being "terrible in battle," "most powerful," "strongest fortresses." God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel. There have always been attempts to establish a One-World Government, yet they have never succeeded; far too many in the West fail to remember that God divided the nations after the Tower of Babel to never allow them to be one; even in the Millennium we will still have nations separated. This promise is as the rainbow for Noah.

Too many today read the Bible narcissistically. Many books have been written that place the West at the center of prophecy and interpret history through a Western-centric lens. Far too many Westerners have missed the obvious fact that the Bible is thoroughly Middle Eastern. In the Biblical worldview, Jerusalem is the center of the earth, not Europe or America. The biblical prophecies about the End-Times are no different.

End-Times Today is a complete study of Bible Prophecy that will ensure a proper perspective on end-times.



http://www.shoebat.com/2012/04/18/where-is-america-in-bible-prophecy/

[Doug]

32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

--Joel 2:32





That would be the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem

You are missing this so badly that you aren't even bothering to read the scripture.  Why would someone want to escape from the heavenly mount Zion?  Why would there be survivors of the heavenly Jerusalem?  Why would they be sounding the alarm in heavenly Zion?  Why would they be fasting and trembling and calling on God?

Why misrepresent what I said? Those who escape from the world, and the great city called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, a.k.a. Babylon, come to the heavenly mount Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem, mentioned in Hebrews 12:22.

The first part of Joel 2:32 was included in the scriptures from Joel that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost, after Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, where he was "made Christ."

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So according to Peter, the events on that day, when Jesus sent the Spirit to his disciples, and thousands of Jews believed, was a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy. The mount Zion and Jerusalem where deliverance is available is the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem, because the earthly city and temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. in a great conflagration.

As Isaiah foretold, mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up to heaven, when Jesus ascended to his Father.

Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

John said, in Rev. 21, that God and the Lamb are the temple of the heavenly Jerusalem. The promise of deliverance and safety is to those who are "in Christ." Not those in the earthly city.

Doug

[Molly]

So now you are saying the day of the LORD has already happened?

God often juxtaposes passages from different time periods and different events together, which is why people speak of double prophecy.

Have we already seen Joel's army of Joel 2?

I suppose you'll say we have.


Remember in Rev 21, the holy city Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.

[Doug]

So now you are saying the day of the LORD has already happened?

I think it is upon us; it comes "as a thief in the night." This age is called "night." [John 9:4; 2 Peter 1:19]

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." The sun represents the gospel. It is turned into darkness by false teachings, such as the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers, introduced in the early centuries of the church.

God often juxtaposes passages from different time periods and different events together, which is why people speak of double prophecy.

Have we already seen Joel's army of Joel 2?

I suppose you'll say we have.

I think the prophecy describes a vast army, which possibly represents many varieties of Christians, scattered in tens of thousands of sects and denominations.

"A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness..." I suggest this refers to spiritual darkness, the confusion about God's word.

"The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses..." Horses represent people with no understanding. [Psa. 32:9]

"And when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded..." The "sword" does not wound them; it is the spiritual sword of God's word; perhaps they have become immune to it.

Doug

[dajomaco]

Where is America in Bible Prophecy?

By Walid Shoebat

For many years, it has been taught that in the Last-Days literally every nation of the earth – including the United States – will be utterly dominated by the Antichrist; there will be no place to escape from the dreaded Mark of the Beast; every last nation of the world will come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12 is usually used to validate the theory, as is the Apostle John. After all, the Antichrist will be given "authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation," (Revelation 13:7).

This would seem like an ironclad case for the Antichrist ruling the globe, including the United States, which he uses in his march against Jerusalem. It is this dilemma that caused many to believe that the United States will be taken over by Antichrist.

Before we attempt to solve this issue, it is necessary to clarify the dilemma. For this, we can ask a Jesus-style question: does the usage of the phrase, "the whole earth" and "every tribe, tongue and nation" in the Bible mean "the entire globe"? If so, then did Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:1 send his letter to every nation, tribe and tongue in the "entire globe"?

"Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." (Daniel 4:1)

"O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him," (Daniel 5:18, 19).

