Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 188732 times)

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Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #275 on: September 01, 2012, 08:56:09 PM »

Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'


"lost"  [sheep of the house of Israel]

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

destroy- about 30 times in KJ
perish-about 30 times in KJ
lost (lose) about 26 times in KJ

Even the King James writers translating from the Latin Vulgate were having a difficult time with this rendering. They at least got it right more times than they got it wrong by about 2 1/2 times. Incorrectly understanding reflexive forms also created a problem for them as it is for your selective use of it. Selective translating of this word is what Mormons & other British-Israelism groups do to justify rewriting scripture in an attempt to abscond with the covenant God gave only to Israel.

I am not sent but unto

the destroyed sheep
the perished sheep
the dead sheep
the lost sheep

of the house of Israel.

Take your pick. I don't care.  Every translator I can find picks 'lost.'

Hanging onto to "lost" & not using it reflexively as the Greek intends, gives only 50% of meaning to the word appollumi. If Strong's Concordance is correct that this Greek word is used in the reflexive form, then the translators you speak of  should have written "destroy-lose" in all their Greek to English translations, but unfortunately they didn't have the foresight to see that their sloppy translating could become so badly corrupted that a lot of readers would interpret "lost" to mean loss of identity.

What happened to the Northern 10 tribes happened also to the Southern three, they lost their right to live in the land for their idolatry, but nowhere is there a scripture you can point that says they lost their identity. But that however doesn't stop the grandest strategy in history that ever been mounted to rob an entire nation of its' identity, and of God's covenant promises given only to the 12 tribes of Israel.

By the 4th century AD the Catholic church started the insidious process of Preterism whereby the Pope claimed the Catholic Church replaced Israel in all of God's promises & became the "true church". This is what you & Doug are presently bantering back & forth on. Doug has absolutely no leg to stand on in his arguments, you've definitely outclassed him on the issue & you've left him struggling to keep his head above water, good job. The remaining challenge for you is ridding of the rest of the  influences of Preterism in your thinking & getting the Christian church out of the parts of the Bible not written to it, principally in the area of prophecy.

Almost none of Bible prophecy is written to the Christian Church (body of Christ) except for a few references by the Apostle Paul. All of endtime prophecy is written to whom? Christ tells John when & where to deliver the message of the prophecies of Revelation, and to do it on the opening day of the Day of the Lord (Rev 1:10-11) as is clearly stated even by the King James translators as encumbered as they were with the Latin Vulgate.

The crux of the problem is that most Christian churches want to hang onto to their "churches" no matter where it appears in the Bible even if the context does not support it & they want to diminish Israel,  they even go so far as to say that the opening day of the last seven years of this age should be interpreted as being 2000 years long (church ages). Huh? That's a real stretch of the clearly worded math given by none other than Christ himself. If I as an engineer were to design a bridge or construct a building using that kind of math, trust me, you would never want to cross that bridge or take up residence in that building.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #276 on: September 02, 2012, 09:07:35 PM »
Paul L

With all due respect, I realize you feel Christians should not contend with one another over holy writ, but that is not in accord with what Apostle Paul commanded us to do, recall he commanded us the search the scriptures daily to see whether anything be true. It is when we brush aside Paul's advice that the Body of Christ runs into problems with polluting doctrines & teachings that result in weird oddball groups to rise up.


As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

If I am to read the above literally the Jewish Bereans read and understood the Old Testament.
That any thing Paul said about Jesus could be read in the Old Testament.

It is never wrong to press another member of the Body of Christ about a teaching, theory, etc. But I could agree with you that there is a point of "backing off", but only after a reasonable time of honest debate, don't forget the Apostles had many of those among themselves, it even caused Paul & Barnabas to part company over the intenseness of their differences.

Paul and Barnabas had a difference over simple human needs and frailties.
Not over a different interpretations of scriptures.

Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #277 on: September 03, 2012, 10:29:26 PM »
Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥasan al-Mahdī (Arabic:محمد بن الحسن المهدي) (born c. July 29, 869 (15 Sha'bān 255 AH), in Occultation since 941) is believed by Twelver Shī'a Muslims to be the Mahdī, an ultimate savior of humankind and the final Imām of the Twelve Imams. Twelver Shī'a believe that al-Mahdī was born in 869 and did not die but rather was hidden by God in 941 (this is referred to as the Occultation) and will later emerge with Isa (Jesus Christ) in order to fulfill their mission of bringing peace and justice to the world. He assumed the Imamate at 5 years of age. Some Shi'īte schools do not consider ibn-al-Hasan to be the Mahdī, although the majority sect Twelvers do.

Sunnis and other Shi'ites believe that the Mahdi has not yet been born, and therefore his exact identity is only known to Allah. Aside from the Mahdi's precise genealogy, Sunnis accept many of the same hadiths Shias accept about the predictions regarding the Mahdi's emergence, his acts, and his universal Khilafat. Sunnis also have a few more Mahdi hadiths which are not present in Shia collections.

--Wikipedia



Three times in Mat 24 Jesus warns of false prophets and Messiahs.



4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.



23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

--Mat 24



Twelver Shi'as cite various references from the Qur'an and reports, or Hadith, from Imam Mahdi and the Twelve Imams with regard to the reappearance of al-Mahdi who would, in accordance with Allah's command, bring justice and peace to the world by establishing Islam throughout the world.

Mahdi is reported to have said:

Shi'as believe that Imam al-Mahdi will reappear when the world has fallen into chaos and civil war emerges between the human race for no reason. At this time, it is believed, half of the true believers will ride from Yemen carrying white flags to Makkah, while the other half will ride from Karbala, in Iraq, carrying black flags to Makkah. At this time, Imam al-Mahdi will come wielding Allah's Sword, the Blade of Evil's Bane, Zulfiqar (Arabic: ذو الفقار, đū l-fiqār), the Double-Bladed Sword. He will also come and reveal the texts in his possession, such as al-Jafr and al-Jamia.

Shi'as believe that Jesus will also come (after Imam Mahdi's re-appearance) and follow the Imam Mahdi to destroy tyranny and falsehood and to bring justice and peace to the world.[15

--Wikipedia



In Ahmadiyya Islam, the terms "Messiah" and "Mahdi" are synonymous terms for one and the same person.



26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24



Why did Jesus say 'desert'?  What desert will the Mahdi appear in first?

[I already told you.]

Pay attention to your Lord, children.


« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 10:54:45 PM by Molly »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #278 on: September 04, 2012, 06:17:22 AM »
Wow Molly, your knowledge of Islam is impressive and very enlightening, thanks for that.


Hindus and Budhists, B'hai's and many other religions ascribe to various forms of "avatarism"- the idea that God, or the Universe, occasionally Incarnates in an individual. This is where the dalai-lamas get their authority, as teachers of those who believe they are avatars, or incarnations of God. As such, some of them(Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims Bhai's etc.) are willing to accept Jesus as an avatar of God, but not the avatar of God.

True Christians believe Jesus, as the only begotten Son, is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature"(Hebrews 1:1-3). Our gospel is the "light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"


(2Co 4:3-6)
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The god of this world, has many images, constructed to come along side the gospel, accepting the name of Jesus but NOT EXALTING IT ABOVE EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, or according Him His proper honor as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, the LOGOS MADE FLESH.

