Prophecy

[Paul L]

I think we have to be realistic about this.  Israel is surrounded by a sea of Muslims.  If they are going to get any help in the region, it will be from a Muslim country.  It will have to be a Muslim that makes a peace treaty with them by definition, because it is the Muslims that they are at war with.

We do see these things unfolding before our eyes. 

What we need is to be Biblical not "realistic". The things we see unfolding before our eyes today is only good for so long as the day itself is long, in the middle east the unfolding of events can take a dramatic change in as little as a few days.

I've shown you how to trace the ancestry of the Northern King, it proves he is not Muslim, you reject it because for some reason you want him to be Muslim, I guess that is  because that is the way you see the events of the present day news cycle unfolding.

Every generation in the Christian Church that has come & gone, has presumed the end of the age would be in their generation & they would be the generation to see the 2nd coming of Christ, even the Apostles may have thought that. The eschatological landscape is littered with the failed predictions of the coming of Christ & who the so-called Anti-Christ will be, all this litter because every generation wants Christ to come in their lifetime so they won't need to plan for their end of life funeral. I'm more realistic, I look at the failed predictions of the past & examine the key components of the reasons for them.

The reason the Christian Church fails to comprehend the prophecies of Daniel & Revelation are twofold: 1- We are not close enough to that time to accurately understand the events as they will unfold   2- The prophecies are not written to the Christian Church, they are written to the 7 Jewish ecclesias in presnt day Turkey. These two reasons are why every generation to date has failed to see their viewpoint of prophetic events never come to fruition. It appears to me that there is at least another 100 years to go, maybe more.

[Molly]

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.  Luke 21:20

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  Luke 21:28


So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus.  Look up!

And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens.  The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews.  Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
 
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

--Luke 21


The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.

Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews.  Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.

[reFORMer]

Draw your own conclusions further as to the religious nature of this man's origins, but it is clear he must not be Muslim because has pitted himself against a Muslim nation (Egypt), beats them & is accepted by Jews in Israel as Messiah. He cannot be Muslim for Jews to accept him as Messiah. The reopening of the scroll of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy in Rev 1:10-11  occurs inside seven ecclesias  that were once part of Alexander's empire called the Kingdom of Pergamum, from which Pergamos draws it's name and is the seat of Satan. Rev 2:14 points to the context of the religious nature of this ecclesia with the discussion of "children of Israel" forced "to eat things sacrificed unto idols".  It appears as if the so-called Anti-Christ has his origins in Pergamos (it is the seat of Satan), it is within an area of Alexander's empire and he is accepted as the substitute Messiah for Jews living in Jerusalem who allow him to create sacrifices in their rebuilt temple after he has beaten the Muslim king of the South (Egypt).

Above I've emboldened your phrase concerning the antichrist being:  "accepted by Jews in Israel as Messiah."  Upon this you continue to add another assumption:  "He cannot be Muslim for Jews to accept him as Messiah."  I think the idea the antichrist will be accepted by the Jews is abased on the following statement of Jesus:  "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John 5:⁴³,KJV)

Here is another example of things that haven't even slowed down a number of people with whom I've shared knowledge concerning.  Before setting a fulfillment of prophecy future to our time now it should be searched out if it has been fulfilled somewhere in the past.  Fleeing for protection to Petra, which happened in the days Rome attacked Jerusalem, a friend of mine ignores, believing it is yet in our future again, because Jesus says, "Many first shall be last..." (Mt 19³⁰ Mk 10³¹.) 

Jesus statement above was fulfilled by Simon bar Kochba.  Nine months before the destruction of Jerusalem the Sanhedrin officially recognized Simon bar Kochba as the promised Messiah.  The Sanhedrin also struck coins with his likeness that had written on them that he was the Messiah.  More recent sources say it happened around 120 A.D. which change has possibly been done to assuage Jewish embarrassment.  (I don't use B.C.E. and C.E. either.  It is obvious error and bigotry in the light of 2 thousand years of C.R. [Common Reference.] )

I don't study this topic enough to deal with many things that are said.  I doubt I would have the time and stamina to answer very many issues even if I had the knowledge.  But I do have adequate knowledge to recognize most of the main assumptions of dipsinsational eschatology are irretrievably unbiblical.  That is, there is no Biblical quote directly stating in the same words what The Rapture Doctrine states.  The one exception to the best of my knowledge exists only in English translation.  "...in a moment" (1 Co 15⁵²) was the first point seized upon by my opponent in an 8 point list of major components of Rapture deception I previously posted in this thread.  This indicates to me there is some glimmer of recognition of what I'm talking about.