How about…

"Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom," (I Kings 4:34)

Did anyone visit Solomon from China?

How about…

"Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt," (2 Kings 17:29).

Did the inhabitants of every last nation of the earth have Samaritan gods in their homes?

How about…

"the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries." Isaiah 37:18

Did King Sennacherib of Assyria actually destroy all nations on the face of the earth?

How about…

"As I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth," (Daniel 8:5).

Did Alexander the Great occupy the whole earth?

So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:

Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle"
Matthew 25:32 "I will also gather all nations"
Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations"

Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:

"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves," (Zechariah 12:2-3).

In Joel 3:12 we find the same:

"Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations."

"The surrounding peoples" and "all the nations of the earth" are two references pertaining to the same people; "all the nations" and "the earth" is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since – in English – "the earth" tends to mean "the entire globe" and in Hebrew the word "Eretz" commonly means "the land" and not "the entire globe."

Then we have the culture. In ancient Hebrew, we find a grammatical construct that makes emphatic statements in order to convey a point, whereas using hyperbole is extremely common in eastern cultures. Elaborating on the exceptions would entirely blunt the impact of the statement. For instance, imagine a speed limit sign that listed the exceptions painted on it, "speed limit 55—except ambulances, fire trucks, police giving chase, etc." Thus, exceptions cannot be ruled out on the basis of exclusive language. This type of language is actually found quite frequently in the Bible. Throughout the prophecies of end-times the Bible is speaking of a regional war and not global (Ezekiel 36:4, 5, Psalm 79:12, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 28-32).

One common argument I always get is an objection that "the earth" is meant to be "the known world," that today's "known world" must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all "Four Beasts" in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of "the Great Sea" (Daniel 7:2). "The Great Sea" is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the "Great Sea" (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.

To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize "The Great Sea" as "the sea of humanity." In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to "The Great Sea" cannot be an allegory pertaining to the "sea of humanity" since every verse in the Bible refers to "The Great Sea" as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).

The Bible makes every effort to clarify that the nations surrounding Israel are the ones to which it is referring:

"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord," (Psalm 79:12).

Do Israel's "neighbors" include The United States? No. This is confirmed in many places in the Bible:

"Thus Says Jehovah against all mine evil neighbors that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit," (Jeremiah 12:14). The neighbors are all Muslim.

In the Bible, Antichrist "will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it" (Daniel 7: 23), yet several prophecies state that Antichrist will be confronted and will not take over the globe (Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 11:30, Ezekiel 28:7-8).

So where is the United States in the Bible? How many ever think about this, that perhaps in the end, the United States is mentioned fighting against the Antichrist. Daniel 11 tells us that Antichrist "acts against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory" (Daniel 11:39).

Who are these "strongest fortresses" [the strongest military might]"? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?
The answer to this is "No."

Why then do so many modern Western prophecy analysts insist that Antichrist hold the most powerful military might in the world? Which nations hold the strongest military might? Is it not the United States?

The text regarding end-times is clearly portraying what we see in Islam today. Even when we read that he declares war "against the strongest fortresses." What could that mean except what it plainly says—to declare war against the most powerful nations on earth? Jihadists already declared war on Europe and the U.S. And now with the Arab Spring clearly becoming an Islamic storm, we see that what we have said to you years ago in advance; everything is happening in accordance to a plan.

However, the West today seems oblivious to this fact. Who else could be as maniacal as Muslim fundamentalists to declare war on the powerful West? Who else is deceiving the West with false peace saying that 'Islam is a peaceful religion'? And it is all for the purpose of advancing their god, Allah.

This is exactly what we see today.

The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:

"Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas." (Ezekiel 28:7-8)

"They" pertains to these powerful nations and the term "terrible" implies to being "terrible in battle," "most powerful," "strongest fortresses." God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel. There have always been attempts to establish a One-World Government, yet they have never succeeded; far too many in the West fail to remember that God divided the nations after the Tower of Babel to never allow them to be one; even in the Millennium we will still have nations separated. This promise is as the rainbow for Noah.