So, it is my opinion that as these days of deception grow darker there will be a manifestation of this spirit of anti-Christ (latin, vicar Christ against by being in place of). This manifestation will be embraced by the whole world as a MESSIAH, a MAHDI, an AVATAR of GOD. He will satisfy the RELIGIOUS & PROPHETIC REQUIREMENTS OF MANY FAITHS, and will so deceive many, empowered to do many sorcerys and deceiving works so that even the very elect might be deceived. He will not however, bow to ANY NAME OTHER THAN HIS OWN. Exalting himself above every god and so-called god and exalting himself as god and causing the whole world to ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AS GOD. I would expect this to be a quasi-universalist ideology, an "all roads lead to liberty"  figure uniquely tailored to fit these many different religious requirements, and the people will be so tired of wars and conflicts based in EXTREME FUNDAMENTALISM OF ALL TYPES, including American right wing fundamentalist Christianity(one of the greatest war-mongering deceptions in the history of the world) that they will receive gladly this NEW AVATAR. Perhaps a Pope or a Mahdi as prophet and a Jewish Jesuit Arab as THE ONE. Who knows :o) would make a good novel. Oh yeah, Tim Lahaye already did that didnt he?

Nevertheless, my point is, avatarism is a common thread that makes such a thing possible, if enough people believe it. Here in NYC I see shops devoted to the concept where the books and the icons of new age religion are sold to the growing market for these concepts that are being popularized from many different sources. the crowd awaiting a deliverer who will come "in their own image" is growing exponentially. The cartoon of American Christianity is helping them paint Christ as irrelevant, and as portrayed by American Christianity, He mostly is.



« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 06:24:31 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #279 on: September 04, 2012, 08:21:22 AM »
. . . and the people will be so tired of wars and conflicts based in EXTREME FUNDAMENTALISM OF ALL TYPES, including American right wing fundamentalist Christianity (one of the greatest war-mongering deceptions in the history of the world) . . .
Originally "fundamentalists" were so called because many across various demoninations felt a threat to basic Christianity with the flooding in of German higher criticism and their unbelieving theories.  Not that I'm naming all the fundamentals, but they are things like the virgin birth, inspiration and innerancy of scripture in the original documents, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, etc.

Being a Christian Universalist is just one of several major reasons I'm not acceptable to people who call themselves "fundamentalists."  That term was so taken over by the very fissiparious "dipsinsationalists" (nick named the "fussin' fundies") that the mainstream, separated themselves from them and took up "evangelicalism" as their identifying label.  Many are now concerned "evangelicalism" is losing its ability to represent a unified and single front since it tries to cover "the emergent church" groups, conservative demoninationals, the home church movement and the most of independent churches that are charismatic.  To speak of fundamentalists today, know there's a geater weight of dipsinsationalists in the term proportionally than there is for those in the "evangelical" label.

What I don't understand is why you say, "American right wing fundamentalist Christianity [is](one of the greatest war-mongering deceptions in the history of the world)" when, for one thing, they are probably as much as one third radical pacifists, with another twenty percent who are very inclined to pacifisim.  The idea you express is hammered over and over at us here in the United States through television, movies, magazines and papers, as well as books.  It is perhaps being pushed for several reasons.  We as a nation are being prepared for possible changes certain elements want to bring about.  They are seen as easy prey for a totalitarian gesture to subdue the rest.  Also, those taking over despise being revealed by Bible people as the moral sinkholes they are.

If the fussin' fundies are "war mongering," at all (much less the greatest war mongering deception in history)  then give me some examples.  I'm open to having my understanding changed; but, I understand them to be despised by the world and slandered more seriously and systematically than they or many others realize.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 05:00:05 PM by reFORMer »
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #280 on: September 04, 2012, 08:36:18 AM »
For now, rather than search and search some more to get the quotations, I'll just answer them.

There has been stated the assumption that the King James Bible is translated from Latin.  This is not so.  It is based primarily on the work of William Tyndale in the N. T. and Miles Coverdale in the O.T.  They both worked from the original languages as did the King James translators who consulted also many other sources.

The English Bible's from the time, based on the Latin, had become very corrupted and inconsistent with one another.  So there was an English Bible from Jerome's Latin that was prepared under John Wycliffe who died in 1384.  I believe that was by Hereford.  That was revised by Purvey and released complete in 1395. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 05:05:33 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #281 on: September 04, 2012, 09:23:43 AM »
There is really no comparison between the avatars of the other religions and the Mahdi of Islam.  The Mahdi [also known as the Twelfth Imam] will be a warlike political figure who will lead Islam to world wide caliphate [through conquest] where Jews and Christians will convert or die.

There is a frightening parallel between the Mahdi and the Christian Antichrist.  There are hundreds of millions of Muslims that believe that the Mahdi will come at the end of the age.

"He will be a descendant of Mohammed who will come on a white horse. He will deliver the world from the reign of the Dajjal. In the process he will conquer Israel and slaughter the Jews. He will establish a new Islamic world headquarters in Jerusalem, and he will rule for 7 years (and possibly 8 or 9 years, depending upon differing Hadith passages). His rule will end with his death.12"

The Mahdi will ride a white horse and many Muslims consider that the white horse of Rev 6 is describing the rise of the Mahdi:


2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
--Rev 6

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #282 on: September 04, 2012, 04:05:18 PM »
The Mahdi: Islam's Awaited Messiah



Among the Major Signs, the most anticipated and central sign that Muslims are awaiting is the coming of a man known as, "The Mahdi." In Arabic, al-Mahdi means, "The Guided One" 1 He is also sometimes referred to by Shi'a Muslims as Sahib Al-Zaman or Al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar which translated mean "The Lord of the Age" and "The Guided/Awaited One." The Mahdi is the first of the Major Signs. This is confirmed by Ibn Kathir, the renowned Muslim scholar from the eighth century:


After the lesser signs of the Hour appear and increase, mankind will have reached a stage of great suffering. Then the awaited Mahdi will appear; He is the first of the greater clear, signs of the Hour.2


The coming of the Mahdi is the central crowning element of all Islamic end-time narratives. So central to Islamic eschatological expectations is the coming of the Mahdi, that some Muslim scholars do not even refer to "the Minor Signs" as such, but instead, refer to them as, "The signs accompanying the Mahdi". 3 While there are some variations of belief between the Sunni and Shia' sects of Islam and while certain quarters of Sunnis reject him altogether, general belief in the Mahdi is not a sectarian issue within Islam, but is universal among most Muslims. According to Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America:


The coming of the Mahdi is established doctrine for both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims, and indeed for all humanity 4



http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch04_the_mahdi.htm





"Lord of the Age"  is a title for the Mahdi.



The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Cor 4:4



Coincidence?



He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thess 2:4

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #283 on: September 04, 2012, 09:55:03 PM »
For now, rather than search and search some more to get the quotations, I'll just answer them.

There has been stated the assumption that the King James Bible is translated from Latin.  This is not so.  It is based primarily on the work of William Tyndale in the N. T. and Miles Coverdale in the O.T.  They both worked from the original languages as did the King James translators who consulted also many other sources.

The English Bible's from the time, based on the Latin, had become very corrupted and inconsistent with one another.  So there was an English Bible from Jerome's Latin that was prepared under John Wycliffe who died in 1384.  I believe that was by Hereford.  That was revised by Purvey and released complete in 1395.

Translators of the King James used the 1590's Greek language (not manuscripts) editions of Theodore Beza which included his Latin version of the Greek& Stephanus's edition of the Latin Vulgate. Beza made no use of 5th century Greek manuscripts even though they were available to him. It was the 1870's before 2nd, 3rd & 4th century Greek manuscipts were discovered & became the basis for the Revised Std Version in 1901.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #284 on: September 05, 2012, 12:28:07 AM »
Iranian Spiritual Leader: Prepare For Environment That Will Bring Mahdi/End Times

http://www.thetrumpet.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tension is rising in the Middle East again. The civil war in Syria is worsening, Western sanctions on Iran are intensifying, large-scale military exercises by both Tehran and the West are on the cards. This is all worrying and cause for alarm.