How hard is it to understand that interpretations and inferences are not the same as direct quotes?  As A. E. Knoch commended,  "Confine our confession of faith to the actual words God chose to make His revelation known."  As a conscientious Christian I don't have to believe doctrines that don't conform to this rule.  I previously commended the use of such books as (J., or,) D. Barton-Payne's Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy to discover at least some of what has been fulfilled.  Why keep riffin' on what a community of liars keeps repeating?

There are many books, even excellent free material that are more advanced in understanding.  Bill Britton is one of the best for dipsinsationalists, Richard Eby http://sigler.org/eby/  or Dr. Stephen E. Jones's The Laws of the Second Coming and other titles  http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/  to just name three.  The links were posted earlier on this thread.  Until you examine them you just don't know, do you?  What does it mean to believe a lie?

[reFORMer]

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.  Luke 21:20

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  Luke 21:28


So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus.  Look up!

And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens.  The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews.  Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
 
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

--Luke 21


The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.

Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews.  Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.

It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father.  If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false Messiah.  That it did means He is enthroned.  Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated.  Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus.  The word parousia means, "to be, to be present," rather than "coming."  Perhaps it could be sometimes said, "coming to be present;" but, that blurs it a bit.  The one like unto the son of man in Daniel, Who goes up to the one on the throne to recieve a kingdom is what this in the gospels refers.  Hence, "Goes to be present" would be more appropriate.  This displays "coming" or "going" hides more than reveals "the presence."

[Molly]

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.  Luke 21:20

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  Luke 21:28


So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus.  Look up!

And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens.  The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews.  Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
 
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

--Luke 21


The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.

Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews.  Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.

It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father.  If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false cMessiah.  That it did means He is enthroned.  Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated.  Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus.

Luke 21:20 most certainly does say Jerusalem surrounded by armies means its desolation is near.  In Dan 9:27 the Hebrew is referring to armies that will cause the desolation.  The 'abomination of desolation" is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem.

As far as looking up in 70 ad, what would they see?  Nothing.  Just like if I looked up right now.  Nothing.  To say otherwise is really getting a bit too esoteric.   This Look up passage refers to the Son of Man coming in clouds spoken of in Luke 21:27, the sentence just before the Look up sentence.

Nobody   saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of  Christ himself.

 
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
 
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

--Luke 21




16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 --1 Thess 4

[WhiteWings]

Nobody   saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of  Christ himself.

Is it different for anybody else.
Only, ONLY, Jews will be saved. Ever. Isn't that exactly what the the whole OT and NT is about?
Israel and Judah. Two sticks. Two flocks. etc etc

[Paul L]

And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens.  The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews.  Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.

And so I'll ask you again: What is your Biblical evidence those armies will be Muslim? And that the so-called Anti-Christ will also be? If you point to the present day news cycle, and this time next year you see most of Lebanon in Israeli hands, and the year after that even more Syrian real estate in Israeli hands than they already have today, what will your position be?

I'll point out something else that you may want to consider about whether you will even want to be living in this world as we get closer to fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. The entire world will be in so much turmoil long before the 70th week starts that all countries in the world will be living with severely depressed economies because their political leadership has become so morally corrupt, this condition will lead to food shortages everywhere long before the 70th week begins and warfare throughout the world will be mindboggling.

 I don't want to see my family relatives live a day to day subsistence lifestyle, because I knowthere will be those who will look back & see my picture in their family albums who will be reminiscing for the good old days when I was able to own a nice piece of property but they will be denied that privilege.