Too many today read the Bible narcissistically. Many books have been written that place the West at the center of prophecy and interpret history through a Western-centric lens. Far too many Westerners have missed the obvious fact that the Bible is thoroughly Middle Eastern. In the Biblical worldview, Jerusalem is the center of the earth, not Europe or America. The biblical prophecies about the End-Times are no different.

End-Times Today is a complete study of Bible Prophecy that will ensure a proper perspective on end-times.



http://www.shoebat.com/2012/04/18/where-is-america-in-bible-prophecy/

The first half of this post argues that the usa is not -in-bible-prophecy/
The last part of the post argues that it is, -in-bible-prophecy/
 

[Molly]

The first half of this post argues that the usa is not -in-bible-prophecy/
The last part of the post argues that it is, -in-bible-prophecy/

Not really.  He is saying that prophecy is all about the Middle East with Jerusalem at the epicenter. He is saying prophecy is Middle East - Centric.   So therefore the Antichrist of Daniel 11 is not going to rule over the West.  His rule will happen among the nations of the Middle East, and most of the action will happen there.


Then he says, this Antichrist will come against the strongest fortresses.

39 And he shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with glory and honor, and he shall cause them to rule over many and shall divide the land for a price.  Dan 11:39

He says, the strongest of the strongest fortresses here is America.


Who are these "strongest fortresses" [the strongest military might]"? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?
The answer to this is "No."


The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:

"Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas." (Ezekiel 28:7-8)

"They" pertains to these powerful nations and the term "terrible" implies to being "terrible in battle," "most powerful," "strongest fortresses." God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel.


He then points out that the Nations still exist at the end of Revelation.  We will see later that all the nations surrounding Jerusalem [which today are all muslim] will come into Jerusalem to inquire of God and celebrate Tabernacles after these great battles are done.  Tabernacles seems to be the one feast that survives the end times.

So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't',  the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.

You have to understand that although there is no caliphate today, muslim loyalties are always to Islam, above any country they might reside in, and once the caliphate is re-established, it will be the seat of gov't for muslims all over the world, no matter what country they reside in.  Islam is not just a religion, it is a law [Sharia], and a government.

[Molly]

I think it is upon us; it comes "as a thief in the night." This age is called "night." [John 9:4; 2 Peter 1:19]

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." The sun represents the gospel. It is turned into darkness by false teachings, such as the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers, introduced in the early centuries of the church.

But, wait a minute, now you are moving around in time.  First you say it all pertains to Peter preaching the gospel in Jerusalem, and, at that time, Jerusalem being raised up by Christ ascending to heaven.

Now you are talking about today.   Make up your mind.  Did it all happen already or not?  Did it all happen with Peter's speech, or not?

And you still didn't answer me why the Jews are sounding the alarm in Jerusalem, and weeping, fasting, trembling,  and calling on God to help them in Joel 2, if that is referring to the 'heavenly Jerusalem.'

[CHB]

 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

I am curious as to when anyone thinks this will happen and will we know when it does? Just what is "the fulness of the Gentiles"?

CHB

[Molly]

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

I am curious as to when anyone thinks this will happen and will we know when it does? Just what is "the fulness of the Gentiles"?

CHB

I answered this in a post a while back, CHB.  I'll go looking for it.  But, the point Paul is making there, I believe, is that there is an appointed time for the Gentiles, and, after that, an appointed time for the Jews [otherwise known as the Great Tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble.]

Paul plays games with the name 'Israel,' so when he says, therefore 'all Israel' will be saved, I believe he means all 12 tribes. He's telling us, in their appointed time, the Jews will be saved.


PS CHB, you are the one who taught me about the lottery--chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.  So once all the names on the lottery are brought in, the time of the Gentiles is over.

Paul  tells us these Jews who will be brought in during Jacob's trouble at the end times are beloved because of their fathers [even though they may not be the elect themselves].

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.  Rom 11

[dajomaco]

So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't',  the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.

When I read the whole of chapter 11 and try to imagine or even wish that any part of this chapter could refer to the usa.

I just can't do those kinds of mental gymnastics.
 

[Molly]

So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't',  the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.

