Author Topic: Prophecy  (Read 231291 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #250 on: August 31, 2012, 06:31:35 AM »
Paul tells us what the gospel is.

Galatians 3:8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."


"All nations."   Does that sound like racism to you?  To me it sounds like God loves all the nations.   It sounds like God has a plan to bless all the nations.  And, that plan revolves around a blessing to a people within the nations.  With God, it's not about groups, but about individuals.  It's not about generalities, it's personal.  And, the intensely personal nature of our relationship with him is based on his love for his Son.


Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


We are talking about prophecy in this thread, and it is through the prophecy of the New Covenant that God intends to fulfill his promise to Abraham, "All nations will be blessed through you."


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

--Jeremiah 31

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #251 on: August 31, 2012, 06:51:37 AM »


The bride are the ones who will commune with God inside the New Jerusalem, also known as the sons of God.


24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
 
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
 
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
 
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

--Rev 21

New Jerusalem is the bride adorned for her husband.  Who is the husband?  Does He marry a literal city? Or is it the bride that goes back to Ezekiel 16.  This is why I ask, how many brides does God have?  I don't mean to put words into your mouth Molly, but it seems you would say at least 3. 

1) ethnic Israel
2) spiritual Israel (christians)
3)The literal city new Jerusalem

My answer is there is only one bride, and 3=2.  The New Jerusalem is the body of people.  It is where God dwells, which is where?  Yes in you, that is the hope of glory, that is the great mystery concerning Christ and the church, His bride.  Now this doesn't discount 1) ethnic israel, because as the wealth comes in from the nations they become part of the city.  There is no need for the temple in the city, because it is the temple.  What is the temple?  YOU, don't you know you are the temple of the living God.  We are a living temple jointly fitted together.

well, don't put words in my mouth, RHM.  I have more words than I can handle already. 

God calls you, the Gentile believer, 'the wild olive tree,' and he calls the Jews, 'the cultivated olive tree.'    One is wild and one is cultivated but both are olive trees. 


Revelation 11

"3 And I will give power to my two witnesses,
and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands
standing before the God of the earth."



Sounds to me like you are one of the two witnesses.   And, yes, there are two.



23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
 
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
 
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

--Rom 11

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #252 on: August 31, 2012, 11:08:29 AM »
Jesus will not return to the earth until the remnant of Israel [house of Judah] repents and petitions him at the end of the age.




38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.  Mat 23



(15) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. (1) Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. (2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [Hosea 5:156:2]



This will happen in the time of the Latter Rain.

3 Yes, let us know (recognize, be acquainted with, and understand) Him; let us be zealous to know the Lord [to appreciate, give heed to, and cherish Him]. His going forth is prepared and certain as the dawn, and He will come to us as the [heavy] rain, as the latter rain that waters the earth.  Hosea 6



At this time God will pour his Spirit on the remnant.



9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

--Zech 12



Jerusalem will become the praise of the earth.

I have posted watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; they will never be silent day or night. You who call on the LORD, give yourselves no rest,

and give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem and makes her the praise of the earth.
--Isa 62:6,7
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 11:13:36 AM by Molly »

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #253 on: August 31, 2012, 01:29:48 PM »
Molly, in your view, how many brides are there???  I'm not completely opposed to God being a polygamist, but the way I see it is there is only one bride, just like one new man, the dividing wall having been broken down.  I really am just curious to know, I'm trying to understand your POV.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #254 on: August 31, 2012, 03:16:46 PM »

Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'


"lost"  [sheep of the house of Israel]

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

You're selectively  focusing on how you want the Greek word to be defined so as to buttress a case for loss of national & ethnic identify.  I'll repeat it again, the word "lost" was carried over from the Latin Vulgate by the King James translators, just as they similarly carried over the Latin word "circ" for which the KJ translators inserted the word "church" throughout the new testament, this also does not have the same definition in Greek as it does in Latin. Your focus on "lose" is the reflex Greek which is not the base definition of the word. These are attempts to "christianize" everything that appears in Bible prophecy.

The way you are presenting "lose" carries the tone of trying to completely toss out the word "punish" so as to generate total focus on "lose" which is not part of the base definition of the Greek word. The punishment incurred by  the northern ten tribes was to be banished from the land of promise, they lost their right to live in the land and are banished from it until Christ himself forcibly regathers all of worldwide Jewry back to the land of promise.