The world that is going to exist just before the rapture of the Christian church will be very unlike what you see today, there will be almost no freedoms of any kind, debasement of currencies will be so bad even payments in gold & silver will be almost worthless. In short, you really don't want to be in the generation that sees the rapture of the Body of Christ as spoken of by the Apostle Paul, even many within Christ's own Body may wished they had died a generation before, that's how miserable the world will become.

As for me, I'm giving God thanks for allowing me to live in a generation whereby I'm not living a day to day subsistence wondering when I will eat my next meal or if I can fill up my gas tank & take a pleasant drive through the hills & mountains where I live.

[Molly]

Nobody   saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of  Christ himself.

Is it different for anybody else.
Only, ONLY, Jews will be saved. Ever. Isn't that exactly what the the whole OT and NT is about?
Israel and Judah. Two sticks. Two flocks. etc etc

And, their companions.  Story of Ruth, remember?

The other 11 tribes aren't  'Jews.'

[Molly]

Good thing we are 'no longer a Christian country.'

 



Wednesday, 05 September 2012 11:50
Obama Prepares Huge Bailout for Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
Written by Alex Newman

The Obama administration is close to finalizing a massive $1-billion bailout for the increasingly totalitarian Muslim Brotherhood regime ruling over Egypt, according to U.S. government officials cited in news reports. The move is already drawing fierce criticism from opponents arguing that bailing out the new Islamist ruler, who is already working to bolster Egyptian ties with the communist Chinese dictatorship while becoming increasingly despotic at home, would be a mistake on multiple levels.

In addition to forgiving the $1 billion in Egyptian government debt, almost a third of its total burden, the administration is also working with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) — largely funded by American taxpayers — to secure a $5-billion loan for the regime. On top of that, U.S. officials are in the process of creating multiple funds and programs worth almost $500 million to help politically connected U.S. and Egyptian businesses.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/12720-obama-prepares-huge-bailout-for-muslim-brotherhood-in-egypt

[Molly]

And so I'll ask you again: What is your Biblical evidence those armies will be Muslim?

guessing, as all our predecessors.  But, God has placed watchmen on the wall who are obligated to announce what they see.  In past times, they thought others might be the antichrist, such as the Catholic church of the Inquisition.  Were they wrong that this was an antichrist spirit?  But, there is a man indwelt by Satan specifically cited in the scriptures who will usher in the end.  And, his description just happens to line up in the most specific ways, including a 7 year peace treaty which is broken half way through, with the Muslim Mahdi.  And, the country of Israel just happens to be surrounded by Muslim countries that are 1)growing increasingly hostile to Israel and 2) trending increasingly toward a revival of the Ottoman caliphate.  I think we would do well in such an environment to keep our eyes open and know the prophetic scriptures.



For you, brothers,  are not in the darkness, in order that the Day of the Lord might surprise you like a thief.  1 Thess 5:4

[Paul L]

Good thing we are 'no longer a Christian country.'

 



Wednesday, 05 September 2012 11:50
Obama Prepares Huge Bailout for Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
Written by Alex Newman

The Obama administration is close to finalizing a massive $1-billion bailout for the increasingly totalitarian Muslim Brotherhood regime ruling over Egypt, according to U.S. government officials cited in news reports. The move is already drawing fierce criticism from opponents arguing that bailing out the new Islamist ruler, who is already working to bolster Egyptian ties with the communist Chinese dictatorship while becoming increasingly despotic at home, would be a mistake on multiple levels.

In addition to forgiving the $1 billion in Egyptian government debt, almost a third of its total burden, the administration is also working with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) — largely funded by American taxpayers — to secure a $5-billion loan for the regime. On top of that, U.S. officials are in the process of creating multiple funds and programs worth almost $500 million to help politically connected U.S. and Egyptian businesses.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/12720-obama-prepares-huge-bailout-for-muslim-brotherhood-in-egypt

And this Molly, what you just posted above is exactly what I'm talking about when I mentioned in my last post that you do not want to be living in the generation that will see the rapture of the true Christian Church. It will be only the politically connected, the political proletariats, political elites, or whatever other terminology you care to tag them with, these are the only ones who will own anything of value. It will be governments who will dole out rights & privileges to their favorite constituency groups who will own anything of intrinsic value.