When I read the whole of chapter 11 and try to imagine or even wish that any part of this chapter could refer to the usa.

I just can't do those kinds of mental gymnastics.
 

I don't know what you mean.  Chapter 11 of what?  You mean Daniel?

[dajomaco]

So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't',  the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.

When I read the whole of chapter 11 and try to imagine or even wish that any part of this chapter could refer to the usa.

I just can't do those kinds of mental gymnastics.
 

I don't know what you mean.  Chapter 11 of what?  You mean Daniel?

yes

[Molly]

The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.

3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts.

5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.

7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more.

8 The fishers also shall mourn, and all they that cast angle into the brooks shall lament, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish.

9 Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded.

10 And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices and ponds for fish.



16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he shaketh over it.

17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts, which he hath determined against it.

18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.



--Isa 19

[Molly]

Walid Shoebat

He's been raised up by God to be a friend of America [my opinion] at this very critical time in our history.  Listen to him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_hdPjFlU5I&feature=related

[Doug]

The first half of this post argues that the usa is not -in-bible-prophecy/
The last part of the post argues that it is, -in-bible-prophecy/

Not really.  He is saying that prophecy is all about the Middle East with Jerusalem at the epicenter. He is saying prophecy is Middle East - Centric.   So therefore the Antichrist of Daniel 11 is not going to rule over the West.  His rule will happen among the nations of the Middle East, and most of the action will happen there.

In that case, IMO, he is mistaken. Peter said the prophets wrote about the gospel, "the grace that should come unto you;" they wrote by "the Spirit of Christ which was in them;" and they ministered "unto us," that is, the saints who believe in Christ. Therefore, prophecy is gospel-centered. It is not primarily about national and political events of this world. Contrary to the dispensationalists, the prophets did not write for ethnic Jews in a future seven year tribulation, or for people in a future millennium. However there are many who unwisely reject or ignore these basic principles for understanding prophecy, which may be among the "keys of the kingdom" that Jesus promised to give to Peter.

Walid Shoebat's comments reveal his ignorance of the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy (in Isa. 2:2) about Jerusalem, and mount Zion, which said that they would be raised up to the top of the mountains, above the hills. 

Zechariah said,

Zechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Since the time that Jesus ascended to heaven, to the throne of his Father, the Jerusalem to which prophecy refers is the heavenly one, not the earthly city. The above verses apply to the heavenly city, the church, the "stone" mentioned in Daniel 2:35, that grows into a mountain, and fills the earth. This is why the prophet said "all the people of the earth" gather against it, Walid Shoebat included. He wrote:

So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:

Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle"
Matthew 25:32 "I will also gather all nations"
Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations"

Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:

"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves," (Zechariah 12:2-3).

In Joel 3:12 we find the same:

"Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations."

"The surrounding peoples" and "all the nations of the earth" are two references pertaining to the same people; "all the nations" and "the earth" is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since - in English - "the earth" tends to mean "the entire globe" and in Hebrew the word "Eretz" commonly means "the land" and not "the entire globe."
 
He wants to limit the scope of Zechariah's prophecy to the area around the earthly Jerusalem. Bad idea! He wrote:

One common argument I always get is an objection that "the earth" is meant to be "the known world," that today's "known world" must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all "Four Beasts" in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of "the Great Sea" (Daniel 7:2). "The Great Sea" is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the "Great Sea" (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.

To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize "The Great Sea" as "the sea of humanity." In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to "The Great Sea" cannot be an allegory pertaining to the "sea of humanity" since every verse in the Bible refers to "The Great Sea" as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).

He seems to want to deny what Zechariah said, which of course is unwise. Those who mistake the Jerusalem to which prophecy applies and ignore the prophecy of Isaiah 2:2, that said it would be raised up to the top of the mountains, which happened when Jesus was made Christ, make a gross error. The unfortunate Jews in the first century who rejected the teachings and warnings of the apostles, and became victims of the siege when the Romans compassed the city and destroyed it, when tens of thousands of Jews died, and many were taken captive as slaves, made a similar error. But Zechariah said, "all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces." All the theories that oppose the truth of the gospel will be cut in pieces by the sword of God's word!