Right now most of worldwide Jewry (the 10 northern tribes) do not want to go back to a war torn country of fenced in cities with threats from a nuclear Iran to wipe them all out, therefore only Judah, Benjamin & Levites are presently in the country, the rest of Israel remains scattered throughout the western world, self imposed "banishment" from the land of promise if you will, but it is actually an imposed punishment by God until the time is ripe for fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy when he regathers all of Israel even as it presently is against their will to do so.


Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #255 on: August 31, 2012, 04:01:05 PM »
Molly, in your view, how many brides are there???  I'm not completely opposed to God being a polygamist, but the way I see it is there is only one bride, just like one new man, the dividing wall having been broken down.  I really am just curious to know, I'm trying to understand your POV.

Just one bride.

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #256 on: August 31, 2012, 04:11:42 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Right now most of worldwide Jewry (the 10 northern tribes) do not want to go back to a war torn country of fenced in cities with threats from a nuclear Iran to wipe them all out, therefore only Judah, Benjamin & Levites are presently in the country, the rest of Israel remains scattered throughout the western world, self imposed "banishment" from the land of promise if you will, but it is actually an imposed punishment by God until the time is ripe for fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy when he regathers all of Israel even as it presently is against their will to do so

The ten northern tribes never called themselves 'Jews.'   Judah is one tribe.  The tribe of Benjamin and some Levites who returned from Babylon with Judah  and rebuilt the Temple would call themselves 'Jews' because they lived in Judea.  But, the other ten tribes were Hebrews, and Israel,  and Israelites, and Ephraim, and Joseph, never 'Jews.'

I can't imagine them ever calling themselves 'Jews.'   That is, if they knew who they were.  That is, if they weren't lost to history.



1 Kings 12:16

16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying,

What portion have we in David?

Neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse:

To your tents, O Israel:

Now see to thine own house, David.

So Israel departed unto their tents.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 05:20:27 PM by Molly »

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #257 on: August 31, 2012, 04:32:18 PM »
Jesus will not return to the earth until the remnant of Israel [house of Judah] repents and petitions him at the end of the age.


38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.  Mat 23


In the photo below, the children in the tree are at different heights. Depending on their position in the tree, they have a different view of their surroundings. In a similar way, there are several different levels of understanding the words of Jesus, and prophecy. We are each at different levels, and perhaps, some are in different trees.


Jesus often spoke of sight, and blindness, as a metaphor for understanding spiritual things, or not. He said to his disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." [John 14:7]

But this has a spiritual meaning. Philip questioned him further, and Jesus went on to explain that he was referring to the works that he had performed that they had all seen.

John 14:8-10
Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

When Jesus said to the Jews,  "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," I suggest that the meaning he attached to "see" is spiritual. Lots of Jews observed him on his way to the cross, but they did not "see" him in such a way that it lead to repentance, and understanding of what was occurring, and just how momentous an event for man's destiny his crucifixion would be. They had eyes, but saw not.

At Pentecost, when the apostles preached the gospel and thousands of Jews believed, then they "saw" in a spiritual way, because God opened their eyes, and they repented, and then they said of the apostles, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." They realized Christ was in them. And Jesus is still in his church today.


9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

--Zech 12


I have seen this quoted several times, as a proof text that ethnic Jews will eventually convert. No doubt they will, but that, I think, is not what the verse is about. When the prophet says "they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced" he is not referring to ethnic Jews at all. Because it was probably a Roman, not a Jew, who pierced Jesus with a spear. 

John 19
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Similarly, it was probably Romans who pierced his hands and feet with the nails, not Jews.

But the nationality of the persons involved is beside the point; the meaning of the prophecy is far more profound, as the words "look upon Me Whom they have pierced" have a higher spiritual meaning, that involves obtaining a knowledge of God, and believing the gospel.

Isaiah 53:5 NIV
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
       he was crushed for our iniquities;
       the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
       and by his wounds we are healed.

It is our transgressions that pierced Christ, as he died on our behalf, to take away our sins.

Doug
 

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #258 on: August 31, 2012, 04:51:45 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Because it was probably a Roman, not a Jew, who pierced Jesus with a spear. 

You do understand that conspiracy to commit murder is murder.  If a wife hires a hitman to kill her husband, she is just as guilty, maybe more so, of his murder as the hitman.   He might have pulled the trigger on the gun but he pulls it by proxy.