Just as bad as I described lifestyle in the previous paragraph, will be control of the flow of information through the media that will be extant in the generation that sees the rapture of the true Christian church. The media environment will be so "politically correct" that it may even be against the law for large sections of the Bible to be read in public, things in the Bible deemed offensive these days will be against the law in generations to come. Because so much of this PC stuff today is now being enacted into law, future generations may never get to read large portions of scripture inside our churches because of its' offensive nature to politically connected groups, it may be that this is the reason only 7 ecclessias get the message concerning the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.

The manner of media communications in the generation that sees the rapture of the Body of Christ will be dramatically different than the one we presently exchange information back & forth on. Governments will have the means to almost instantly discover the identity of those who make statements deemed offensive & against the law, this includes use of the Bible for disseminating information between Christians & others. Possession of the Bible itself will not be against the law, but how it is interpreted will carry legal ramifications. The generation that sees the rapture of the Christian church will also see a revolution in how the visual media is presented to the public, today we have big screen HDTV's which will be replaced by technology presently on the drawing boards that will be mind boggling if our generation could see forward  only 30 - 40 years. Things like three dimensional HDTV in geo-syncronous orbit 22,000 miles above the earth whereby the entire world's population can view the two witnesses proclaim their messages to the world. Yeah, you think big screen HDTV in your living room today is a big deal, wait'll you see the ones they have 50 years from now.

[Paul L]

I don't study this topic enough to deal with many things that are said.  I doubt I would have the time and stamina to answer very many issues even if I had the knowledge.  But I do have adequate knowledge to recognize most of the main assumptions of dipsinsational eschatology are irretrievably unbiblical.  That is, there is no Biblical quote directly stating in the same words what The Rapture Doctrine states.  The one exception to the best of my knowledge exists only in English translation.  "...in a moment" (1 Co 15⁵²) was the first point seized upon by my opponent in an 8 point list of major components of Rapture deception I previously posted in this thread.  This indicates to me there is some glimmer of recognition of what I'm talking about.

Fair points about the "rapture", same ones non-dispensationalists have been making for 150 years.

Just one question however: Do you believe in the concept that the seven ecclessias in Revelation are ages of the Christian church? Most dispensationalists believe this......just curious about your position on it.

[reFORMer]

Hi Reformer

The fundamentalist movement may have started in reaction against liberalism and secularization, but it has become a support bed for another gospel that mixes American culture with the faith of Jesus Christ (this is only my opinion). The fact that is that America has been exporting war and pillaging the economies of developing nations through corporations while espousing a propagandist message through the right that we are still a "Christian" nation and the "God and family" are at the core of our values. I think this is obvious to anyone who lifts the lid a little, and I love America- I am just not willing to stick my head in the sand.
 I understand that my perspective is controversial but I really don't think it is far- fetched at all. The Pharisees were, in my opinion, exactly what fundamentalism has become(by and large) in the U.S. today. They were sold out to Rome even as they maintained a mask of piety. They collaborated in the crucifixion of Jesus because they did not know the Father.

Anyone who carefully reads the prophets of Israel and the words of Jesus will understand that financial integrity, fairness, social justice and fair distribution of resources were FUNDAMENTAL tenets of the law, the prophets and the gospel. In My Opinion the majority of fundamentalists and Pentecostals have bought into a corrupt vision that ignores the pleas of Christ and the prophets as they build bigger churches and strive against one another theologically and organizationally rather than reaching out with a helping hand to the world around them.

I do apologize for stepping on anyones toes if I have- but this is what I think is happening.

Rather than fundamentalists being duplicitous, I think they've been duped by generalized God talk, a cultural gesture depleted of specific faith content and used by those who want to get elected.  Possibly many of these politicians are also sincere, though not theologians; but, once elected they discover the inertia of government is determined by a non-elected bureaucracy they can do little to change.  The suicide of the U.S. by a hedonist populace copying Christian celebration of ignorance and by globalist politicians wearing a culture appeasing God face cannot be prevented unless there is sufficient change in the people who bear the name of Christ.  We must come down off our self congratulatory closed mindedness and become lowly, needy seekers, turning from our sins to seek the knowledge of God.