He wrote, "In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness." [Zechariah 12:4] God blinds the minds of people who come against his prophets, and unfortunately, Walid Shoebat is one. The horses Zechariah refers to are people with no understanding. "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." [Psalm 32:9]

Doug

[Molly]

Zechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

This prophecy exactly fits what is going on in the middle east today.  What were they shouting in Egypt after the elections?  Something about marching to Jerusalem to retake the city.

That movie I posted from Iran is calling for a million martyrs  to retake Jerusalem and free Palestine.

You know, Doug, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

What kind of spiritual thing do you want to read into Isaiah 19?  It's describing exactly what is going on in Egypt today.

He wants to limit the scope of Zechariah's prophecy to the area around the earthly Jerusalem.

Exactly.  In other words, those very nations which want Israel wiped off the face of the map.  Those very nations which are becoming more radical by the day.  As Walid says, do they have to kill 8 million coptic Christians before you people see it?

He's not denying Zechariah.  Zechariah is describing what is happening there today to a T.  It is the perfect setup for all these prophecies to come true.  And, if you don't think Israel is feeling the heat, think again!

[Doug]

Zechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

This prophecy exactly fits what is going on in the middle east today.  What were they shouting in Egypt after the elections?  Something about marching to Jerusalem to retake the city.

That movie I posted from Iran is calling for a million martyrs  to retake Jerusalem and free Palestine.

You know, Doug, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Zechariah 12 has many connections to the New Testament and the gospel. It is not about political events in Iran, or Egypt, or any other country.

Zechariah 12:1-2
The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

There is a siege against the camp of the saints and the beloved city in Revelation too:

Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This prophecy and Zechariah's prophecy are about the same events, IMO. But the warfare of the saints is spiritual.

Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

The "burdensome stone" is the kingdom of Christ and his saints. The "burdensome stone" already fell on the Pharisees, and other Jewish leaders, in the first century.

Matthew 21
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luke 20:17-19
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Zechariah 12:4
In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

I commented on this in my previous post, but I will add that 2 Peter 2:12 compares false teachers to "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed."

"And I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah" may be compared with Acts 17:30, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

On horses being smitten with blindness, this was also the fate of unbelieving Jews in the days of the apostles. Speaking of them, Paul said, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." [Romans 11:7] Paul himself was physically blinded on his way to Damascas to persecute the church. The Lord said to him, "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." This could imply that he was behaving like a horse!

Zechariah 12:5-6
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

I interpret "the governors of Judah" to mean the apostles, as Jesus identified Judah with salvation, and the saints when he said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Jesus said, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" [Luke 12:49] It was the apostles who spread the fire to all nations. Jerusalem is inhabited, in her place in heaven. These verses could not very well apply to the earthly city, which was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Zechariah 12:7
The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Interpreting this in the light of the New Testament, the "tents of Judah" refers to the church, the "camp of the saints." They are the firstfruits; James said, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." [James 1:18] 

James also identified the tabernacle of David with the church, quoting a prophecy in Amos 9:11.

Acts 15:15-17
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Zechariah 12:8
In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

There is no way this could describe Jews who reject Jesus as the Messiah; it refers to faithful Christians. Paul said, "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" [Romans 8:31-32]

Zechariah 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This did not happen in 70 A.D. It does not apply to the earthly Jerusalem; there is no promise of God's protection for it. This promise applies to the saints, the heavenly Jerusalem. Here is a New Testament promise for the church:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This corresponds to the prophecy in Revelation.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The ones who pierced Jesus does not refer to Jews, especially, as it was probably a Roman who pierced his side with a spear. It refers to all Christians, as Isaiah spoke of Christ when he said:

Isaiah 53:6-8
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Every one of us, I think, is meant by "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced." Isaiah wrote,

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Zechariah 12:11-14
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

This describes the effects when God's Spirit is poured out on the church. It happened in the first century in the days of the apostles, but it is also foretold to occur at the end our age. It is what Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Molly]

Doug you are totally into what is called 'replacement theology,'  that the church replaces Israel.  I get it.  But I disagree.