But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

--Mat 12:14

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #259 on: August 31, 2012, 05:21:27 PM »
Quote from: Doug
Because it was probably a Roman, not a Jew, who pierced Jesus with a spear. 

You do understand that conspiracy to commit murder is murder.  If a wife hires a hitman to kill her husband, she is just as guilty, maybe more so, of his murder as the hitman.   He might have pulled the trigger on the gun but he pulls it by proxy.


But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

--Mat 12:14

To fulfil the promises to Abraham, and the purpose of God, Jesus was killed like the passover lamb was killed before the Exodus from Egypt. It was prefigured by Abraham's offering of Isaac. Judas was one who had a part in it, as he betrayed Jesus with a kiss; the Pharisees, the priests, the Roman soldiers, Herod, and Pilate all had a part in it. But every one of us also has a part in it, as it was for us he died.

Below are some comments on Zech. 12:10 from Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary.

1. On whom these blessings are poured out. (1.) On the house of David ... The house of David is all summed up in Jesus Christ, the Son of David; and upon him, as the head, the Spirit of grace is poured out, from him to be diffused to all his members; from his fulness we receive, and grace for grace. (2.) On the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the common people; for the operations of the Spirit are the same upon the mean and weak Christians that they are upon the strong and more grown. The inhabitants of Jerusalem cannot influence public affairs by their powers and policies, as the great men of the house of David may, yet they may do good service by their prayers, and therefore upon them the Spirit shall be poured out. The church is Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem; all true believers, that have their conversation in the heaven, are inhabitants of this Jerusalem, and to them this promise belongs. God will pour his Spirit upon them. This is the earnest which all that believe in Christ shall receive; thus they are sanctified; thus they are sealed.

They shall look on me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him. Here,
   
[1.] It is foretold that Christ should be pierced, and this scripture is quoted as that which was fulfilled when Christ's side was pierced upon the cross; see Jn. 19:37.

[2.] He is spoken of as one whom we have pierced; it is spoken primarily of the Jews, who persecuted him to death (and we find that those who pierced him are distinguished from the other kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of him, Rev. 1:7); yet it is true of us all as sinners, we have pierced Christ, inasmuch as our sins were the cause of his death, for he was wounded for our transgressions, and they are the grief of his soul; he is broken with the whorish heart of sinners, who therefore are said to crucify him afresh and put him to open shame.

[3.] Those that truly repent of sin look upon Christ as one whom they have pierced, who was pierced for their sins and is pierced by them; and this engages them to look unto him, as those that are deeply concerned for him.


Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #260 on: August 31, 2012, 05:28:49 PM »
Doug, I don't technically disagree with what you are saying, but I quoted an end time prophecy about the Jews, and you are muddying the waters trying to pretend it's about anyone else except the Jews.

How do I know it is about the Jews?  Because the Bible tells us it is--house of David, house of David, house of David....and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

--Zech 12

Offline sheila

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #261 on: August 31, 2012, 06:35:59 PM »
mARK 12;35

    hOW IS

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #262 on: August 31, 2012, 06:39:22 PM »
Doug, I don't technically disagree with what you are saying, but I quoted an end time prophecy about the Jews, and you are muddying the waters trying to pretend it's about anyone else except the Jews.


IMO, the claim that Zech. 12:10 applies to ethnic Jews, and the assertion that the Jerusalem in this chapter is the earthly city, both tend to pollute the streams of living waters of the gospel, that flow from the holy city as foretold in Zech 14:8.

Isaiah said mount Zion and Jerusalem would be "established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills," [Isa. 2:2] and his prophecy was fulfilled, when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne. He represented the "mountain of the Lord's house," and the "house of David." He was established upon the throne of David, as Peter said that he was "made Christ," which means he fulfilled the promises about a future king on David's throne who would reign forever. John said, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." [1 John 2:22]

How do I know it is about the Jews?  Because the Bible tells us it is--house of David, house of David, house of David....and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


The "tabernacle of David" must be the same as the "house of David," and in the New Testament, James identified the tabernacle of David with the church, quoting Amos 9.

Acts 15
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

So, the promise of the spirit of grace and of supplications in Zech. 12:10 applies to the house of David, but this is the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, and the bride of Christ, those who are "without guile," not to ethnic Jews, not to those who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and that he reigns upon the throne of David in Jerusalem, over the twelve tribes of Israel.