Yet, it is an unprecedented, largely ignored national address by Iran's supreme leader that is most alarming. On Friday, a number of Iranian state-run media outlets ran stories highlighting remarks by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. In his address, Khamenei warned his people all over the world that Iran must prepare for war, and that we are now living in "the end of times."

More specifically, Khamenei warned of the imminent return of the Mahdi, or the 12th imam. "The issue of Imam Mahdi is of utmost importance, and his reappearance has been clearly stated in our holy religion of Islam," he said. "We must study and remind ourselves of the end of times and Imam Mahdi's era. … We must prepare the environment for the coming so that the great leader will come."

The belief of a returning Mahdi, or 12th imam, is a defining doctrine within the most populous group of Shiites known as Ithna Ashari, or "Twelvers." In addition to Iran's supreme leader, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also belongs to this influential group. According to Twelver theology, the Mahdi's return will be precipitated by planet-engulfing wars, the likes of which will destroy one third of the world's population, and another third as a result of widespread hunger, disease and social unrest. Finally, the destruction will be capped with the annihilation of the Jewish state and the killing of all infidels, after which the seed of Islam will be planted in the four corners of the Earth.

Here in the West, most people mistakenly ignore this theology and the depth of commitment Khamenei, Ahmadinejad and their followers have to it. This is to our own peril. Twelvers don't just believe the Mahdi will soon return: They consider it a personal responsibility to create the apocalyptic conditions that will surround his return.

Frankly, ushering in the Mahdi is the guiding principle of Iran's foreign policy!

As Joel Rosenburg, former aide to Benjamin Netanyahu, put it, "In order to bring about this Islamic messiah, the Mahdi, the 12th imam, Islamic leaders need to hasten his coming by destroying little Satan, Israel, and the great Satan, the United States. The leaders actually believe they need to create bloody carnage, the death of millions of people in order to create the conditions for the Mahdi to bring peace".

Indeed, as Khamenei recently told his people: "We must prepare for the coming. Since we consider ourselves the warriors of the 12th imam, we must fight."

Khamenei has created several centers in Iran devoted to the research of the coming of the Mahdi, and there's even an annual conference on Mahdiism. In 2004, during his tenure as mayor of Tehran, Ahmadinejad constructed a "grand avenue" in preparation for the Mahdi's return. When he became president in 2005, he allocated $17 million for a blue-tiled mosque in Jamkaran (south of the capital), closely associated with mahdaviat. Inside Iran, both Khamenei and Ahmadinejad have been quite literally preparing the place to which they believe the Mahdi will return.

Ahmadinejad's conviction is so strong, he even stood in front of a room full of United Nations leaders in New York and prayed for Allah to help him hasten the Mahdi's return—which he could only do by precipitating a holocaust-type event!

Citing Iranian news media, the Journal of Turkish Weekly last week reported that the regime in Tehran is even distributing a booklet titled The Last Six Months. According to Reza Kahlili (a pseudonym for a former cia operative in Iran's Revolutionary Guards), "the material admonishes the Revolutionary Guards and the Basij paramilitary forces that they must be prepared to do their duties during the expected war."

One can hardly overstate the influence of Twelver theology on Iranian national and foreign policy. "From redressing the gulf between rich and poor in Iran, to challenging the United States and Israel and enhancing Iran's power with nuclear programs, every issue is designed to lay the foundation for the Mahdi's return," wrote Scott Peterson.

Amir Mohebian, political editor of the Islamic Resalat newspaper, noted the effect of Ahmadinejad's religion on his leadership: "This kind of mentality makes you very strong. … If you think these are the last days of the world, and the Mahdi will come again, this idea will change all your relations." Putting himself in Ahmadinejad's shoes, Mohebian stated, "If I think the Mahdi will come in two, three or four years, why should I be soft? Now is the time to stand strong, to be hard."

Here's how Charles Krauthammer summed up Iran under Ahmadinejad not long after he was elected in 2005: "A Holocaust-denying, virulently anti-Semitic, aspiring genocidist, on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons of the apocalypse, believes that the end is not only near but nearer than the next American presidential election. … This kind of man would have, to put it gently, less inhibition about starting Armageddon than a normal person."

When you read these statements, you begin to grasp exactly what is at stake right now in the Middle East!

Problem is, too few are paying any attention to these facts.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #285 on: September 05, 2012, 05:33:59 AM »
Hi Reformer

The fundamentalist movement may have started in reaction against liberalism and secularization, but it has become a support bed for another gospel that mixes American culture with the faith of Jesus Christ (this is only my opinion). The fact that is that America has been exporting war and pillaging the economies of developing nations through corporations while espousing a propagandist message through the right that we are still a "Christian" nation and the "God and family" are at the core of our values. I think this is obvious to anyone who lifts the lid a little, and I love America- I am just not willing to stick my head in the sand.
 I understand that my perspective is controversial but I really don't think it is far- fetched at all. The Pharisees were, in my opinion, exactly what fundamentalism has become(by and large) in the U.S. today. They were sold out to Rome even as they maintained a mask of piety. They collaborated in the crucifixion of Jesus because they did not know the Father.

Anyone who carefully reads the prophets of Israel and the words of Jesus will understand that financial integrity, fairness, social justice and fair distribution of resources were FUNDAMENTAL tenets of the law, the prophets and the gospel. In My Opinion the majority of fundamentalists and Pentecostals have bought into a corrupt vision that ignores the pleas of Christ and the prophets as they build bigger churches and strive against one another theologically and organizationally rather than reaching out with a helping hand to the world around them.

I do apologize for stepping on anyones toes if I have- but this is what I think is happening.
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #286 on: September 05, 2012, 05:41:07 AM »
Hi Molly,

   I am sure the Mahdi is unique to Islam, and certainly unique in a different way to extremist Muslims. My opinion is that, even as the scripture says that the spirit of anti-christ will rise on a tide of promises of "peace and safety"- that there will be a figure who will arise as an icon of peace, and at some point claim to be an avatar of God, who will of course actually be a ravenous beast- and that he will appeal in a VERY BROAD WAY to may of the main religions of the world. I don't happen to believe that a polarizing figure such as a jihadist style Muslim could fill that role. I feel like it will be something that will appeal to East, West and Middle East alike. Something that transcends anything we are currently seeing. Again, that's just my opinion.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #287 on: September 05, 2012, 05:53:16 AM »
Hi Molly,

   I am sure the Mahdi is unique to Islam, and certainly unique in a different way to extremist Muslims. My opinion is that, even as the scripture says that the spirit of anti-christ will rise on a tide of promises of "peace and safety"- that there will be a figure who will arise as an icon of peace, and at some point claim to be an avatar of God, who will of course actually be a ravenous beast- and that he will appeal in a VERY BROAD WAY to may of the main religions of the world. I don't happen to believe that a polarizing figure such as a jihadist style Muslim could fill that role. I feel like it will be something that will appeal to East, West and Middle East alike. Something that transcends anything we are currently seeing. Again, that's just my opinion.
  No, of course, he won't look like a jihadist.   As a condition of his caliphate, for instance, he might promise the world a peaceful Islam, and, also, make a peace treaty with Israel.  This is what the Bible implies.  It also says that he is lying when he does this, because he breaks the treaty.

While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1 Thess 5:3

Islam is not just a religion, it is a political movement, a government, and an insistence on its way of life in a great many particulars that are distasteful to the west, [not to mention the convert or die mentality].