As Paul tells us in Romans 11, the calling and gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE.

[Molly]

Does Psalm 83 describe next Mideast war?

Exclusive: Joel Richardson identifies line of prophecy thinking that's 'a total fantasy'
Published: 01/27/2012 at 7:39 PM



By Joel Richardson

Throughout the Christian church, an idea that has gained much traction in recent years holds that the next major Middle Eastern war is described in Psalm 83. According to this view, a contingent of Arab nations that immediately surround Israel will soon make an attempt to invade her, only to be utterly defeated by the Israeli Defense Forces. Many even believe that as a result of this great victory over her neighbors, Israel will literally come to occupy the nations of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. This growing view also holds that after this period of victory and peace, another massive war, this time described in Ezekiel 38 and 39, will follow. If one peruses several of the larger online Bible prophecy discussion forums, it will quickly become apparent just how widespread this view truly is among prophecy students.

But few of these students of prophecy are aware of the many problems with this view. For the past few years, I've been highlighting several of these problems, but recently, both Dr. Thomas Ice, the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and Pastor Mark Hitchcock, another very well-accomplished prophecy teacher and author, have also articulated several of the problems with the popular interpretation of Psalm 83.

The first problem is that most scholars reject the idea that Psalm 83 is even an actual prophecy, but is simply, "a national prayer of lament." Such a Psalm would not be considered a prophecy in the sense of that which was uttered by the biblical prophets.

Second, even if one does consider Psalm 83 to be a prophecy in the proper sense, the primary reason many have come to accept this two-war scenario is because of the differences between the nations listed in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 and 39. While Psalm 83 lists what are often referred to as the "inner circle" of nations that immediately border Israel, Ezekiel 38 and 39 lists a series of nations that form a larger "outer ring" around Israel including Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya and, many argue, Russia. But a closer examination of both texts reveals that it is far more likely that these two passages speak of the same war.

If one examines the list of nations in Psalm 83, few analysts include the nation of Turkey. Yet Asaph, the writer of this Psalm, mentions that "Assyria" (v.8) will join this coalition. When this Psalm was written during the reign of King David, the Kingdom of Assyria included portions of modern-day Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Analysts of Psalm 83 have included both Iraq and Syria in their coming invasion scenario, but never Turkey. Yet the reality is that the Assyrian Kingdom during the time the Psalm was written included quite a bit more of modern Turkey than Syria. This is significant, of course, because Turkey features so prominently in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 prophecy.

Another name mentioned in Psalm 83 are the Ishmaelites. Many analysts of Psalm 83 use this name to point exclusively to the nation of Saudi Arabia. However, many Arabs today trace their lineage back to Ishmael. Muhammad himself, the founder of Islam, believed himself to be a direct descendant of Ishmael. Depending on how one interprets the term "Ishmaelites," then, the inclusion of this term could point us to much of the Islamic Middle East and North Africa, including Libya and Sudan. These nations also feature prominently in the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecy.

Another problem with looking to seeming surface differences between these two texts is that many scholars and prophecy analysts believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39′s list of nations is anything but comprehensive. In fact, as Mark Hitchcock points out, the prophet concludes his list of nations by adding the phrase, "and many nations with you." In other words, Ezekiel only listed one major modern nation from each of the four corners of the compass so as to highlight the massive scale of this coming regional invasion. The following map represents the nations specified by Ezekiel revealing the likelihood of this interpretation.

The invading nations of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 Prophecy. Turkey: north, Iran: east, Sudan: south, and Libya: West.

In the end, if one understands Ezekiel 38 and 39 more accurately, it would seem to be pointing to a massive regional war against Israel including "many nations" not necessarily specified or mentioned within the text. And if we consider the nations mentioned in Psalm 83, if it is an actual prophecy, then it is also far more likely to be speaking of a much larger invasion than most students of prophecy have understood it.

Beyond this, Mark Hitchcock also lists several more similarities between these two texts, further suggesting that they are ultimately pointing to a singular war:

Both texts speak of a plan coming into the minds of the participants or the leader to invade Israel (Psalm 83:4,5; Ezekiel 38:10).