The fundamentalists particularly had departed involvement in politics for more than a generation until some re-engagement since around 1980 along with the evangelicals.  The reason for their absence was the dipsinsational doctrine being repeated over and over in many of the posts in this "Prophecy" thread (which is really not about prophecy, only interpretations of scripture.)  Unaware of the trajectory scripture sets for transition into the Millennium, they have their own horror story factory cranking out men's evil imaginings.  After their terrifying musings they're so glad they won't be here.  They fatalistically believe the world belongs to the devil and things are getting worse and worse until what little influence they've had disappears with them in The Rupture.  Then the devil takes over completely.  I've actually encountered the comment sincerely made, "Why polish brass on a sinking ship?"

[WhiteWings]

Nobody   saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of  Christ himself.

Is it different for anybody else.
Only, ONLY, Jews will be saved. Ever. Isn't that exactly what the the whole OT and NT is about?
Israel and Judah. Two sticks. Two flocks. etc etc

And, their companions.  Story of Ruth, remember?

The other 11 tribes aren't  'Jews.'

They are.
I'll  show you when I'mbackhome

[Molly]

Egypt's Jihad Organizations Call for Christian Genocide
by Raymond Ibrahim • Aug 14, 2012 at 2:56 pm




According to today's issue of El Fegr, "Elements of terrorist, jihadi organizations distributed leaflets today inciting for the killing of Copts in Suez, Ismailia, and Upper Egypt, promising them [Copts] a tragic end if they do not return to the truth.

An image of a copy of the letter appears on El Fegr's website. Titled "An Urgent and Important Notice," it begins by calling on "all brothers and sisters" to "kill or physically attack the enemies of the religion of Allah—the Christians in all of Egypt's provinces, the slaves of the Cross, Allah's curse upon them…" It proceeds to promise a monetary reward for whoever helps "achieve Allah's rights against his enemies."

As a testimony to how safe the jihadi organizations of today's Egypt feel under the new president, the Muslim Brotherhood's Muhammad Morsi, the usual cryptic language is dropped, as the letter names contact points and even a mosque, Sheikh Ahmed Mosque in Kasfrit, where those interested should rally "after Friday prayers where new members to the organization will be welcomed."

This genocide has been called until Egypt's Christians "return to the truth," a reference apparently meaning that Egypt's Christians must either embrace "the truth"—that is, Islam, which they must convert to—or else return to the truths of the religion, which holds that Christians must embrace their subhuman dhimmi status (Koran 9:29).

Both forced conversions and dhimmi status for Christians are a regular feature of Egypt's landscape, past and present.

Subsequent news reports cite the growing fear and terror among Egypt's Christian population.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/2012/08/egypt-jihad-organizations-call-for-christian

[Molly]

Prophecy of Jesus' return to save the Jews [country of Israel] from the 'nations'=heathen=Gentiles who are invading.  Jesus will stand upon the mount of Olives and the Jews will accept him as their Messiah.



8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

--Zech 12





3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

--Zech 14





26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

--Rom 11

[WhiteWings]

Who are the jews?
It's quite simple. The original 12 tribes split up in 2 groups.
The 10 northern ones never returned from exile. THey are "not my flock"
The other  2 is what we today call Jews. Levites+Benjaminites

[reFORMer]

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.  Luke 21:20

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  Luke 21:28


So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus.  Look up!

And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens.  The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews.  Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
 
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

--Luke 21


The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.

Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews.  Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.

It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father.  If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false cMessiah.  That it did means He is enthroned.  Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated.  Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus.

Luke 21:20 most certainly does say Jerusalem surrounded by armies means its desolation is near.  In Dan 9:27 the Hebrew is referring to armies that will cause the desolation.  The 'abomination of desolation" is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem.