The jury is still out for me as to whether the West will adopt its own brand of totalitarian one world gov't.   But, I am becoming more and more convinced that end times scripture is all about the Middle East and that country, Israel, and that this man described in Dan 11, and in Isaiah as the 'Assyrian,' will be a Muslim.  But, I'll put more evidence on here about that in the days to come.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:59:21 AM by Molly »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #288 on: September 05, 2012, 07:12:44 AM »
eaglesway,

In your post#285 you open so many cans of worms.  When it's not so late and I'm not so tired, let me get back to you and whoever else reads this...   I want the Presence of God manifesting in power so much, sometimes to just sit on His lap, embraced by Him, that I have difficulty continuing in words, however correct.  Doctrine will never satisfy hunger for the substance of Spirit.  "The blanket is to short to cover and the bed to short to rest on."
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #289 on: September 05, 2012, 07:40:45 AM »
Reformer, all tho I get up in arms from time to time, I would much rather spend an hour in His arms than ten days in "enlightening discussion" :o)

The bed is indeed too short to stretch out on and the blankets indeed too short to cover our feet.

May your desire for His presence be manifestly fulfilled in an overflow of grace and peace.

"Oh that I had the wings of a dove, I would fly into His bosom and be at rest."

And he took them in His hands, and He blessed them and He broke them and after the multitude had eaten their fill, there were seven baskets left over.

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #290 on: September 05, 2012, 05:12:53 PM »

The jury is still out for me as to whether the West will adopt its own brand of totalitarian one world gov't.   But, I am becoming more and more convinced that end times scripture is all about the Middle East and that country, Israel, and that this man described in Dan 11, and in Isaiah as the 'Assyrian,' will be a Muslim.  But, I'll put more evidence on here about that in the days to come.

Dan 8:19-23 makes it very clear that the so-called Anti-Christ arises from inside the environs of Alexander's Greco-Macedonian empire. Verse 22 points out that it will be divided up by Alexander's four Generals Ptolemy took Egypt, Seleucus, took most of the old Persian Empire, Antigonus took Macedonia, & Greece united with the Kingdom of Pergamum in Asia Minor. Verse 23 discusses the rise of the "king of fierce countenance" who arises "in the latter time of their kingdoms". It was Seleucus who took the area of Assyria from which the "Assyrian" arises as discussed in Is 10:5, 10:24, 14:25, 19:23, etc. & Hosea & Micah. Therefore we look for the rise of Anti-christ from inside the environs of one of the divisions of Alexander's Greco-Macedonian empire.

Present day Syria draws its' borders from inside the environs of the old Assyrian empire, hence the name & it later came under control of Alexander's General Seleucus to the immediate north of Israel. It is from this area the King of the North in Dan 11:6 "end of years", launches his attacks on the king of the south which is the old Ptolemaic division of Alexander's empire. Israel is caught in the middle. The old divisions of the ancient Greco-Macedonian empire is at war with itself. Religious intolerance in the "end of years" seems to be an almost certain source of the battles between the Northern & Southern kings.

The best clue with regard to the religious practices of the King of the North is given in Dan 11:38 "In his estate he shall he honor the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not..." . The clue here: "...a god whom his fathers knew not..". This terminology has its' source from directly within the Bible, an example is Deut 28:64, and many other places where the God of Israel admonishes them for abandoning the God of their fathers, the three patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. If he is worshipping a "god" that his "fathers" (Abraham Isaac & Jacob) knew not", he must be an Israelite taken to idolatry.

Draw your own conclusions further as to the religious nature of this man's origins, but it is clear he must not be Muslim because has pitted himself against a Muslim nation (Egypt), beats them & is accepted by Jews in Israel as Messiah. He cannot be Muslim for Jews to accept him as Messiah. The reopening of the scroll of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy in Rev 1:10-11  occurs inside seven ecclesias  that were once part of Alexander's empire called the Kingdom of Pergamum, from which Pergamos draws it's name and is the seat of Satan. Rev 2:14 points to the context of the religious nature of this ecclesia with the discussion of "children of Israel" forced "to eat things sacrificed unto idols".  It appears as if the so-called Anti-Christ has his origins in Pergamos (it is the seat of Satan), it is within an area of Alexander's empire and he is accepted as the substitute Messiah for Jews living in Jerusalem who allow him to create sacrifices in their rebuilt temple after he has beaten the Muslim king of the South (Egypt).

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #291 on: September 05, 2012, 06:08:37 PM »
Paul, take a look at this article:  This gives a good overview of the Muslim civil war going on in the Middle East.


The Growing Iran-Turkey Rivalry

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Posted GMT 6-27-2012 18:35:39


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In a recent interview with RT (Russian TV) Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, while in Beijing, called on Iran and Turkey to be included in the upcoming international meeting dedicated to ending the Syrian crisis. It is obviously clear to Lavrov, as it is to others, that Iran and Turkey have conflicting interests not only in Syria but elsewhere in the region.

In 2009 Turkey showed support for the regime of Iranian President Ahmadinejad despite the controversial reelection, and in 2010 Turkey voted against sanctions on Iran in the UN Security Council. But, Ankara has recently agreed to deploy a NATO missile early-warning system in south-eastern Turkey, which has infuriated the Islamic Republic of Iran.

The crisis in Syria has helped to expose the growing rivalry between these two nations and it is becoming apparent that whatever "honeymoon" that existed between the two nations in recent years is over. Between the 15th and 20th centuries, the sultans of Ottoman (Turkish) Empire and the shahs of the Persian (Safavid) Empire battled over territory and dominance in the Greater Middle East region. The Turkish-Persian rivalry is, in fact, the oldest power game in the Middle East. It now appears that this historical conflict (with relatively same-sized populations of 80 million) has taken on an added dimension: a clash between the Sunnis and Shias.

The decline of American influence in the Middle East under President Obama has intensified the power struggle between Iran and Turkey with both attempting to fill the vacuum created by the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. Following the demise of the Ottoman Empire, Ataturk's modern Turkey abandoned the Middle East in favor of the West, and it appeared as if this rivalry was over. Iran's Shah Mohamed Reza also sought to modernize and "westernize" a decaying Iran. Turkey's Prime Minister Erdogan, who seemed to be bringing Ankara closer to Tehran has become increasingly resentful of EU posturing and has turned Turkey's foreign policy trust towards the Middle East. By becoming a Middle Eastern player once again, a resurgent Ankara has emerged as the natural challenger to the other key Middle Eastern actor: nuclear-power and hegemony-seeking Iran.

In the wake of the Iranian Islamic revolution, the Sunni-Shiite conflict intensified and with Iran's attempts to destabilize Sunni Gulf leaders and other pro-Western Arab states, Turkey has emerged as a counterweight to Shiite Iran revolutionary and hegemonic ambitions. The "Arab Spring," which brought the Muslim Brotherhood affiliates in Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya to power, and might do the same in Syria, is also in many ways a Sunni-Muslim revolution, and Turkey's Islamist Prime Minister Erdogan seeks to hitch a ride on it as the champion of Sunni-Islam. What we're seeing is an attempt by both Erdogan and Ahmadinejad to win over the Arab world.

Yahya Rahim Safavi, top military aide to the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei charged, according to Fars News agency that, "The Americans, Israelis, and some European and Persian Gulf nations, in particular Qatar and Saudi Arabia, have delegated Turkey the task of achieving their goal to weaken or topple Bashar al-Assad's government or make it surrender."

In Syria, a proxy war is being conducted between Iran and Turkey, with Iran arming its Alawite client state headed up by Bashar Assad of Syria, and Turkey aiding the opposition Syrian Free Army, comprised largely of Sunni-Muslim defectors from the Syrian army. Turkey serves as the key regional opponent of the Assad regime while Iran stands with the Assad regime and provides it with funds, arms, and military personal. It is also reasonable to assume that Hezbollah, Iran's Lebanese proxy, has played a supportive role in Assad's bloody crackdown against the largely Sunni-Muslim opposition.