According to the law of Moses, those who did not hear Jesus Christ, and who do not believe he was the promised Messiah, are cut off from Israel; they are "destroyed from among the people." [Acts 3:23] They are branches broken off from their tree. [Rom. 11:17-21] 

Dispensationalists may not believe this; they continue to insist that unbelieving Jews remain Israel, and so are deceived, IMO. Those who believe in Christ are "made nigh" to the promises and covenants of Israel by faith.

9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

--Zech 12

IMO, the "nations that come against Jerusalem" include worldly governments, political parties, churches, tens of thousands of sects and denominations, and movements such as dispensationalism and preterism; Paul said "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Eph. 6:12] The Spirit of grace and of supplications is the Holy Spirit that is promised to those who have faith in Christ. Misinterpreting the prophecy robs the church of this promise. The house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the prophecy must be understood in the light of the gospel, and the things revealed in the New Testament and in other prophecies. Since Jesus ascended to heaven, Jerusalem is raised up, and has become "Jerusalem which is above" and the "heavenly Jerusalem." The promise of the Spirit applies to the saints who are part of the "heavenly Jerusalem," not to a particular national or racial group.

Doug 

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #263 on: August 31, 2012, 06:53:37 PM »
well, I don't know what to say, Doug.  You are redefining everything to have to do with the church.  If you want to write your own definitions, not much I can do about that.  No the house of David is not the same thing as the tabernacle of David.  The church age will come to an end when the fulfillment of the Gentiles is achieved.  Paul tells us this, and that then, it becomes all about the Jews and that little country, Israel,  at the end of the age.  Let me remind you again--


28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
 
29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

--Rom 11

Offline sheila

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #264 on: August 31, 2012, 06:54:27 PM »
  WHEN dAVID WANTED TO BUILD A HOUSE FOR gOD...HE WAS TOLD THAT GOD WOULD BUILD HIM A HOUSE INSTEAD.

   THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD...HOW IS HE DAVID'S SON THEN

   THE KING PART5 OF KING-PREIST COME THROUGH THE LINEAGE OF DAVID...THE PREIST PART COME THROUGH FATHER IN NAMING CHRIST

  HIGH PREIST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHEZEDEK...

   IT IS FOR THIS REASON..THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD

   CHRIST JESUS IS SON OF GOD/SON OF DAVID..AND HE IS THE SON OF DAVID THAT BUILDS A HOUSE FOR GOD AND DAVID

  KING/PREIST

   HOUSE OF DAVID IS jESUS cHRIST SON OF DAVID....JESUS CHRIST,SON OF GOD IS HIGH PREIST FOREVER AFTER THE MANNER OF MELCHEZEDEK

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #265 on: August 31, 2012, 06:58:52 PM »
  WHEN dAVID WANTED TO BUILD A HOUSE FOR gOD...HE WAS TOLD THAT GOD WOULD BUILD HIM A HOUSE INSTEAD.

   THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD...HOW IS HE DAVID'S SON THEN

   THE KING PART5 OF KING-PREIST COME THROUGH THE LINEAGE OF DAVID...THE PREIST PART COME THROUGH FATHER IN NAMING CHRIST

  HIGH PREIST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHEZEDEK...

   IT IS FOR THIS REASON..THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD

   CHRIST JESUS IS SON OF GOD/SON OF DAVID..AND HE IS THE SON OF DAVID THAT BUILDS A HOUSE FOR GOD AND DAVID

  KING/PREIST

   HOUSE OF DAVID IS jESUS cHRIST SON OF DAVID....JESUS CHRIST,SON OF GOD IS HIGH PREIST FOREVER AFTER THE MANNER OF MELCHEZEDEK

Yes!  That's a very beautiful way to look at it.

Jesus is house of Judah.  He came to his own and his own received him not.  But their refusal of him meant the reconciliation of the world.

And, this, all because the birthright was split by Jacob--the sceptre went to Judah, and the promises to Ephraim.

And at the end of the age, he will hold them together as two sticks in one hand!

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #266 on: August 31, 2012, 08:44:36 PM »
well, I don't know what to say, Doug.  You are redefining everything to have to do with the church.  If you want to write your own definitions, not much I can do about that.  No the house of David is not the same thing as the tabernacle of David. 


Perhaps you could explain how they are different. Comments below on Acts 15:16 are from Christopher Wordsworth's commentary, p. 113.