Both texts speak of the purpose of the invasion to wipe Israel out as a nation (Psalm 83:4; Ezekiel 38:9).

Both texts speak of the armies actually turning on each other and attacking one another while in the land (Psalm 83:9; Judges 7; Ezekiel 38:21).

Both texts speak of the judgment of God on the armies through fire (Psalm 83:14; Ezekiel 38:22).

Both texts speak of the result of these wars being that the invaders come to know the Lord in their defeat (Psalm 83:18; Ezekiel 39:7).

In the end, it is clear that tensions in the Middle East are very high. War could be just around the corner. We must pray that this is averted! The day will surely come when all of the prophecies of the Bible will be completely fulfilled. But for now, I am of the opinion that the scenario many students of prophecy are looking for, namely the soon victory of Israel over her neighbors and the subsequent occupation of those lands is a total fantasy. When Jesus returns, only then will genuine justice fill the region. But until then, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/does-psalm-83-describe-next-mideast-war/

[sheila]

Isreal IS MY FIRSTBORN SON...all mankind raised up into eternal life  in Christ is ISREAL.MY FIRSTBORN SON

   The testimony of Jesu7s Christ is the spirit of prophecy.

    All Isreal will be saved through the salvation of ALL mankind  which was bought with the blood of the Lamb. It is HIS LIFE THAT WILL NOT SEE CORRUPTION

   DO NOT BE AFRAID,I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST.I AM THE LIVING ONE,I WAS DEAD,AND BEHOLD I AM ALIVE FOR EVER AND EVER!


   THE ONLY BEGOTTON OF THE FATHER...BORN OF THE WILL OF GOD

   AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME  THAT I SHALL LOSE NONE   OF  ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME

  BUT RAISE THEM UP AT THE LAST DAY

  FOR MY FATHER'S WILL IS THAT EVERYONE WHO LOOKS TO THE SON AND BELEIVES IN HIM SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY

  THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE  THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING

[Molly]

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel:

Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it."
 
4 These are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:
 

5 "Thus says the Lord:
We have heard a cry of panic,
    of terror, and no peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
    can a man bear a child?
Why then do I see every man
    with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor?
    Why has every face turned pale?
7 Alas! That day is so great
    there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
    yet he shall be saved out of it.
 
8 "And it shall come to pass in that day, declares the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and I will burst your bonds, and foreigners shall no more make a servant of him. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
 

10 "Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord,
    nor be dismayed, O Israel;
for behold, I will save you from far away,
    and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease,
    and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you to save you,
declares the Lord;
I will make a full end of all the nations
    among whom I scattered you,
    but of you I will not make a full end.
I will discipline you in just measure,
    and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
 

12 "For thus says the Lord:
Your hurt is incurable,
    and your wound is grievous.
13 There is none to uphold your cause,
    no medicine for your wound,
    no healing for you.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
    they care nothing for you;
for I have dealt you the blow of an enemy,
    the punishment of a merciless foe,
because your guilt is great,
    because your sins are flagrant.

15 Why do you cry out over your hurt?
    Your pain is incurable.
Because your guilt is great,
    because your sins are flagrant,
    I have done these things to you.

16 Therefore all who devour you shall be devoured,
    and all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
those who plunder you shall be plundered,
    and all who prey on you I will make a prey.

17 For I will restore health to you,
    and your wounds I will heal,
declares the Lord,
because they have called you an outcast:
    'It is Zion, for whom no one cares!'
 

18 "Thus says the Lord:
Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
    and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city shall be rebuilt on its mound,
    and the palace shall stand where it used to be.
19 Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving,
    and the voices of those who celebrate.
I will multiply them, and they shall not be few;
    I will make them honored, and they shall not be small.

20 Their children shall be as they were of old,
    and their congregation shall be established before me,
    and I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their prince shall be one of themselves;
    their ruler shall come out from their midst;
I will make him draw near, and he shall approach me,
    for who would dare of himself to approach me?
declares the Lord.