If in Syria the conflicting interests of Tehran and Ankara are more glaring, in Iraq they are no less intense, albeit, through political if not military proxies. Although both Turkey and Iran opposed the Iraq war, they have supported opposing camps in successive Iraqi elections. Iran's dominance in Baghdad with the help of the Shiite-Muslim Nouri al-Maliki is countered by Turkey's ever closer relationship with the Kurdistan Regional Government in Erbil (Northern Iraq).

In the parliamentary elections of 2010, Turkey supported the seemingly secular Sunni dominated Iraqiya party led by former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, while the Islamic Republic of Iran backed the State of Law Coalition, which included Maliki's Islamic Da'wa Party, and other Shiite Islamist groups that came under the umbrella of the National Iraqi Alliance Bloc. Maliki, however, managed to stay Prime Minister despite coming up short by two seats (less than the Iraqiya Bloc) and by including the radical pro-Iranian Shiite Sadrists and the Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council.

The Sunni-Shiite fault lines are clearly visible in Iraq. Baghdad is allied with Iran in support of the Alawite regime of Bashar Assad in Syria, and has blocked the Arab League attempt to impose harsh sanctions against the Assad regime. Maliki has in fact labeled Turkey "a hostile state." Erdogan, for his part, has accused Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki of acting "self-centered" and inciting tensions between Iraq's Shiite majority and the Sunnis and Kurds.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu inaugurated his policy of "Zero Problems" with Turkey's neighbors. It has led to a short lived rapprochement with Iran and Syria that included a pact to prevent Kurdish demands for cultural and political self-determination.

In Lebanon, another area of contest between Shia and Sunni Islam for dominance, FM Davutoglu had this to say, "Lebanon is like a small Middle East, with many communities like Christian, Sunni, Shia, and Druze. Therefore, the survival of Lebanon as a stable, prosperous state is a reflection, indicator of regional peace." Iran however, has provided its Shiite co-religionists and especially the Hezbollah with major financial and military resources, helping Hezbollah to become the dominant party in Lebanon at the expense of the other communities including the Sunnis, Druse, and Christians.

Iran and Turkey compete for influence in Central Asia and the Caucuses, particularly in the bordering states of Armenia and Azerbaijan. The presence of 20 million ethnic Azeris in Iran, considered Southern Azerbaijan by the Baku (Azerbaijan's capital) government has caused a great deal of friction between Tehran and Baku. Iran has tried to stem secessionist tendencies encouraged by the pro-western Baku government. Since the 1990's, Iran has sided with "infidel" Christian Armenia in its conflict with majority Shiite Muslim Azerbaijan. Turkey on the other hand, has a close cultural and linguistic association with Azerbaijan, and a painful past with Armenia. Turkey has backed Azerbaijan politically, and has strong commercial ties with it.

Turkey's subtle appeals to pan-Turkism in Central Asia, supposedly in Iran's backyard has angered the Iranians who like Turks, seek to be the center and leader of the Muslim world. Both Turkey and Iran are pushing their model of an Islamic republic, and central Asia has become a focal point in this contest.

Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov's attempt to bring Iran and Turkey together on Syria and other issues clashes with the ambitions of the two Middle Eastern behemoths. Iran and Turkey are vying for leadership in the greater Middle East just like in past times, and it is unlikely that their interests will converge. One mustn't forget history -- it tends to repeat itself.

By Joseph Puder
Frontpage Magazine

http://www.aina.org/news/20120627133539.htm

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #292 on: September 05, 2012, 06:23:53 PM »
So, if we look at that overview, who is most likely to attack Egypt?

The likely suspects would be Iran, Syria, [Russia or Israel].

If Egypt is the king of the south, my guess is the king of the north will be Syria or Iran, or Syria as proxy for Iran and Russia.

I agree that it looks like Israel will be caught in the middle.



Quote
Dan 11:38 "In his estate he shall he honor the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not..." . The clue here: "...a god whom his fathers knew not..".

The other clue in this is that the god of forces is allah.  Antichrist may be a crypto-Jew but he presents to the world as a Muslim, and since he comes against Egypt, a Shia Muslim--that means he comes out of either Iran or Syria, which makes sense since he is called, 'the Assyrian.'

Yes, Israel will accept the peace treaty which he will then break and invade Israel.


Where do you see the Antichrist is accepted by the Jews in Israel as the Messiah?  I don't see that in scripture.  What I see is that he compares point for point with the Muslim Mahdi, who is the Muslim Messiah.

Turkey will undoubtedly be a big player, especially if the Ottoman Empire is resurrected.  Any caliphate would undoubtedly have its head kaliph in Istanbul, Turkey.  But, if that happens, Turkey will no longer be an ally to the West.

I still haven't figured out how your churches might fit into this equation.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 06:28:55 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #293 on: September 05, 2012, 09:57:13 PM »
JERUSALEM
Reading: Psalm 48 and 122

Jerusalem is looked upon by most people as a holy city. It is certainly a religious centre, and has been for centuries. Three great religious groups; Christians, Jews and Moslems; honour it; yet they all miss the true reasons for its importance. Their interest derives from a sentimental regard for the past, whilst the Bible reveals that the cities real importance still lies in the future.

Not that the past history of Jerusalem can be ignored. It is frequently mentioned in the Bible and many important events recorded in the Bible occurred there. Jerusalem became prominent when David, the most illustrious king of God*s chosen people, Israel, established it as his capital city. In the reign of David's son, Solomon, God declared that He had chosen Jerusalem to place his name there as we read:

"...I have chosen Jerusalem for my Name to be there...." 2 Chronicles 6:6

Israel were the people chosen by God and through them God declared that He would work out His purpose as revealed in the Bible. Jerusalem means 'City of Peace', yet throughout it's history it has experienced more war than peace. The city that is destined to be the capitol of the Kingdom of God was to suffer great calamity because of the disobedience of Israel. Jesus spoke of Jerusalem saying:

'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee ...... Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'' Luke 13:34-35

Because the Israelites turned away from God they were to be scattered among the nations. Their kingdom was destroyed when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and carried the Jews into captivity in the days of king Zedekiah. God revealed through the prophet Ezekiel that this was a punishment to the nation for its disobedience to Him, but the kingdom was to be overturned only until one came who had the right to rule over it.

O profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown....... A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it.' Ezekiel 21:25-27

The one who has the right to the throne of the kingdom of Israel is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is a direct descendant of David and therefore rightful heir to his throne. Furthermore, the angel promised Mary, his mother, prior to his birth:

'the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David*. Luke 1:32

Jesus has never yet sat upon the throne of David, thus the fulfillment of this promise must still lie in the future. This means that the ancient kingdom of Israel, with its capital and throne in Jerusalem, must be restored.