As far as looking up in 70 ad, what would they see?  Nothing.  Just like if I looked up right now.  Nothing.  To say otherwise is really getting a bit too esoteric.   This Look up passage refers to the Son of Man coming in clouds spoken of in Luke 21:27, the sentence just before the Look up sentence.

Nobody   saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of  Christ himself.

 
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
 
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

--Luke 21




16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 --1 Thess 4

You just didn't understand what I wrote.  I was still adding to it when you wrote a response, so it wasn't all there when you posted an answer.  I have a habit of adding to and changing what I wrote shortly after I first post it.  It just keeps coming.

I'm quoting my post of p.13, #303 below here again and then commenting to clarify . . .

It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father.  If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false Messiah.  That it did means He is enthroned.  Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated.  Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus.  The word parousia means, "to be, to be present," rather than "coming."  Perhaps it could be sometimes said, "coming to be present;" but, that blurs it a bit.  The one like unto the son of man in Daniel, Who goes up to the one on the throne to recieve a kingdom is what this in the gospels refers.  Hence, "Goes to be present" would be more appropriate.  This displays "coming" or "going" hides more than reveals "the presence."

Let me rearrange that a little . . .

Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated.  It was the sign that the Son of Man was "present" not, "coming," but, present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father.  Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false Messiah if the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened; but, because it did happen it means He sits enthroned.  Jesus' prophecies concerning this are recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

Scripture also did not say, "Jerusalem surrounded with armies," which is, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the "coming" (again, or a second time) of Jesus.  Though the KJV wrongly renders it "coming" 34 or 35 times,  the Greek word parousia means, "to be, to be present."  The one like unto the son of man in Daniel, Who goes up to the one on the throne to receive a kingdom is what this in the gospels refers.  Jesus was going up to be present, not coming down or back from some place else to here.  It was not a heavenly sign; but, a heavenly presence.  It was not an earthly coming; but an earthly sign:  Jerusalem surrounded with armies.

Is that more understandable?

[Molly]

Is that more understandable?

Not really. lol.

I understand you are trying to make it spiritual instead of literal, [or maybe happening in heaven instead of on earth?]  but I am reading it literally.

If the Lord says, when these conditions are present, Look Up, I will look up when those conditions are present, if they ever are.  I don't see anything wrong with the translations, and the Greek is quoting the Hebrew, Old and New Testament bearing witness to the same thing.

I read armies as armies.  I'm just about to write a post on the armies of Gog.


And, when you see Jerusalem compassed about with

"armies"

G4760
στρατόπεδον
stratopedon
strat-op'-ed-on
From the base of G4756 and the same as G3977; a camping ground, that is, (by implication) body of troops: - army.


then you know the desolation thereof is nigh.

[reFORMer]

The following versions have the sign in heaven:

Matthew 24³⁰ (New King James Version)  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven

Matthew 24³⁰  (New American Standard Bible)  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...

Matthew 24³⁰ (English Standard Version)  Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man


The following versions have the Son of Man in heaven:

Matthew 24³⁰ (Revised Standard Version)  then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

Matthew 24³⁰ (1901 American Standard Version)  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

Matthew 24³⁰ (New International Version)  At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...

Matthew 24³⁰ (Young's Literal Translation)  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven;

Matthew 24³⁰ (Concordant Literal Translation)  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.

Matthew 24³⁰ (King James Version)  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In bold above what does YLT, CLT and KJV say the sign is?  It is the sign "of the Son of man."  It is not, the sign in heaven.  It is the sign of the Son of man in heaven.  Not, the sign in heaven of the Son of man.  There are variants in the translations consulted, so I have to grant the possibility it could be the sign in heaven; yet, the most literal versions for which I have more respect do have the Son in heaven.  This is what I've discovered so far.  Until now I'd never consulted multiple versions on this phrase.  If the sign is in heaven we lose the connection with Daniel.  Then too, what is this sign?  I understand that the sign that Jesus was the real thing is His reigning from heaven.