22 And you shall be my people,
    and I will be your God."
 

23 Behold the storm of the Lord!
    Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
    it will burst upon the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
    until he has executed and accomplished
    the intentions of his mind.

In the latter days you will understand this.

--Jer 30

[sheila]

bEFORE THE CREATURE WAS SUBJECTED TO VANITY[ALL THE STARS FELL FROM HEAVEN] THE CREATURE HELD DOMINION OVER

THE FISH OF THE SEA THE BIRDS OF THE AIR,OVER THE LIVESTOCK OVER ALL THE EARTH OVER ALL THE CREATURES THAT MOVE ALONG THE

GROUND.

   THE FOREIGNERS THAT MAKE A SERVANT OF FALLEN  ADAM IS THE SIN OUR FLESH SERVES AS MASTER

   ALL WHO DEVOUR YOU ..BESPEAKS OF THE SERPENT'S SENTENCE TO CRAWL ON BELLY AND EAT DUST ALL IT'S LIFE...

   FOR 1 pETER 5;8 DECLARES YOUR ENEMIES PROWLING  AROUND LIKE A ROARING LION,LOOKING FOR4 SOMEONE TO DEVOUR

 
   THE ADVERSARY WAS BADLY MIS-TAKEN WHEN HE THOUGHT GOD NO LONGER CARED FOR FALLEN ADAM...IT IS WRITTEN..

   YOU SHALL BE CALLED SERCHED FOR..YOUR LAND MARRIED[LIKE A SHEPHERD THAT SEARCHES FOR HIS SHEEP ON A DARK AND CLOUDY DAY]

[eaglesway]

"Therefore, behold, I will allure her, Bring her into the wilderness And speak kindly to her. "Then I will give her her vineyards from there, And the valley of Achor as a door of hope. And she will sing there as in the days of her youth, As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt. "It will come about in that day," declares the LORD, "That you will call Me Ishi And will no longer call Me Baali. "For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, So that they will be mentioned by their names no more. "In that day I will also make a covenant for them With the beasts of the field, The birds of the sky And the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword and war from the land, And will make them lie down in safety. "I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, In lovingkindness and in compassion, And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD. "It will come about in that day that I will respond," declares the LORD. "I will respond to the heavens, and they will respond to the earth, And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. "I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"
(Hos 2:14-23)

"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. "He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. "So let us know, let us press on to know the LORD. His going forth is as certain as the dawn; And He will come to us like the rain, Like the spring rain watering the earth."
(Hos 6:1-3)

[Paul L]

Does Psalm 83 describe next Mideast war?

Exclusive: Joel Richardson identifies line of prophecy thinking that's 'a total fantasy'
Published: 01/27/2012 at 7:39 PM


In the end, it is clear that tensions in the Middle East are very high. War could be just around the corner. We must pray that this is averted! The day will surely come when all of the prophecies of the Bible will be completely fulfilled. But for now, I am of the opinion that the scenario many students of prophecy are looking for, namely the soon victory of Israel over her neighbors and the subsequent occupation of those lands is a total fantasy. When Jesus returns, only then will genuine justice fill the region. But until then, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/does-psalm-83-describe-next-mideast-war/

So many differences of opinion by those reading the same words of Holy Writ means just one thing, that we are not yet close enough to the "latter days" to fully understand how all these issues will culminate in events yet to come. The complicating factor in all this is the fact every Christian in the church wants Christ to come within their lifetime, this is why we see such inconsistency in interpretations of prophecy.

 Jer 30:24 tells us very clearly when prophecies will be clearly understood, until then we are as we always have been, on a wandering pathway with no clear end in sight.  The Christian Church often thinks it sees the end of the pathway only to discover it is just a rise to the top of the next hill over which it could not previously view the continuing pathway on the other side of the hill, and this pathway will continue to leave most all of us meandering until such a time is imminent for its' fulfillment, which almost certainly appears to not be in the generations of our lifetimes. It will occur in the generation that sees the messages delivered to the seven Jewish ecclesias of Revelation, the generation that sees real synagogues in those cities will be the generation that sees the "latter days", we are not that generation.