This is exactly what the apostles of Jesus believed and looked for. Shortly after his resurrection they asked Jesus:

'Wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?* Acts 1:16

However Jesus was taken up into heaven, but immediately two angels stood by them and gave them the assurance that Jesus would return again, saying:

'Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.' Acts 1:11

So we are clearly shown that Jesus will return to the earth. However Jerusalem was to be in Gentile hands until the time came for Jesus to return. Jesus himself prophesied saying:

'Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles [non Jews] until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.' Luke 21:24

Note the word 'until', this treading down of Jerusalem was not to last forever and the Jews will completely posses the city once again. Throughout the last century we have seen Jews going back to Israel in increasing numbers. In 1844 there were only 7,120 Jews in Jerusalem, in 1967 there were 195,700 and now Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands. Yet not entirely so for the centuries old Moslem mosque still stands on the temple site. Jerusalem must go through a time of trouble once again before true and lasting peace will come. Jerusalem will be the centre of an international crisis:

'For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.' Zechariah 14:2

It is at this time that salvation will come and Jerusalem will be saved:

'Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,' Zechariah 14:3-4

It is at this time that Jesus will restore the kingdom to Israel and sit upon David*s throne in Jerusalem. From Jerusalem, Jesus will reign over all the earth: 'The Lord shall be King over all the earth' Zechariah 14:9 and 'out of Zion shall go forth the law and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem'. Isaiah 2:3

That this is a true interpretation of what Scripture teaches is proved by many references in the prophetic Scriptures concerning this famous city. Jesus himself said 'Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God*s throne: nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.* Matt 5:34-35

In view of what has already been discussed, it is obvious that the great king is Jesus himself. The Psalmist speaks of the future glory of Jerusalem saying:

'The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, city of God'. Psalm 87:2-3

and

'Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King*. Psalm 48:2

The prophets of Israel, when referring to the glorious future which God has in store for the earth, speak of the important position which Jerusalem will occupy, as the following passage shows:

'For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy'. Isaiah 65:17-18

It is evident from the context of this passage that the expression 'a new heaven and a new earth* is used metaphorically to designate the order of things to be established in the Kingdom of God, in the same way as the apostle Peter uses the expression: 'Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness' 2Peter 3:13

Jeremiah, speaking of this same time declares:

'At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord: and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem; neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart*,* Jeremiah 3:17

Other prophets speaking of Jerusalem write:

'Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever'. Micah 4:7

'So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God, dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more ' Joel 3:17

Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously*. Isaiah 24:23

'And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles*. Zechariah 14:16

All these passages clearly indicate that Jerusalem is to be the capital, the seat of government and the centre of worship, when the kingdom of God is set up on the earth. Jerusalem is more than a city of sentimental associations whose future is of a mystical nature. It has a very real and glorious future:

'Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof*. Psalm 102:13-14

Jerusalem is also to be the centre for worship, the place where all peoples will come to seek and worship God. For this reason, all those who hold the true Bible hope will echo the words of the Psalmist:

'Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; they shall prosper that love thee. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces*. Psalm 122:6-7

Summary
For many centuries Jerusalem has been trodden down by other nations. This situation came about because of the disobedience of God's people, Israel. God punished His people yet foretold of the time when He would restore them once again. The fact that Israel is once again back in their own land and Jerusalem is also in Israeli hands is a sign that Jesus will soon return to set up the Kingdom of God. Jesus will return in power and great glory, the nations will resist Jesus, but in vain. They will be overcome and the law will go forth from Jerusalem, then at last Jerusalem will indeed be the 'City of Peace', a peace then will extend to fill the whole world. A true and lasting peace that the world has never known before.

http://www.biblelight.org/bs19.htm

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #294 on: September 05, 2012, 11:56:15 PM »
So, if we look at that overview, who is most likely to attack Egypt?

The likely suspects would be Iran, Syria, [Russia or Israel].

If Egypt is the king of the south, my guess is the king of the north will be Syria or Iran, or Syria as proxy for Iran and Russia.

I agree that it looks like Israel will be caught in the middle.



Quote
Dan 11:38 "In his estate he shall he honor the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not..." . The clue here: "...a god whom his fathers knew not..".

The other clue in this is that the god of forces is allah.  Antichrist may be a crypto-Jew but he presents to the world as a Muslim, and since he comes against Egypt, a Shia Muslim--that means he comes out of either Iran or Syria, which makes sense since he is called, 'the Assyrian.'

Yes, Israel will accept the peace treaty which he will then break and invade Israel.


Where do you see the Antichrist is accepted by the Jews in Israel as the Messiah?  I don't see that in scripture.  What I see is that he compares point for point with the Muslim Mahdi, who is the Muslim Messiah.

Turkey will undoubtedly be a big player, especially if the Ottoman Empire is resurrected.  Any caliphate would undoubtedly have its head kaliph in Istanbul, Turkey.  But, if that happens, Turkey will no longer be an ally to the West.

I still haven't figured out how your churches might fit into this equation.

Antichrist is derived from the Greek word #500 in Strong's Conc. The Greek word for anti is #473 which in various applications approximates the English word substitute, instead, contrast and various other applications intended to draw a contrast between two subjects. The two subjects in this case being the real Christ & a false Christ. We understand Christ comes as the long awaited Messiah to Israel, therefore the Antichrist must present himself as Messiah to the Jews but he is in fact a substitute Messiah falsely presenting himself as the true Messiah. He has access to the Holy of Holies in the temple, Dan 11:31 & 11:45 where he tabernacles in a palace in the glorious holy mountain.

Throughout  Dan 11 in verses 24, 37 & 38 the endtime king of the north is presented with  ancestry terminology "fathers' fathers" which I have previously pointed out in Deut 28:64 being in reference to one of Jewish ancestry. Therefore he must not be Muslim.

I'm being careful to avoid accounts about what Muslims have to say about their Mahdi, their 12th Mahdi is a pipe dream probably designed by Satan to throw off  endtime Muslim populations of the true origin of the King of the North who subdues Egypt & in so doing appears to have saved Israel from certain destruction by neighboring  Muslim populations in Egypt.  AntiChrist in effect becomes the Savior of the Israeli nation, they accept him as Messiah, allow him access to their holy temple as stated in Dan 11:45.

I don't have any "churches" in this equation. The 7 ecclesias of Revelation are Jewish synagogues situated in those seven cities of present-day Turkey. None of the messages of Rev 1:10-11 is sent to any Christian churches. Today there are no synagogues there, that is why the present make-up of the political affairs in Turkey must change dramatically, to allow for a friendly environment for the construction of those Jewish congregations in those synagogues.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #295 on: September 06, 2012, 12:06:52 AM »
Isaiah 19 - The Burden Against Egypt

A. God strikes Egypt.


1. (1-4) The Lord strikes Egypt by giving them over to civil war and submission to a cruel master.


The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst. "I will set Egyptians against Egyptians; everyone will fight against his brother, and everyone against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. The spirit of Egypt will fail in its midst; I will destroy their counsel, and they will consult the idols and the charmers, the mediums and the sorcerers. And the Egyptians I will give into the hand of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them," says the Lord, the Lord of hosts.


a. The Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt: Egypt was one of the great powers of the ancient world, and being situated immediately to the south of Israel, it was an empire that Israel constantly had to reckon with. Many times Egypt had been the enemy of Israel, at times Egypt had been a refuge for Israel, and sometimes Egypt offered a tempting but ungodly alliance to Israel. In this chapter, the Lord presents both a prophecy against and for Egypt.


b. The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence: Egypt was known for its worship of many, many different gods. Through His hand of judgment, the Lord will "knock over" these many different gods.


i. "In Isaiah's day there was no other nation on earth that was so much in the grip of superstition and filthy idolatry as Egypt. Apes, cats, frogs, crocodiles, lizards - everything was venerated by them." (Bultema)


ii. At the time of the Exodus, when the Pharaoh of Egypt would not release the children of Israel from their captivity, the Lord also made the idols of Egypt to totter at His presence. He directed each of the plagues against a particular idol of Egypt. He knocked over the god Khnum, the guardian of the Nile, the god Hapi, the spirit of the Nile, and the god Osiris (who had the Nile as his bloodstream), when the waters were turned to blood. He knocked over the goddess Heqt, the frog-goddess of fertility, with the plague of frogs. He knocked over the goddess Hathor, a cow-like mother goddess, with the plague on livestock. He knocked over the god Imhotep, the god of medicine, with the plague of boils. He knocked over the god Nut, the sky goddess, with the plague of hail. He knocked over the whole system of Egyptian worship of their gods with loathsome lice and swarms of insects. He knocked over the god Seth, thought to be the protector of crops, with the plague of locusts. He knocked over the god Ra, thought to be the sun god, with the plague of darkness. He knocked over Osiris, the Egyptian god thought to be the giver of life, and the supposed deity of Pharaoh himself, with the plague against the firstborn. God made all the idols of Egypt to totter at His presence before, and Isaiah tells us He will do it again!