τὴν σκηνὴν ... tugurium, tabernaculum, domum. The word is not palace, but tent, to show the low estate to which the house of David had been reduced, when raised up into the Universal Church by Christ: cf. Isa. liv. 2. The Tabernacle of David is the Church of God, to be raised up in the Seed of David, which is Christ, the Eternal Word, Who pitched His tent in our Nature (John i. 14) in the house of David, and so raised up for ever the tabernacle of our fallen humanity (OEcumen. p. 123, and compare Hengstenberg, Christol. iii. 227), and in Whom all Nations are blessed.

This is a remarkable interpretation of Hebrew Prophecies; an interpretation delivered at Jerusalem itself, by the Apostle St. James, the first Bishop of Jerusalem. And it declares that the true Restoration of the Tabernacle of David is to be found in the reception of the residue of the human family, and in the flowing-in of all Nations, whether Jew or Gentile, into the Church of Christ. Is not this a divine declaration on the true "Restoration of the Jews?"


I suppose the line of the kings of the dynasty of David, in the ancient kingdom of Judah was a "tent," as it was temporal, and fell into decay after the Jews were taken into captivity in Babylon, but God had promised to build David a "house," which was the more lasting structure, built on the foundation of Christ, which is the church. So if there is any difference in the terms, the "house" of David is the eternal kingdom of Christ, and the "tabernacle" was the temporal dynasty of kings from David to Zedekiah, whose sons were slain before his eyes, and his eyes were put out, and he was bound and carried to Babylon. [2 Kings 25:7]

The tabernacle was fallen down, and it was raised up by Christ, who ascended to heaven, and was given the throne of David, an eternal throne, reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel, in Jerusalem, which is the heavenly Jerusalem.

The saints are called "kings and priests," and "a royal priesthood," as they are included in the Jerusalem above, and reign with Christ, and offer up spiritual sacrifices. Peter said, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10]

Doug

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #267 on: September 01, 2012, 01:42:07 AM »
"Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones"
by John A.L. Riley, 1853-1945

1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

2. O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou Bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

3.Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Ye holy Twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints triumphant, raise the song,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

4. O friend, in gladness let us sing,
Supernal anthems echoing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
To God the Father, God the Son,
And God the Spirit, Three in One,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #475
Text: Ps. 148
Author: John A.L. Riley, 1906
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: Geistliche Kirchengesaeng
Town: Cologne, 1623



MUSIC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SHaa2hE7c


Molly I asked the spirit a very specific question, before I posted.
My Israel, Spain, New Zealand and USA post

The fact that you answered made me giggle.
The fact that you answered not quoting scriptures made the
hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I would like to ask you a few questions.
Is this the right venue?
I quoted scripture all through my answer to you.

Sure.

In a traditional wedding ceremony (i.e. where Jesus turns the water into wine)
Who's responsibility was it to provide the music?   

Doug

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #268 on: September 01, 2012, 04:19:54 AM »
An article that addresses the topic in the current discussion:

Two-House built on sand: Apostles did not believe that Gentiles were the "Lost Tribes of Israel"

Quote

This theology, in its most popular interpretation, makes a bold claim that most if not all of the Gentiles/Christians who believe in Yeshua (Jesus) are actually flesh and blood Israelites, i.e. literal relatives of the Jewish people and are in fact members of the so called "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel".


Doug

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #269 on: September 01, 2012, 07:29:13 AM »
I found this Messianic Jewish Site at your link Doug that argues the Gentiles are
the lost tribes of Israel.


 Gentiles as the People Called by His Name (Acts 15)

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15

Gentiles (along with Jews) are Israel (1 Peter2: 9-10)

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.  1 Peter 2

These are the words applied to Israel  by God in Ex. 19:5,6; Deut. 7:6; Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, and were first applied to the nation of Israel, who were chosen at the time to be a special possession, a holy people, a kingdom of priests, etc

The Gentile Corinthians Celebrated Passover: 1 Cor. 5:7-8


PROPHETICAL:


Isaiah 2:2-3; 56:6
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations [Gentiles] shall flow unto it.

3 And many people [a flock] shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.  Isa 2



Jeremiah 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; [ten tribes] After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.



Micah 4:2

2 And many nations [Gentiles] shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Zech 2; 8:22-23

Zech 2
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.

11 And many nations [;Gentiles] shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

12 And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.


Zech 8

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.