Jesus' words are in reference to Daniel 7^13-14.  Jesus' ascension is in view, both in Daniel and Matthew.  The fact that His prophecies in Matthew 24 were fulfilled proved He was the Son of man to which Daniel referred.  Nobody could destroy God's Israel that He had created, disciplined and protected.  The one that had prophesied it said they would see Him, the Son of man present in clouds and glory.  His presence was before the throne of God, receiving dominion, glory, and a kingdom.  The people of Israel found out He was right and He was indeed the Messiah, the Son of man and the Son of God when His words were fulfilled.

Daniel 7^13-14 King James Version  [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

[Molly]

I don't see any difference between those translations.  They all look the same to me.


Jesus himself is spoken of as a sign--

Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
--Luke 2:34





When the disciples ask him what will the sign of the end of the age be, he answers them that his appearance in the heavens riding the clouds will be a sign of the end of the Age.


3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Mat 24



Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.





Jesus refers to himself more than once as the Rider of the Clouds spoken of in the Old Testament.  The Pharisees, and disciples, --because they know the OT-- understand what he is saying, that he is God, that he is YHWH.




Sing to God,

set his name to music!


Pave the way for the Rider of the Clouds,

set up for the sake of Yah,

exult before his face.

--Psa 68:4



It's important, also, to remember that before this he has warned them that false Christs will come, and if anyone tells them he is in the desert, don't believe it, or in the chamber, don't go there.  The sign of his coming will be in the heavens.

This is very important because the Antichrist will fool many that he is the Christ, using signs and wonders that would even fool the elect, if that were possible.


For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  Mat 24:27

[WhiteWings]

The difference is like punctation.

The sign of Jesus who lives in heaven.
Visible in the sky is a sign (made) by Jesus.

Is that what you mean Ref?
VERY carefull reading is required....

[Molly]

I still don't get the difference.

But, when in doubt use the Dick and Jane Bible:

The title of this passage is SIGNS OF THE END

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. All the nations on earth will be sad. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call. They will gather his chosen people from all four directions. They will bring them from one end of the heavens to the other.  Mat 24


The appearance of Jesus in the sky is one of the signs of the end of the age.

[Molly]

Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Everyone has trouble with these verses.

Dick and Jane Bible:


32 "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all those things happening, you know that the end is near. It is right at the door. 34 What I'm about to tell you is true. The people living at that time will certainly not pass away until all those things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will never pass away.


The generation that sees these signs will live to see the end of the Age.  That means it will all happen very fast.

Israel [founded in 1948] is the fig tree whose branches are now tender and putting out leaves.

[sheila]

 Isee 1948 Israel as sign in earth[flesh and blood can not please God]  Isreal,true Isreal is not about circumcision of flesh..but heart..in spirit.

   the seeing Christ returning on the clouds of heaven is the spirit being poured out on beleivers of Christ..latter rains..that cause the branch..fig tree to sprout

  and put forth leaves for the healing of the nations[all nations blessed]

   signs in heavens and earth..is just that

   the fruit is when He takes away ALL THEiR SIN[law was fulfilled by Christ] cast it far away..as far as the east from the west..it is Jesus return in the power and glory of the Father[coming on the clouds of heaven like lightening]

  to the saints that had been trampled on and overcome[gospel of salvation of all mankind]   unregenerated flesh and blood Isreal will not inherit[see 40 years perish in

 wilderness]  It is the generation of Christ/tree of life sprout that put5's out tender shoots and leaves[leaves cover and shade nakedness of sin from feiry displeasure

  of judgement

  the city divided into 3 parts from earthquake[once again shake heaven and earth]   jews,christian and muslims....christ=holy of holies..jews holy[law] Ishmeal's

 role as outer court nations...this is a sign in the earth/or flesh

  that stone ofthe revelation of Christ declared by the Holy spirit that grows is the mountain of blessing that fills the earth..reign/rain of Christ comes on the clouds

  of heaven and causes the tree with oil in itself[spirit/truth/life] to grow tender and put forth leaves..healing of the great wound of sin...a fig poultice..

  of which a sign was asked....how will I know I will go up to Temple of the Lord[Tabernacles]

  these are signposts to help you walk in the way[spirit]

   It is all Him..He does it all by His spirit