c. I will set Egyptians against Egyptians: Isaiah prophesies a coming civil war in Egypt, which was indirectly the hand of God's judgment against them. "Not many years after this time it was divided into twelve several kingdoms, between whom there were many and cruel wars, as is related by the historians of those times." (Poole)


d. I will destroy their counsel, and they will consult the idols and the charmers: When a nation is under the judgment of God, He often seems to "remove" sound counsel and wisdom from their leaders, and they turn to vain, pagan things for wisdom instead (idols and the charmers).


i. "Egypt was renowned for her class of wise men (1 Kings 4:30), but they would not be able to cope with this judgment from the Lord." (Wolf)


e. The Egyptians I will give into the hand of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them: God may judge a nation through their leadership in two ways. First, by removing competent leadership (I will destroy their counsel). Second, by giving them cruel and oppressive rulers. This is a curse and a judgment to any people!


2. (5-10) The Lord strikes Egypt by drying up the Nile, thus wrecking their economy.


The waters will fail from the sea, and the river will be wasted and dried up. The rivers will turn foul; the brooks of defense will be emptied and dried up; the reeds and rushes will wither. The papyrus reeds by the River, by the mouth of the River, and everything sown by the River, will wither, be driven away, and be no more. The fishermen also will mourn; all those will lament who cast hooks into the River, and they will languish who spread nets on the waters. Moreover those who work in fine flax and those who weave fine fabric will be ashamed; and its foundations will be broken. All who make wages will be troubled of soul.


a. The river will be wasted and dried up: The Nile River was the key to Egypt's agriculture and economy. For it to suffer a severe drought or lowering would have a devastating effect on the lives of Egyptians. God promises this will happen as a judgment against Egypt.


b. Therefore, the workers cry out: the fishermen also will mourn . . . they will languish who spread nets on the waters . . . those who weave fine fabric will be ashamed . . . all who make wages will be troubled of soul.


3. (11-15) The Lord strikes Egypt by sending them with foolish counsel.


Surely the princes of Zoan are fools; Pharaoh's wise counselors give foolish counsel. How do you say to Pharaoh, "I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?" Where are they? Where are your wise men? Let them tell you now, and let them know what the Lord of hosts has purposed against Egypt. The princes of Zoan have become fools; the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also deluded Egypt, those who are the mainstay of its tribes. The Lord has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst; and they have caused Egypt to err in all her work, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit. Neither will there be any work for Egypt, which the head or tail, palm branch or bulrush, may do.


a. Surely the princes of Zoan are fools; Pharaoh's wise counselors give foolish counsel: As the Lord strikes Egypt, not only does He give them cruel rulers, but He also gives those cruel rulers foolish counsel.


b. Where are your wise men? Let them tell you now, and let them know what the Lord of hosts has purposed against Egypt: Here, the Lord reminds us of what true wisdom is. It is knowing what the Lord of hosts has purposed. True wisdom isn't knowing all kind of facts and plans and strategies. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (Proverbs 9:10).


4. (16-17) When God strikes Egypt, there will be terror among the people.


In that day Egypt will be like women, and will be afraid and fear because of the waving of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which He waves over it. And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts which He has determined against it.


a. Because of the waving of the hand of the Lord of hosts: All the Lord will need to do is to wave His hand, and the people of Egypt will respond in terror, they will be afraid and fear.


b. The land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt: This is a switch! For thousands of years, the land of Judah lay submissively in the shadow of the great Egyptian Empire. The Lord prophesies a day when Judah will be more mighty than Egypt, and the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt. Of course, this is fulfilled today, when Israel has military superiority over Egypt.


B. God saves Egypt


1. (18-22) Egypt turns to the Lord.


In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the Lord of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction. In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border. And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. Then the Lord will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the Lord and perform it. And the Lord will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the Lord, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.


a. Five cities in the land of Egypt will become more identified with the Lord than with Egypt. A better translation of the phrase City of Destruction may be, City of the Sun, which was a well known Egyptian city known as Heliopolis.


b. Egypt will worship the Lord, with an altar to the Lord, and will memorialize God's great works with a pillar to the Lord. When Egypt is brought under this oppression, they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and then He will send them a Savior and a Mighty one, and He will deliver them.


i. "In the time of the Maccabees, the high priest Onias IV was forced to flee to Egypt, and there he built a temple that was similar to the one in Jerusalem. Some commentators relate the 'altar' of verse 19 to this structure." (Wolf) This may relate to the City of the Sun prophecy, because the temple Onias IV built was in the province of Heliopolis.


ii. He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One: "The text says the Savior is a great one. Oh! I wanted a great Savior. A little Savior would not have answered my turn, for great sin wanted a great atonement, and my hard heart wanted great grace to soften it down." (Spurgeon)


c. The Egyptians will know the Lord in that day: There did come to be a widespread knowledge of the Lord in Egypt. In the days of Jesus, more than a million Jews lived in Egypt. In the early days of Christianity, there was a strong, vital church in Egypt for more than 600 years.


i. This prophecy may have additional fulfillment during the Millennium, but it certainly has been fulfilled in history. In the fourth century, the great theologian Athanasius, wrote this from Egypt: "The thing is happening before our very eyes, here in Egypt; and thereby another prophecy is fulfilled, for at no other time have the Egyptians ceased from their false worship save when the Lord of all, riding as on a cloud, came down here in the body and brought the error of idols to nothing and won over everybody to Himself and through Himself to the Father." (From On the Incarnation, cited by Grogan)


ii. The altar and sacrifice described most likely are fulfilled during the Millennium, when sacrifice will be allowed as a memorial of Jesus' great work, but never as atonement. "For just as restored Israel will bring blood sacrifices unto the Lord to keep in remembrance of the all-sufficient blood sacrifice of Christ, so this may also take place in Egypt on that memorable day." (Bultema)


d. He will strike and heal it: Whatever judgment God allowed, His desire was that people would repent and return to Him so they could be healed.


2. (23-25) An amazing peace between three formerly hostile enemies.