O.T.: There is a group of Old Testament texts which contain a prophecy regarding the lost House of Israel (the Northern Kingdom of Israel composed of the Northern tribes) that indicates that the House of Israel will suffer exile, identity loss, dispersion, but will eventually find restoration through the out-working of the New Covenant [some of the primary texts include but are not limited to Hosea 1:2-11; 14:5-6; Jeremiah 11:16-17; Amos 9:8-15 (LXX); Ezekiel 37:15-28; Jeremiah 31:31-37; Genesis 46:17-20].


N.T.: Peter, Paul, and James (of the Jerusalem Council) applied this Two House prophecy to the gentile Believers in Yeshua, apparently viewing the first-century gentile Believers as evidence that G-d was beginning to restore the lost House of Israel through the out-working of the New Covenant [Romans 9:23-26; Romans 11:13-27; Acts 15:13-18; 1 Peter 2:9].

[People] would try to argue that Torah differentiates between citizens and non-citizens and that gentiles are non-citizens. But then you just show them Ephesians 2 where it says gentiles are now politeia (citizens) in Israel. Still, many do not believe what seems to be so simple.


http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2012/08/ffoz-and-divine-invitation-part-ii.html



This one:

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.  Zech 8


Ten men --ten tribes?--out of all the nations shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew [Jesus]....

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #270 on: September 01, 2012, 07:54:04 AM »
Excerpts from Zechariah 8.



2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.  --Zechariah 8


8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.--Zechariah 8



"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, 0 house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong."--Zechariah 8:13

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.--Zechariah 8


"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." - Zechariah 8:23.




Offline reFORMer

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #271 on: September 01, 2012, 10:04:41 AM »
I've repeatedly tried to insert enough information here that you should be improved by understanding Daniels image with the head of gold and the world empires revealed by it was ended by the coming of the stone cut out without hands:  Jesus and His body; and, it is not re-imaged in the four beasts.  I'm convinced you're missing it by trying to imagine the rebirth of the Roman Empire which ended just as Daniel prophesied.  These four beasts in Daniel represent Great Britain, Russia, Germany and, the actual world government born between Hitler's death and the rebirth of Israel, The United Nations.  This rebirth of modern Israel parallels the location of the destruction of Ancient Israel amidst the Empires of the Image.  I feel bad for so many that seem enslaved to the recent, only about 100 year old traditions of dipsinsationalism.  We can grow, and change, "a little here and a little there..."

Maybe someone can relocate the short article on the topic that I posted a link to previously.  (Was it in A.S.K. ?)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 01:13:26 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Paul L

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #272 on: September 01, 2012, 02:38:33 PM »

Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'


"lost"  [sheep of the house of Israel]

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

destroy- about 30 times in KJ
perish-about 30 times in KJ
lost (lose) about 26 times in KJ

Even the King James writers translating from the Latin Vulgate were having a difficult time with this rendering. They at least got it right more times than they got it wrong by about 2 1/2 times. Incorrectly understanding reflexive forms also created a problem for them as it is for your selective use of it. Selective translating of this word is what Mormons & other British-Israelism groups do to justify rewriting scripture in an attempt to abscond with the covenant God gave only to Israel.





Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #273 on: September 01, 2012, 03:21:27 PM »

Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'


"lost"  [sheep of the house of Israel]

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

destroy- about 30 times in KJ
perish-about 30 times in KJ
lost (lose) about 26 times in KJ

Even the King James writers translating from the Latin Vulgate were having a difficult time with this rendering. They at least got it right more times than they got it wrong by about 2 1/2 times. Incorrectly understanding reflexive forms also created a problem for them as it is for your selective use of it. Selective translating of this word is what Mormons & other British-Israelism groups do to justify rewriting scripture in an attempt to abscond with the covenant God gave only to Israel.

I am not sent but unto

the destroyed sheep
the perished sheep
the dead sheep
the lost sheep

of the house of Israel.

Take your pick. I don't care.  Every translator I can find picks 'lost.'

Offline Molly

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Re: Prophecy
« Reply #274 on: September 01, 2012, 04:14:44 PM »
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

--John 10



Ezekiel 34:11-13

11 "For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country.



1 Peter 2:25

25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.



Acts 28:28

28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.


John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me



Eze 37

24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.



19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.  Eze 37
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 04:36:09 PM by Molly »