In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria; a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."


a. Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria: God promises the day will come when there will be peace between Israel, Egypt, and Assyria. There will be trade and travel between the three nations (a highway from Egypt to Assyria). In that day, the Lord will bless all three nations.


b. Blessed is Egypt, My people, and Assyria, the work of My hands, and Israel is My inheritance: What an amazing work of redemption! This shows that God's salvation will extend to the nations, and He will call forth His own even from Egypt and Assyria, not only from Israel.


i. It was powerful to say this of Egypt; it was almost unbelievable to say it about Assyria, the nation Jonah hated so much. "In Isaiah's day, Assyria was the one power feared by every little nation in the Fertile Crescent. The calculated brutality of the Assyrians probably made them more of an object of general hatred than any other nation of antiquity. The Egyptians, Babylonians, and Persians were all capable of inhuman acts, but the Assyrian record for callous cruelty is difficult to parallel." (Grogan)


ii. "Who, standing amid the terrors of the plagues, could ever have supposed that Egypt would be addressed as 'my people'? Who could have thought that Assyria, the tyrant persecutor, would ever be called 'the work of my hands'? Yet these are the trophies and triumphs of divine grace." (Meyer)


iii. "But Israel is always his inheritance. There he finds rest and home, for the Lord's portion is his people. Oh to know the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints!" (Meyer) We are also the Lord's inheritance; in Ephesians 1:18, Paul prayed that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. God's people are His riches and inheritance and glory!


c. From this passage regarding the conversion of Egypt, Spurgeon draws these points: 1. God's grace often comes to the very worst of men. 2. God's grace sends a Savior. 3. Grace changes men's language. 4. God's grace sets men on holy service. 5. God's grace teaches men to pray. 6. God's grace instructs men. 7. Grace makes even trouble a blessing to a man. 8. God's grace changes the relations of men to each other. 9. God's grace makes men to be blessed, and to be a blessing to others. (The Fruits of Grace)

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/2319.htm

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #296 on: September 06, 2012, 12:24:27 AM »
Quote from: Paul
Antichrist is derived from the Greek word #500 in Strong's Conc. The Greek word for anti is #473 which in various applications approximates the English word substitute, instead, contrast and various other applications intended to draw a contrast between two subjects.

The Bible gives a very specific definitinon for antichrist.


Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

--1 John 2:22


This makes Islam itself an antichrist religion.



 1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.



2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist



Quote
He has access to the Holy of Holies in the temple, Dan 11:31 & 11:45 where he tabernacles in a palace in the glorious holy mountain.

He has access to Jerusalem because he marches into it with armies, and takes the city by force, also known as the abomination that causes desolation.

Not because the Jews think he is the Messiah.  The people being judged at the end time are the Muslims and the Jews.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:33:15 AM by Molly »

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #297 on: September 06, 2012, 01:11:22 AM »
Quote from: Paul
Antichrist is derived from the Greek word #500 in Strong's Conc. The Greek word for anti is #473 which in various applications approximates the English word substitute, instead, contrast and various other applications intended to draw a contrast between two subjects.

The Bible gives a very specific definitinon for antichrist.


Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

--1 John 2:22


This makes Islam itself an antichrist religion.



 1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.



2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist



Quote
He has access to the Holy of Holies in the temple, Dan 11:31 & 11:45 where he tabernacles in a palace in the glorious holy mountain.

He has access to Jerusalem because he marches into it with armies, and takes the city by force, also known as the abomination that causes desolation.

Not because the Jews think he is the Messiah.  The people being judged at the end time are the Muslims and the Jews.

What makes you think the Bible is making a case for a Muslim Anti-Christ? Forget what the Koran states, quotes from the Koran are not found in the Bible, and their 12th Mahdi is nothing but a pipedream, this being the case the endtime king of the North must be something else, but can't be Muslim or the Jews wouldn't allow him to tabernacle in the holy mountain of their Holy of Holies during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week.

And sure the king of the North brings armies with him, he brings them into the city to prevent the Jewish population from being decimated by Egyptian armies of the king of the South, and at the moment this happens Israel accepts him as Messiah and allows him to sit inside their temple as Savior & Messiah. He doesn't enter the rebuilt Jewish temple by an act of warfare, he does it by presenting himself as their Messiah, clinging to them with "flatteries" as is explained in Dan 11:32-34. What are these "flatteries"? "See what I saved you from, now make me your God", or some such line of bohunk.

After The king of the North has fooled Israel into thinking he is their Messiah, he turns on them after the middle of the 70th week now using his armies to subjugate the population after previously using them to prevent Israel's subjugation to the Muslim king of the South. Do you see it here? Already Israel had been struggling to prevent a Muslim from the south (Egypt) from overrunning their country which is why they turned to the king of the North to become their protector, and he is their protector precisely because he is not a Muslim.


Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #298 on: September 06, 2012, 04:04:29 AM »
Quote from: Paul

What makes you think the Bible is making a case for a Muslim Anti-Christ?


Because when we compare the eschatalogical writings about the Muslim Mahdi and the Antichrist figure in the Bible, we see a lot of similarities.  You will have to take my word for the description of the Mahdi because I won't quote from Muslim sources here.





Both are called the deceiver.  2John 1:7

Both are going to do signs and wonders 2 Thess 2:9,10, Mat 24:24

Both attempt to deceive Christians and Jews Mat 24:24,  Mat 24:3,4, Mat 24:11, 2 Thess 2:1-3

Both claim to be Messiah Mat 24:24,25,

The Empire of the antichrist is an Empire that has suffered a head wound Rev 13:2-4

Both work false miracles 2 Thess 2:8,9

Both give away wealth

Both will ride a white horse Rev 6:2

Both attempt to change set times and law [Sharia, Constitution of the Caliphate]Dan 7:25

Both deny women's rights Dan 11:37,

Both rule over ten entities Rev 17, 12-13  [Plan for return of Caliphate, ten member council]

Both are the source of death and war Heb 2:4, Rev 9:11,

Both use military force Rev 13:4, Dan 7:23,

Both honor their god with gold and silver Dan 11:38

Both honor a god of war and advance his glory through war Dan 11:39, Hab 1:11, Hab 2:3,4

Both enter in a 7 year peace treaty Dan 9:27

Both deceive and destroy by peace Dan 8:25

Both break treaties after 3.5 years Dan 9:27, Isa 10:20,21

Both love war for booty:  Isa 59:2-8, Prov 1:11-16, Dan 11:24, Eze 38:12, Isa 10:5-7

Both desire world domination Rev 13:7, Micah 5, Rev 13:16, Rev 13:7,

Both lead a Turkish-Iranian invasion of Jerusalem Zech 9:13Eze 38, Eze 39

Both exalted as god, Isa 14:14, 2Thess 2:4,

Both are beings of light, Luke 10:18, 2Cor 11:14, Rev 8:10

Both are pride filled Isa 10:12, Eze 28:2,

Both are Lords of this world and the underworld John 12:31, 2Cor 4:4,

Both are called the son of the dawn Isa 14:12,

Both are afflictersDan 9:27

Both are Lord of demons Mat 12:24, Eph 6:12
"

Both desire Israel's destruction Dan 7:21  Rev 13:7  Re 11:7  Dan 11:37

Both occupy the Temple mount. 2 Thess 2:4,

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #299 on: September 06, 2012, 04:27:33 AM »
Quote from: Paul
After The king of the North has fooled Israel into thinking he is their Messiah, he turns on them after the middle of the 70th week now using his armies to subjugate the population after previously using them to prevent Israel's subjugation to the Muslim king of the South. Do you see it here? Already Israel had been struggling to prevent a Muslim from the south (Egypt) from overrunning their country which is why they turned to the king of the North to become their protector, and he is their protector precisely because he is not a Muslim.

I think we have to be realistic about this.  Israel is surrounded by a sea of Muslims.  If they are going to get any help in the region, it will be from a Muslim country.  It will have to be a Muslim that makes a peace treaty with them by definition, because it is the Muslims that they are at war with.

We do see these things unfolding before our eyes.  When God talks about the 'nations' coming against Israel, he is talking about the Muslim nations, otherwise known as the Gentiles, not about us because we are spiritual Israel, we are not the heathen any more.  The conspiracy of nations forming against Israel in Psalm 83 are all Muslim nations.  When God says all those not written in the book of life will wonder/marvel at the beast that comes back to life [the Ottoman Empire] he isn't talking about atheists, he's talking about Muslims.

Psalm 2 is talking about the Muslim nations who do not believe in the Son of God.



2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
 
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
 
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
 
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
 
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
 
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
 
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
 
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
 
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
 
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
 
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
 
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

--Psalm 2